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Elves, Wood Elves and Balance (Question)

cool_ladcool_lad Senior MemberIndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,278
I was under the impression that the Elves where supposed to have great units with low numbers (Glass Cannons). However, this does not seem to be the case from their stats (haven't bought the DLC yet); their ranges are pretty low, their ranged attack isn't all that great, their accuracy is the same as everyone else, and their melee units have only slightly better stats to state troops.

Can someone explain this to me?

Also, can someone explain the general differences between the various elven armies on the battlefield?
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Comments

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,455
    Sigh. If you're looking at other threads ATM you'll see a lot of them are about how the wood elves mostly suck, and the higher skilled players mostly agree on this as well.

    Point is they're not terrible but they have as you saw some very silly design decisions that make them weaker than they should be. They are essentially glass with 2 units that are glass cannon... sad days. We are hoping for the ranged units and some melee units to get buffed basically.

    So high elves on the tabletop were all about combining their really strong heavy infantry halberd unit, the Phoenix guard, and banner of the world dragon, making them ludicrously hard to kill (though white lions, an axe unit, also was popular)

    Generally they have this semi death ball then use whatever cav and artillery or skirmishers to flank and get things in a good position with strong even magic.

    Wood elves are the opposite of what you see now. The elves strongest units ATM are their melee war dancer infantry (if you flank charge with them otherwise they flat out die) or their glade guard with sharpie shafts, the wild riders aren't terrible but honestly not worth the price imo and finally the LORD choices are the best thing about them. On TT, all their units hit very hard and we're highly skilled but basically didn't wear armor.

    Dark elves are my favorite. They are the evil elves who use monsters, religious fanatics, solid spear units, very strong magic indeed (their own special dark magic is a very powerful damage lore) and finally pretty much the best light cav in the game, as one of them is equipped with spears, shields, and repeater crossbows, while on fast horses! The other arguably stronger light cav is a magical unit that are basically cursed male elves (dark elf males can't practice magic long story) who have a good chance of magically blocking attacks but wear no armor. They are kinda OK in melee but they're best because they have access to a FREE lightning bolt spell (one of the best damage spells in the game for its cost).
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • MachacasaurioMachacasaurio Registered Users Posts: 161
    Seldkam said:



    Dark elves are my favorite.and finally pretty much the best light cav in the game


    we never heard of this "light cavalry" you speak about here in TW:warhammer.

  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937

    Seldkam said:



    Dark elves are my favorite.and finally pretty much the best light cav in the game


    we never heard of this "light cavalry" you speak about here in TW:warhammer.

    What do you mean ?
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • NovantcoNovantco Registered Users Posts: 9
    They need some tweaking to get them up to standard. Once that is done they should be great.
  • Fedevd#1921Fedevd#1921 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 174
    I think WE are good balanced for single game. I do not try them in MP yet. I didn't play table WH, so I think WE must not be classical heavy infantry steamroller. If CA would buff melee infantry, then elfs would be another dwarfs.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    Dunno. I have no complaints. I just micro a lot and win.
  • Pray#3234Pray#3234 Registered Users Posts: 1,606
    Waywatcher , wildwood ranger , Giant eagle need to do some thing

    -Waywatcher not worst at cost and useless than normal archer , i don't Argument with you , yes he need alot of micro but hey that 300 upkeep but do total dmg lower thane Glade guard also totallysuck than Empire cav .
    - Wildwood ranger is same roll with Wardancer spears but lower speed
    -Giant eagle ,suck than hawk -*- and don't know why the big jaw and big claw has low armour pircecing .
  • Valeli#5924Valeli#5924 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,121
    edited December 2016
    cool_lad said:

    Also, can someone explain the general differences between the various elven armies on the battlefield?

    It can be a bit tricky to really distinguish the armies, as they have some obvious similarities. They can be more or less similar depending on player composition.

    HE are probably the most "traditional" of them, in that you make use of ranked infantry, heavy cavalry that didn't suffer a movement penalty for barding, and various elite units. HE spearmen were their core unit and solid in theory - they worked more as pike men than as spears, attacking in one more rank than regular spearmen. That said, they weren't actually solid at all. They had a horrible save, toughness 3, and a pretty high point cost. If someone took a large unit of HE spearmen and you tossed a rock or AoE spell on top of them, the results were usually pretty tragic.

