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Lesser-spotted unit feedback

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  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    First I am surprised to all the likes this OP post got. Yes in general OP is *mostly* right but good deal of mentioned units are (as Ato mentioned) nor rare or unuseful. So I would like to see Ato's list of unused units very much and I'm looking forward to discussion.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    I would definitely say regular Chaos Warriors aren't terribly useful, but I can imagine lots of people using them because they don't know there are better options.

    Certainly most Greenskins cavalry, outside Wolf Riders and BBBU don't get much use.

    Regular Chaos Trolls don't really have much of a use. They can't beat heavy infantry (like Black Orcs) and any faction with missiles will just shoot them down. I'm sure now they they have been secretly buffed or Crypt Horrors have been secretly nerfed because they are very comparable now. You could definitely use them against VC. If people don't it's only because Giants do it better.

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 2,575
    edited December 2016
    My opinion:

    Beastmen

    Ungor spearmen(shields) - could probably use a small price drop like -25
    Ungor herd - stalk/vanguard are overpriced for most units currently, and this unit does not compare well to shielded gors at all. Vanguard should've been standard for all BM infantry for free I feel.
    Gor herd - losing shields and MD for MA and some damage + vanguard and 100 extra gold in price is not a good deal at all. I think they should be 550 max.
    Bestigor - they have blork stats on paper but perform exceptionally poorly for their price irl (due to loose formation or some hidden stat maybe). Should be cheaper or stronger.

    Pretty much the 2 good infantry choices are ungor spearmend and gor herd (shields) atm.


    Bretonnia

    Mounted Yeoman - not too bad, but imo bit too expensive for light cav that can mainly go for archers
    Mounted Yeoman Archers - kinda bad compared to other good skirmish cav like outriders, although still can be annoying when spammed
    Trrebuchet - one of the worst artillery pieces in the game imo

    Dwarfs

    Bugman's rangers - pretty much a joke unit since they're worse than normal rangers and more expensive. I really don't see what new role they can fill that's not already taken. Maybe make them an actualy viable hybrid unit or smth.
    Irondrakes - both versions are way too squishy for their high cost and low range. Imo they need ~2.5k hp. Trollhammers at least pack a decent punch, FLemethrower ones can maybe debuff leadership for some extra oomph or smth,
    Organ gun - Can do pretty good damage, but it's difficult to keep it firing for any significant amount of time. Better reload to get off at least some extra volleys would help.

    Greenskins
    Goblins - rout way too easily to be worth 300. Drop price to 250.
    Savage orcs - largely unused after the nerfs since they're not really any better than normal boyz at +100 gold. Need some buff or price drop
    Savage biguns - same deal
    Orc archers/savage orc archers - expensive but poor skirmishers, need to be either beter in melee to be a proper hybrid unit or a price cut. Making them actually good archers doesn't feel right.
    Savage orc boar boyz/savage boar boy biguns - traditionally inferior to the non savage brethren. Biguns do not even have anti large.
    Orc boar boyz - 16 MA is not doing them any favours (biguns have the anti large bonus to make up for poor stats).
    Goblin wolf chariot - its ranged dps is laughable and it's not good in melee
    Trolls - not terrible, but underused and could get some extra leadership

    (GS probably have the highest number of trash units, but they still have plenty of good units left after that)

    Empire
    Spearmen shields. Could probably use a -25 price drop.
    Pistoliers - decent damage but very short range an no AP, could probably at least get +20 range
    Hellblaster volley gun - issues similar to dwarven organ gun, higher rof and better penetration could help I think
    Hellstorm rocket battery - Sunmaker is bit too good, but norma battery is bad. Sunmaker needs a nerf and normal battery needs a buff.

