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Lesser-spotted unit feedback

MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 596
I was taking a look at some of the units that I rarely see or use msyelf. My thoughts:

Chaos

Chaos warriors
These guys lack a role at the moment. Either they go up against armoured opponents and can't damage them enough, or they come up against AP damage and their own armour doesn't hold up. They usually end up in bad matchups that don't favour them. "slow heavy armour infantry with low AP" is a unit type that is suited poorly to multiplayer, or at least the Chaos faction. Why not make them more like Orc Big Uns and give them decent AP damage? They deserve to be a good generalist unit, which they aren't.

Empire

Spearmen (shields)
They got nerfed into the ground even though they seem to be barely used in MP anyway. It was only the 300-gold spearmen that everybody had a problem with. There's no way these guys are going to perform at 400pts compared to their 300pt counterparts. At this point I'd reduce their cost to 350. It works fine for Eternal Guard to pay 50 points for shields and melee defence so it should be the same here.

Pistoliers
They are outranged by a lot of javelin units which I find odd. And their range is so short that even heavy cavalry are always getting a charge speed bonus against them, which makes them rubbish at being evasive fast cav. Their AP damage is oddly low too, it could go up to 2-4.

Helblaster Volley Gun
It's still bad even with the price buff. I'd consider reducing it's ammo and upping it's damage and accuracy in order to make it an elite infantry deleter. Might be worth the cost if it could reliably decimate a unit of Black Orcs before the lines closed. Presently it does about 33-50% damage to an elite running infantry unit that is strung out before the lines close, which is rubbish for 1300 gold.

Dwarfs

Quarellers (great weapons)
They are overshadowered by Rangers with great weapons for the same price.

Hammerers
These guys are good if they get into melee unscathed, which is basically never. You don't buy many Hammerers because they are so expensive, so usually your one unit of Hammerers gets hammered targeted early on, because Hammerers die just as well as most other infantry against spells and artillery. These guys could maybe be price-buffed when Runelords inevitably get nerfed.

Vampire Counts

Corpse Cart
It's a relatively small bump to get regeneration with the lodestone for 650 and it seems pricey for what it does otherwise.

Corpse cart (Balefire)
If I'm understanding this correctly it makes magic recharge slower for every wizard within 45m. This seems pretty bad. Maybe it would be better if it was map-wide like the Night Goblin Shaman's Sneaky Stealin' ability. Still wouldn't be worth it at it's current price.

Beastmen

Gors
Vanguard and no shields isn't that good. I don't think they are worth 100 over Gors with shields.

Cygor
Not that good now, haven't seen it once since patch. I think the Cygor spam army has had it's day with the summoning changes, so the era of the defensive Beastmen artillery camping army is over. Goodnight, sweet prince.
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Comments

  • BerliozBerlioz ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 216
    edited December 2016
    Chaos warriors: are great against non-armored units 1 CW can kill a lot of spearmen and they can get to melee range without many losses thanks to their shields and armor, 2/3 units of this is a good investment against bretonnia/ WE / beastmen/ empire ( since greatsword's nerf you can help your chaos warriors with 1 /2 trolls to deal with greatswords)

    Empire spearmen: i think the nerf was due to the fact that they were a better choice than swordsmen even for melee engagements due to their low cost, don t sure though

    Hellblaster volleygun : the problem is that in this game the artillery targets one model inside the targeted group,i think it s useless to buff its damage the only thing they can do is to lower their cost or increase their rate of fire.. i think however that artillery should not destroy an entire black orcs unit before the fight begins , because after that moment you can still use your arty to destroy the enemy's ranged / fleeing troops, it would a complete negation of 1 unit for your enemy

    dwarves quarellers: they have armor,they re sturdy and with great weapons ( and some melee attack buff) they can protect themself even against heavy cav , rangers are good to take out empire thunderers/giants

    Hammeres: thats the problem with all elite infantrys- they get focused...same as the chosen and black orks

    Cygor: i think they should be used like giants..near your main line throwing rocks from short distance and then melee
  • josh34583josh34583 Registered Users Posts: 135
    I agree with everything except for hammerers and cygors, they seem fine to me and I use them often. Normal CW also seem fine to me.

