Who decided to shaft the wood elves?

feartheway

Who decided to shaft the wood elves?

They are supposed to be some of the best archers in the warhammer fantasy world.
Centuries honing their craft and skill.... wood elf bowmen, feared across the land for their range, their accuracy and ability to hold their own in melee....

I will always be a wood elf player, and i feel a bit salty,

The archers and the paper eagles man... ****...

I spat the dummy when my expensive scout elves got out ranged by dwarf xbows... whilst being hammered by artillery.... where is my answer to artllery? i got 3 sniper lords and the damage they did to artillery was PATHETIC. The elves look pretty.


We always did have a problem with artillery.

We have to have range on the bows to force people to come to us.

If our range and damage is LESS or equal to artillery players supporting xbows / guns then they just sit there and blast us. So we charge with overpriced cav and get slaughtered by spearmen and their heavier cav.

Also wood elf archers used to be ok in combat, not great but good enough to hold the line... not get CRUSHED.

Then there is the treekin, they just seem so pathetic, all of the units just fall over in combat, and its not that easy to avoid getting into combat.

The forest dragon just seems a bit weak and underpowered / expensive. How about a acid steam flame breath attack to set fire to things.

The big tree guys are cool but dont do any damage so the enemy just ignores them and kills everything else. They are so slow they spend most of the time wandering about being avoided.

Finally since when did wood elves break so easily? i can accept wood elves getting minced up but not running and getting wiped out. Most of my battles so far my big tree dude is on full health and its game over cos off all the breaking. He is like wtf guys? and can he boost morale? can he bleep. encourage only works if he can get to the fight in time before all the elves are dead or run away. Where are my musicians? where are my magical standards....

Fighting vampires was just an awful experience.

Fighting chaos I have to rely on lame air. I tried to design an army i could have fun with vs chaos . A cinematic army that would look cool and fight the fair fight and then i though well what the f do i do about artillery? it basically forces me to go mass air... which cannot be fun for the opponent.

Stephince#6150

It must have been the Skaven. Filthy ratmen.

Stephince#6150

Kams combat mod deals with the range issue

Machacasaurio

just a thing, agreed for the most part.


but you shouldnt win a ranged duel vs dwarves.


dwarves are (or should be) the kings missile duels.

they can be worse shooters.but,you know.

armor and shields come for free.

aaaaaand gunpowder.

corvus_codex#4567

Machacasaurio said:

just a thing, agreed for the most part.


but you shouldnt win a ranged duel vs dwarves.


dwarves are (or should be) the kings missile duels.

they can be worse shooters.but,you know.

armor and shields come for free.

aaaaaand gunpowder.

also they have 500+ years of practice too.

Thanquol

Stephince said:

It must have been the Skaven. Filthy ratmen.

*Shifty eyes*

SetheusIX

arrow of curnus or what ever its called kills arty. I do agree that WE archers suck but I don't think they should beat quarrellers cause other wise WEs will just go all archer v dwarfs and get an auto win everytime

Machacasaurio

Odsy said:

arrow of curnus or what ever its called kills arty. I do agree that WE archers suck but I don't think they should beat quarrellers cause other wise WEs will just go all archer v dwarfs and get an auto win everytime

there is ALWAYS a way to cheese the ship out of dwarves.


with all factions.

Red_General

CA have managed to turn Elven archers from this....



to this.....

Walrus

Machacasaurio said:

Odsy said:

arrow of curnus or what ever its called kills arty. I do agree that WE archers suck but I don't think they should beat quarrellers cause other wise WEs will just go all archer v dwarfs and get an auto win everytime

there is ALWAYS a way to cheese the ship out of dwarves.


with all factions.

Yes, like Treekin and Hawk Riders.

Grimtalos

I dont know if I am misremember been quite a few years since I played TT. But I dont remember in TT the wood elves being that good at range. Yes they could take a lot of range units, but they never seemed that much stronger than the other races ranged units. The bow where still str 3 the same as human archers. It was more the range units being used as piece of the puzzle with the other units in the wood elf roster.

It seems every body is playing the wood elves in TW with 80% range and hope they can just kite all day to win, that seems pretty dull for gameplay. When I played the mini campaign I used a 60/40 split.

Walrus

GrimTalos said:

I dont know if I am misremember been quite a few years since I played TT. But I dont remember in TT the wood elves being that good at range. Yes they could take a lot of range units, but they never seemed that much stronger than the other races ranged units. The bow where still str 3 the same as human archers. It was more the range units being used as piece of the puzzle with the other units in the wood elf roster.

It seems every body is playing the wood elves in TW with 80% range and hope they can just kite all day to win, that seems pretty dull for gameplay. When I played the mini campaign I used a 60/40 split.

I didnt have any problems with battles. However, Im guessing the complaints are about the problems with amber and "weak" melee infantry. I found them okish, but the Wildwood Rangers are not worth their price, neither are Waywatchers.

lylin

I find in my very hard campaign (but at normal battle difficulty) with Lokerian's Better AI mod, they're quite fine and able to win heroic victories against twice as many Tilea troops for instance, using Tier 1 troops + a couple of wardancers + 1 wild rider + 1 hawk rider (the Tier 2 units Orion starts with).

I have played 2 games of Very Hard grand campaign as Wood Elves now, the first one largely unmodded and the 2nd one with no regional occupation and Lokerian's Better AI - the 2nd game was really enjoyable as every faction was so aggressive and each of the "main factions" were dominating (including Karak Drak, with 18 settlements... first time I have ever encountered them with a faction besides Chaos "alive"). Wood Elves allies also got me into wars with both Empire and Dwarves, go figure.

clee24

I aagre with op. I think the visuel design is super nice. The gameplay looks good on paper, but works like crap in reality. I have no idea why they made the woodelves this way. Can only hope they will change it. I feel 15 euro for this was way too much. Feels unbalanced, like they didnt test it or the guys in charge of the gameplay didnt care. Its really sad, was really looking forward for this.

Red_General

Clee24 said:

Feels unbalanced, like they didnt test it or the guys in charge of the gameplay didnt care. Its really sad, was really looking forward for this.

Its clearly is being play tested...... by us!

clee24

Lol! yeah that is true. Wish they would make public testing before releasing. I think that would benefit everyone!

mahboi1

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

Combat_Wombat

This is good as the start. CA was probably afraid they would make Welds too OP or an annoying kiting faction so we get a pretty UP race instead. This is good because now they can buff them up to a good point instead of having them be the dominating faction for a month... Or two. That would have been the worse outcome. They have the most potential for abusive flyer spam since the problem with goon squads is still about as prevalent as it's always been. They even have a hero that can SHOOT without being seen!

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

mahboi1 said:

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

best archers =/= beating superior numbers of OKish or even rather good archers that possibly are also armoured and can take a few extra hits...

mahboi1

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

best archers =/= beating superior numbers of OKish or even rather good archers that possibly are also armoured and can take a few extra hits...

The wood elves are supposed to be the finest archers in the old world! Nothing can hold a candle to them, especially irregular peasants or goblins.

At this point we are looking at the basic, fundamental concepts being completely borked. I mean what is this a movie tie-in made by some shovelware co.? CA should be humiliated for outputting content in such a state.

Setrus#7519

Unless you're this guy, I wouldn't advice standing in front of better armoured troops coming in far greater numbers.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

best archers =/= beating superior numbers of OKish or even rather good archers that possibly are also armoured and can take a few extra hits...

The wood elves are supposed to be the finest archers in the old world! Nothing can hold a candle to them, especially irregular peasants or goblins.

At this point we are looking at the basic, fundamental concepts being completely borked. I mean what is this a movie tie-in made by some shovelware co.? CA should be humiliated for outputting content in such a state.

GrimTalos said:

Strange because I just checked my Bretonnian army book and Archers are 5points. They can be 7pts if you give them light armour, Braziers and Stakes. But not sure where you got 8pts.

Also Glade Guard are 12points, where are you getting your point values Endur ?

But any way if you do a test with 200points of bretonnian archers against 200points of Glade guard. In a pure range fight the Bretonnian archers are going to win.

Mainly as it will be 16 Glade guard against 40 Bretonnians.

Wood elfs can not fight 1v1, they will and should lose nearly every fight.

Why do people think Wood Elf archers kill all other archers in 1v1 ?


How many of you played Wood Elfs in TT ?

GLADE GUARD SHOULD BE KILLED BY BRETONNIAN ARCHERS/MOST RANGE UNITS

BEST ARCHERS doesnt MATTER if you are getting turned into a pin cushion by superior numbers that just have to hit GOOD ENOUGH... QUantity has a Quality of its own... 5 well trained snipers irl also would most likely stand no chance on open field without using their strengths VS 15 guys that are trained just enough...

these "irregular peasents" are based on english longbow men and just as them are training since years with their longbows...

what do some people here expect? That they all play Legolas?

mahboi1

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

best archers =/= beating superior numbers of OKish or even rather good archers that possibly are also armoured and can take a few extra hits...

The wood elves are supposed to be the finest archers in the old world! Nothing can hold a candle to them, especially irregular peasants or goblins.

At this point we are looking at the basic, fundamental concepts being completely borked. I mean what is this a movie tie-in made by some shovelware co.? CA should be humiliated for outputting content in such a state.

GrimTalos said:

Strange because I just checked my Bretonnian army book and Archers are 5points. They can be 7pts if you give them light armour, Braziers and Stakes. But not sure where you got 8pts.

Also Glade Guard are 12points, where are you getting your point values Endur ?

But any way if you do a test with 200points of bretonnian archers against 200points of Glade guard. In a pure range fight the Bretonnian archers are going to win.

Mainly as it will be 16 Glade guard against 40 Bretonnians.

Wood elfs can not fight 1v1, they will and should lose nearly every fight.

Why do people think Wood Elf archers kill all other archers in 1v1 ?


How many of you played Wood Elfs in TT ?

GLADE GUARD SHOULD BE KILLED BY BRETONNIAN ARCHERS/MOST RANGE UNITS

BEST ARCHERS doesnt MATTER if you are getting turned into a pin cushion by superior numbers that just have to hit GOOD ENOUGH... QUantity has a Quality of its own... 5 well trained snipers irl also would most likely stand no chance on open field without using their strengths VS 15 guys that are trained just enough...

these "irregular peasents" are based on english longbow men and just as them are training since years with their longbows...

what do some people here expect? That they all play Legolas?

As a matter of fact in the lore that's essentially what the wood elves are. You talk about brettonian archers training since boyhood? The elves do the very same thing, for CENTURIES, with the finest bows and arrows there are! Combine that with grace and finesse that allows them to dodge missiles and spear thrusts as if by reflex and mastery of forest fighting and you have a force capable of destroying the foe before the first blades are crossed.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

best archers =/= beating superior numbers of OKish or even rather good archers that possibly are also armoured and can take a few extra hits...

The wood elves are supposed to be the finest archers in the old world! Nothing can hold a candle to them, especially irregular peasants or goblins.

At this point we are looking at the basic, fundamental concepts being completely borked. I mean what is this a movie tie-in made by some shovelware co.? CA should be humiliated for outputting content in such a state.

GrimTalos said:

Strange because I just checked my Bretonnian army book and Archers are 5points. They can be 7pts if you give them light armour, Braziers and Stakes. But not sure where you got 8pts.

Also Glade Guard are 12points, where are you getting your point values Endur ?

But any way if you do a test with 200points of bretonnian archers against 200points of Glade guard. In a pure range fight the Bretonnian archers are going to win.

Mainly as it will be 16 Glade guard against 40 Bretonnians.

Wood elfs can not fight 1v1, they will and should lose nearly every fight.

Why do people think Wood Elf archers kill all other archers in 1v1 ?


How many of you played Wood Elfs in TT ?

GLADE GUARD SHOULD BE KILLED BY BRETONNIAN ARCHERS/MOST RANGE UNITS

BEST ARCHERS doesnt MATTER if you are getting turned into a pin cushion by superior numbers that just have to hit GOOD ENOUGH... QUantity has a Quality of its own... 5 well trained snipers irl also would most likely stand no chance on open field without using their strengths VS 15 guys that are trained just enough...

these "irregular peasents" are based on english longbow men and just as them are training since years with their longbows...

what do some people here expect? That they all play Legolas?

As a matter of fact in the lore that's essentially what the wood elves are. You talk about brettonian archers training since boyhood? The elves do the very same thing, for CENTURIES, with the finest bows and arrows there are! Combine that with grace and finesse that allows them to dodge missiles and spear thrusts as if by reflex and mastery of forest fighting and you have a force capable of destroying the foe before the first blades are crossed.

if you want them to dodge missiles then let them move... if you let them stand they are getting mowed down... because they are simply clad in cloth... with all it's disadvantages in case you get an arrow or bolt into the chest or a sword to the gut... and then it doesnt matter how long the elves have trained... as i said... if you dont use them to their strength and expect them do slugh it out they will lose... they are lesser in number and dont have hte armour to allow that... use them to their strength...

it doesnt matter how elite somebody... the best warrior can get killed by a bunch of far "worse" fighters if he decides to fight under, for him disadvantageous circumstances...

Quantity has a Quality of it's own

JollyRogero

Does anyone have a good idea as to why the WE archers are so unimpressive in game? From a designers point of view there must be a reason? Would the game become unbalanced if their archers were notably better? Would the better players in the multiplayer arena dominate by kiting and shooting everyone out and being really annoying the process?

Its clear that they aren't too impressive as are. But the why is probably more interesting. I suspect the designers felt that the game might be out of balance if they were?

mahboi1

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

best archers =/= beating superior numbers of OKish or even rather good archers that possibly are also armoured and can take a few extra hits...

The wood elves are supposed to be the finest archers in the old world! Nothing can hold a candle to them, especially irregular peasants or goblins.

At this point we are looking at the basic, fundamental concepts being completely borked. I mean what is this a movie tie-in made by some shovelware co.? CA should be humiliated for outputting content in such a state.

GrimTalos said:

Strange because I just checked my Bretonnian army book and Archers are 5points. They can be 7pts if you give them light armour, Braziers and Stakes. But not sure where you got 8pts.

Also Glade Guard are 12points, where are you getting your point values Endur ?

But any way if you do a test with 200points of bretonnian archers against 200points of Glade guard. In a pure range fight the Bretonnian archers are going to win.

Mainly as it will be 16 Glade guard against 40 Bretonnians.

Wood elfs can not fight 1v1, they will and should lose nearly every fight.

Why do people think Wood Elf archers kill all other archers in 1v1 ?


How many of you played Wood Elfs in TT ?

GLADE GUARD SHOULD BE KILLED BY BRETONNIAN ARCHERS/MOST RANGE UNITS

BEST ARCHERS doesnt MATTER if you are getting turned into a pin cushion by superior numbers that just have to hit GOOD ENOUGH... QUantity has a Quality of its own... 5 well trained snipers irl also would most likely stand no chance on open field without using their strengths VS 15 guys that are trained just enough...

these "irregular peasents" are based on english longbow men and just as them are training since years with their longbows...

what do some people here expect? That they all play Legolas?

As a matter of fact in the lore that's essentially what the wood elves are. You talk about brettonian archers training since boyhood? The elves do the very same thing, for CENTURIES, with the finest bows and arrows there are! Combine that with grace and finesse that allows them to dodge missiles and spear thrusts as if by reflex and mastery of forest fighting and you have a force capable of destroying the foe before the first blades are crossed.

if you want them to dodge missiles then let them move... if you let them stand they are getting mowed down... because they are simply clad in cloth... with all it's disadvantages in case you get an arrow or bolt into the chest or a sword to the gut...

Also their shots are supposed to be so devastating to where anything that isn't at least 10 foot tall or wearing 2 inches thick plate mail will get put down in one go.

clee24

no, but maybe one of legolas' friends? joking aside, a higher overall damage output would fix many of the problems i think.

Setrus#7519

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

best archers =/= beating superior numbers of OKish or even rather good archers that possibly are also armoured and can take a few extra hits...

The wood elves are supposed to be the finest archers in the old world! Nothing can hold a candle to them, especially irregular peasants or goblins.

At this point we are looking at the basic, fundamental concepts being completely borked. I mean what is this a movie tie-in made by some shovelware co.? CA should be humiliated for outputting content in such a state.

GrimTalos said:

Strange because I just checked my Bretonnian army book and Archers are 5points. They can be 7pts if you give them light armour, Braziers and Stakes. But not sure where you got 8pts.

Also Glade Guard are 12points, where are you getting your point values Endur ?

But any way if you do a test with 200points of bretonnian archers against 200points of Glade guard. In a pure range fight the Bretonnian archers are going to win.

Mainly as it will be 16 Glade guard against 40 Bretonnians.

Wood elfs can not fight 1v1, they will and should lose nearly every fight.

Why do people think Wood Elf archers kill all other archers in 1v1 ?


How many of you played Wood Elfs in TT ?

GLADE GUARD SHOULD BE KILLED BY BRETONNIAN ARCHERS/MOST RANGE UNITS

BEST ARCHERS doesnt MATTER if you are getting turned into a pin cushion by superior numbers that just have to hit GOOD ENOUGH... QUantity has a Quality of its own... 5 well trained snipers irl also would most likely stand no chance on open field without using their strengths VS 15 guys that are trained just enough...

these "irregular peasents" are based on english longbow men and just as them are training since years with their longbows...

what do some people here expect? That they all play Legolas?