    VC
    Skeleton spearman - too expensive for what they can do, -25 or 50 gold would do, especially given the lack of other anti large infantry in the roster
    Crypt ghouls - compare bit poorly compared to similar units e.g. savage orks that are not great themselves. Given that they are terrible vs anything with armor they should counter light armour pretty well (and not just barely break even)
    Hexwraith - There are much cheaper terror units and they don't have much else going for them. Bringing ethereal units is also a big risk in general.
    Vargheist - too expensive for what they can do. They need to either kill better or cost less. 1k gold unit that will maybe manage to take out a 500g archer is not exactly a great deal. Outclassed by new flyers like hawk riders and harpies that are nore useful overall
    Terrorgheist - worst and most expensive flyer in the game. Can't kill anything
    Black coach - it's not as bad as it used to be, but its actives need a complete rework as they are all over the place and lack any synergy

    WoC
    Chosen GW/Chosen Halberds - Thay are pretty good but easy to snipe. I'm reluctant to call for further melee buffs but maybe some spell resist would make them more usable.
    Trolls - same as GS trolls, bit underused, leadership buff would be nice
    DO Shaggoth - It has some niche usage, but it's too expensive for it, price --
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Registered Users Posts: 441
    edited December 2016

    stuff

    Better list than the OPs. I don't agree with the Organ Gun selection because it's simply bugged and has lousy targeting, not actually weak. Maybe broken animation or something, but it shoots way slower than listed, and doesn't benefit from Ballistic Calibration. And keeps trying to shoot targets that have been knocked back already.

    Outside of units, basic Beast and Dawi Lords, Gelt and Sigvald need help too. Potions for the first two, less suck for the last two.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    There's no way all those spearmen units listed are not used in multiplayer... Empire Spearmen not used in multiplayer? You have to be joking. I thought the point of the thread was calling out some underutilized units to suggest buffs to make them appealing in multiplayer, but goblins, and Ungor and Empire spearmen have to be among the most commonly used units.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 2,575
    Ungor and Empire spearmen are mostly used without shields. Shielded versions are rarely used. Goblins are only used for lulz.

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • instantSWinstantSW Registered Users Posts: 4
    Gaussia said:

    I think the current role of the Cygor (long range artillery) don't at all fit what kind of role it should have in the aggressive Beastmen army (in long ranged role also prevents it anti-caster aura to come into much use.

    I'd reduce it's range to around 200, and increase it's melee capabilities dramatically. It would be much like a Giant, but it's 200 range attacks would be able to draw out ranged units. E.g. against Wood Elfs and other times when the opponent might take a defensive position without artillery the Cygor has enough range to force the opponent to abandon there defensive position and move forward a bit.

    Reducing it's range would put it's position in your main force, rather than far behind. From just behind your main line it can hurl rocks at juicy targets, and reinforce your army in melee when/where it's needed.

    I think the Cygor should be able to advance forward while throwing (but not move backwards). It should not be effective as a simple stationary war machine, nor as a simple giant. I think people should be rewarded by a play style that makes use of both its ranged and melee capabilities, and that nice terror and anti-mage abilities. I think reducing ammunition on the cygor slightly while giving it more mobility while shooting would be a great way to emphasize an aggressive playstyle. Its problem is that if it chooses to shoot it inevitably gets left in the dust by the advancing beastman lines and then finds itself of limited usefulness once melee has begun because its like a minute away at least.
  • MrMecHMrMecH Registered Users Posts: 2,288
    edited December 2016
    Cygor
    - [soul eater] increase range to 200m
    - [soul eater] reduce leadership of wizard in range

    Razorgor Herd
    - add [thunderous charge] back
    - increase melee attack to 28
    - increase hit point to 192

    Centigor (normal and great weapon)
    - add [hide]
    - increase melee attack and melee defense 2 point

    Bestigor
    - increase speed to 33

    Gors Herd
    - add [stalk]
    - reduce cost to 550

    Ungor Raider
    - reduce cost to 425
    - increase missile range to 130

    Ungor Herd
    - reduce cost to 400

    Ungor Spearman (shield)
    - reduce cost to 350
    Post edited by MrMecH on
    SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 3,118
    edited December 2016
    @MadDemiurg

    Great post. I do agree with almost everything except:


    Beastmen

    Bestigor - They are pretty useful and after the patch they are able to win for a bit vs Greatswords (because Greatswords charge damage nerf and Frenzy Bug fixed). Gor Herd (shields) are probably a better option sometimes but Bestigor Herds are solid and a lot of players use them.


    Greenskins

    Goblins - I think they are ok. Get some chevrons and they become pretty decent and effective.
    Savage orcs - After the frenzy bug fix, they are better than regular boyz. They only need a bit more leadership IMO and skulkers nerf to make them more useful into the GS roster.
    Savage orc boar boyz/savage boar boy biguns - Savage BBBU are already good vs cavalry on prolongued melee combat. Please do not ask for antilarge for them because they will become even more OP than regular BBBU vs cavalry. They are pretty good vs heavy armored units but horrible vs light infantry, this is their only issue IMO.