    My own additions to the less spotted units...

    Pistoliers
    -increase ap
    -increase range

    Ungor with shields
    -reduce cost to 350

    Ungor herd with axes
    -reduce cost to 400

    Bugmans rangers
    -either needs to be reworked or cost less

    Flame cannon
    -cost reduction

    Hellstorm rockets (I actually see these a lot but only noobs seem to bring them, not many good players bring these)
    -cost reduction
    -slightly increase its accuracy

    Chaos warhounds/dire wolves
    -still need a cost decrease (standard hounds/wolves should not cost more then 350, while the poison variant hounds needs to be 450)
    -slight moral buff

    Trolls (all types)
    -slight moral buff

  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Registered Users Posts: 2,607
    edited December 2016
    VC - Dire Wolves should come down to 450 in line with warhounds which many have suggested should be 350/400.

    - Bats need their speed back

    - Terrorgheist needs a major buff or price reduction

    - Black Knights (Lances) down to 1100. Regular black knights and blood knights are much better for cost

    - Crypt Ghouls need weak against armour removed and price increase to 600 or a cost reduction to 450.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,350
    edited December 2016
    Hammerers, Black Orcs and Bestigors are the only big armour piercing unit without a special bonus, the Greatswords and Graveguard with GW have anti infantry while the Wildwood Rangers have ani large. Although the Hammerers have a damage dealing trait, though I don't know what this trait actually does because it's usually on high damage low AP unit (such as the Forsaken and Chaos Spawn).
    Post edited by erza321 on
  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    edited December 2016
    This is a great thread. The more viable units, the more diverse armies that can be fielded.

    I dont know why hammerers dont have anti infantry, it makes sense physically, as a big hammer is gonna be effective against smaller enemies, liable to having bones broken.
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    For the same reason Black Orcs don't, they are already killing machines.
  • GaussiaGaussia Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,260
    I think the current role of the Cygor (long range artillery) don't at all fit what kind of role it should have in the aggressive Beastmen army (in long ranged role also prevents it anti-caster aura to come into much use.

    I'd reduce it's range to around 200, and increase it's melee capabilities dramatically. It would be much like a Giant, but it's 200 range attacks would be able to draw out ranged units. E.g. against Wood Elfs and other times when the opponent might take a defensive position without artillery the Cygor has enough range to force the opponent to abandon there defensive position and move forward a bit.

    Reducing it's range would put it's position in your main force, rather than far behind. From just behind your main line it can hurl rocks at juicy targets, and reinforce your army in melee when/where it's needed.
  • BerliozBerlioz ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 216
    edited December 2016
    erza321 said:

    Hammerers, Black Orcs and Bestigors are the only big armour piercing unit without a special bonus, the Greatswords and Graveguard with GW have anti infantry while the Wildwood Rangers have ani large. Although the Hammerers have a damage dealing trait, though I don't know what this trait actually does because it's usually on high damage low AP unit (such as the Forsaken and Chaos Spawn).

    I think that "damage dealer "is given to units that have high weapon damage, i may be wrong though
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 3,118
    Hammerers have the same issue than Chosen. They are pretty good and strong but expensive and easy to snipe. Hammerers already win vs any other infantry unit except Chosen GW, I doubt they would need anti-infantry trait....

  • Groudon59Groudon59 Registered Users Posts: 130
    edited December 2016
    I completely Agree with Gaussia , maybe changes like...

