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Wood Elves Speculation - Campaign Map

causeyriccauseyric Registered Users Posts: 5
I know this topic has been discussed quite frequently, but I still haven't seen a consensus on how we think CA will implement the WE on the campaign map - or how people would like them to.

Adding them as simply a Horde faction would be disappointing to me. Lore-wise they reside in Athel Loren, and defend it from outsiders. So they would need to, at the very least, have settlements to maintain in that portion of the campaign map.

I guess the real debate is how they would work when they leave Athel Loren - would they be able to occupy human/vampire settlements?

Perhaps they could only occupy settlements adjacent to Athel Loren, and it spreads the Forest into that region as you take it. That might be stretching the lore a bit too much, but I feel like the last two factions added (Chaos Warriors and Beastmen) were Horde factions that raze everything they encounter. It would be refreshing to have a new faction that can spread their civilization and shape the world to their liking. For me, building a vast empire was always the best part of the campaign map in Total War games.

Curious as to what you guys think! Maybe there's a creative solution out there we're missing.


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Comments

  • SephirexSephirex Right outside your windowRegistered Users Posts: 1,028
    edited September 2016
    I'm down with spreading forest, but something unique would be even better. You could have them stay inside the forest, but they need to complete certain missions or destroy certain cities to upgrade their tech or allow new units. Also give them a bad economy to ensure they're razing.

    Actually I take it back. I'm tired of razing/raiding. Spreading forest is fine.

    Anything but another wandering horde.

  • GaussiaGaussia Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,260
    Lore Wise I'd say that making a good occupations system for the Wood Elfs will be the hardest faction. I'm currious how they will solve it. Not just for the Wood Elfs but it might also say some thing about CA's ambitions for the other races.
  • herjan1987herjan1987 Registered Users Posts: 644
    Gaussia said:

    Lore Wise I'd say that making a good occupations system for the Wood Elfs will be the hardest faction. I'm currious how they will solve it. Not just for the Wood Elfs but it might also say some thing about CA's ambitions for the other races.

    Tomb Kings, Lizardman and Wood elves are trio that has problems with expansion. Other races dont have this trouble.
    Team Dwarfes
    Team Brettonnia
    Team Tomb Kings
    Team High Elf
    Team Averland

    Leitdorf for Emperor!

    Original Regiments of Renown and Dogs of War
    Make Marious Leitdorf a playable Legendary Lord
    Warhammer Fantasy Novels in Black Library
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    edited September 2016
    In my mind the Asrai are a horde and the forest spirits a human type settlement faction. Assuming both together in one wood elf faction it is just a matter of balancing them.

    1) low forest atrition- ment to slow down normal expansion like with the VC but also can be used to have troops in woods without forest corruption.

    2) world root stance - basically a combination of fast march and beast path you will need it for the missions all over the place.

    3) muster Asrai stance - ambush and recruit that has access to the Asrai it can train, this makes it possible to get a lot of units miles from home and be reasonablysafe doing it. Note forest spirits are only avalible in home regions and possible things like hawkriders.

    4) Asrai builds limited to mmilitary and support - the army shouldn't make any money and unlike other hordes no reduction in upkeep, this should make it clear while the army could be off fighting grimgor AL is still the most important thing for the wood elves.

    5) forest spirit buildings defenseman and green - while one or two will be needed in red for the units the rest should be focused on defended and supporting the Asrai armies, all of these buildings will need growth and the main buildings would have a very small garrison to really hold back rapid expansion. One I've been toying with is to allow some builds to require a certain amount of forest % to be built.

    6) reduced income from trade - this is what happens when you shoot traders

    7) tech tree with two main sections - picture a tree the top part is Asrai and army tech the bottom part is forest spirit and settlement , each time you complete a technology it increases the time for the next one by 10% similarto the beastmen but also decreases the other tree by 5%. All about balance.

    8) wild hunt - either with an event or some form of filling bar, one of your armies will become a wild hunt it then has 5 turns to sack and loot as much as possible, you can attack anyone without declaring war and only get minor diplomacy ppenalties you get triple the income from this armies activities(no raiding stance?) And the army has a huge boost to leadership and melee attack. The idea is this will be one of the key ways to get early and mid game money take put threats without the full war and attached should be the bulk of the quests.


