Suggestion to allow LLs of Subfactions as LLs of main races IN GRAND CAMPAIGN

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

Hello Gentlemen... and Ladies...

since i already suggested this in a few threads i wanted to make a thread for it here...

just to get that out of hte way, if you want perma death LLs you're wrong here, move along :P

So... currently the LLs of subfactions of Races, like Skarsnik of the Crooked Moon and Belegar Ironhammer of Clan Angrund, are ONLY accessible to the MAIN Factions (in this instance GS and Dwarfs) via confederation... which is not always possible (for example because they rather die than to confederate OR they have been wiped out before you got the chance). Which, for me, feels a bit meh... especially if we consider for example LL ungrimm Ironfist... he should lead the faction of Karak Kadrin but currently sits in Karaz-a-Karak if you choose him as starting LL...

so with this suggestion i hope i offer a nice idea to add some additional subfactions for the player, move some Lords to more approbiate positions, AND allow players to field the armies they want... (for example when Boris becomes a true LL, since he in lore became a staunch supporter of Karl Franz, i'd sorely miss the ability to have him lead the defense of Middenland and Nordland VS Chaos warbands...)

so.. why do i suggest this?
well... for one of course that you might be playing the RACE which means "EVERYTHING" of that race, and so i consider it a bit, hm, sad that you possibly have no access to a great general of this faction because reasons. Also it would allow for more minor, playable factions like Karak KAdrin WITHOUT stripping the main faction of their LLs because if you would, lets take Ironfist, away from the Dwarfs and give him to his own faction the dwarfs would have only 2 LLs (again and currently 1 if you didnt get Grombrindal before he gets available for all) while OTHER factions, like the Empire and the Vampire counts for example have access to 3 (all 3 of the Empire LLs perfectly fit to Altdorf... it's Karl Franz' capital, the Colleges of Magic are iirc located there and it's also the centre of the cult of sigmar, dito VC.. the only one not really fitting there is poor Kemmler) which could create an imbalance in one way or another (and be honest... a big amount of LLs are always something that makes it more interesting to play a faction)

so... lets get this started... i'll write down the lord, the subfaction they should lead, the main faction AND the tasks a player needs to complete to gain access to them:

for ALL: the Character isnt allowed to be on the field anywhere else (e.g. ebcause hte faction confederated with a different faction, ALSO the player should either be able to choose to recruit him from level 1 again, if he wants to do the quest battles OR to respeck him)

AND they should only immortal IF you own the DLC if they are DLC Faction lords!

also this list is only including Lords currently ingame with 5 exceptions since htey are likely anyway... and two because i would like to see him ingame, the first 2 will be marked with a * the other three with **)

Ungrimm Ironfist
faction: Karak Kadrin
Main Faction: Dwarfs
Easy... essentially the same as when you dont start with him... Controle of Karak Kadrin BUT with the Addition of the faction of Karak Kadrin either being whiped out or confederated

Belegar Ironhammer
Faction: Clan Angrund
Main Faction: Dwarfs
Clan Angrund doesnt exist anymore, you controle KARAK EIGHT PEAKS (i guess the reason for the difference to the mostly usual "main settlement" is obvious)

Skarsnik:
Faction: Crooked Moon
Main Faction: GS
the Crooked Moons is no more, controle of Karak Eight Peaks (same reason as Belegar)

Wurrzag:
Faction: Bloody Hand
Main Faction: GS
Bloody Hand is no more, controle of Erkrund, MAYBE having a Shaman building (on higehst Level?)

Grom the Paunch**
Faction: ???
Main Faction: GS
his faction is no more, defeat/sack/destroy X armies/settlements of elven factions, possibly with armies lead by Goblins (if he starts on Ulthuan which most likely gets added with game 2... if not... weoll... controle of his main settlement)

Marius Leitdorf**
Faction: Averland
Main faction: Empire
his faction (Averland) is no more, controle of Averland

Boris Todbringer*
Faction: Middenland
Main Faction: Empire
Middenland is gone, controle of Middenheim

Elspeth von Draken**
Faction: Wissenland (Nuln)
Main Faction: empire
Wissenland is gone, Nuln under controle... maybe colleges of Magic

Durthu:
Faction: was it Argwylon?
Main Faction: WE
Faction is gone, controle of Argwylon, MAYBE a certain Level of the Oak of Ages and/or Tree-men building

Red Duke*
Faction: Mousillon
Main Faction: VC
Faction gone, controle of Mousillon, maybe a special building?

Morghur
Faction: warherd of the Shadowgave
Main Faction: Beastmen
faction gone, the chaos-spawn building... maybe a few killed elven armies...

maybe also the other way round, with the minor factions being capable of recruting the lordes of the main factiosn if X has been done?

did i forget any LL?

if you read it til here: you're through, thank you for reading

any Feedback for that idea?^^

daelin4#9896

Not possible because the AI start with many of these Lords.

Some like the Dwarf characters are reasonably, if only because when killed off it is not possible to revive them- they have to startpos in the game, so their home regions will instead spawn Greenskin rebel armies.

But of course then you got the issue of reviving factions- if they were killed off and you can then hire their LLs, that means they are super-gimped because their best characters are taken away from them.