    Cygor: reduce range to 200 or 150
    Reducing its Ammunition to 5.
    increasing weapon strength to 440.
    Increasing Leadership back up to 80
    Increasing MA to 55,.
    Increasing MD to 43.
    Increasing CB to 35

    Their Just ideas, and we still need to take in the fact that we don't want to make the giant obselete and hopefully in the future the Ghorgon. But i think they're a step in the right direction and will most likely justify the whopping 1600 price point, even then increase it to 1800 point monster. plus it would make its passive of increasing wizards miscast more viable. and support a more aggressive play-style of the beastmen
  • MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 596
    edited December 2016
    I forgot about Trolls and Chosen. I recall somebody suggesting that Trolls get scaly skin, which would help. +2 morale wouldn't hurt either.
    Post edited by Mukip on
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,350
    Is it worth bringing up Iron Breakers in this thread, because if you get Iron Breakers your limiting your army to a defensive stance because offensive stats are somewhat underwhelming and your not going to go on the offensive any time soon due to them have a whopping charge bonus of about 2.
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Registered Users Posts: 441
    edited December 2016
    You should add trolls and bugman's rangers to the OP.'

    EDIT: And Beast and Dwarf Lords (regular version, which are uncommon now) should get potion access.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,416
    edited December 2016
    Riggsen said:

    VC - Dire Wolves should come down to 450 in line with warhounds which many have suggested should be 350/400.

    - Bats need their speed back

    - Terrorgheist needs a major buff or price reduction

    - Black Knights (Lances) down to 1100. Regular black knights and blood knights are much better for cost

    - Crypt Ghouls need weak against armour removed and price increase to 600 or a cost reduction to 450.

    bkack knights -100 cost is already mentioned as well as speed of bats back. dire wolves cost is fine as they have vanguard while Chaos doesnt have dogs with vanguard. crypt ghouls are ok for their role, crypt horrors are strong against armor as it's their role to fight armor. terrorgheist is ok considering the buff it can receive by vc spells and skills, like red fury+dance marabre+invokation of nekeh+mortis engine buffs+etc. if someone thinks a unit is weak then simply he has to look wider and see what other tool is availiable to each faction to use and suddenly units arent so weak he thought.
    Blood Knights and sword Black Knights are better for the cost? I dont believe they are, i kill them with many ways.
    Post edited by HolySaintKnight on
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
    Greenskins

    Goblins

    Decrease price to 275/250 they route so damn fast. Every other 300 cost infantry actually holds up for a little bit and is useful as a meat shield.

    Night Goblins

    Need more attack, should be like a cheap glass cannon unit.

    Goblin wolf chariot

    Not tested since the last patch tbh so maybe I'm wrong but they do basically no missile damage since they have like 6 archers in the unit so they need some melee capabilities.

    Trolls

    Increase armour, they kinda suck compared to crypt horrors and are extremely situational. A little more staying power would be useful and missile resistance.

    ALL THEIR CAV EXCEPT THE CHEAP ONES AND ORC BOAR BOY BIG UNS

    The mid range cav needs better stats and the 1000 guys need to be shock cav infantry killers. OBBBU should be more of a melee cav with less charge thats good in a grind. Reduce charge and ap slightly and buff ma/md.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    Greenskins already have the best lineup in the game. They really don't need any buffs
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 3,118
    They need some units nerfs and some units buffs. Some units are extremely OP and some units are meh.

  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    Nasty Skulkers are really OP. They beat just about everything. They have to be one of, if not the most cost effective units in the game.
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 3,118
    salsicha said:

    Nasty Skulkers are really OP. They beat just about everything. They have to be one of, if not the most cost effective units in the game.

    The problem with skulkers is exactly what you say, they are pretty good vs all kind of unit, pretty cheap and their active skill is simply great. Nerfing a bit skulkers and nerfing BBBU vs heavy cavalry, plus giving some buff to unused GS infantry and the unit balance will be done IMO. We will continue having some unused units in all roster but we wouldn't have any OP unit.

  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    Remember that a lot of lesser seen units have utility in the campaign and less in quick or custom battle. There are purposes to serve in total war beyond facing a full power absolutely equal doomstack led by another human.

    6 goblin spears can be useful under the right circumstances
    salsicha said:

    Nasty Skulkers are really OP. They beat just about everything. They have to be one of, if not the most cost effective units in the game.