    All in all I'm trying to male it so you will have to rely on less armies than a settled faction and while they can zip off sack the VC and be back in a turn or three the low levelledsettlements are in need of protection and you might have to make some key minor settlements full yellow before you can leave them totally alone.
    The quickest way to eexpanded should be getting money via sacking and the wild hunt bonuses and building growth buildings(which also effect local Asrai armies) then defending and moving on.
    Post edited by GRAY_HAT on
    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • epic_159733007811cHJwei4epic_159733007811cHJwei4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    edited September 2016
    Yea, if they end up being hordes, I won't be buying it until it's on sale.

    I don't mind hordes at first but eventually you hit critical mass and it's just too easy. Opposite problem for when you decide to not play that race, as a horde they are basically wiped out early and non-existent. Beastmen I thought would be far more impactful but I barely ever notice them and playing as them is very easy.

    Someone (I forget who so please feel free to claim credit) suggested that Wood Elves should be the "ultimate turtle faction". You should have to defend heavily while ranging out to complete tasks needed for victory. I quite liked this idea. I feel like conquering much outside of Athel Loren will be odd and this will definitely require beefed up beastmen spawns or some other mechanic to keep a Wood Elf player engaged in the wider world but if pulled off it could provide a very different take on the "expand constantly" mindset of most TW factions.

    EDIT: I really like @grayhat's Wild Hunt idea.
  • boyfightsboyfights Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,023
    my uncle at CA says they changed wode elves so now instead of living in the wood they are in a race with beastmen to see who can blast the whole world to bits before the other guy does it!! i got to play it, you can't come over and try it though because my uncle delteted it and now he lives in china and works at nitendo. on summer vacation i went to his house and played nitnendo
    boyfights you are always here to confirmate every spark of originality
    or reason burns or acid bruises anyone,
    stop your gladiator love for agressions.
  • herjan1987herjan1987 Registered Users Posts: 644
    My biggest question where they will send Orion to get his artifacts....
    Team Dwarfes
    Team Brettonnia
    Team Tomb Kings
    Team High Elf
    Team Averland

    Leitdorf for Emperor!

    Original Regiments of Renown and Dogs of War
    Make Marious Leitdorf a playable Legendary Lord
    Warhammer Fantasy Novels in Black Library
  • PrayPray Registered Users Posts: 1,514
    If Wood elves be hoard , no point to protect Athel Loren anymore .

    suck !!
  • causeyriccauseyric Registered Users Posts: 5
    The Wild Hunt should be a cool way to pull the WE out of Athel Loren, and I like the idea of a reduced diplomatic penalty for it too since it would be pretty annoying to build up good relations with a faction only to be ordered to declare war on them.

    Also, are there any other forests on the current map they could inhabit? Or perhaps there are some they could potentially add in that make sense lore-wise?
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered Users Posts: 178
    edited September 2016

    Gaussia said:

    Lore Wise I'd say that making a good occupations system for the Wood Elfs will be the hardest faction. I'm currious how they will solve it. Not just for the Wood Elfs but it might also say some thing about CA's ambitions for the other races.

    Tomb Kings, Lizardman and Wood elves are trio that has problems with expansion. Other races dont have this trouble.
    For Tomb Kings, there's always been a "Will he or won't he?" for Settra deciding to end Nehekhara's isolationism and start conquering the living, I assume that their campaign will begin with a certain someone and his raven convincing him to finally go forth and conquer.

    On Lizardmen, I suspect they will come with/after Skaven, and Clan Pestilene will be the primary antagonist they fight over settlements with, at least to start the campaign.

    Anyway, to the OP, the map/settlement/mechanics stuff I would like to see:

    Athel Loren Expanded: Athel Loren becomes an Empire TW-like map that contains 3-5 Wood Elf provinces (or rather, Elven provinces *winkwink*) that the various WE factions occupy from the start. Said Athel Loren map should also have at least 1 human province and 1 Hold Province so other races can have a presence and/or reason to go into Athel Loren despite all the good reasons not to.

