Should Elven Arrows Ignore Forest Cover?

TheShiroOfDalton

I noticed that in my first fight on an all-forest map, my Elven archers scored close to no kills due to the trees getting in the way.

I propose that Elven arrows clip through trees and foliage because Wood Elves becoming basically crippled when fighting in a forest sounds pretty lame.

Phoenix99#2050

If waywatchers would have 100% accuracy no matter what terrain, then they would be actually useful

Laindesh

Forest in between units should obstruct. But being in forest with good visibility (like near the edge) should not obstruct and also provide some cover

Combat_Wombat

Yeah with all the buffs elves get from being in trees, it's counter productive when they still HIT the trees. I agree with your proposal OP

mahboi1

Absolutely. Fighting in forests is literally their shtick.

Sky_sweeper

seriously... all their bonuses are forest based, yet fighting with them in forests cripples them cause their arrows get stuck in the leaves. lol.

NoSkill4U

of course they should

You should put that in the balance forum as well

Seldkam

It even says they move faster and ARE MORE ACCURATE LOL when in forests. Please. Both are pretty useless as they outpace most other infantry and cav anyways ..

NoSkill4U

of course they should

You should put that in the balance forum as well

Squallsy

i feel as though wood elves shouldnt be able to cause friendly fire either, you know since the 100% accuracy thing

urbanmech

Even Boss Darren was a bit taken aback by how his arrows got caught in the trees in the stream, but Stelios was quick with the "Just shows you how realistic our engine is" reasoning...

But anyway since CA didn't even implement Trueflight Arrows, Wutelgi getting crippled in the woods because of their arrows getting hindered is just....sad.

PLEASE BOSS, FOR THE LOVE OF ISHA! TAKE AWAY THE COLLISION!

Combat_Wombat

Seldkam said:

It even says they move faster and ARE MORE ACCURATE LOL when in forests. Please. Both are pretty useless as they outpace most other infantry and cav anyways ..

They actually go slower in the forest. They get stuck on trees all the time.

LordJustinian

It makes sense from a gameplay and lore perspective. Being able to shoot from and into wooded terrain is what they excel at. They spend their whole lives doing this which is why they are so effective in guerrilla type fighting in the woods.

Rocksitter

Yes indeed!
Wood elves should have no negative in woods.

chiefthan

I dont agree much whit the OP but this time I do

thebiglez

well that would be kinda lame solution.. pehaps, if the programers can do that, that they always shot in between the trees?

maybe they could automaticly repositon themselves before shooting?

Programers of CA, i challange you!

Seldkam

thebiglez said:

well that would be kinda lame solution.. pehaps, if the programers can do that, that they always shot in between the trees?

maybe they could automaticly repositon themselves before shooting?

Programers of CA, i challange you!

That is so much work and would cause far more problems than is worth. What would glade guard do if they have to constantly rotate and pivot before firing, they don't have 360 degree firing arc...

HorseWithNoName

Absolutely agree with Mr. Dalton here.

EDIT: On second thought, maybe it is not such a good idea to incentivise WE to stay in the woods. This could lead to some very fiddly battles. There was a post where someone was complaining about the pathfinding in a almost entirely forested map.

thebiglez

Seldkam said:

thebiglez said:

well that would be kinda lame solution.. pehaps, if the programers can do that, that they always shot in between the trees?

maybe they could automaticly repositon themselves before shooting?

Programers of CA, i challange you!

That is so much work and would cause far more problems than is worth. What would glade guard do if they have to constantly rotate and pivot before firing, they don't have 360 degree firing arc...

well maybe its not that hard. they do realize if there is a building inbetween the object(archer) and target. so than if that the path from object to target is obstructed by a tree, object moves to the right. or changes target maybe

thebiglez

Seldkam said:

thebiglez said:

well that would be kinda lame solution.. pehaps, if the programers can do that, that they always shot in between the trees?

maybe they could automaticly repositon themselves before shooting?

Programers of CA, i challange you!

That is so much work and would cause far more problems than is worth. What would glade guard do if they have to constantly rotate and pivot before firing, they don't have 360 degree firing arc...

this would resoult in not so clean lines of archers but it would look even better imo.
And if the unit would be very deep in the forest it just wouldnt work.. pehaps they could shoot that very high arc of fire while very deep in the forest

Valeli#5924

No. They shouldn't ignore cover.

Trees are a thing.

Cover existed in the table-top game too...... it's a perfectly reasonable mechanic.

Seldkam

Valeli said:

No. They shouldn't ignore cover.

Trees are a thing.

Cover existed in the table-top game too...... it's a perfectly reasonable mechanic.

Yea it's pretty hard either way. Glade guard shouldn't but way watchers really need something to make them good, and it has to be big. Maybe if ring trees isn't big enough anyways tho.

@thebiglez problem is, what if the enemy is moving? The elves have to constantly shift and that means your basic archers aren't firing. Maybe if the elite ones got it but they're so useless now it doesn't even matter lol.

Laindesh

Valeli said:

No. They shouldn't ignore cover.

Trees are a thing.

Cover existed in the table-top game too...... it's a perfectly reasonable mechanic.