    I'm playing skarsnik and I have to say that hasn't been my experience, if they were double the price with greenskins they'd be tough to justify in early game with their upkeep, and in late game i have better more ferocious options.

    Their slow skill for hunting down fleeing enemies is something i love though.

    They don't need a nerf. They do their job, and they're literally the only crooked moon option versus dwarves in early game, and on v. hard they still route quickly if misused.
  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    edited December 2016
    salsicha said:

    Greenskins already have the best lineup in the game. They really don't need any buffs

    I think greenskins feel pretty good right now. Both to fight with and fight against.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    Saphiron said:

    They don't need a nerf. They do their job, and they're literally the only crooked moon option versus dwarves in early game, and on v. hard they still route quickly if misused.

    That's really the problem with trying to talk about game balance from the SP point of view. "Early game" versus "late game" units has nothing to do with how balanced that unit is versus other factions. Really, you are just talking about the tech tree and the difficulty of the game. How easy the game feels early on in SP is determined by what tech tree branches you pursue and what branches the other factions are following in their tech trees. The actual stats on the unit are almost meaningless, just so long as every time you grow your tree you get slightly better units.
  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Registered Users Posts: 411
    Would Irondrakes fall into this thread (flamethrower not trollhammer). I find using Irondrakes to be tough in both SP and MP. Torpedoes are at least potent against large lords (mounted or monsterous). Furthermore, because flamethrower Irondrakes deal a lot of HP damage, but don't actually kill models often; I find that measuring their performance is difficult.
  • CA_AtoCA_Ato The Creative Assembly Registered Users, Moderators, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff Posts: 700
    Hi, is this a list of units spotted less in MP, SP, or in general?

    Not all mentioned units are used as rarely as suggested here - neither in MP nor in SP. Some are even in the top 20% of QB usage...

    I'll grab some data next week and we can chat about the units and characters that are in the bottom 10-20%.

    Kind regards, Ato
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 3,118
    edited December 2016
    The list is about MP I think. There are some units that are commonly used but they could be better and sometimes people only use it because there isn't any other option. For example, Beastmen archers are really horrible for their price but I'm pretty sure that this unit is pretty popular because beastmen players haven't any other option.

    Talking about the list:

    - Chaos Warriors: They are ok and they are balanced but they don't feel as good as Chaos Warriors GW Fulfilling their role and they don't feel good enough if you compare them with other Chaos infantry unit or similar units like Grave Guards.

    - Speamen (Shields): This unit is underestimated. Spearmen shielded are close to be as good as Swordmen vs light infantry, while they are anti large at the same time. People only don't pick them because regular spearmen at 300 gold are much more attractive.

    - Pistoliers: Nothing to say about them. I never pick them.

    - Helblaster Volley Gun: Expensive and performs horrible vs spaggethi lines. It's probably one of the more useless unit in MP.

    - Quarrellers GW: Even if the would cost the same than regular Quarrellers, I stil would pick regular Quarrellers in most of the cases. They are overpriced IMO and I'm pretty sure that they are totally unused in MO.

    - Hammerers: They are a pretty solid infantry unit but they suffer the same syndrome as Chosen. They are expensive and easy to snipe. Maybe this unit in other faction roster would be really good.

    - Corpose Cart: unused mostly because I prefer a necromancer on a cospose cart.

    - Gors: Gor Herd (shielded) are pretty solid but Gor Herd with dual Weapons are a bit overpriced IMO. Shielded version is more usefull 75% of the times and they are cheaper.

    - Cygors: they are the only artillery option for beastmen, so they are a pretty popular unit but not great and could get a small buff (more accuracy maybe). Anyway, they are decent IMO.

    (Will be great to talk about the units and characters that are in the bottom 10-20%, thanks!).

  • Groudon59Groudon59 Registered Users Posts: 130
    Cheers Ato i think its Multiplayer, cause Cygors are pretty poor unless you cheat them out (which you can't do anymore). Keen to see a list and start to fix the under-performing, overpriced, and overshadowed units currently in the game.
  • MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 596
    CA_Ato said:

    Hi, is this a list of units spotted less in MP, SP, or in general?

