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Cavalry units and Anti large.

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  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    busa27 said:

    I think we are confusing CA staff saying wrong things when the current cavalry balance is PRETTY good and faithful to TT stats. The only issues we have are BBBU being extremely OP vs cavalry, DGKs Halberds overperforming a bit vs cavalry and all Greenskins cavalry units underperforming vs light infantry. All other cavalry units are pretty well balanced, I really would like that someone could give me an example of some cavalry units overperforming/underperforming strongly without taking into account GS cavalry units and DGKs Halberds.

    If Blood Knights get fixed and go back to the way they were then BBBU, DGK H, and Blood Knights will all be over-performing against cavalry. Those are all the anti-large cavalry units.
  • busa27busa27 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,744
    edited November 2016
    @salsicha

    I have made some test today and the problem isn't Bonus vs Large. I have removed the bonus vs large from BBBU and they are still extremely strong vs Knights of the Realm and Empire Knights. In this game what really matters is AP damage and armor and this is the reason because BBBU are as OP as they are.

    Do you really think that Frenzy bug fixed will make Blood Knights much better?, let's see, what gives frenzy:

    +12%Weapon Damage (Regular Damage): it only means +3 non-AP damage what is nothing vs armored units.
    + Melee Attack: ok it's a decent buff but not as great as you think.
    + 8% Charge Bonus: decent buff but again, not as great as you think.
    Immune to psychology: It doesn't help vs Grail Knighs, Chaos Knights, etc.

    So, Blood Knights have these stats:

    - 36 Weapon Damage (25 non-AP +11 AP damage) + 3 non AP damage = 39 Weapon Damage (28 non-AP +11 AP damage)
    - 30 Melee Attack + 8 = 38 Melee Attack
    - 70 Charge Bonus + 6 = 76 Charge Bonus.

    Now look at this video where I increase these stats to Blood Knights to simulate frenzy skill always UP:



    As you can see, I not even disable the frenzy skill because I don't remember the name of the table where I can assign skills to the units, so Blood Knights have better stats in my video than they will have after frenzy bug gets fixed.

    BBBU are OP only because they do high AP damage and because they are decently armored. On the other hand, DGKs Halberds are slightly overperforming vs cavalry because they are getting an insane bonus vs large combined with pretty good AP damage stats. The only problem here is 2 units overperforming and not bonus vs large being an issue.
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Registered Users Posts: 2,607
    I'm not sure Reiksguard should be worth 1200 given how much better Knights of the Burning Sun are, but yeah somewhere in that 1100ish range.
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  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Registered Users Posts: 441
    edited November 2016
    Sounds like transferring some AP damage to normal damage may be the fix then for the BBBU. They might need a slight Buffs to MA or MD if that makes them even worse vs infantry, which they are bad at already. And you could leave the anti large alone.

    I mean, their combat stats are awful. I was wondering if maybe there was a bug causing them to be so good vs other cavalry since they have the MA and MD of crappy light cavalry.
  • busa27busa27 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,744
    edited November 2016
    @TheRainbowDwarf

    Yep, I did some tests reducing the BBBU AP damage to 18 (from 22) and increasing their normal damage to 16 (from 8) and it seems ok. They would perform worse vs heavy cavalry while perform better vs light infantry but still continue being extremely good vs DGKs Halberds. I think it isn't possible to balance the battle between DGks Halberds vs BBBU without making BBBU useless vs all other cavalry units, so I think we have to accept that BBBU will always destroy DGKs Halberds. Problem is BBBU is the only shock cavalry unit in the game with decent armor + high AP damage + Antilarge Bonus + 45 models per unit.

    -4 AP damage and +8 non-AP damage would solve the issue vs most of the heavy cavalry units (except DGKs) while this change would make them better vs light infantry BUT, it also would make BBBU better vs light cavalry (f.e Beastmen and Wood Elves cavalry). Maybe the best solution is reducing a bit of some stats and not a considerable nerf to AP damage, CA did it with Greatswords and the result was great.

    BTW, testing other GS cavalry units, I could see that they are pretty good vs heavy infantry. The only issue with GS cavalry is dealing vs light infantry, all GS cav units are pretty bad vs light infantry.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    edited November 2016
    @busa27

    Yeah, I did my own test. Blood Knights seem to be in a good spot. Your explanation probably explains why the RoR BBBU are so good too.
  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    Why do boar boy big unz have high AP damage. That should be massively reduced.
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  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,373
    i just wanted to say i don't get why dragon ogres have anit large bonus of just 18 with much fewer model count...when compared to other anti large units,also kholek and shaggoth having same bonus vs large 18 while being a single entity unit.?? i mean its nothing compared to the total damage they do

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Registered Users Posts: 1,496

    i just wanted to say i don't get why dragon ogres have anit large bonus of just 18 with much fewer model count...when compared to other anti large units,also kholek and shaggoth having same bonus vs large 18 while being a single entity unit.?? i mean its nothing compared to the total damage they do

    it isn't just damage, it adds 18 m. attack aswell, significantly boosting their hit rate, thats the most important part of the bonus


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,662
    Wing Zero said:

    Why do boar boy big unz have high AP damage. That should be massively reduced.

    This strikes me as odd as well.

    There seems to be no tabletop or lore precedent for the boar boys to have such garbage melee stats, worse melee attack and defense than gobilns, or armor piercing damage.

