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The solution proposed; allowing missiles to clip through trees whether for the Wood Elves only or all races, would introduce major balance issues because TW games have always had woodlands work as protective cover from missiles. It would mean Warhammer maps becoming yet more tactically inert and make worse the existing tactical shallowness harming the game.
No, they would actually make Wood Elves play like Wood Elves instead of TWA's Alani or R2's nomads, who both were strongest on flat, plain, featureless maps which is totally backwards from how they should work.
How would that make the game more shallow? It would do the opposite, give them a definite faction advantage on the battlefield.
Here's mine: enable obstruction(units won't fire if target is obstructed) but enable missile units in fire-at-will mode to have more than one target: the primary target plus two passive ones.
Already in the game for WE elite units like Waywatchers, they can split what they shoot at.
Doesn't solve the issue one bit.
It would be a problem because the Wood Elves are supposed to benefit from being in woods, but your change would make it so not only do they benefit from being in and shooting from the woods, they would have an advantage against other races who are in woods even when the Wood Elves themselves are not. That is a buff which is more significant than the one CA gave them.
Bwa-ha-ha!
People who try to hide from Wood Elves by running into the woods deserve to be punished for their foolishness.
And yes, Waywatchers work like you suggested, individual models can target different targets from their main one if they don't have a clear shot. It doesn't solve the issue one bit, in all forest maps they become useless because they can't hit anything unless they're standing right besides it.
How would you solve that issue? You haven't made any suggestion for all-forest maps. I'm eager to listen.
No you're not, otherwise you'd realise my suggestion is different to what the Waywatchers currently do. Their multi-target is not what I am proposing and what I am proposing is in the context of obstruction mechanics working properly with trees.
Your response to the very serious balance issues with non-woodland standing Wood Elves having a huge buff against anyone else who is in woodland shows you have not a single damn argument.
You don't get it though... This has nothing to do with the "obstruction mechanic". In TW when a unit is obstructed (for exemple when its target is in melee with a friendly unit of the same size) it cannot shoot at all. Trees DONT COUNT as obstruction, your archers will still fire, but 80% of the arrows will get stuck against trees, even if you're close to the clearing.
A solution to still have trees offer some protection but incentivize Putting your archers in forests would be to have wood elves ignore trees close to them, but not trees in a certain radius around their targets. It would require a bit of coding but nothing impossible.
The point has gone straight over your head and you are literally talking nonsense right now in regards to my comments. I'm not going to bang my head against a wall any more in trying to simplify the already simple.
Your idea won't work because missile units in Warhammer have terrible range compared with the older Total Wars; the firing arcs are low and the trees are tall. So they can't shoot over them(and in the games were high arcs happened it was with greatly reduced accuracy) and the tiny range would incorporate a lot of the radius around the target.
maybe compared to Medieval II... but for me it doestn appear to be that much more terrible than Rome or Attila to a certain degree... but i'd really like to have bigger maps and more range... maybe less damage on ranged units, more ammo... slower units... and slower combat...
Rome 2 and Attila is where this issue with the missile units started. Shogun 2 wasn't too bad for it. What seems to have happened is that Rome 2 had few archer units, most were slings and javelins, both shorter range than bows. They also had their specific strengths, with slingers working to thin out lightly armoured infantry and javelins-throwers made to flank heavy infantry because their low firing arc and high armour penetration made them devastating from the side or behind as they would hit very few friendlies at that range. Bows had their range decreased massively for the first time apparently for balance reasons; there would be no reason to take slings or javelins with their low ammo count, reduced range and target-specific damage when bows are good all-round.
It wouldn't fit with the time period because bows take a lot of time in terms of training and making arrows(in later periods rulers created laws making daily bow practice among males compulsory) whilst slings can be learned in a day, take little strength and ammo can be picked up off the ground. Javelins were commonly used in hunting and thrown from fairly close range. So they made bows unrealistically short ranged and it's carried on.
CA seem to have this problem in that when they change something that fits the thematic setting or the balance of one game, it lingers on into the ones that follow after it even when it makes no sense.
The solution proposed; allowing missiles to clip through trees whether for the Wood Elves only or all races, would introduce major balance issues because TW games have always had woodlands work as protective cover from missiles. It would mean Warhammer maps becoming yet more tactically inert and make worse the existing tactical shallowness harming the game.