    Hidden Outposts: Rather than traditional provinces, Wood Elves can find/colonize special outposts in many of the forests of the Old World, allowing them to spread their influence beyond the borders of Athel Loren in their neverending duty to protect the forest and preserve the Weave. These special settlements would have limited building options, but are a safe haven for any Wood Elf army, hiding them from other races and giving casualty replenishment even if the host nation is at war. They also have a unique building chain that lets them project anti-corruption to the province it resides and eventually nearby provinces as well. Stealth is their main defense however, because these outposts can never build walls.

    Purify: When successfully attacking a settlement, or interacting with ruins, Wood Elves will get a special option that lets them purify the lands. This will raze any settlement that currently exists and replace the ruins with a special grove that reduces corruption in the province as well as the cost of Order (Empire, Bretonnia and Dwarfs) races to colonize that settlement. The AI should also be tweaked to be more willing to colonized groves than they currently do with normal ruins.

    The Weave: First Major mechanic for forcing Wood Elves outside of Athel Loren, they get a Grudge Bar, but instead of tracking wrongs against the Wood Elves, it tracks the corrupting influence of Beatmen, WoC, the VC, Norscans and any future race that has a corruption mechanic, as well as # of ruins continent-wide and any foreign army in Athel Loren, regardless of origin. As Chaos, Death and Destruction across the Old World (and especially, should the unthinkable occur, Athel Loren) goes up, Wood Elf morale, public order, and diplomatic relations begins to suffer. Purifying razed settlements, fighting the forces of Chaos and Death, and raising outposts to control the spread of corruption is essential to keeping the meter low.

    Wild Hunts: Second major mechanic for getting the elves out of the woods. Every X number of turns (thinking 16-32 or so) a Wild Hunt is called. A settlement or army, ususally well-defended or manned (but never a capital of a major empire, or the last settlement of an Order faction) is set as a target, with a time limit. If the Wild Hunt is fulfilled, riches and buffs for the empire and the army that participated. If it fails, you instead get empire-wide penalties for several turns plus a hit to Weave (you are denying the natural order of the forest/Wood Elves, after all) that won't go away until the next successful Wild Hunt. Thing is, ANY non-WE faction's settlement or army/horde can be made a target, even allies (though it should be weighted so enemy and neutral targets are much more likely, with some special rules to keep it from permanently wrecking your ability to make friends) so you have to balance preserving the Weave with preserving you friendships.

    On top of this, Wood Elf armies would get a moving Ambush stance like Beastmen, as well as have a Worldroots movement option, that either works like underway/beastpaths, or lets them instantly move between any settlement or Outpost they own, with a cooldown of multiple turns and restrictions based on size/buildings and/or if either settlement is besieged or not.
  • herjan1987herjan1987 Registered Users Posts: 644
    Foefaller said:

    Gaussia said:

    Lore Wise I'd say that making a good occupations system for the Wood Elfs will be the hardest faction. I'm currious how they will solve it. Not just for the Wood Elfs but it might also say some thing about CA's ambitions for the other races.

    Tomb Kings, Lizardman and Wood elves are trio that has problems with expansion. Other races dont have this trouble.
    For Tomb Kings, there's always been a "Will he or won't he?" for Settra deciding to end Nehekhara's isolationism and start conquering the living, I assume that their campaign will begin with a certain someone and his raven convincing him to finally go forth and conquer.

    On Lizardmen, I suspect they will come with/after Skaven, and Clan Pestilene will be the primary antagonist they fight over settlements with, at least to start the campaign.

    Yeah, but once Lustria is conqured there not much left to do for the Lizardman.
    Team Dwarfes
    Team Brettonnia
    Team Tomb Kings
    Team High Elf
    Team Averland

    Leitdorf for Emperor!

    Original Regiments of Renown and Dogs of War
    Make Marious Leitdorf a playable Legendary Lord
    Warhammer Fantasy Novels in Black Library
  • FeiLongFeiLong Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 57
    What if they came up with a complete new thing. Alliance Buildings.