    As a result, most people would take the bare minimum core and then focus on their specials which were filled with great choices across the board. The specials were durable (for elves). I wouldn't agree on that big unit of phoenix guard being a defining feature of a HE list, but it made for a surprisingly tough unit. I never used it much though, and did quite well with MSU (multiple small units) swordmasters. It certainly wasn't a required part of the army comp. White lions were also relatively protected from missile fire (for elves) and difficult to break. They'd work well if you wanted a "traditional" battle line, although being pricey and low toughness you'd still generally want to close as fast as possible.

    DE had more of a focus on monsters, although I guess that distinction started to melt towards the end when HE got their phoenixes and dragon mages. DE had some exceptionally great light cavalry. Their basic spears were worse than the HE ones, but neither race's spear units were all that amazing. It's hard to make high point t3 non-elite troops amazing. That's probably a reason everyone around me played HE and DE with a lot of MSU (WE did that too, of course). I'd be tempted to say DE focused more on melee than their kin on Ulthuan, but HE swordmasters were simply too amazing to let that statement hold up.....

    WE were more focused on movement. They had a lot of skirmishing and avoidance shenanigans, combined with some very durable forest spirits. Ideally they'd run around the table and then they'd get multiple charges off on one of your units - MSU at it's very best. WE, more than either of the other two, needed to be in the right place at the right time. Most of their games weren't won through shooting, contrary to what some people here might have you believe. It was just a (strong) supporting element.

    Post edited by Valeli#5924 on
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,455
    Executioners are better *shakes fist* lol

    But yes valeli mostly agreed, white lions were also arguable better than Phoenix guard in 8th for that matter

    Also I don't know why but every guide on high elves I've read say sword masters are bad, maybe they were being sarcastic lol
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Valeli#5924Valeli#5924 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,121
    edited December 2016
    Executioners are pretty awesome, no doubt there. They got neat models too (although I think I like most of the elf models in general, across the three ranges).

    If the SM comments weren't sarcastic, I expect they were made in the context of them also being the most vulnerable of the three choices by far. Even t3 bows could give them a bad day (to say nothing of more serious firepower). That made using ranked up sizable units of them a rather risky proposition, compared to the relative safety of white lions and phoenix guard.

    Taking multiple small units sort of alleviates that problem though, as the enemy can only target so many per turn. Small units were great for rushing into flanks, or angling to make the enemy take charges that would subsequently open their flank up. It also helped (a bit) with not "loosing" the deployment phase, as armies with lots of trash units usually got a really big leg up in selecting their match-ups with you if you didn't use MSU.

    Sword Masters were also probably a worse choice before the ASF rule came into being, as back then they retained all the fragility and high cost without being able to swing first. A good offense is a decent defense in their case, and being able to get all those attacks off prevents a lot of return swings. I'd probably have gone for white lions over them back then, if I wanted GW infantry.
  • HarconnHarconn Registered Users Posts: 943
    I'm in fact glad that Wood Elves were the first elven race to come out. I can't imagine how **** I would have been if high elves sucked like the wood elves do now. Now CA can finetune them and hopefully the other elven races won't come out with this problems anymore.
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  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Registered Users Posts: 653
    I find it refreshing that elvs are not op for a change ^^
  • UppslitarenUppslitaren Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 582
    edited December 2016
    Harconn said:

    I'm in fact glad that Wood Elves were the first elven race to come out. I can't imagine how **** I would have been if high elves sucked like the wood elves do now. Now CA can finetune them and hopefully the other elven races won't come out with this problems anymore.

    This. I almost don't want CA to release high elves or dark elves now. Mork knows what they will do to them... Wood elves are definately playable if you're a decent player, but they are a shadow of their Table top self. To think glade guards get outshot by orc arrer boyz in a 1v1 is laughable and embarrassing, and that coming from me, a greenskin player even back to the table top.
  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Registered Users Posts: 653

    Harconn said:

    I'm in fact glad that Wood Elves were the first elven race to come out. I can't imagine how **** I would have been if high elves sucked like the wood elves do now. Now CA can finetune them and hopefully the other elven races won't come out with this problems anymore.

    This. I almost don't want CA to release high elves or dark elves now. Mork knows what they will do to them... Wood elves are definately playable if you're a decent player, but they are a shadow of their Table top self. To think glade guards get outshot by orc arrer boyz in a 1v1 is laughable and embarrassing, and that coming from me, a greenskin player even back to the table top.
    Glade guards won´t be outshot by orc arrer boys if you just keep moving them back btw. You don´t (only) pay for better bows but also for abilitys like "shoot on the move" witht heir higher price.

