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Wood elves, lore+tt accuracy vs gameplay viability

SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
edited December 2016 in General Discussion
time to jump on the lets make a thread about wood elves being weak or overpowered!!!!

ok so contrary to my previous line the topic of discussion is not weather units on the wood elf army are strong or weak, its not about weather they are viable or not, its about weather they are accurately portraying the lore view or table top functionality of a unit, now this isnt just an issue with wood elves, i personally think dwarves artillery needs to be better then it is but i digress!

so here we go.... how do lore portray elves in comparison to lets say, humans? well i would personally say from my reading of the lore since i started playing warhammer that elves are older, more intelligent, more experienced more skilled and faster but physically weaker and less durable
now when it comes to wood elves, the more experienced more skilled and faster is drastically superior to humans much so to the point where they shed off all there armour and simply dodge and dance around the comparatively slow and clumsy looking humans as if to mock them as they struggle to move in there heavy leathers and metals
but thats mostly talking about melee, sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that! however.... a wood elf is so experienced, so skilled, so accurate that every arrow is pretty much said to hit there mark, weather it be moving cavalry, flying units, inside a forest, they almost never miss, this is even more so on there more skilled units like waystalkers and waywatchers, who are said to be to pierce armour with ease and even be able to fell a monster in a single shot, not only this but they are considered to be the best non hero archers in table top!
now when it comes to cavalry, they are said to throw caution to the wind and simply ride full speed everywhere, in the woods, across a river, through mountains, full speed death metal bikers, suicidal bikers who are made more fragile then glass and if took a single miss step on there horses would become mushy piles of glowing plasma on the ground.... but in this reckless abandon they are moving at such an absurd speed should they collide with an unsuspecting unit with spears pointed out? thatd be certain death to anything unlucky enough to be met with that speed demon like psychopath....
i dont even want to talk about the eagles, dragons or treemen, i swear to god

so in regards to melee, ranged, cavalry are they represented how they are for lore? well the answer to that is yes and no and i will explain why i think that right now!

when it comes to melee, its quite heavily and accurately portrayed that elves are made of what can only be described as wet paper, and whilst yes, this is an accurate portrayal of how fragile elves are in combat, it is not an accurate portrayal of how elves acutally perform in combat, see there is this thing called dodge, it makes people cry at night, wood elves wear no armour not because they are trying to seduce everyone, but because they dont like defence or getting hit, they took it all off so they could dodge, dodge like the crazy psychopath hippys they are, that and cause the swing of a human looks like its barely moving....
so how can we fix this? well in my opinion theres 2 changes that need to be made for all infantry(archers included yes) and the first is dodge, now hear me out before you screech heresy and demand i be hung! i believe dodge should scale based on the amount of people in combat, lets use this example
in 1v1(single combat) an wood elf should beat a human with ease, simply dodging and impaling him from whatever direction he sees fit
in more total war fasion, lets say 100v100 combat, a wood elf might accidently dodge into the wrong spot and get impaled from behind!
so i suggest that we scale dodge based on the amount of people in combat, the more people, the lower the dodge chance!
the second i suggest is attack speed increases, they wear no armour, they were already way more skilled and faster then humans.... so they should attack faster as well! how much so? i think balance should decide, but it should be visible enough so its lore accurate....as a side note, if flanked dodge should be almost if not completely disabled to represent the panic!!!!

now archers, oh god the archers.... so are the archers accurate? again yes and no, in regards to gameplay? eh, ill talk about tactics first, in regards to tactics they are accurate, they play how wood elves should play, tactics required, hit and run, thats all good and great but its absolutely everywhere else they fall short....
wood elves, the pretty much be all and end all of archers, the straight up bow gods of the warhammer world who are raised to be super hippys who live and breathe bow combat, gurellia warfare and trees.... can friendly fire there own units, can miss because a tree got in the way(what the absolute fruictose?), do next to no damage, shoot at the same speed as a human and are less accurate then orcs, yep, bow gods, less accurate then orcs....
so how do we fix this? well add the 2 options from the melee units, dodge and attack speed, add a 'critical strike' chance for all wood elf arrow units to simulate hitting vital spots, how often this would proc? that should be decided after testing... but this is only a fix for low tier units, what about high tier units like waystalkers and waywatchers? i think they should have prescision shots, when hitting a target that is stationary they should have 100% chance to land these critical strikes, and a slightly lower chance on moving targets, and then a little lower chance to but at a cost of lowering there numbers from 60 to lets say 40....
so in short, rate of fire buff, chance to critical strike(vital spot hit for much more damage) and precision shots(massive jump for critical strike) to the super elites and make them have no clip arrows in woods!(only deepwood scouts, waywatchers, waystalkers should have noclipa arrows in woods)
Extra notes about Precision shot, this does not affect the accuracy, only the chance for when a hit lands for it to be classed as this new critical strike, between a mix of bad luck, wind, movement its quite possible for these units to miss, they are elves not demi gods after all, however when they do hit they hit vital spots and this should be reflected