    So the elfs have their starting area, and in this area they build regular cities per say. But as Elves are not really a aggressive conquering race, what if you allowed them to make treaties with certain nations, an in these treaties they would be allowed to build up a support structure in that allies specified city.

    Example.

    Next to the elf is a sub human faction with 2 provinces each having 3 areas.
    The elf and the Human faction work out a alliance and the Elfs negotiate to be allowed to build "bases" in the area of 1 province. Now these 3 cities from the one province have a regular build menu available to the elves. In this they can build special base structures. They also get a garrison for this areas. Now if a enemy attack the city, you have the option to support the defense of the city, and the land around the city gives you replenishment and such just like it was your own.

    this would allow the elfs not to conquer per say the map, but to expand their influence through the use of diplomacy and bases through the wide areas of the map. Of course special areas that include allot of wood would be conquerable to them.

    Just a idea.

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered Users Posts: 178
    edited September 2016

    Foefaller said:

    Gaussia said:

    Lore Wise I'd say that making a good occupations system for the Wood Elfs will be the hardest faction. I'm currious how they will solve it. Not just for the Wood Elfs but it might also say some thing about CA's ambitions for the other races.

    Tomb Kings, Lizardman and Wood elves are trio that has problems with expansion. Other races dont have this trouble.
    For Tomb Kings, there's always been a "Will he or won't he?" for Settra deciding to end Nehekhara's isolationism and start conquering the living, I assume that their campaign will begin with a certain someone and his raven convincing him to finally go forth and conquer.

    On Lizardmen, I suspect they will come with/after Skaven, and Clan Pestilene will be the primary antagonist they fight over settlements with, at least to start the campaign.

    Yeah, but once Lustria is conqured there not much left to do for the Lizardman.
    There are still the Dark Elves. They might not be mortal enemies/lands to conquer, but they're probably the most common enemy for the Lizardmen after the Skaven, and I wouldn't be shocked if at least the Long Campaign required wiping them out.

    Plus I suspect The Great Plan will probably get a mechanic similar to what Grudges (especially the random grudges) are now and how I hope Wild Hunts will be, missions you have to complete or suffer penalties, with the chance that the target is someone you didn't really want to fight.
  • boyfightsboyfights Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,023


    Yeah, but once Lustria is conqured there not much left to do for the Lizardman.

    another reason to add southlands B)

    lizardmen should also be allowed to occupy athel loren, and be programmed to do so aggressively
    boyfights you are always here to confirmate every spark of originality
    or reason burns or acid bruises anyone,
    stop your gladiator love for agressions.
  • MoritasgusMoritasgus Registered Users Posts: 744
    Foefaller said:

    Foefaller said:

    Gaussia said:

    Lore Wise I'd say that making a good occupations system for the Wood Elfs will be the hardest faction. I'm currious how they will solve it. Not just for the Wood Elfs but it might also say some thing about CA's ambitions for the other races.

    Tomb Kings, Lizardman and Wood elves are trio that has problems with expansion. Other races dont have this trouble.
    For Tomb Kings, there's always been a "Will he or won't he?" for Settra deciding to end Nehekhara's isolationism and start conquering the living, I assume that their campaign will begin with a certain someone and his raven convincing him to finally go forth and conquer.

    On Lizardmen, I suspect they will come with/after Skaven, and Clan Pestilene will be the primary antagonist they fight over settlements with, at least to start the campaign.

    Yeah, but once Lustria is conqured there not much left to do for the Lizardman.
    There are still the Dark Elves. They might not be mortal enemies/lands to conquer, but they're probably the most common enemy for the Lizardmen after the Skaven, and I wouldn't be shocked if at least the Long Campaign required wiping them out.

    Plus I suspect The Great Plan will probably get a mechanic similar to what Grudges (especially the random grudges) are now and how I hope Wild Hunts will be, missions you have to complete or suffer penalties, with the chance that the target is someone you didn't really want to fight.
    The Dwarfs already have this through the grudge mechanic which often forces them to fight or do diplomatic actions against factions you'd rather be at peace with especially concerning retaliating to agent actions.
    So i can't see forcing you to fight someone you like being a problem.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,870
    pray said:

    If Wood elves be hoard , no point to protect Athel Loren anymore .

    suck !!