    VC

    Skeleton spearman - they are not much worse than Swordsmen vs light infantry, plus they are antilarge. I find them ok.
    Post edited by Busa1227 on

  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,350
    For underused Dwarf Lords, theirs the generic Dwarf Lord and Ungrim Ironfist (who became redutentent after the arrival of Grombrindal)

    I wonder if the Dwarf Thane needs to on this list due to him being added to almost every other Dwarf army, although he doesn't do as much as other races Heroes. For example he doesn't have access to any mounts, he's not a duelist like some Heroes (The Goblin Big Boss and Banshee) and he causes no where near as much disruption or damage as a Gorebull (I still think giving the Thane Runes could fix this).

    The Flame Cannon is now almost useless against the Wood Elves, becuase almost every Wood Elf army has an equal range to and I find it's damage somewhat underwhelming. The reason I find the Flame Cannons damage underwhelming is because the Flame Cannon essentially fires a combination of a molten tar pit and a pool of boiling (that's also on fire), that's fired after being air pressured to the point the Flame Cannon itslef almost explodes.
  • GaussiaGaussia Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,260
    CA_Ato said:

    Hi, is this a list of units spotted less in MP, SP, or in general?

    Not all mentioned units are used as rarely as suggested here - neither in MP nor in SP. Some are even in the top 20% of QB usage...

    I'll grab some data next week and we can chat about the units and characters that are in the bottom 10-20%.

    Kind regards, Ato

    Would be really interesting to see some stats. Maybe you can include it if you do a summary of balancing of the last patch?
  • CA_AtoCA_Ato The Creative Assembly Registered Users, Moderators, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff Posts: 700
    Posted some more data on usage here.

    KR, Ato
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    MPf. List is not particularity useful, because you are counting lord+mount as separate unit. What difference does it make if karl franz is unused on horse/pegi when he's probably popular on griffon. Further more most people don't have todbringer.

    Further more some of units mentioned are useful but perhaps people don't know how to use them properly; I often used necromencer on corpsecart, busa too, which means that he's probably good. Mechanics of this game is pretty obscure, but cart provides regen same as necromancer and regen combos are sweet stuff for the VC.

    Weird how unholy loadstone cart is mentioned there too. I see them occasionally, they do buff and regen and are not bad units at all. Other two carts are for sure, bad /not good enough.

    Luminark/pistoleers/flame cannon. Well no surprise there. Lumi is expensive, very limited unit and promotes gen sniping anyway. Plus wasn't it ruined with nerf in latest patch? Afaik it misses a lot. Flame cannon is arty with low range, nuff said. Pistoleers are just ...low damage, threatened by ranged, fliers and dogs, low range, mostly not worth to bring. Skirmisher cav in this game is fairly limited anyway, probably deliberately and this is the worst example. Those guys need to hit really hard to be worthy of taking.

    Ghouls are generally unused so RoR as well, no surprise there. Chariot archers - well, all archer units with low unit model number are generally crap. Spider archers, well mtd. skirmishers are generally unpopular and this is in rush army maybe worse choice, wolf rider RoR archers have AP, no?

  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Registered Users Posts: 441
    I'm surprised the Corpse Carts are so unused...I generally use 1 in all my VC armies. Guess a bit more oomph on their buffs (probably more range, and a tad more speed) is in order.

    I don't see Flame Cannons ever being good without making them OP for MP. They are awesome in SP for the little that's worth.

    Luminark might need another price drop.

    Pistoleers are terrible. They need something like +2 AP damage at the very least, maybe 10 or 15 more range as well.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 2,575
    edited December 2016
    The only reason corpse cart is not popular is because it's slow. The buffs are good, you just don't want it to slow you down and zombie armies are bad in current meta. You can still use it to great effect in some MUs if you care to try.