    Guess the issue is, you don´t realy have the time to use the advantages of your units. The Damage comes mainly from the archers but as soon as the meele begins, you can´t shoot anymore, as long as you don´t reposition. By the time you repositioned, the battle is over, thanks to the extremly fast pace, wich is even faster with wood elv meele troops. So either Wood Elves should be able to shoot into meele, somewhat reflecting their mastery of the bow (Not afraid to hit their own dudes, since they know they´re to good for it) or the pace should be reduced, so the meele troops actually can hold the lines for your archers to get in a better shooting position.
  • Stephince#6150Stephince#6150 Registered Users Posts: 3,300

    Harconn said:

    I'm in fact glad that Wood Elves were the first elven race to come out. I can't imagine how **** I would have been if high elves sucked like the wood elves do now. Now CA can finetune them and hopefully the other elven races won't come out with this problems anymore.

    This. I almost don't want CA to release high elves or dark elves now. Mork knows what they will do to them... Wood elves are definately playable if you're a decent player, but they are a shadow of their Table top self. To think glade guards get outshot by orc arrer boyz in a 1v1 is laughable and embarrassing, and that coming from me, a greenskin player even back to the table top.
    One thing to remember I guess is that CA are learning all the time with every faction they add. This is unlike a game they have ever made before (even if the underlying mechanics are 'the same'). They are learning, things will be tweaked, things will change.

  • UppslitarenUppslitaren Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 582
    edited December 2016
    I'm not disputing that glade guards should be able outperform an orc by running away or moving to the side.
    I'm referring to actual damage, accuracy aim etc. I am not referring to the ability to walk around while shooting.
    To think that elves who specialize in using bows and have used them for possibly hundreds of years still struggle to win an archery competition against orcs is interesting. I mean, greenskins are kind of known for being the worst archers in the warhammer world.

    Maybe it's because I still think about the lore and table top and not in a total war game, but in my book, wood elves should be better archers than orcs, goblins and human peasants. Regardless if they keep moving around or not.
  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Registered Users Posts: 653
    Yeah but greenskins are also known for not careing to much about beeing hit by a arrow, they´re pretty durable, while a Elf propperbly explodes when hit. I guess the larger unitsize together with the higher durability makes the difference here.

    On the other hand, could you imagine glade guards killing orks even faster? What about the higer levels of archers than? Its already ingredbily fast, imagine Waywatchers just nuking units with a single salvo.
  • fearthewayfeartheway Registered Users Posts: 58
    Who decided to shaft the wood elves?


    I will always be a wood elf player, and i feel a bit salty, The archers and the paper eagles man... ****... I spat the dummy when my expensive scout elves got out ranged by dwarf xbows... whilst being hammered by artillery.... where is my answer to artllery? i got 3 sniper lords and the damage they did to artillery was PATHETIC. The elves look pretty.


    We always did have a problem with artillery.

    We have to have range on the bows to force people to come to us.

    If our range and damage is LESS or equal to artillery players supporting xbows / guns then they just sit there and blast us. So we charge with overpriced cav and get slaughtered by spearmen and their heavier cav.

    Also wood elf archers used to be ok in combat, not great but good enough to hold the line... not get CRUSHED.

    Then there is the treekin, they just seem so pathetic, all of the units just fall over in combat, and its not that easy to avoid getting into combat.

    The forest dragon just seems a bit weak and underpowered / expensive. How about a acid steam flame breath attack to set fire to things.

    The big tree guys are cool but dont do any damage so the enemy just ignores them and kills everything else. They are so slow they spend most of the time wandering about being avoided.

    Finally since when did wood elves break so easily? i can accept wood elves getting minced up but not running and getting wiped out. Most of my battles so far my big tree dude is on full health and its game over cos off all the breaking. He is like wtf guys? and can he boost morale? can he ox.