    Not all mentioned units are used as rarely as suggested here - neither in MP nor in SP. Some are even in the top 20% of QB usage...

    I'll grab some data next week and we can chat about the units and characters that are in the bottom 10-20%.

    Kind regards, Ato

    That would be great, thanks.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,665
    CA_Ato said:

    Hi, is this a list of units spotted less in MP, SP, or in general?

    Not all mentioned units are used as rarely as suggested here - neither in MP nor in SP. Some are even in the top 20% of QB usage...

    I'll grab some data next week and we can chat about the units and characters that are in the bottom 10-20%.

    Kind regards, Ato

    Sounds awesome. I'd really like to use the vargulf and black coach but they just seem so horrid for the price. I'd also be very interested to know which regiments of renown are getting a lot of play and which aren't.
    Space Frontier is a sci-fi themed board game I've designed for 2-4 players. Please take a look and enjoy our free Print-and-Play at FreezeDriedGames.com

    If you have any questions about tactics or mechanics in Total War Warhammer multiplayer, feel free to PM me.
  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Registered Users Posts: 1,087
    Busa1227 said:

    The list is about MP I think. There are some units that are commonly used but they could be better and sometimes people only use it because there isn't any other option. For example, Beastmen archers are really horrible for their price but I'm pretty sure that this unit is pretty popular because beastmen players haven't any other option.

    Talking about the list:

    - Chaos Warriors: They are ok and they are balanced but they don't feel as good as Chaos Warriors GW Fulfilling their role and they don't feel good enough if you compare them with other Chaos infantry unit or similar units like Grave Guards.

    - Speamen (Shields): This unit is underestimated. Spearmen shielded are close to be as good as Swordmen vs light infantry, while they are anti large at the same time. People only don't pick them because regular spearmen at 300 gold are much more attractive.

    - Pistoliers: Nothing to say about them. I never pick them.

    - Helblaster Volley Gun: Expensive and performs horrible vs spaggethi lines. It's probably one of the more useless unit in MP.

    - Quarrellers GW: Even if the would cost the same than regular Quarrellers, I stil would pick regular Quarrellers in most of the cases. They are overpriced IMO and I'm pretty sure that they are totally unused in MO.

    - Hammerers: They are a pretty solid infantry unit but they suffer the same syndrome as Chosen. They are expensive and easy to snipe. Maybe this unit in other faction roster would be really good.

    - Corpose Cart: unused mostly because I prefer a necromancer on a cospose cart.

    - Gors: Gor Herd (shielded) are pretty solid but Gor Herd with dual Weapons are a bit overpriced IMO. Shielded version is more usefull 75% of the times and they are cheaper.

    - Cygors: they are the only artillery option for beastmen, so they are a pretty popular unit but not great and could get a small buff (more accuracy maybe). Anyway, they are decent IMO.

    (Will be great to talk about the units and characters that are in the bottom 10-20%, thanks!).

    i think the CW(halberd) also need to be buff,like the cygor,CW(halberd) are cheapest anti large units for chaos,sometimes you don't have a choice to bring another anti large units.and chaos haven't missile INFS,so when the enemy monsters crushing your INFS lines in their INFS,your halbers just can't surround them and take a lot of damage from enemy INFS,so i think they need more MD and damage when large units.give them more chance to hit monster and deal some damage(because they really don't have many chances to hitting monsters)
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,416
    Kayosiv said:

    CA_Ato said:

    Hi, is this a list of units spotted less in MP, SP, or in general?

    Not all mentioned units are used as rarely as suggested here - neither in MP nor in SP. Some are even in the top 20% of QB usage...

    I'll grab some data next week and we can chat about the units and characters that are in the bottom 10-20%.

    Kind regards, Ato

    Sounds awesome. I'd really like to use the vargulf and black coach but they just seem so horrid for the price. I'd also be very interested to know which regiments of renown are getting a lot of play and which aren't.
    buff them with spells like red fury, dance macarbe etc.
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