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    edited December 2016
    lyminark could either get a big prize drop in the -200 range or a similar worthy stat boost, +300ap damage (keep in mind its role and fire rate) or increased accuracy so that it hits garanteed, or a rate of fire buff 10-20%

    for pistoliers I suggest buffing their normal damage by around 10, that way they can reliably eat away at low armor troops which they should be good against in the current setup (I think they should be AP but then they would compete with outriders, which are not awesomely strong anyway)

    karl franz, well, he is currently just a worse empire general, 5 less armor, iconic on deathclaw, but thats all, he doesn't bring any useful boni, which he should, he is supposed to be the best leader and politician in the old world, possibly the whole world. some army wide or battlefield buff for greatswords, reiksguard comes to mind, or a flat out copy of high king, or beloved son.

    bringing any of the sorcerors lords in their current state is akin to masochism, they are absolutely terrible, easy to kill, cant kill anything themselfes, and all their skills cost winds of magic, which you can allways better use on a regular sorceror, since both are similar strong, derp
    give sorceror lords a huge damage buff for their damaging magic, one or two magic skills, that don't need winds of magic, a sniping tool, anything like that goes, either that, or make them better in combat


    just wanted to say at the end: see, I told you so, 3 of the 5 units I kept complaining about for being UP are on that list, lymilark, pistolier, sorceror lords, dgk and greatsword. now I know some of you may breath through their noses on the last 2, but demis are supposed to be a whole tier above everyone elses cav, they aren't, and greatswords were okish until woodelf got buffed, but are still outperformed by halberdiers on campaign, due to general skills, and that makes no sense
    Post edited by Lord_Nathanael on


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    edited December 2016
    @MadDemiurg Greatswords being worse than halberds in campaign is just due to game design, not balance. Its a completely separate issue and won't be solved by a buff or need to the base unit stats. I am surprised to see Demis though. I blame that on the persistent goon squad meta.

    @CA_Ato if the lists were a little longer I have the feeling I would see more versions of Chaos sorcerer lords... probably all of them.
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Registered Users Posts: 441

    @MadDemiurg Greatswords being worse than halberds in campaign is just due to game design, not balance. Its a completely separate issue and won't be solved by a buff or need to the base unit stats. I am surprised to see Demis though. I blame that on the persistent goon squad meta.

    I think you meant to respond to Lord Nat.

    Demis are not on the list, that's just Lord Nat being Lord Nat. Greatswords and DGK are in a great spot in MP, and are constantly used in both Quick Battle and tournaments.

    I don't think anyone is going to disagree that Pistoliers are horribad or the Luminark isn't exactly amazing for the cost.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    Where on earth you see demis /greatswords? Am I looking at another list?
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,873
    Empire:
    1.
    -Reiksguard : players ( i guess ) don t pick em because you don t have so much obvious utility

    Idea: Give Franz an trait like "the emperor" , which would attach frenzy to Reiksguard when his hp drop below 75 % + 10 ldrship passive.
    2.
    -helbardiers : decent unit , they just die too fast.

    idea: +15 armor (+ a bit more armored models ofc) to represent their more "elite" status
    3.
    -Spearmen with shields: +10 armor to make the 100g viable and + armor to swordsmen with a bit nerf to their MD

    4.
    -Pistoliers are just too expensive for what they do ( dmg wise)
    idea: Increase their ap dmg or add more ammo to them + add to their combat stats +8 MA +4 CB and +5 ldrship to represent them beeing young nobles eager to fight , not only skirmish.

    5. Hellblaster volleygun : Needs to penetrate multiple layers of enemys to make them the infantry killer it should be.

  • snowsnowsnowsnow Registered Users Posts: 79
    edited December 2016
    Maybe the reason that Luminark is on the list is that because of it's RoR version. 99% of the situations there is only 1 Luminark needed when a player want to bring some sniping firepower, and RoR version is way better than normal one with a little more price. Maybe Corps cart(heal version) has similar problem too. It has not a best, but not the worst supporting ablility(heal and stat buff). However, a necromancer on corps cart already fill their role with cheaper price + magic, so there is no room for them. If there is no Corps Cart mount for necromancer, VC players will use Corps cart for blob strategy I guess, although it is less efficient than before.
  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    edited December 2016
    People often ignore the fact that quick battle and campaign are different.

    Like some units are meant to be low tier trash units. They shouldn't go toe to toe with anything except trash. They're filler. And we NEED filler in SP.

    Filler will rarely be used in a 20 vs 20 custom battle composed of high tier units though.