    This.

    I will also not buy them if they're a horde.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    @FeiLong are you talking about symbiotic settlements?
    An interesting idea but much more 6e than 8e interpretation of wood elves, the wood elves don't share anymore, they may decide to not shoot you but that's about as friendly as they get. If you find your self with a wood elf colony in the nearby woods it's best to burn the woods down.



    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • boyfightsboyfights Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,023
    grayhat said:

    If you find your self with a wood elf colony in the nearby woods it's best to burn the woods down.

    Can't argue with that
    boyfights you are always here to confirmate every spark of originality
    or reason burns or acid bruises anyone,
    stop your gladiator love for agressions.
  • SteppelordSteppelord Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,315
    Good seeing so many people against hordes. CA will really be down the wrong path if they do that.
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    grayhat said:

    In my mind the asari are a horde

    Well I don't know, they had their homeworld destroyed, sure, but they're very much a settled people with an immense infrastructure and not even the Reapers managed to destroy that.
    They have many places to claim as their new home, or even the resources to rebuild their old, sounds like something they would do...can't really claim that they're in the same situation as the Quarians, after all.

    :tongue:



    Anyway, on topic, I think wood elves would do well being different from the rest. Rather than hack and burn horde or the conquering nation, I hope to see them settled in Athel Loren, as they should be...and little else. Honestly, an expanding Wood Elf faction just sounds weird to me, that's like the very opposite of who they are.
    However, that doesn't mean they won't be an actor in the map. Across the map there's these points next to forests with a little stone circle, I hope those will turn into exits from the World Roots they have so they can appear in many places on the map.
    Why would they do that? Well perhaps, for one, they need to send out their wild hunt somewhere? It's not for fun it's sent out every year, it's part of their cycle of life, a need to maintain the balance of their realm.
    For second, maybe corruption can go through them? So if various provinces throughout the map gets sick from vampires and chaos...so will the homes of the Wood Elves, prompting them to try and stop it.
    I know it goes against the fiber of what we do with total war factions...but so did Hordes, something different can be made again, and warhammer is surely the place to do it. :)
    Don't worry.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,065
    edited September 2016
    People need to seriously stop with the whole "But XYZ factions don't expand in the lore!" Yeah, and the Empire never conquered Brettonia either or razed Norsca, and the Dwarfs have a snowballs chance in hell to reclaim the Karaz Ankor, but guess what, this is a Video game BASED on the lore, not the Lore Simulator. If the lore compromises fun then guess what, ignore it! So what the Lizardmen should't have interest outside of Lustria, or WE outside of Athel Loren, or TK's outside of Nehekara(for the most part), either ignore it and have fun or better yet, find an explanation that's at least Lore Friendly. Say Lizardmen decide that the Great Plan calls for action against the world at last, taking the fight to chaos and occupying territory. Maybe Durthu and Drycha get off their asses and decide the time is now to spread the forest. Or would you rather WE and Lizardmen just sit inside their forests and raze territory all day, as if we don't have enough factions that raze land already?


    On a side note, Settra has shown interest in bringing about a new age of Nehekharan expansionism.


    EDIT: changed some things about my intro, seemed a bit childish in hindsight
    Post edited by Krunch on
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    @Setrus, this is the risk of posting late at night (Asari -> Asrai)
    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Registered Users Posts: 1,001
    @Setrus I also really like to entertain the idea of the WE being a faction centered around balance, so as I have said before, I think linking the Wild Hunt (maybe in tandem with the World Roots) to weakening the biggest factions before they become predominant on the campaign map is an interesting idea. That could be archieved by having the WE focus on scouting and having some kind of "paranoia meter" (does that fit the lore?) in the same vein as the Dwarves' Grudge meter which fills up if one faction threatens to become to strong in terms of their military.

    The main problem imo would be finding a victory condition for them. It could be something along the lines of having weakened all factions under a certain threshold that have a trait like "aggressive" in their diplomacy traits, but I don't know how difficult that is to get right.
  • oliverpmasonoliverpmason Registered Users Posts: 1,995
    Setrus said:

    grayhat said:

    In my mind the asari are a horde

    Well I don't know, they had their homeworld destroyed, sure, but they're very much a settled people with an immense infrastructure and not even the Reapers managed to destroy that.
    They have many places to claim as their new home, or even the resources to rebuild their old, sounds like something they would do...can't really claim that they're in the same situation as the Quarians, after all.