IMO Confederation is the best way to get them- you do not need to modify the game so that a character is in a tricky situation where they are i a faction yet not because they can be transferred in the middle of a campaign. The only remaining issue is that Dwarfs factions don't revive.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

after conferderation THEY ARE NOT LEGENDARY (in the sense of immortal)... also: atleast for me if, for example the crooked moon should reapper after i took their province with grimgor... you can bet that their rebels wont exist long enough to bring back Skarsnik... and then you would have to hope that the AI does indeed rerecruit the LL

also this wouldnt affec t ALL minor factions (yet) because many of them don't have LLs... Karak Kadrin would actually RECEIVE one

and after recruting "their" LL (considering that, for example Boris, Ungrimm and Belegar actually more or less serve their faction leaders) these factions wouldnt suffer more or less than any other AI minor factions because... well they also dont have any LL...

why dont you wanna allow Wurrzags dream to come true to bring together both, the Chosen of Gork (or is it Mork?) Grimgor Ironhide and the Chose of Mork (or is it Gork?) Skarsnik, the warlord of the Eight Peaks, united under one banner!

and question: how would it change if i have a LL via Confederation and his faction gets revived (because these buggers dont care if their lord is "loyal" to me or not) or if he becomes available for recruitment as true LL? Considering that ONE of the requirements to get him IS that his faction doesnt exist anymore... well:

if the faction should somehow reapper (as in: TAKING A SETTLEMENT and holding it for a few turns and not just rebelling) the lord decides to retun to his guys, you get a message and need to recruit a new lord for the army he's potentially leading

harngerstein

I agree with OP. People have been suggesting stuff like this for a while. Hopefully they'll address it...

mw51630#6772

I've heard arguments for making Azhag start as Red Eye.

I don't really understand why you have factions goals as having their own faction destroyed...?

daelin4#9896

The Guardian of Metal said:

why dont you wanna allow Wurrzags dream to come true to bring together both, the Chosen of Gork (or is it Mork?) Grimgor Ironhide and the Chose of Mork (or is it Gork?) Skarsnik, the warlord of the Eight Peaks, united under one banner!

I did not say I don't want that to happen. In fact, that's exactly what happens when you confederate.

The Guardian of Metal said:

and question: how would it change if i have a LL via Confederation and his faction gets revived (because these buggers dont care if their lord is "loyal" to me or not) or if he becomes available for recruitment as true LL? Considering that ONE of the requirements to get him IS that his faction doesnt exist anymore... well:

It would change because a powerful and principle character of that faction is no longer available to them. Like I said, they'll be super gimped, especially if you use said character to ensure that the faction doesn't get revived, since your idea is that the LL re-converts to that faction after reviving. I really don't see the point in this being a feature. What you want is ultimately a very convoluted alternative to getting Legendary Lords from other non-playable factions. Do these NPC Lords even have unique skill trees?

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

"It would change because a powerful and principle character of that faction is no longer available to them. Like I said, they'll be super gimped, especially "

no... they wont be any more gimped than your average run of hte mill AI Faction since these dont have LLs iirc

", since your idea is that the LL re-converts to that faction after reviving"
no that was a suggestion in regards of your concern, that, if the faction is capable of surviving a few turns after reviving he might go back and therefore the faction wouldnt be "super gimped"

"What you want is ultimately a very convoluted alternative to getting Legendary Lords from other non-playable factions. "
no... what i want is a way to actually GET the Legendary Lords without having to hope that i can confederate them in time NOR them being just a better average joe Lord since they would be... mortal...

"Do these NPC Lords even have unique skill trees? "
most of hte Lords in the game... aside from the LLs (Karl Franz, Vlad, Manfred, Volkmar, Helman etc.) are simply their normal generals afaik...

Tayvar

Right now the main downside of subfactions is that it's harder for the main faction to get the legendary lords of those subfactions, if we would be able to get the legendary lords of subfactions not only from confederation, then it would solve that problem, for the most part.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

Tayvar said:

Right now the main downside of subfactions is that it's harder for the main faction to get the legendary lords of those subfactions, if we would be able to get the legendary lords of subfactions not only from confederation, then it would solve that problem, for the most part.

bingo, it also would allow Ungrimm Ironfist to lead his own faction, Karak Kadrin, without ripping him out as Lord from the Dwarfs for the GC for example

Guilhem

Gorfang Rotgug versus Kazador? XD
The faction de Grom is the Broken Axes.
And Karak Azul with Kazador versus Gorgfang Rotgut?

But my dream, is, if Chaos Dwarf playable : Sub Faction The Legion of Azgorth with Drazhoath the Ashen.
Objective: accumulate enough victories, missions and slaves to take the power and knock down Ghorth the Cruel

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

Guilhem said:

Gorfang Rotgug versus Kazador? XD
The faction de Grom is the Broken Axes.
And Karak Azul with Kazador versus Gorgfang Rotgut?

But my dream, is, if Chaos Dwarf playable : Sub Faction The Legion of Azgorth with Drazhoath the Ashen.
Objective: accumulate enough victories, missions and slaves to take the power and knock down Ghorth the Cruel

Kazador could also come with Thorek Ironbrow alongside him

Defiler_of_the_North

Initially I was on the fence about LL's being only accessible via confederation but this swayed me. How about two objectives to complete and sub-faction must be destroyed/inactive to receive the LL just so its not too easy.

A suggestion for the Tomb kings subfaction: -

Queen Khalida:
Faction: Lybaras
Main Faction: Tomb kings
Lybaras must be destroyed and defeat two Vampire count forces

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

"How about two objectives to complete and sub-faction must be destroyed/inactive to receive the LL just so its not too easy."
read the poste?
one of the tasks to do is: either have the sub faction the LL(s) belong to confederated or destroyed, their main settlement belonging to you... i'm always in for some extra tasks but it shouldnt be something too specific... for example yours:

if you already took care of all VC in your strting area (Neferata) you would have to send an army through the badlands (or let them sail up) and then look to find one... i could imagine that being a tad... meh...

Defiler_of_the_North

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

"How about two objectives to complete and sub-faction must be destroyed/inactive to receive the LL just so its not too easy."
read the poste?
one of the tasks to do is: either have the sub faction the LL(s) belong to confederated or destroyed, their main settlement belonging to you... i'm always in for some extra tasks but it shouldnt be something too specific... for example yours:

if you already took care of all VC in your strting area (Neferata) you would have to send an army through the badlands (or let them sail up) and then look to find one... i could imagine that being a tad... meh...

I know but at least it gives a excuse to go north (since I have no clue what the objective the Tomb kings will have and why they should give one about the old world)

MadmanMo

My personal opinion is that its perfectly okay if a faction does not have access to all legendary lords all the time.

Its okay if Dwarfs (Karaz a Karak) don't get Ungrim Ironfist (Karak Kadrin). Its not the end of the world. Each playable faction should have at least one special lord, maybe two, and then you fill out the rest with the generic ones leading your armies and making their own stories.

I understand that's not for everyone though, and it would make sense to allow for an unlocking mechanic predicated on the removal of the owning faction from the map.

Like others have said, it would get difficult with liberation and other events that can restore a faction.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

arent the only ones that can liberate WoC anyway? And that only in Norsca? And what other event, aside rebellion, can restore a faction?

and against rebellions you can acts (also: see above, an idea to solve that problem)

"Its okay if Dwarfs (Karaz a Karak) don't get Ungrim Ironfist (Karak Kadrin). Its not the end of the world. "
just that then ripping out Ungrim Ironfist from Karaz-A-Karak or Azhag from teh Greenskins or Kemmler from the VC is something that i can assure you is unlikely to happen...

especially Kemmler and if we take into account your other suggestion, Vlad... since that would leave the VC with 1 single LL... unless you buy a DLC... you can imagine the whole DLC hater crowd outcry "no we have to buy the Grim and the grave to get atleast alltogether 2 VC LLs! blablabla greedy CA ripped out Vlad and Kemmler fromt he VC!"

its your opinion, your entitled to that... i on the other hand think it's completely stupid that you can never truly unite a race since some of the most important eladers will either easily die off or have bene dead since a few tunrs until you arrive there... it's also somehwat meh since iirc in the table top iE Ungrimm also leads armies of the faction "Dwarfs" and not subfaction "Karak Kadrin"...

MadmanMo

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

arent the only ones that can liberate WoC anyway? And that only in Norsca? And what other event, aside rebellion, can restore a faction?

and against rebellions you can acts (also: see above, an idea to solve that problem)

"Its okay if Dwarfs (Karaz a Karak) don't get Ungrim Ironfist (Karak Kadrin). Its not the end of the world. "
just that then ripping out Ungrim Ironfist from Karaz-A-Karak or Azhag from teh Greenskins or Kemmler from the VC is something that i can assure you is unlikely to happen...

especially Kemmler and if we take into account your other suggestion, Vlad... since that would leave the VC with 1 single LL... unless you buy a DLC... you can imagine the whole DLC hater crowd outcry "no we have to buy the Grim and the grave to get atleast alltogether 2 VC LLs! blablabla greedy CA ripped out Vlad and Kemmler fromt he VC!"

its your opinion, your entitled to that... i on the other hand think it's completely stupid that you can never truly unite a race since some of the most important eladers will either easily die off or have bene dead since a few tunrs until you arrive there... it's also somehwat meh since iirc in the table top iE Ungrimm also leads armies of the faction "Dwarfs" and not subfaction "Karak Kadrin"...

Like I said, its a matter of personal preference. I'm not opposed to the idea of acquiring other legendary lords who are leading other factions via some gameplay mechanism, specifically to allow exactly the type of gameplay you propose, around uniting a faction.

I don't mind not having every legendary lord each time I play as a faction. I think it increases the amount of replayability if each faction is more unique, especially if/when additional factions are added that may be considered more subfactions than truly unique factions (i.e. Karak Kadrin with Ungrim Ironfist and better/more/cheaper Slayers).

In response to your comments on Vlad and Kemmler, I pictured both of those factional changes as FLC. Hell, if I can manage it, I'll try to make them happy as mods.