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  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    "Maybe it's because I still think about the lore and table top and not in a total war game, but in my book, wood elves should be better archers than orcs, goblins and human peasants. Regardless if they keep moving around or not. "

    being a better archer =/= winning a head on engagement with a numerical superioty that's just good enough...


    if i had 10 Elite Soldiers and have them attack 25 MGs with freshly trained guys behind them over open field... my Money would be on the MGs... simply because of the higher volume of fire... which makes it rather likely that these 10 guys will get mowed down no matter how trained...
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  • Krunch#7448Krunch#7448 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,480
    edited December 2016
    Glade Guard in my opinion should be able to outmatch(In a standard fight, IE something they normally would not) anything the orcs throw at them, Brettonian Peasants(With a bit of a struggle) and Empire Crossbows. They should also outmatch TK bows and Lizardmen Skirmishers in the future. Meanwhile GG and even Deepwood Scouts should fear Quarellers, High Elf Archers, and Warplock Jezzails I'd imagine depending upon their unit size, Darkshards are a bit iffy though depending upon their range, but if a WElf player doesn't maneover out of the way they should beat them. WElfs should basically be able to beat anything if you can make use of their Skirmishing capabilities though. Brettonian Peasants and Empire Crossbows are a bit iffy though, I do think maybe(emphasis on maybe) standard GG should be defeated by them, or if not heavily damaged.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,455
    Dark shards have shields, nuff said--

    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • MachacasaurioMachacasaurio Registered Users Posts: 161
    edited December 2016
    Dalakh said:

    Seldkam said:



    Dark elves are my favorite.and finally pretty much the best light cav in the game


    we never heard of this "light cavalry" you speak about here in TW:warhammer.

    What do you mean ?


    sorry,it was an MP comment, light cavalry is massively ignored in favor of the heavy one,,both bow and spear variants are...well... weak. in pretty much all armies,feels like a balancing thing.

    marauder riders,are also good melee cav in TT,not here. same with beastmen and chariots. do you see chariots in one of the 2 "chariot focused" factions?
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,455
    Horse masters are pretty solid in melee considering
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • EmarthEmarth Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 401

    Dalakh said:

    Seldkam said:



    Dark elves are my favorite.and finally pretty much the best light cav in the game


    we never heard of this "light cavalry" you speak about here in TW:warhammer.

    What do you mean ?


    sorry,it was an MP comment, light cavalry is massively ignored in favor of the heavy one,,both bow and spear variants are...well... weak. in pretty much all armies,feels like a balancing thing.

    marauder riders,are also good melee cav in TT,not here. same with beastmen and chariots. do you see chariots in one of the 2 "chariot focused" factions?
    Light cav is popular in mp beacuse they tend to be easily cost-effective, scirmish cav is igored.
  • MachacasaurioMachacasaurio Registered Users Posts: 161
    edited December 2016
    ¿? light cav is not popular in MP, nobody uses ever light cav in this game,that was all of this about,they re not popular.( and maybe a bit to "weak")




  • Krunch#7448Krunch#7448 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,480
    Seldkam said:

    Dark shards have shields, nuff said--

    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?

    High Elf Archers are more traditional line archers, as is the entire faction. They should stand tall against basically everything but Quarellers. They should not be able to fire while moving however IMO as a balancing feature and should be as I said traditional line archers, though I forget if they could shoot and move in the tabletop.
  • icebernicebern Member Registered Users Posts: 77
    edited December 2016
    Bel_Isar said:

    I find it refreshing that elvs are not op for a change ^^

    The point is that in the TT all three elven factions were quite good. Wood elves were the weaker of the three but still they were no puhsovers.

    In this game wood elves suck in general. That's why people are **** off.
  • TheR1ddl3RTheR1ddl3R Registered Users Posts: 20
    Krunch said:

    Seldkam said:

    Dark shards have shields, nuff said--

    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?

    High Elf Archers are more traditional line archers, as is the entire faction. They should stand tall against basically everything but Quarellers. They should not be able to fire while moving however IMO as a balancing feature and should be as I said traditional line archers, though I forget if they could shoot and move in the tabletop.
    they could not, if they could their Seaguard would be so OP it's not even funny...

    when Dark/high elfs come im scared that units such as whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lothern_Sea_Guard
    or whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Corsair that will fill the role of both support fire and frontline troops that if they get a *dwarf like endgame econ* they'll be to op to bother playing in the age of peace - they'll be fine in MP just cuz price balance is fine for 1v1 armies if tuned right but in an unlimeted funds 20stack army ... hmmm
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909
    Seldkam said:


    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?

    I would like to know this as well, unless he is talking about Lothern Sea Guard who can have shields but would have shorter range do to their bows.
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  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    Erminaz said:

    Seldkam said:


    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?

    I would like to know this as well, unless he is talking about Lothern Sea Guard who can have shields but would have shorter range do to their bows.
    in 6e the extra armour the high elf archers ware gave them the edge every time, at the high end waywatchers need forest to be even with sea guard. (also only glade guard had special bows)

    In 8e the changes mean they are about even again but wood elves now win in the wood
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