    :tongue:



    Anyway, on topic, I think wood elves would do well being different from the rest. Rather than hack and burn horde or the conquering nation, I hope to see them settled in Athel Loren, as they should be...and little else. Honestly, an expanding Wood Elf faction just sounds weird to me, that's like the very opposite of who they are.
    However, that doesn't mean they won't be an actor in the map. Across the map there's these points next to forests with a little stone circle, I hope those will turn into exits from the World Roots they have so they can appear in many places on the map.
    Why would they do that? Well perhaps, for one, they need to send out their wild hunt somewhere? It's not for fun it's sent out every year, it's part of their cycle of life, a need to maintain the balance of their realm.
    For second, maybe corruption can go through them? So if various provinces throughout the map gets sick from vampires and chaos...so will the homes of the Wood Elves, prompting them to try and stop it.
    I know it goes against the fiber of what we do with total war factions...but so did Hordes, something different can be made again, and warhammer is surely the place to do it. :)
    That little stone circle is a good spot. I like that idea.

    I also hope that they have something to do in Drakwald.
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    Krunch said:

    People need to seriously **** off with the whole "BBB-BUT THE FACTIONS DON"T EXPAND IN THE LORE!"

    Yet I won't, how troublesome. :)
    Krunch said:


    Yeah, and the Empire never conquered Brettonia either or razed Norsca, and the Dwarfs have a snowballs chance in hell to reclaim the Karaz Ankor, but guess what, this is a Video game BASED on the lore, not the Lore Simulator. If the lore compromises fun then guess what, ignore it!

    Who said being defensive around Athel Loren and keep it safe would be boring? It's a new kind of gameplay, a new kind of campaign, if anything it would add diversity to the campaign experience rather than yet another conquering nation or horde, no?
    Krunch said:


    So what the Lizardmen should't have interest outside of Lustria,

    Lizardmen have plenty of interest outside of Lustria. The great plan demands that several races are...relocated. Skaven and Greenskins have no place and must be destroyed, Dwarfs must only be in the mountains, humans should be pushed back to the stone age, Chaos must be destroyed or at least contained, Elves only live in Ulthuan, doesn't matter which elves, but any living elsewhere must go... :)
    Krunch said:


    or WE outside of Athel Loren, or TK's outside of Nehekara(for the most part), either ignore it and have fun or better yet, find an explanation that's at least Lore Friendly.

    Yes, you can go that way, it's a toooottally valid way to go. Just like an RPG player should find a reason for his Character to do the DM's campaign, not refuse based on some character-trait. :)
    However...I find it much more fun with the idea of staying lore friendly and using it as a way to invent new ways to play the game. I mean if we stayed the way we once were we wouldn't have had naval battles, regional occupation, hordes, provinces and so on, creating new things can create new gameplay opportunities. :)
    As I mentioned before, if your land has a lot of connections to various areas of the land via the World Roots, it's not just a danger that you might be invaded, but the risk of several places bringing in corruption could well taint your lands completely. This forces the wood elf player, with limited resources, to try and bring an end to this through ambush and surprise assaults on the cause of the corruption.
    The Wild Hunt may well create tensions with neighbouring states as it rampages around, and so you're forced to defend against it via a mix of warfare and diplomacy. It's not inventing something entirely new, but it's sure a shakeup from the normal "conquer land, grow stronger" thing or the "rampage, make everyone weaker" type of gameplay. :)
    Krunch said:


    Say Lizardmen decide that the Great Plan calls for action against the world at last, taking the fight to chaos and occupying territory. Maybe Durthu and Drycha get off their asses and decide the time is now to spread the forest. Or would you rather WE and Lizardmen just sit inside their forests and raze territory all day, as if we don't have enough factions that raze land already?