    It's less the anti-large and more the armor piercing damage that strikes me as very odd.
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  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,373

    i just wanted to say i don't get why dragon ogres have anit large bonus of just 18 with much fewer model count...when compared to other anti large units,also kholek and shaggoth having same bonus vs large 18 while being a single entity unit.?? i mean its nothing compared to the total damage they do

    it isn't just damage, it adds 18 m. attack aswell, significantly boosting their hit rate, thats the most important part of the bonus
    still doesn't changes the other counterparts still have much higher bonus,plus i don;t think it just dds raw +18 melee attack it works differently

    Balance Is A Lie

  • ITA_Vae_VictisITA_Vae_Victis Senior Member ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 1,648

    i just wanted to say i don't get why dragon ogres have anit large bonus of just 18 with much fewer model count...when compared to other anti large units,also kholek and shaggoth having same bonus vs large 18 while being a single entity unit.?? i mean its nothing compared to the total damage they do

    it isn't just damage, it adds 18 m. attack aswell, significantly boosting their hit rate, thats the most important part of the bonus
    still doesn't changes the other counterparts still have much higher bonus,plus i don;t think it just dds raw +18 melee attack it works differently
    The Anti-infantry and Anti-large bonuses are added to both Weapon Damage and Melee Attack when fighting that type of unit.

    So, a bonus of 18 Melee Attack means 18% more of your hits are going to land on the enemy (chance to hit is 40% + Melee Attack - Melee Defence). That's one out of five, quite a big deal if every hit deals a lot of piercing damage.
  • MachacasaurioMachacasaurio Registered Users Posts: 161
    edited November 2016
    funny,there is people talking about if they should ad a "new" category,when the thing is,this is the first total war game that makes no distinction between large and cavalry,in very short,is has been traditional in total war games to make the distinction,but they chosed to mega oversimplify (and im ok with it at certain point,but lets face it,with the removal of battle stances,spearmen and pikemen, look -10x times as menacing and cinematic as before)


    and the same for map design,wtf CA you never have been paradox,the most awesome tw,the one i always wanted,and thats the one you decide to dumb down? (in truth i comparing it to shogun 2,skipped rome 2 cause of time.)
  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 549

    I don't like this. I think it's a bad idea to dissolve one one overall solid system by making it more complex. It requires more of programming and effort so our chances of seeing it are minimal.

    What is "wrong" here is division by itself - most of cavalry in WH are anti infantry while just few /or elite ones, are anti cavalry. This is weird and counter intuitive, and gives some units massive advantage in job they really need to do most. Old system that we had in shogun 2 was in fact pretty close to perfect. Most of (lance) cav was "anti large" / shock (very high charge bonus) cav, made for circle charging while melee (anti inf.) cav was more armored, less effective at charge but able to tank it out and actually *fight*, unlike shock cav.

    I would re introduce this in re adjusting stats, bonuses and specialization of cavalry - most of cavalry should in fact have anti large bonus, each faction could have ONE anti inf. cav, which should be substantially more effective against infantry.

    They put whole system upside down, which was bad decision.

    I played shogun 2 a lot and that is the kind of system i am aiming for!

    Yari Cav was ok vs infantry on a charge but after they struggled, while the katanas could tank it out, this is the kind of system i want this game to have aswell cav with lances should do well vs other cav.

    Its just how they are going to implement it without causing imbalance with all the monsters that is the problem.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    Totally agree, all lance or pole arm wielding cavalry should have some anti-large bonus.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,384
    salsicha said:

    Totally agree, all lance or pole arm wielding cavalry should have some anti-large bonus.

    i have a thread with changes at weapon types.
  • JastallJastall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,137
    Armor-piercing is definitely important too. It's why GW Centigors are actually not bad, they have no Anti-Large but have AP and are relatively cheap, so they can work pretty well against cavalry which is almost always well armored.

    I assume it's also why Reiksguard are so pathetic vs cavalry, having no AL and little AP.
  • ProR2D2ProR2D2 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 462
    Anti-large should be removed from cavalry altogether.
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  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    Actually, not a bad idea at all.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    Yeah, it's kinda like the Healing potion discussion, everyone should get it or no one should.
  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Registered Users Posts: 1,001
    I don't think an overall removal is necessary. It seems to me that the impact of the cav's mobility has not been accounted for. Their speed means that it is very difficult to support cav with infantery, so you have cav on cav battles a great amount of time, making anti large cav overperform. If the impact of anti large on a cav unit if properly taken into account, then it should be fine.
  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 549
    At the current time its only the BBBU's that drasticly overperform, Demi's are still very expensive and thus can be dealt with. ANd as adressed before you gotta either remove some anti large from the BBBU's which i think is a mistake, Or reduce their AP damage/Charge bonus. The latter seems like the logical choice. Now Cav will still be underused since spearmen are so increadibly cheap, (325 and some nerfs to their MA while buffing their anti large should be fine). Then maybe we will start seeing some more different cav units.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,662
    Boar Boy Bigguns don't even make sense logically.

    First remove their armor piercing, because seriously why are they armor piecing. Don't lower charge bonus because boars are supposed to have a high charge bonus.

    Keep anti-large, whatever it won't matter due to lack of armor piercing just keep the bonus small.

    Increase their stats to non-garbage levels.

    Boar Boys (regular version) have lower attack and defense than goblins. There is no reason for them to have such horrendous stats. Boar boys in general need higher base stats like that of your basic orc and orc biggun.

    Probably decrease the price of regular boar boys because they're certainly not worth 750.
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