Theres training for that. Wouldnt make sense for other factions bur welfs are trained to fight in forests thus they fire alot more efficiently in forests than archers from other factions. Forests arent purely hinderance, its also a tactical advantage.

And obviously they cant fire though an entire forest but atleast from under cover of it.

Valeli#5924

zhiphius said:

Theres training for that.

If you want to argue that the accuracy of elven ranged units isn't high enough to represent what it should be, that's an argument I'll listen to. If way watchers etc aren't reasonably priced, that's also a conversation that can be had.

But I won't listen to an argument where elves (or anyone else) get to magically ignore physical objects. Arrows don't go through trees. Or walls. Or buildings. Even in a magical land of dragons, all the training in the world won't let your arrow go through a tree if that's what it hits.

TheShiroOfDalton

Who's talking about magic? It's to represent them being able to be stronger while fighting in forests. Currently the opposite is true, fighting in heavily forested areas practically disables their ranged troops due to their arrows getting deflected by trees and foliage. Open ground is currently much better suited for them to fight on which is eye-rolling.

Do you want Wood Elves worthy of the name or not?

As for Waywatchers:

wingren013

Valeli said:

zhiphius said:

Theres training for that.

If you want to argue that the accuracy of elven ranged units isn't high enough to represent what it should be, that's an argument I'll listen to. If way watchers etc aren't reasonably priced, that's also a conversation that can be had.

But I won't listen to an argument where elves (or anyone else) get to magically ignore physical objects. Arrows don't go through trees. Or walls. Or buildings. Even in a magical land of dragons, all the training in the world won't let your arrow go through a tree if that's what it hits.

I mean technically Tomb Kings have a special rule that lets them do just that.

mahboi1

I don't remember forests having such an adverse effect on missiles in previous games. In fact forget about the elves for a moment and consider that at present it is not viable to have your skirmishers shoot from wooded areas, which cuts your strategic options even more than they already are.

thebiglez

i would just like to challnage the devs to program them in a way where they dont shoot into trees if possilble and even move a bit if that is needed to land a shot.

ArecBalrin#2350

The current obstruction mechanic only counts a unit as being obstructed if one of their own units or terrain feature like a building or rock is in the way, but not trees.

How obstructions works in Warhammer means there is almost no friendly fire any more and ranged units get a disproportionately high number of kills overall. If the obstruction mechanic were to apply to trees, then we'd have the same problem talked about in this thread except that the units would be using less ammo.

The solution proposed; allowing missiles to clip through trees whether for the Wood Elves only or all races, would introduce major balance issues because TW games have always had woodlands work as protective cover from missiles. It would mean Warhammer maps becoming yet more tactically inert and make worse the existing tactical shallowness harming the game.

Here's mine: enable obstruction(units won't fire if target is obstructed) but enable missile units in fire-at-will mode to have more than one target: the primary target plus two passive ones. Whenever a troop has their view to the primary target obstructed, they will fire instead on the first secondary target which is not obstructed. If the player does not assign a target to focus fire, a unit will fire on all primary and passive targets depending on distance and obstruction status.

I have other ideas, based on my complaints about battle-pacing, but this is the one which would work right now in the game as it currently is.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

ArecBalrin said:

The current obstruction mechanic only counts a unit as being obstructed if one of their own units or terrain feature like a building or rock is in the way, but not trees.

How obstructions works in Warhammer means there is almost no friendly fire any more and ranged units get a disproportionately high number of kills overall. If the obstruction mechanic were to apply to trees, then we'd have the same problem talked about in this thread except that the units would be using less ammo.

The solution proposed; allowing missiles to clip through trees whether for the Wood Elves only or all races, would introduce major balance issues because TW games have always had woodlands work as protective cover from missiles. It would mean Warhammer maps becoming yet more tactically inert and make worse the existing tactical shallowness harming the game.

Here's mine: enable obstruction(units won't fire if target is obstructed) but enable missile units in fire-at-will mode to have more than one target: the primary target plus two passive ones. Whenever a troop has their view to the primary target obstructed, they will fire instead on the first secondary target which is not obstructed. If the player does not assign a target to focus fire, a unit will fire on all primary and passive targets depending on distance and obstruction status.

I have other ideas, based on my complaints about battle-pacing, but this is the one which would work right now in the game as it currently is.

interesting idea actually

TheShiroOfDalton

The solution proposed; allowing missiles to clip through trees whether for the Wood Elves only or all races, would introduce major balance issues because TW games have always had woodlands work as protective cover from missiles. It would mean Warhammer maps becoming yet more tactically inert and make worse the existing tactical shallowness harming the game.

No, they would actually make Wood Elves play like Wood Elves instead of TWA's Alani or R2's nomads, who both were strongest on flat, plain, featureless maps which is totally backwards from how they should work.

How would that make the game more shallow? It would do the opposite, give them a definite faction advantage on the battlefield.

Here's mine: enable obstruction(units won't fire if target is obstructed) but enable missile units in fire-at-will mode to have more than one target: the primary target plus two passive ones.

Already in the game for WE elite units like Waywatchers, they can split what they shoot at.

Doesn't solve the issue one bit.