    Or, as mentioned above, say Lizardmen decide that the great plan calls for action against the world without it necessary being occupation? Like above, suddenly it's lore friendly, different AND gives you a need to go out and fight?
    Certainly some razing, yes, but at the same time, razing might not be the best option. If you as WE raze some province connected to the World Roots you're just inviting not only vampires but also makes so any beastmen or chaos character/army that's around creates massive corruption.
    I'd love to see CA experiment a bit with Warhammer rather than playing it conservatively, to be honest. :)

    @Setrus I also really like to entertain the idea of the WE being a faction centered around balance, so as I have said before, I think linking the Wild Hunt (maybe in tandem with the World Roots) to weakening the biggest factions before they become predominant on the campaign map is an interesting idea. That could be archieved by having the WE focus on scouting and having some kind of "paranoia meter" (does that fit the lore?) in the same vein as the Dwarves' Grudge meter which fills up if one faction threatens to become to strong in terms of their military.

    The main problem imo would be finding a victory condition for them. It could be something along the lines of having weakened all factions under a certain threshold that have a trait like "aggressive" in their diplomacy traits, but I don't know how difficult that is to get right.

    Me too, as mentioned in the army book, when the forest isn't in balance, things go bad in a hurry. :lol:
    Paranoia meter? Sounds like an interesting idea, I too have toyed with something like that, though mostly on balance like that if you don't send out the wild hunt and do a certain amount of damage, the balance goes off, but if you do...well then other nations will get angry...not sure.

    Man, so right, I can imagine a few like wiping out Chaos, Beastmen and VC would be there, as would maybe building some top-level structure in their lands, a strong and friendly Bretonnia (not as easy as it sounds depending on wild hunt...man if, that thing would be AI controlled... :lol: ) and such.
    grayhat said:

    @Setrus, this is the risk of posting late at night (Asari -> Asrai)

    To be fair, the Asari are cooler. ;)
    Don't worry.
  • MedievilsteveMedievilsteve Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 158
    The problem with the whole can't expand thing is that it limits your faction size, and therefore the maximum size of army you can field, and makes it just a matter of time till one of the AI factions gains territorial supremacy and sends 15 or more stacks to wipe out your 2 or 3. This just doesn't make a viable gameplay option.
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767

    The problem with the whole can't expand thing is that it limits your faction size, and therefore the maximum size of army you can field, and makes it just a matter of time till one of the AI factions gains territorial supremacy and sends 15 or more stacks to wipe out your 2 or 3. This just doesn't make a viable gameplay option.

    Hence a strong and friendly Bretonnia as an objective, very much as the Wood Elves do it in the lore? Heck, or whoever else wants to join your alliance as you aid them vs various threats.
    Besides, that kind of depends on how much their buildings cost and give. :)
    Don't worry.
  • MedievilsteveMedievilsteve Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 158
    edited September 2016
    Setrus said:

    The problem with the whole can't expand thing is that it limits your faction size, and therefore the maximum size of army you can field, and makes it just a matter of time till one of the AI factions gains territorial supremacy and sends 15 or more stacks to wipe out your 2 or 3. This just doesn't make a viable gameplay option.

    Hence a strong and friendly Bretonnia as an objective, very much as the Wood Elves do it in the lore? Heck, or whoever else wants to join your alliance as you aid them vs various threats.
    Besides, that kind of depends on how much their buildings cost and give. :)
    The thing with this from a gameplay point of view is that once you've maxed all your settlements and maxed all your armies you only really have two options on what you do next. Either turtle, prop up your allies and hope they are strong enough to do the heavy lifting for you, or go on the warpath and sack everything in sight to get the money to raise and support more troops. Neither strikes me as being close to satisfactory. The former option has you basically acting as a manipulative vassal to a greater power, this might be more lore compliant and strategically and politically intriguing, but it is not going to provide easily accessible exciting gameplay that will appeal to a wide audience, and what happens when your ally runs out of enemies and turns on you? The latter has you acting as a destruction race like chaos or beastmen, dependent on sacking and looting for the money to fund your troops, this really is something the game needs to not happen.