    Some hints may not see much use in MP, but are used heavily in SP.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    The filler units are useable in MP, they are just really cheap.
  • MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 595
    Saphiron said:

    People often ignore the fact that quick battle and campaign are different.

    Like some units are meant to be low tier trash units. They shouldn't go toe to toe with anything except trash. They're filler. And we NEED filler in SP.

    Filler will rarely be used in a 20 vs 20 custom battle composed of high tier units though.

    Some hints may not see much use in MP, but are used heavily in SP.

    Whether or not any particular unit gets a buff or nerf is not particularly relevant to single player, since SP isn't particularly balanced anyway given things like Honest Steel providing +12 melee stats to spearmen, etc and tech trees skewing the unit balance. You end up overpowered relative to the computer anyway so relatively minor MP balancing isn't going to take away from your single-player experience.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,373
    just wanted to add:

    The data alone doesn't represent whether the unit is overperforming or underperforming i hope its not the metric ca uses to balance the units..if yes then plz look at some balancing and design talks by some devs form gdc..because in this case it could by many other reasons including other factions units op/up,thier relations with magic and abilities,faction flavor,how cool a unit looks,personal preferences for various reason or some people are just using with knowing units performance..

    i wanted to give example of coh2 again so the data showed that allied had 70% winrate while axis had 40% (and it was obvious allies were op )But factions pickrate and search rate suggested(data) that Axis was leading by(80%)........so why..???? nobody any idea including devs....so it was concluded people liked to play mayb play villian more,axis were more cool faction to play or whatever.

    Balance Is A Lie

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,873
    Vampire Counts

    -Hexwraiths : Their poor melee stats and ldrship aswell as CB are preventing them from beeing an pick ,exspecially when they can get hardcounterd by Magic dmg

    idea: Increase ldrship by +8 and CB by +15

    -Bloodknights : relativly fine as they are , their hardcounter is arti, my idea would be to give them +10 armor

    -Vargheists: too expensive , they can t fight long in a prolonged melee ,and they die too fast.

    Idea : Drop their price by 100g or look at my suggestion for an Vampiric trait

    -Direwolfes (normal) waaay too expensive for what they do , they even get destroyed by Handgunners and crossbows in melee without doing any substantial dmg. Price drop and maybe more weapon strength and CB?

    Bats: Why do nt they have 80 models like dire wolfes, that would come handy.

    - Black Knights with lances and barding : price drop by 100 g or improve their stats to
    idea for improved stats : increase MA decrease MD a bit to make them a true shock cav.

    Black Knights : they should have much better combat stats ,for them beeing melee cav.
    idea: Increase MA and MD substantually ,but nerf WS a bit and add +6 CB.

    Fun idea : Give and "encourage" for skelettons only to Koenigstein stalkers

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/187190/vampiric-trait#latest
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    Surprisingly good list, few remarks;
    Bats... -50 price drop would be simpler fix imo.
    K. Stalkers are indeed overpriced, but encourage would be maybe OP with the undead army, they don't run, it's not an utility there - and if you put -100 on price instead, they become must have ...-50 maybe?
    Direwolfs need bug which prevents them of damaging while pursuing fixed first, but some stat buff may be necessary, they struggle with any unit really.
    BK with lances, indeed overpriced for what they offer and especially compared to normal knights.
    BK are very cheap for armored cav, so I'm not sure they need more buffs.
    - 100 to clack coach chariot.
    - buff to TG or -200 price



  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,873
    I imagined the koenigstein Stalkers beeing the elite of the otherwise crappy skelettons.

    I do nt want price drops for units , i want them pay for their costs by adding abilities and stats
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,456
    Call me crazy, but I always took miners to be Dwarf equivalent to Goblins, never bother using them.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Donorma_IronshieldDonorma_Ironshield Registered Users Posts: 383
    edited December 2016
    daelin4 said:

    Call me crazy, but I always took miners to be Dwarf equivalent to Goblins, never bother using them.

    Miners are suppose to fill the role of cavalry for the Dwarfs. If they worked like they did in TT, they would be a more important pick but CA represented https://i.imgur.com/GpPVZdM.jpg by giving them Vanguard which is fine for a pre-picked unit since you're really out of options on how to represent it, but it is still horrible representation of what miners are.

    Miners should be a expensive map wide summon for Dwarf Generals IMO.
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