now cavalary.... do these play accurately? again, yes and no they melt like paper, thats all good, but do there charges leave the devastating craters behind them that they should? hellsa no! that is about all that needs to be changed.... so heres my suggestion to fixing it, add a buff called 'impact charge' when hitting a unit in its flank deal a MASSIVE amount of charge damage, 4-5X more then a normal flank or rear charge would, you should near obliterate anything less armoured then a chosen warrior unit on rear contact... this leaves them mediocre on the frontal assault but heavily emphasizes the gurellia warfare that wood elves love and sheer devastation they can wrought on the unsuspecting fool who underestimates these glass cannons

forest spirits, they are well, the most accurate, i feel like treemen should be a little defensively weaker and have a little bit more dps but other then that i think they are fine

greater eagles, lolrofl, k nty, you failed

forest dragons, ok not just forest dragons, dragons in general they suck, thats all, they are criminal failures of the enth degree, theres a few sugestion on these and other giant flying beasts that i can suggest...
first, when a dragon is turning it should be doing small amounts of damage to everyone around it so when its trying to find a target, oops, accidently crushed a human, oh well
secondly, a new magic spell, a cone breathe weapon, it should be devastating to anything but the most heavily of armoured units on an a decent cooldown
thirdly and last for dragons, they shouldnt just get terror, they should get a new type of terror, 'the world is nigh' when you see a dragon coming towards you, you should know your life is over, your morale should fall through the floor, these should truly be a devastating beast, you break on the charge for a few seconds and then you can go back in, you break on the breath attack before trying to come back in, you break when your morale is to low and you accept defeat and run while crapping your pants!

i feel like these changes wouldnt make wood elves into tanky staying power armys but would emphasise the supreme strengths and lore that is the wood elves, supremely good guerilla warfare fighters that while paper samurais when used right are devastating power houses that will make you cry as you dont understand why you were winning before your unit just turned into a mist of blood....

as a side suggestion, lowering unit numbers even a little bit more to try and apply these affects wouldnt be to bad in my oppinion, itd truly represent that it is a dying race and that it doesnt have the men to throw around.... this would also make them heavily vulnerable to being swarmed and surrounded, which i feel like suits the elves as a race as well

looking for opinions suggestions and reviews =D!

~Edit log
changed noclip arrows to elite units only
added more information about precision shot mechanic as to not misslead
Post edited by Squallsy on
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Comments

  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016
    might as well just add a tl;dr here

    all elves should attack faster in melee
    all elves should have dodge(scales based on amount of enemys engaged with and disabled when flanked)

    all elves should shoot faster then humans
    Deepwood scouts, waywatchers, waystalkers should have no clip arrows in woods
    archers should have a new mechanic called critical strike where they have a chance to hit vital spots that greatly increase damage
    elite archers(way watchers/waystalkers and lords) should have precision shots which have 100% critical strike on stationary, a slightly reduced critical strike on moving, and a slightly more then that on in combat
    Extra notes about Prescision shot, this does not affect the accuracy, only the chance for when a hit lands for it to be classed as this new critical strike, between a mix of bad luck, wind, movement its quite possible for these units to miss, they are elves not demi gods after all, however when they do hit they hit vital spots and this should be reflected

    elite archers should be unable to cause friendly fire damage
    lower elite archer numbers to compensate, waywatchers at 40

    cavalry should have impact charges which is a new mechanic deals 4-5X damage when flanking/rear charging, charge is unaffected otherwise

    great eagles should be changed, dunno how but they defo need change....

    treemen a slight rebalance of damage and defence, more offence, less defence

    dragons should have a magic spell added called breath weapon that you can aim
    dragons should do damage to those around them when they are just moving
    dragons should have a severely buffed vesrion of terror that causes temporary morale breaks all units in combat

    as a counter to these buffs possibly lower unit numbers, wood elves should be represented as a small elite guerrilla warfare army that is heavily susceptible to being overwhelmed and i think these changes represent that while also representing how impactful each unit should be

    ~Edit log
    changed noclip arrows to elite units only
    added more information about precision shot mechanic as to not misslead
    Post edited by Squallsy on
  • wingren013wingren013 Registered Users Posts: 1,082
    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909
    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so
    There are no Orks in warhammer fantasy battle. :trollface:
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    edited December 2016
    Erminaz said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so
    There are no Orks in warhammer fantasy battle. :trollface:
    there are... if you use the german translation :trollface:
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176

    Erminaz said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so
    There are no Orks in warhammer fantasy battle. :trollface:
    there are... if you use the german translation :trollface:
    orcs, are thou happy now )=? bet you run an orc and goblin army of just pure trolls when you see the elves coming!!!
  • mahboi1mahboi1 Member Registered Users Posts: 801
    Squallsy said:

    time to jump on the lets make a thread about wood elves being weak or overpowered!!!!

    ok so contrary to my previous line the topic of discussion is not weather units on the wood elf army are strong or weak, its not about weather they are viable or not, its about weather they are accurately portraying the lore view or table top functionality of a unit, now this isnt just an issue with wood elves, i personally think dwarves artillery needs to be better then it is but i digress!

    so here we go.... how do lore portray elves in comparison to lets say, humans? well i would personally say from my reading of the lore since i started playing warhammer that elves are older, more intelligent, more experienced more skilled and faster but physically weaker and less durable
    now when it comes to wood elves, the more experienced more skilled and faster is drastically superior to humans much so to the point where they shed off all there armour and simply dodge and dance around the comparatively slow and clumsy looking humans as if to mock them as they struggle to move in there heavy leathers and metals
    but thats mostly talking about melee, sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that! however.... a wood elf is so experienced, so skilled, so accurate that every arrow is pretty much said to hit there mark, weather it be moving cavalry, flying units, inside a forest, they almost never miss, this is even more so on there more skilled units like waystalkers and waywatchers, who are said to be to pierce armour with ease and even be able to fell a monster in a single shot, not only this but they are considered to be the best non hero archers in table top!
    now when it comes to cavalry, they are said to throw caution to the wind and simply ride full speed everywhere, in the woods, across a river, through mountains, full speed death metal bikers, suicidal bikers who are made more fragile then glass and if took a single miss step on there horses would become mushy piles of glowing plasma on the ground.... but in this reckless abandon they are moving at such an absurd speed should they collide with an unsuspecting unit with spears pointed out? thatd be certain death to anything unlucky enough to be met with that speed demon like psychopath....
    i dont even want to talk about the eagles, dragons or treemen, i swear to god

    so in regards to melee, ranged, cavalry are they represented how they are for lore? well the answer to that is yes and no and i will explain why i think that right now!

    when it comes to melee, its quite heavily and accurately portrayed that elves are made of what can only be described as wet paper, and whilst yes, this is an accurate portrayal of how fragile elves are in combat, it is not an accurate portrayal of how elves acutally perform in combat, see there is this thing called dodge, it makes people cry at night, wood elves wear no armour not because they are trying to seduce everyone, but because they dont like defence or getting hit, they took it all off so they could dodge, dodge like the crazy psychopath hippys they are, that and cause the swing of a human looks like its barely moving....
    so how can we fix this? well in my opinion theres 2 changes that need to be made for all infantry(archers included yes) and the first is dodge, now hear me out before you screech heresy and demand i be hung! i believe dodge should scale based on the amount of people in combat, lets use this example
    in 1v1(single combat) an wood elf should beat a human with ease, simply dodging and impaling him from whatever direction he sees fit
    in more total war fasion, lets say 100v100 combat, a wood elf might accidently dodge into the wrong spot and get impaled from behind!
    so i suggest that we scale dodge based on the amount of people in combat, the more people, the lower the dodge chance!
    the second i suggest is attack speed increases, they wear no armour, they were already way more skilled and faster then humans.... so they should attack faster as well! how much so? i think balance should decide, but it should be visible enough so its lore accurate....as a side note, if flanked dodge should be almost if not completely disabled to represent the panic!!!!

    now archers, oh god the archers.... so are the archers accurate? again yes and no, in regards to gameplay? eh, ill talk about tactics first, in regards to tactics they are accurate, they play how wood elves should play, tactics required, hit and run, thats all good and great but its absolutely everywhere else they fall short....
    wood elves, the pretty much be all and end all of archers, the straight up bow gods of the warhammer world who are raised to be super hippys who live and breathe bow combat, gurellia warfare and trees.... can friendly fire there own units, can miss because a tree got in the way(what the absolute fruictose?), do next to no damage, shoot at the same speed as a human and are less accurate then orcs, yep, bow gods, less accurate then orcs....
    so how do we fix this? well add the 2 options from the melee units, dodge and attack speed, add a 'critical strike' chance for all wood elf arrow units to simulate hitting vital spots, how often this would proc? that should be decided after testing... but this is only a fix for low tier units, what about high tier units like waystalkers and waywatchers? i think they should have prescision shots, when hitting a target that is stationary they should have 100% chance to land these critical strikes, and a slightly lower chance on moving targets, and then a little lower chance to but at a cost of lowering there numbers from 60 to lets say 40....
    so in short, rate of fire buff, chance to critical strike(vital spot hit for much more damage) and precision shots(massive jump for critical strike) to the super elites and make them have no clip arrows in woods!

    now cavalary.... do these play accurately? again, yes and no they melt like paper, thats all good, but do there charges leave the devastating craters behind them that they should? hellsa no! that is about all that needs to be changed.... so heres my suggestion to fixing it, add a buff called 'impact charge' when hitting a unit in its flank deal a MASSIVE amount of charge damage, 4-5X more then a normal flank or rear charge would, you should near obliterate anything less armoured then a chosen warrior unit on rear contact... this leaves them mediocre on the frontal assault but heavily emphasizes the gurellia warfare that wood elves love and sheer devastation they can wrought on the unsuspecting fool who underestimates these glass cannons

    forest spirits, they are well, the most accurate, i feel like treemen should be a little defensively weaker and have a little bit more dps but other then that i think they are fine

    greater eagles, lolrofl, k nty, you failed

    forest dragons, ok not just forest dragons, dragons in general they suck, thats all, they are criminal failures of the enth degree, theres a few sugestion on these and other giant flying beasts that i can suggest...
    first, when a dragon is turning it should be doing small amounts of damage to everyone around it so when its trying to find a target, oops, accidently crushed a human, oh well
    secondly, a new magic spell, a cone breathe weapon, it should be devastating to anything but the most heavily of armoured units on an a decent cooldown
    thirdly and last for dragons, they shouldnt just get terror, they should get a new type of terror, 'the world is nigh' when you see a dragon coming towards you, you should know your life is over, your morale should fall through the floor, these should truly be a devastating beast, you break on the charge for a few seconds and then you can go back in, you break on the breath attack before trying to come back in, you break when your morale is to low and you accept defeat and run while crapping your pants!

    i feel like these changes wouldnt make wood elves into tanky staying power armys but would emphasise the supreme strengths and lore that is the wood elves, supremely good guerilla warfare fighters that while paper samurais when used right are devastating power houses that will make you cry as you dont understand why you were winning before your unit just turned into a mist of blood....

    as a side suggestion, lowering unit numbers even a little bit more to try and apply these affects wouldnt be to bad in my oppinion, itd truly represent that it is a dying race and that it doesnt have the men to throw around.... this would also make them heavily vulnerable to being swarmed and surrounded, which i feel like suits the elves as a race as well

    looking for opinions suggestions and reviews =D!


    Sigmar wills it!
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited December 2016
    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Malekith can constantly start major invasions of Ulthuan that always result in his followers dying in droves and yet his kingdom hasn't collapsed from the continous drain of healthy citizens. Likewise the High Elf can constantly send expedition party after expedition party to the Old World, while fighting off their dark brethren without running into manpower issues.

    If they'd not be at constant war with each other they could easily be thriving.
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Malekith can constantly start major invasions of Ulthuan that always result in his followers dying in droves and yet his kingdom hasn't collapsed from the continous drain of healthy citizens. Likewise the High Elf can constantly send expedition party after expedition party to the Old World, while fighting off their dark brethren without running into manpower issues.

    If they'd not be at constant war they could easily be thriving.
    thats good, considering they also do so with low numbers and we are talking about wood elves =D, not only this but they are defined a dying race, doesnt mean the rest of the lore coincides or even says it makes sense
  • MooncakeMooncake Registered Users Posts: 658
    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Malekith can constantly start major invasions of Ulthuan that always result in his followers dying in droves and yet his kingdom hasn't collapsed from the continous drain of healthy citizens. Likewise the High Elf can constantly send expedition party after expedition party to the Old World, while fighting off their dark brethren without running into manpower issues.

    If they'd not be at constant war they could easily be thriving.
    thats good, considering they also do so with low numbers and we are talking about wood elves =}
    There has never been any mentions of WE being a dying race or having any population issues. They obviously would not be as numerous as HE or DE but you have to remember that Athel Loren isn't the same size on the outside as it is on the inside.
  • TomipapaTomipapa Registered Users Posts: 101
    edited December 2016
    About the dodge: Most WE(even the elven ones) have x physical resistance right(Wildwood Rangers, Eternal Guard ect.)? Maybe this is how they represent dodge
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,572
    The thing that is so baffling about the balance of the game is that the elve archers are really strong once you develop the lord leading the army... That is really gamey and strange... In the end in SP the archers are really powerful but I dont get why it is locked behind a level cap?
  • JavorJavor Registered Users Posts: 910
    No. Just no.

    The lore should be depicted through gameplay mechanics, but if that were the case EVERY faction would be nigh unbeatable. Have you read the lore on dragon ogre shaggoths? On dragons in general?

    And a dodge mechanic is already depicted in Melee attack and melee defense. You try dodging in a cluttered battlefield, see how difficult that is, when being crowded by both the enemy and your allies alike.

    Likewise, never hitting trees in the woods? How would that work with 80 archers packed together? Not one of them is in front of a tree? Or is it like that movie, Wanted, where they can bend bullets?

    I get what you are saying, elves should be better, but I think doing it that way is not a good idea. On the TT, elven archers had good BS and their bows were strength 4 if you were within X inches (can't remember specifics, been some time). See what I mean? Even the TT didn't stick too closely to the lore when the question was lore vs gameplay. There's a reason for that.
  • icebernicebern Member Registered Users Posts: 77

    No. Just no.

    The lore should be depicted through gameplay mechanics, but if that were the case EVERY faction would be nigh unbeatable. Have you read the lore on dragon ogre shaggoths? On dragons in general?

    And a dodge mechanic is already depicted in Melee attack and melee defense. You try dodging in a cluttered battlefield, see how difficult that is, when being crowded by both the enemy and your allies alike.

    Likewise, never hitting trees in the woods? How would that work with 80 archers packed together? Not one of them is in front of a tree? Or is it like that movie, Wanted, where they can bend bullets?

    I get what you are saying, elves should be better, but I think doing it that way is not a good idea. On the TT, elven archers had good BS and their bows were strength 4 if you were within X inches (can't remember specifics, been some time). See what I mean? Even the TT didn't stick too closely to the lore when the question was lore vs gameplay. There's a reason for that.

    The gameplay in the TT was good in reflecting how elves were better, with the basic elven archer BS4 you had to roll a 3+ to hit, 4+ if the enemy was far. With more elite archers BS5 you had to roll a 2+, 3+ if it was away. That and having the enemy archers hit with less than half of their arrows or bullets most of the time made the elven archers the best ranged unit usually despite having only 3/4 of men compared to the enemy ranged unit.

    In the game accuracy is almost equal with all ranged units so wood elves lose twice, their enemies hit them more and their accuracy is not well reflected. If you want to compensate for this you need to give elven archers more damage to make them cost effective. Either that or you reduce their cost but right now they are overpriced.

    Also making wood elf archers not hit the trees is just easy. You simply program their arrows to go through the trees as if they were not there. It's functional and serves the mechanics and what wood elves should do well. I would only give that mechanic to deepwood scouts and waywatchers though. The waystalker too.
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    Tomipapa said:

    About the dodge: Most WE(even the elven ones) have x physical resistance right(Wildwood Rangers, Eternal Guard ect.)? Maybe this is how they represent dodge

    its a mighty strange way to represent dodge

    No. Just no.

    The lore should be depicted through gameplay mechanics, but if that were the case EVERY faction would be nigh unbeatable. Have you read the lore on dragon ogre shaggoths? On dragons in general?

    And a dodge mechanic is already depicted in Melee attack and melee defense. You try dodging in a cluttered battlefield, see how difficult that is, when being crowded by both the enemy and your allies alike.

    Likewise, never hitting trees in the woods? How would that work with 80 archers packed together? Not one of them is in front of a tree? Or is it like that movie, Wanted, where they can bend bullets?

    I get what you are saying, elves should be better, but I think doing it that way is not a good idea. On the TT, elven archers had good BS and their bows were strength 4 if you were within X inches (can't remember specifics, been some time). See what I mean? Even the TT didn't stick too closely to the lore when the question was lore vs gameplay. There's a reason for that.


    the lore should depict the gameplay mechanics and to some extend the dwarves artillery excluded it does, and the 'strategy' for wood elves is accurate, but what makes you use that stragey is not, thats bad, i dont want to play vietnam, i want to play wood elves, the key thing here is that wood elves are heavily powerful archers who use guerilla warfare, in this game? they are sissys who run and have low arrow damage, thats wrong, why are they unable to represent both?

    in regards to noclip arrows in woods? the formations are wrong, wood elves should be in a loose formation for archers, they are not regimented squads like high or dark elves, and after reading what icebern suggested i agree that its a little op to give to the citizen militia glade guard and should only be given to the elite rangers, deepwood scouts, waywatchers, waystalkers and glade lords

    i think i might of overstated the prescision shots, i do not mean 100% accuracy, thats absurd, trueshot doesnt account for wind, rain, winds of magic, bad luck, doding, what i mean is that when the arrow hits it causes a critical shot, its still possible for units to dodge waystalkers and waywatchers, just that there arrows do extra damage from vital point shots when they do hit, and those critical strikes are 100% of the time when they hit a stationary target, slightly less for moving, and less then that for in combat units

    and in regards to dragons? i touched on dragons specifically myself, i do think shaggoths should be changed to, i think a lot of units should be changed so fit how they are described, but do so in a way that doesnt make them super damage monstrositys or immune to damage, but through unique mechanics and abilitys

    i want to see a dragon as a high cooldown aoe blast damage and a crowd control machine, whats truly terrifying about a dragon is not its ability to stomp on heads(its scary to) but its the monsterous bursts of fire ice and poisoin it can produce, and even more then this? the sheer idea of fighting a dragon brings terror, it should be causing fear everywhere far more then it is killing things!
  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Registered Users Posts: 653
    The funny thing about lore in warhammer is, a faction is always described as "the best" in its army book. So elves are a bit less "op" than your description of them.

    And they are not a dying race in warhammer... Not by any means... Especially dark elves can produce enough elves to invade stuff regularly AND have a yearly religious event where witchelves run through the streets and just mass murder stuff....

    Guess the slaneshi influence keeps the reproduction up ^^
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    edited December 2016
    "The funny thing about lore in warhammer is, a faction is always described as "the best" in its army book. So elves are a bit less "op" than your description of them."

    Didn't somebody here on the forums once put it more or less like that:
    "In the Empier ARmy Book the Empire is always united and strong, while in the Chaos Army books the Empire is always fractured and the (more or less) united Forces of Chaos' next attack will completely break them!"
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • JDog91JDog91 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 526

    "The funny thing about lore in warhammer is, a faction is always described as "the best" in its army book. So elves are a bit less "op" than your description of them."

    Didn't somebody here on the forums once put it more or less like that:
    "In the Empier ARmy Book the Empire is always united and strong, while in the Chaos Army books the Empire is always fractured and the (more or less) united Forces of Chaos' next attack will completely break them!"

    Army books are presented like almost like propaganda pieces, it's fairly well known for both WFB and 40k!

    Of course, what is right and wrong lorefully fluctuates between authors and generations.
  • MachacasaurioMachacasaurio Registered Users Posts: 161
    dodge chance is what melee defence gives statwise.i gotta agreed,they have no armor and are very weak to charges and missiles,but they should be very capable of fighting head on low tier sword infantry,

    a MD buff will do the work.
  • UppslitarenUppslitaren Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 582
    edited December 2016
    While armybooks do paint a pretty portrait of that specific army, very propaganda-esque, I think a few things are worth pointing out about wood elves, that we might need to consider when comparing to the TWW game

    The lore and the table top stats/abilities do go a bit hand in hand, because all the stats and abilities are supposed to reflect what they are like in the lore. But some things are toned down, because its a game. CA said early on that their basis for balancing begins with checking the armybook. For the first game they made ever, there is actual values for stuff, how strong and tough units are, how fast they are etc that they can base the units in the game on.
    In the table top, the wood elves are usually viewed as one of the weakest armies, and hardest to play.

    Still I've seen pure wood elf players with tournament records of like 70% winning percentage. Thats pretty good considering its a game of dice and chance, and for an army viewed as rather weak.
    So table top wood elves require a tactically aware and experienced player. Nobody will ever recommend wood elves to a new player. They arent all that good in melee combat, expensive cost (usually heavily outnumbered), fragile, and in order to be effective you need every unit to work in synergy with eachother.

    But when a Wood elf, player that is tactically aware,. learn that and you have to play him, wood elves are really good. The stuff you read about in the lore will actually feel pretty reasonable. You'll be chasing shadows and they'll keep shooting you down, eventually the match ends and you realize you barely got into hand-to-hand combat.

    I'm not sure the table top wood elf would work well in TWW so I can see why CA made some changes, but I can definately see why some people would dislike the differences from the table top game.

  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016

    While armybooks do paint a pretty portrait of that specific army, very propaganda-esque, I think a few things are worth pointing out about wood elves, that we might need to consider when comparing to the TWW game

    The lore and the table top stats/abilities do go a bit hand in hand, because all the stats and abilities are supposed to reflect what they are like in the lore. But some things are toned down, because its a game. CA said early on that their basis for balancing begins with checking the armybook. For the first game they made ever, there is actual values for stuff, how strong and tough units are, how fast they are etc that they can base the units in the game on.
    In the table top, the wood elves are usually viewed as one of the weakest armies, and hardest to play.

    Still I've seen pure wood elf players with tournament records of like 70% winning percentage. Thats pretty good considering its a game of dice and chance, and for an army viewed as rather weak.
    So table top wood elves require a tactically aware and experienced player. Nobody will ever recommend wood elves to a new player. They arent all that good in melee combat, expensive cost (usually heavily outnumbered), fragile, and in order to be effective you need every unit to work in synergy with eachother.

    But when a Wood elf, player that is tactically aware,. learn that and you have to play him, wood elves are really good. The stuff you read about in the lore will actually feel pretty reasonable. You'll be chasing shadows and they'll keep shooting you down, eventually the match ends and you realize you barely got into hand-to-hand combat.

    I'm not sure the table top wood elf would work well in TWW so I can see why CA made some changes, but I can definately see why some people would dislike the differences from the table top game.

    in regards to the first paragraph, I am fully aware as someone who has played warhammer/40k for the past 13 years, high, dark, wood elves, eldar and dark eldar, space marines and tau that the books are basically propaganda and should as such be taken with a grain of salt, but the best lies are made with a sprinkle of truth, its those sprinkles of truth that we take and can turn some of that lore into reality

    in regards to the second paragraph, i agree, toning down does happen, finding balance is absurdly hard, and i think ca has done an amazing job on emphasizing the gameplay of the wood elves, i think they got how wood elves should play spot on, the strategy, the fragility, how they should be used? this is the best army represented so far, its near a perfect match for how they play in table top

    bad paragraph break here but its bulky looking....this might be nitpicking or sound really strange, but they dont feel like elves, it feels like they took the exact gameplay style of the wood elves and turned them into naked humans, i dont feel like im outnumbered by the hordes, it doesnt feel like my units are elite, i dont feel like when im in a battle that im going to be overwhelmed from a miss step, i feel like my suggestions do 2 things, emphasise the very distinct features that ca has wanted to give the playstyle of the wood elves, but also adds to there lore accuracy and actually makes it feels like you are playing a small elite army which is something that elves always are

    in regards to the 3rd and 4th, i completely agree, not really much i can say here other then you are straight up correct, when i first vsed a wood elf player in TT i was left wondering 'wtf just happened?' and thats a feeling i absolutely loved

    in regards to the last paragraph, and i think the changes that ca made in the recent patch while showing that they are taking feedback and is a good starting step, i think the changes they did were wrong, i do not think balancing should be given based on flat number or range increases, one simple fact is, wood elf arrows do not do more or less damage then human arrows(outside of magic arrows), they are literally just pieces of wood hitting at the same speed, the thing that changes is the accuracy with which they hit, this is why i suggested precision shots and critical strikes, i feel like this small bit of RNG will make it feel more immersive

    as a short reason as to why i prefer special abilitys to small number increases, this is a massive fantasy world, what would you prefer to see..... a bunch of units with the exact same stats, limited special abilitys that all function the same way? heres an possible example...

    Bretonnian peasant bowmen, theres 2 things we could do, we could give them a crappy morale and call it a day, or we could give them a special ability with a cool description and flesh them out that tiny bit more
    bretonnia militia/peasant bowman traits example!
    unruly mob - The power of a peasant mob is a scary thing and as long as we out number the enemy they might as well be unbreakable! but should they ever be outnumbered and surrounded they break like flys.....
    For the grail! - I am a pesant, oh the woes! life is hard.... but you know what? that grail knight is a thousand times scarier then the enemy!(unbreakable with grail knights around)

    and the core one that should exist for wood elves.... Dodge!

    Dodge - the wood elves shed all there armour and do the dance of kurnous, there near supernatural haste makes them dodge even the quickest of mortal men(calculated based on amount of enemys and uses rng to decide weather a blow is dodged or not)
    vs
    5+melee defence

    so which sounds more immersive to you? minor stat changes.... or worded out abilitys that give us extra fun titbits!?
  • wingren013wingren013 Registered Users Posts: 1,082
    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Registered Users Posts: 653
    Additionaly a Elf isn´t born with 1000 years of Fighting experience. Basic Spearmen are just Milita-Troops. Elfen-Milita, sure, but they much rather have like 500 years of Farming Experience and might hold a Spear the first time.
    Empire State Troops however are Professional Soliders, they might have a short live compared to Elves and are slower but they dedicated their Live to Warfare and train their whole live.

    Elite-Elf Units should indeed be superior but Basic Spearmen? Its Elfs, not Astartes...

  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    Bel_Isar said:

    Additionaly a Elf isn´t born with 1000 years of Fighting experience. Basic Spearmen are just Milita-Troops. Elfen-Milita, sure, but they much rather have like 500 years of Farming Experience and might hold a Spear the first time.
    Empire State Troops however are Professional Soliders, they might have a short live compared to Elves and are slower but they dedicated their Live to Warfare and train their whole live.

    Elite-Elf Units should indeed be superior but Basic Spearmen? Its Elfs, not Astartes...

    to this i somewhat agree, which is why i think they are being as fragile as they are!

    i do however think the speed difference is enough to warrant dodge and attack speed changes, these would mostly be designed to help wood elves win engagements where they are the higher numbers, but lose out a little faster to hordes, which i think represents there lack of skill and panic which comes from them simply being militia
  • wingren013wingren013 Registered Users Posts: 1,082
    edited December 2016
    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909
    edited December 2016
    Bel_Isar said:

    Additionaly a Elf isn´t born with 1000 years of Fighting experience. Basic Spearmen are just Milita-Troops. Elfen-Milita, sure, but they much rather have like 500 years of Farming Experience and might hold a Spear the first time.
    Empire State Troops however are Professional Soliders, they might have a short live compared to Elves and are slower but they dedicated their Live to Warfare and train their whole live.

    Elite-Elf Units should indeed be superior but Basic Spearmen? Its Elfs, not Astartes...

    Ummm... which Elves are we talking about?

    Wood Elves (8th Edition):

    Glade Guard:
    "In time of need, every Wood Elf can answer the call to defend their forest home, for all are trained in the arts of
    the longbow as soon as they can hold one. After all, in Athel Loren, archery is not just a tool of battle but one of many hunter’s skills vital to an Elf’s survival. When an Elf comes of age, he or she will be formally inducted into their household’s Glade Guard, and given responsibility for patrolling of a section of the forest."

    Eternal Guard:
    "Only skill on the field of battle can earn an honoured place within the ranks of the Eternal Guard, for that duty is a difficult and dangerous one...

    "Each Eternal Guard is a formidable foe in her own right, trained to a pinnacle of skill..."

    High Elves: Under Ulthuan Militia (8th Edition)

    "When a High Elf begins his martial training he first learns the arts of swordsmanship and archery. Only when he has mastered both blade and bow is he inducted into the white-garbed ranks of an archer regiment...

    Once trained, an archer serves in his regiment for a decade or more, forsaking all previous allegiances...

    After a decade or so, if the Elf has proven his worth as an archer, he is called to fight as part of a spear regiment..."

    These aren't people who are conscripted and thrown into battle with little or no prior training, they are people who enter a well regulated militia system and spend decades learning the trade. It is more of a reserve system then the most basic and unregulated militia system.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Registered Users Posts: 653
    Erminaz said:

    Bel_Isar said:

    Additionaly a Elf isn´t born with 1000 years of Fighting experience. Basic Spearmen are just Milita-Troops. Elfen-Milita, sure, but they much rather have like 500 years of Farming Experience and might hold a Spear the first time.
    Empire State Troops however are Professional Soliders, they might have a short live compared to Elves and are slower but they dedicated their Live to Warfare and train their whole live.

    Elite-Elf Units should indeed be superior but Basic Spearmen? Its Elfs, not Astartes...

    Ummm... which Elves are we talking about?

    Wood Elves (8th Edition):

    Glade Guard:
    "In time of need, every Wood E lf can answer the call to defend their forest home, for all are trained in the arts of
    the longbow as soon as they can hold one. After all, in Athel Loren, archery is not just a tool of battle but one of many hunter’s skills vital to an Elf’s survival. When an Elf comes of age, he or she will be formally inducted into their household’s Glade Guard, and given responsibility for patrolling of a section of the forest."

    Eternal Guard:
    "Only skill on the field of battle can earn an honoured place within the ranks of the Eternal Guard, for that duty is a difficult and dangerous one...

    "Each Eternal Guard is a formidable foe in her own right, trained to a pinnacle of skill..."

    High Elves: Under Ulthuan Militia (8th Edition)

    "When a High Elf begins his martial training he first learns the arts of swordsmanship and archery. Only when he has mastered both blade and bow is he inducted into the white-garbed ranks of an archer regiment...

    Once trained, an archer serves in his regiment for a decade or more, forsaking all previous allegiances...

    After a decade or so, if the Elf has proven his worth as an archer, he is called to fight as part of a spear regiment..."

    These aren't people who are conscripted and thrown into battle with little or no prior training, they are people who enter a well regulated militia system and spend decades learning the trade. It is more of a reserve system then the most basic and unregulated militia system.
    All that snipets with "Theyre the best of the best" can be found for Empire State Troops, Orks, Dwarfs, Chaos in their books aswell...

    If elves have to have decades of training for a Spear-Regiment... Lets just say they didn´t perform on the TT like decades of training. They surely where supperior to Human Spearmen and not bad by any stretch but nothing on the "Super Human with decades of Training"-Level, wich some people want them to be...

    Maybe Humans just learn faster. After all, their Technology developed further despite being the youngest race ;)

    Don´t get me wrong, a Single Elv should definitly be superior but those calls for dodging bullets and arrows with ease is just silly and comes more from "GW-Sell-talk" than their actuall capabilitys on the TT


  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909
    edited December 2016
    @Bel_Isar Notice I didn't put in any of the, they out class everyone parts of the quotes, only the ones relating to the amount of training they under take. My point was that they were not unskilled farmers who were given weapons and told to fight with no training. I was not saying that their units should be able to dodge bullets. They are a well trained and regulated force. They may be called a militia but they have the training and skill of a standing army (well if the fluff in the army book is to be believed, they train beyond that of human armies).

    Maybe I should also point out that the Empire got a lot of their technological knowledge from other races. Magic from Teclis, Gunpowder and steam technology from the Dwarfs.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....
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