No, they would actually make Wood Elves play like Wood Elves instead of TWA's Alani or R2's nomads, who both were strongest on flat, plain, featureless maps which is totally backwards from how they should work.
How would that make the game more shallow? It would do the opposite, give them a definite faction advantage on the battlefield.
Here's mine: enable obstruction(units won't fire if target is obstructed) but enable missile units in fire-at-will mode to have more than one target: the primary target plus two passive ones.
Already in the game for WE elite units like Waywatchers, they can split what they shoot at.
Doesn't solve the issue one bit.
It would be a problem because the Wood Elves are supposed to benefit from being in woods, but your change would make it so not only do they benefit from being in and shooting from the woods, they would have an advantage against other races who are in woods even when the Wood Elves themselves are not. That is a buff which is more significant than the one CA gave them.
Bwa-ha-ha!
People who try to hide from Wood Elves by running into the woods deserve to be punished for their foolishness.
And yes, Waywatchers work like you suggested, individual models can target different targets from their main one if they don't have a clear shot. It doesn't solve the issue one bit, in all forest maps they become useless because they can't hit anything unless they're standing right besides it.
How would you solve that issue? You haven't made any suggestion for all-forest maps. I'm eager to listen.
No you're not, otherwise you'd realise my suggestion is different to what the Waywatchers currently do. Their multi-target is not what I am proposing and what I am proposing is in the context of obstruction mechanics working properly with trees.
Your response to the very serious balance issues with non-woodland standing Wood Elves having a huge buff against anyone else who is in woodland shows you have not a single damn argument.
You don't get it though... This has nothing to do with the "obstruction mechanic". In TW when a unit is obstructed (for exemple when its target is in melee with a friendly unit of the same size) it cannot shoot at all. Trees DONT COUNT as obstruction, your archers will still fire, but 80% of the arrows will get stuck against trees, even if you're close to the clearing.
A solution to still have trees offer some protection but incentivize Putting your archers in forests would be to have wood elves ignore trees close to them, but not trees in a certain radius around their targets. It would require a bit of coding but nothing impossible.
The point has gone straight over your head and you are literally talking nonsense right now in regards to my comments. I'm not going to bang my head against a wall any more in trying to simplify the already simple.
Your idea won't work because missile units in Warhammer have terrible range compared with the older Total Wars; the firing arcs are low and the trees are tall. So they can't shoot over them(and in the games were high arcs happened it was with greatly reduced accuracy) and the tiny range would incorporate a lot of the radius around the target.
I don't think you quite understood what I wrote... Nowhere did I write anything remotely related to shooting over trees.
As for you point, maybe you should try making it a little bit clearer. Then we can have a discussion.
Ok, at this point I think you're a troll. I was pointing out the obvious flaw in your idea: the trees are too tall considering the tiny range of missile units compared to previous Total War games. Either English isn't your first language or you're pretending to not understand it.
Are you high ? No, seriously ? Let me say it again slowly. Try to keep up.
If my idea was implemented : WE archers would ignore trees around them, whether they are 1 m tall, 2m tall or **** sequoyas. By ignore I mean that heir arrows would pass through them unhindered. They wouldn't ignore trees around their target however, be it 1m high plants or baobabs.
So can you please tell me why you keep talking about the arc of fire and the heigth of **** trees ?
I hope you understood, but at this point I doubt it. Getting called a troll by someone with the reading comprehension of an oyster is quite upsetting
Comments
It's not a question of them being able to shoot through trees, but of being skilled and crafty enough.
- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeIt wouldn't fit with the time period because bows take a lot of time in terms of training and making arrows(in later periods rulers created laws making daily bow practice among males compulsory) whilst slings can be learned in a day, take little strength and ammo can be picked up off the ground. Javelins were commonly used in hunting and thrown from fairly close range. So they made bows unrealistically short ranged and it's carried on.
CA seem to have this problem in that when they change something that fits the thematic setting or the balance of one game, it lingers on into the ones that follow after it even when it makes no sense.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeIf my idea was implemented : WE archers would ignore trees around them, whether they are 1 m tall, 2m tall or **** sequoyas. By ignore I mean that heir arrows would pass through them unhindered. They wouldn't ignore trees around their target however, be it 1m high plants or baobabs.
So can you please tell me why you keep talking about the arc of fire and the heigth of **** trees ?
I hope you understood, but at this point I doubt it. Getting called a troll by someone with the reading comprehension of an oyster is quite upsetting
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree