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Its Official!

TLJBoky7612TLJBoky7612 Registered Users Posts: 19
Kemmler is no longer the Worst LL! atleast IMO let me explain: I tested him shortly after the WE update and whilst i feel he still needs Krell, the updated ability that CA implemented of summoning 7 Zombie Units, means that he has the ability of surrounding his enemies. Don't get me wrong i don't believe he is the best LL for the VC way off, however he is damn sight better than Balthasar Gelt who IMO is now the Worst LL!
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Comments

  • urbanmechurbanmech Registered Users Posts: 1,239
    But...but Gelt is SUPREME! :'(
  • StephinceStephince Registered Users Posts: 3,295
    Poor Gelt. I imagine he often thought he was the worst LL anyway. Now it's been confirmed.

    Buff the Metal!
  • St_AugustineSt_Augustine Registered Users Posts: 220
    Yeah but Vlad can summon Skeleton Warriors pretty much consequence free because of his regeneration. Plus you get a tank of a leader.
    "Bow pilgrims, bow before the Wisdom of Asaph made flesh, the Voice of Vengeful, the Lioness of the Hills, She Whose Legions Blot Out the Sun With Their Arrows, High Queen Khalida, Guardian of Dammed Lahmia, the Watchfull Soul and The Serpent Queen" -Lich Priest Djubti

    MUH TUMB KEENGS

    "Caesar I was and am Justinian"
  • urbanmechurbanmech Registered Users Posts: 1,239

    Yeah but Vlad can summon Skeleton Warriors pretty much consequence free because of his regeneration. Plus you get a tank of a leader.

    So...how does that make Vlad one of the weaker LLs? I thought this thread was discussing the shiteiest of them all?
  • Blaeys#7037Blaeys#7037 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,383
    I agree.

    Kemmler and Gelt both still need some serious love. Kemmler should have raise dead as a bound spell (and the ability to fly), imo, and the Lore of Metal just needs buffing in general. Specifically, it needs to do what it says on the box - punish troops that have heavy armor (eg spells should scale in intensity based on the target's armor). Even then, however, Gelt needs either a powerful bound spell, magic item or some kind of early survivability traits/abilities.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455
    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    Tayvar said:

    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.

    and most of the old LLs are getting a bit overshadowed by the newer LLs tbf
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455

    Tayvar said:

    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.

    and most of the old LLs are getting a bit overshadowed by the newer LLs tbf
    Well yes, that's why balancing should be done not only in custom battles, but also in campaigns.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.

    and most of the old LLs are getting a bit overshadowed by the newer LLs tbf
    Well yes, that's why balancing should be done not only in custom battles, but also in campaigns.
    for the campaign... i might give Karl Franz a lil specialty in the campaign via adding hte Reiksguard foot... only recruitable by Karl Franz from the Reiskguard building
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • ArogadeArogade Registered Users Posts: 7
    Gelt needs some big buffs. For a Supreme Patriarch he is pathethic. Not really better than a random wizard hero. And Lore of Metal being really bad doesnt help either.
    A shame becouse he is really cool character.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455
    Magic users should have different power levels, even if they are using the same lore. :)
  • GaussiaGaussia Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,260
    - Kemmler should be moved to Mousillion faction with teh Red Duke, becoming that factions LL Necromancer (and Ghorst for the VC).
    - He should be able to fly.
    - Krell should be added as a hero only avaialable to a Krell lead faction (or army in custom/mp battles).
    - They should tweak the magic system so that LL caster > Lord casters > Hero casters.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    Gaussia said:

    - Kemmler should be moved to Mousillion faction with teh Red Duke, becoming that factions LL Necromancer (and Ghorst for the VC).
    - He should be able to fly.
    - Krell should be added as a hero only avaialable to a Krell lead faction (or army in custom/mp battles).
    - They should tweak the magic system so that LL caster > Lord casters > Hero casters.

    what? Not Etheral Kemmler?
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Galvanized IronGalvanized Iron Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,058
    edited December 2016
    Gelt's been the worse than Kemmler for a long time. He was only alright at release before final transmutation was nerfed.
    |Sith|Lord|Galvanized Iron
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    also i sincerely doubt that they will move kemmler just because VC have Ghorst... Ghorst is DLC...
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455

    also i sincerely doubt that they will move kemmler just because VC have Ghorst... Ghorst is DLC...

    But Vlad is not DLC, and the von Carsteins have many Legendary Lords as it is.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    Tayvar said:

    also i sincerely doubt that they will move kemmler just because VC have Ghorst... Ghorst is DLC...

    But Vlad is not DLC, and the von Carsteins have many Legendary Lords as it is.
    yes... but Vlad is not a Necromancer... which might be a differnet reason... maybe they want the VC to have atleast one Hero version of each Lord/Hero... Vampire... and Necromancer, wihtout DLC
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • OrkfaellerOrkfaeller Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,329
    Gelt atleast adds something unique to the Empire. Hes the only Spell Caster Lord option and the only way to get access to the lore of metal. Kemmler on the other hand is just a re-skinned Necromancer right now.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455

    Tayvar said:

    also i sincerely doubt that they will move kemmler just because VC have Ghorst... Ghorst is DLC...

    But Vlad is not DLC, and the von Carsteins have many Legendary Lords as it is.
    yes... but Vlad is not a Necromancer... which might be a differnet reason... maybe they want the VC to have atleast one Hero version of each Lord/Hero... Vampire... and Necromancer, wihtout DLC
    Dwarfs do fine without any Legendary Lord magic user, and Kemmler right now not worth much in any case, he is even overshadowed by generic Necromancers.
  • Lord_Nathanael#8065Lord_Nathanael#8065 Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    edited December 2016
    at this point they might aswell give gelt a unique abillity like the following suggestion:
    gold transformation: when enemy unit is below 20% hp you can insta kill it and replace it with a gold colored immovable version of its former self, which blocks off enemies behind them, slows them, and reduces their leadership when in 30m around the gold statue(s)
    2 times per battle, no mana cost

    you know, not quite the morghur level of cheese, because he isn't tanky, but good enough


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701

    Gelt atleast adds something unique to the Empire. Hes the only Spell Caster Lord option and the only way to get access to the lore of metal. Kemmler on the other hand is just a re-skinned Necromancer right now.

    both of which would be something i wouldn mind if it would change... add lore of metal (btw iirc the Chaos also has access ot the Lore of metal) for a normal sorcerer... add Thyrus Gorman and Elspeth von Draken...
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    also i sincerely doubt that they will move kemmler just because VC have Ghorst... Ghorst is DLC...

    But Vlad is not DLC, and the von Carsteins have many Legendary Lords as it is.
    yes... but Vlad is not a Necromancer... which might be a differnet reason... maybe they want the VC to have atleast one Hero version of each Lord/Hero... Vampire... and Necromancer, wihtout DLC
    Dwarfs do fine without any Legendary Lord magic user, and Kemmler right now not worth much in any case, he is even overshadowed by generic Necromancers.
    yes but they didnt have the Runelord without DLC to begin with...

    i'm not saying that they wont do it (though i think Mallobaude would also be a nice one for Mousillon)... i'm simply stating reasons WHY THEY MIGHT NOT do it...

    also: without DLC the VC main faction would be robbed of their Necromancer LL and reduced to 2 LLs... which might lead to people crying "they want to force us now to buy the DLC to get a Legendary Necromancer Lord for the VC blabla"

    btw for others that ahvent seen it yet, i have a small suggestion in the regard of "outsourcing" LLs
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/188681/suggestion-to-allow-lls-of-subfactions-as-lls-of-main-races-in-grand-campaign
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Ice_creamIce_cream Registered Users Posts: 796
    To me Gelt was always the worst LL.
  • Eldrick#6807Eldrick#6807 Registered Users Posts: 766
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.

    and most of the old LLs are getting a bit overshadowed by the newer LLs tbf
    Well yes, that's why balancing should be done not only in custom battles, but also in campaigns.
    I am ok with variable strength legendary lord choices - I would rather each faction had some strong and some weak LL so that I could choose a weaker LL for a harder play through.

    Asymmetry is one of the best things about TWW. Gelt is fine as he is, even tho' he is weak by comparison to all other LL.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    Eldrick said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.

    and most of the old LLs are getting a bit overshadowed by the newer LLs tbf
    Well yes, that's why balancing should be done not only in custom battles, but also in campaigns.
    I am ok with variable strength legendary lord choices - I would rather each faction had some strong and some weak LL so that I could choose a weaker LL for a harder play through.

    Asymmetry is one of the best things about TWW. Gelt is fine as he is, even tho' he is weak by comparison to all other LL.
    assymetric =/= simply "stronger or weaker"

    assymetric balance imho would be: LL 1 is a better fighter but sucks at buffing, LL 2 sucks at fighting but makes your army into Übermenschen... not "LL 1 is awesome, LL 2 is pure crap and only people that want a "challenge" play him" (in that case imho they could take any other LL, fire him and let his army be lead by a 08/15 standard lord)
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Blaeys#7037Blaeys#7037 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,383
    edited December 2016
    Eldrick said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.

    and most of the old LLs are getting a bit overshadowed by the newer LLs tbf
    Well yes, that's why balancing should be done not only in custom battles, but also in campaigns.
    I am ok with variable strength legendary lord choices - I would rather each faction had some strong and some weak LL so that I could choose a weaker LL for a harder play through.