    From a gameplay point of view expansion simply must be possible in order for the wood elves to be both viable as a faction and fun to play. If you can't build and grow a strong empire then the masses won't be happy and that means less revenue and bad reviews.
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    I think the "masses" will be just fine with having something a little bit different. We have so far 4 races which can expand and conquer, as well as 2 who are hordes. A single race that doesn't do either of those things, not in a bigger way, at least. (*cough* Wild Hunt *cough* )
    So out of 7, 1 would be different than the standard? That's a pretty small number, and will only grow smaller even without considering faction unlock mods and such.
    I mean the "masses", well, many on the forum at least, rebelled against Regional Occupation before, but how large are the complaints now? Some got the mod to take that out, vast majority plays with it. So if that works, why not a more extreme version? I hear some wanting to play Norse, but Norse can't conquer anything outside their starting areas, but that doesn't matter because that's part of the Norse factions and people want to play Norse. :)

    As for the gameplay perspective paragraph, beyond what I've already written, one could argue the other sedentary factions have the same issue, only larger spaces to take before reaching the limit. Yet often before they finish that, they face a massive Chaos invasion, they get the age of peace when people turn on one another, they generally have some form of challenge coming their way. For Wood Elves, such issues would only be heightened, which I'm not sure why it would be seen as a bad thing, it sounds like a fun challenge.
    And yes, your ally might turn on you...hence why the Wood Elves liked to have the Bretonnians and Orcs fight it out before. So either you create a number of allies to keep a check and balance so no one dares turning on the other, or you shift around, always aiding the underdog in various wars and so keep them individually weak.
    To me, that sounds more fun than bow-loving humans - possibly with renamed corruption - with pointy ears, something different. :)
    Don't worry.
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered Users Posts: 178
    Krunch said:

    People need to seriously **** off with the whole "BBB-BUT THE FACTIONS DON"T EXPAND IN THE LORE!" Yeah, and the Empire never conquered Brettonia either or razed Norsca, and the Dwarfs have a snowballs chance in hell to reclaim the Karaz Ankor, but guess what, this is a Video game BASED on the lore, not the Lore Simulator. If the lore compromises fun then guess what, ignore it! So what the Lizardmen should't have interest outside of Lustria, or WE outside of Athel Loren, or TK's outside of Nehekara(for the most part), either ignore it and have fun or better yet, find an explanation that's at least Lore Friendly. Say Lizardmen decide that the Great Plan calls for action against the world at last, taking the fight to chaos and occupying territory. Maybe Durthu and Drycha get off their asses and decide the time is now to spread the forest. Or would you rather WE and Lizardmen just sit inside their forests and raze territory all day, as if we don't have enough factions that raze land already?


    On a side note, Settra has shown interest in bringing about a new age of Nehekharan expansionism.

    I think why that sediment sticks around for the Wood Elves isn't simply because they've never expanded in the lore, but also be they never TRIED to do so either.

    Empire has tried to take parts of Bretonnia, and Bretonnia has tried to do the same back. Vampire Counts have tried three separate times to take over the Empire and their influnice extends to other human lands as well. While almost never successful, and often too busy simply holding on what they have, the Dwarfs have attempted to reclaim lost Holds from the Greenskins, just as the Greenskins have been known to take over Dwarf Holds. and there have been more than one disastrous attempt by most of the above to wipe out the Norscan tribes as well.

    Wood Elves have never once tried to invade anyone, ever. There has never been a Wood Elf army who attempted to conquer parts of Bretonnia or the Empire, never a Wood Elf Lord who wanted to settle his people anywhere that did no belong to Elves of one sort or another, never an attempt to take over a Bretonnian castletown or Dwarf Hold to lord over the denizens there. And unlike Settra, they have never once expressed the desire to do any of that as well. Even at times like the Season of Retribution when the entire forest went super violent and vindictive thanks to Ariel dabbling in True Dhar they have never tried to expand their nation/forest.

    That's why you keep seeing hordes mentioned (even though almost noone wants them) and why people keep talking about making Athel Loren it's own map or added new settlements/outposts in places that make sense for the Wood Elves. Because the idea of Wood Elves expanding their realm is almost as counter to the lore as the Beastmen starting their own bleeping towns.
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