As a matter of fact in the lore that's essentially what the wood elves are. You talk about brettonian archers training since boyhood? The elves do the very same thing, for CENTURIES, with the finest bows and arrows there are! Combine that with grace and finesse that allows them to dodge missiles and spear thrusts as if by reflex and mastery of forest fighting and you have a force capable of destroying the foe before the first blades are crossed.

if you want them to dodge missiles then let them move... if you let them stand they are getting mowed down... because they are simply clad in cloth... with all it's disadvantages in case you get an arrow or bolt into the chest or a sword to the gut...

Also their shots are supposed to be so devastating to where anything that isn't at least 10 foot tall or wearing 2 inches thick plate mail will get put down in one go.

I get the feeling you wouldn't like the TT either...

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

The Guardian of Metal said:

mahboi1 said:

Archery is supposed to be the wood elves' bread and butter, yet they are the weakest in the game!? Can't these talentless hacks do anything right?!

best archers =/= beating superior numbers of OKish or even rather good archers that possibly are also armoured and can take a few extra hits...

The wood elves are supposed to be the finest archers in the old world! Nothing can hold a candle to them, especially irregular peasants or goblins.

At this point we are looking at the basic, fundamental concepts being completely borked. I mean what is this a movie tie-in made by some shovelware co.? CA should be humiliated for outputting content in such a state.

GrimTalos said:

Strange because I just checked my Bretonnian army book and Archers are 5points. They can be 7pts if you give them light armour, Braziers and Stakes. But not sure where you got 8pts.

Also Glade Guard are 12points, where are you getting your point values Endur ?

But any way if you do a test with 200points of bretonnian archers against 200points of Glade guard. In a pure range fight the Bretonnian archers are going to win.

Mainly as it will be 16 Glade guard against 40 Bretonnians.

Wood elfs can not fight 1v1, they will and should lose nearly every fight.

Why do people think Wood Elf archers kill all other archers in 1v1 ?


How many of you played Wood Elfs in TT ?

GLADE GUARD SHOULD BE KILLED BY BRETONNIAN ARCHERS/MOST RANGE UNITS

BEST ARCHERS doesnt MATTER if you are getting turned into a pin cushion by superior numbers that just have to hit GOOD ENOUGH... QUantity has a Quality of its own... 5 well trained snipers irl also would most likely stand no chance on open field without using their strengths VS 15 guys that are trained just enough...

these "irregular peasents" are based on english longbow men and just as them are training since years with their longbows...

what do some people here expect? That they all play Legolas?

As a matter of fact in the lore that's essentially what the wood elves are. You talk about brettonian archers training since boyhood? The elves do the very same thing, for CENTURIES, with the finest bows and arrows there are! Combine that with grace and finesse that allows them to dodge missiles and spear thrusts as if by reflex and mastery of forest fighting and you have a force capable of destroying the foe before the first blades are crossed.

if you want them to dodge missiles then let them move... if you let them stand they are getting mowed down... because they are simply clad in cloth... with all it's disadvantages in case you get an arrow or bolt into the chest or a sword to the gut...

Also their shots are supposed to be so devastating to where anything that isn't at least 10 foot tall or wearing 2 inches thick plate mail will get put down in one go.

just as they are when hit by arrows... and if we have a Unit V Unit fight between lets say the Bretonian peasents (which currently are overbuffed anyway to have the faction viable until they are fleshed out in february) and the glade guards there is a numbers difference...

and the Bretonians don't have to hit perfectly... they just have to hit good enough... nice for the elves if they can perfectly hit the eyes of the peasents or their hearts... for the peasent it's enough to hit them in the chest...

also one could also argue that the peasent bow men, crossbow men of the empire and even the crossbowmen of the dwarfes don't outnumber the elven Archers enough...

icebern

Setrus said:

I get the feeling you wouldn't like the TT either...

In the TT elven archers had superior accuracy and this was huge in the number of arrow impacts, wood elves usually had even more accuracy than the other two elven facions, in the game accuracy almost doesn't matter, so they should be given more damage to compensate.

Also all wood elves archer had amor piercing. Some more other less.

Harconn

As it is now, wood elves are underwhelming. Of course playable, but always at a disadvantage. Try fighting AI using wood elves. You will overrun them easily.

Wood elves more or less cannot compete in any category, except speed (which isn't such a big advantage). If you're a skilled player of course you will succeed nonetheless with them. But in the end they are weaker than other races: bad economy, amber restrictions, no armour, no war machines/artillery, nowhere to expand except athel loren, medium archers, weak melee, useless birds, no walls,...