    Asymmetry is one of the best things about TWW. Gelt is fine as he is, even tho' he is weak by comparison to all other LL.
    I agree to a point, but still believe Gelt and Kemmler both need a little love.

    Kemmler because, compared to the other VC LLs, he is just boring - and he shouldn't be. He needs something to set him apart from others, even if it doesn't make him stronger.

    Gelt has a true gameplay issue that becomes obvious in the first battle. The opposing lord (usually the generic separatist lord) outperforms Gelt in every way in the early game. This means you have to send all of your meagre swordsmen and spearmen to whittle him down while Gelt watches from a distance. And, if you do send Gelt in, he gets wrecked.

    Later game, Gelt is a little better, but since he is basically just a vanilla Lore of Metal wizard with a cool mount, he suffers from the same issue as Kemler - he is boring to play. He needs something unique to set him apart as well - ideally something he has access to from the start to help balance against the martial focused lords the Empire has to deal with over and over until running into either the VCs or Chaos casters.
  • Ice_creamIce_cream Registered Users Posts: 796
    Eldrick said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.

    and most of the old LLs are getting a bit overshadowed by the newer LLs tbf
    Well yes, that's why balancing should be done not only in custom battles, but also in campaigns.
    I am ok with variable strength legendary lord choices - I would rather each faction had some strong and some weak LL so that I could choose a weaker LL for a harder play through.

    Asymmetry is one of the best things about TWW. Gelt is fine as he is, even tho' he is weak by comparison to all other LL.
    Asymmetry not means unbalanced. And still playing with a weak LL is not like a challenge, with Gelt the gameplay is still almost the that with Karl, just Gelt is not intereting to play. If you want something different or more challenging you play very hard or Angrud campaing, not Gelt. At least this is my thought.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    Icecream said:

    Eldrick said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Kemmler was never overshadowed by Gelt, he is overshadowed by other Necromancers.

    and most of the old LLs are getting a bit overshadowed by the newer LLs tbf
    Well yes, that's why balancing should be done not only in custom battles, but also in campaigns.
    I am ok with variable strength legendary lord choices - I would rather each faction had some strong and some weak LL so that I could choose a weaker LL for a harder play through.

    Asymmetry is one of the best things about TWW. Gelt is fine as he is, even tho' he is weak by comparison to all other LL.
    Asymmetry not means unbalanced. And still playing with a weak LL is not like a challenge, with Gelt the gameplay is still almost the that with Karl, just Gelt is not intereting to play. If you want something different or more challenging you play very hard or Angrud campaing, not Gelt. At least this is my thought.
    this

    and while Karl is not underpowered compared to some of hte newer LLs he's getting a bit boring too imho...
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Eldrick#6807Eldrick#6807 Registered Users Posts: 766
    Assymetry means not identical on both sides of the line...i.e. In TWW terms, the battleline.

    My point is its ok for Gelt (in my mind) to be a weak LL, fighting against a more "superior" LL like Vlad.

    Add this to game difficulty settings, and you have an overall more refined difficulty gradient.

    Mental note to self: must try next legendary campaign with Gelt as my only LL...put my money where my mouth is.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    Eldrick said:

    Assymetry means not identical on both sides of the line...i.e. In TWW terms, the battleline.

    My point is its ok for Gelt (in my mind) to be a weak LL, fighting against a more "superior" LL like Vlad.

    Add this to game difficulty settings, and you have an overall more refined difficulty gradient.

    Mental note to self: must try next legendary campaign with Gelt as my only LL...put my money where my mouth is.

    I'm sorry to say that its utter bull.... that the "Surpreme Patriach" is the worst LL of the game... i wonder where the Lore fanatics are that cry about the wood elves the whole time... or have they already complained about the weakness of the "Not-so-Surpreme Patriach" already?

    he shouldnt be weak... if he was so weak i doubt he could've defeated Thyrus Gorman to become the Surpreme Patriach...

    The choice of LL shouldnt affect the game difficulty (atleast not in the way you seem to believe) but be something according to own gameplay preferences (e.g. increased reliance on weaker units, like Skarsnik) but not "well it makes it more difficult because he absolutely sucks!" For that i can also start a Karl Franz campaign, fire him and hire a normal Lord...
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    Ok magic has always been a mess of overly cheap, overly expensive, frustratingly powerful, depressingly underpowered, or utterly useless spells. The magic team is failing a brand new mechanic that was supposed to be important fo the game. Now we have summoning off the **** rail, abuse of net spells from empire with easy healing for all their goons AGAIN, Chaos with now THREE useless schools of magic, and no change at all to flock of doom. I honestly couldn't give fewer **** about a couple LL's being trash when the entire magic system is trashier and enabling the worst of the cheese.
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