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More hope for Naval Warfare?!

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  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,118
    There should be a living Gallery for works of art like these.
  • Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806
    This gallery is awesome Red Dox. Thanks for posting that... I would love to see battles in Total War be like this and at least some battle maps looking like this. INSAAANE!!! :D
  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Registered Users Posts: 653
    Wow, thats a propper port assault =D
  • BiesBies Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,167
    Beautiful <3

    "I shivered at the sight of her - her beauty far beyond that of mortal man. But her soul glowed with an inner darkness that chilled my very core."









  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,982
    edited March 2017
    Lets talk about Naval Battles Mechanics

    Many are assuming naval battles for game 2 because game 2 will introduce new continents.

    So these are some of my inquiries because naval battles:

    - Does every race have navy?
    How about Beastmen, Wood Elves, Ogre, etc..?

    - How much variety of ships will each race have?

    - For flying units, will they use their current animations in naval battles also?
    *How about dragons, will they land on ships also or will they breath on them? (Not all dragons can breath fire)

    - How will magic going to work?
    For example;
    *Comet of Cassadora, Foot of Gork, etc... once it hits the water, will it create big waves that will sink nearby ships?
    *Burning Head, once it hit the ships along its path, will the ships going to burn alongside those onboard?
    *How about summoning spells? Will zombies going to appear on enemy ships' deck? How about Manticore, Cygor?

    - How will CA going to implement big units like giants, minotaurs, trolls, etc..?
    *Almost all Ogre units are big, right?

    - When boarding, different units have different animations, right?
    *Will all units going to hop?

    - Will there be transport ships again?

    - Will there be Kraken that will attack randomly?

    - How about Cavalry? Questing Knights, Grail Knights, etc?
    *Dismounted?

    - Will we going to see swimming units(Lizardmen)?
    *amphibians?
    Post edited by jamreal18 on
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,876
    Hopefully we will get those naval and naval assault battles...
    and hopefully CA takes he freedom to make the ships a bit "rounder" ;)
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,534
    jamreal18 said:

    Lets talk about Naval Battles Mechanics

    - Does every race have navy?
    How about Beastmen, Wood Elves, Ogre, etc..?

    Your two examples don't, as far as I recall. Though with the later able to go even to Naggaroth via the world-roots, I'm not sure if they need them. As long as a mechanic exists, even if it's dreadfully slow, for a race to cross the continents, they don't need a navy, really. Some would though, Empire, High and Dark Elves, Bretonnia, probably Tomb king and VC...Dwarfs for sure
    jamreal18 said:


    - How much variety of ships will each race have?

    Well the GW-versions sure didn't, I think. (battlefleet gothic was okay, though 40K, obviously)
    I myself am not overly fussed about having say 20 types of ships. Give me 5-6 distinctly different ones for a race and I'm good to go.
    jamreal18 said:


    - For flying units, will they use their current animations in naval battles also?

    Errr, assuming the naval battles will have them, yes? Flapping wings is flapping wings...
    jamreal18 said:


    *How about dragons, will they land on ships also or will they breath on them? (Not all dragons can breath fire)

    Well aware. :lol:



    If you mean them doing fly-byes, I don't think so, though.
    jamreal18 said:


    - How will magic going to work?
    For example;
    *Comet of Cassadora, Foot of Gork, etc... once it hits the water, will it create big waves that will sink nearby ships?
    *Burning Head, once it hit the ships along its path, will the ships going to burn alongside those onboard?
    *How about summoning spells? Will zombies going to appear on enemy ships' deck? How about Manticore, Cygor?

    Good question, going to guess a miss is a miss, waves might jolt a ship, graphically, but sink sounds odd. Summoning spells will likely not work.
    jamreal18 said:


    - How will CA going to implement big units like giants, minotaurs, trolls, etc..?

    I doubt a dedicated navy will use such units, to be honest.
    jamreal18 said:


    - When boarding, different units have different animations, right?
    *Will all units going to hop?

    Like regular troops do now? I can't imagine it'll work that differently from Atilla or Rome 2, the guys jump over and then fight as infantry usually does? :)
    jamreal18 said:


    - Will there be transport ships again?

    I sure hope so, and weaker ones too, love sinking them. ;)
    jamreal18 said:


    - Will there be Kraken that will attack randomly?

    Hope not, I'd like my admiral NOT to die from a random creature.
    jamreal18 said:


    - How about Cavalry? Questing Knights, Grail Knights, etc?

    On transports, transports cannot board or be boarded (or be boarded but then the boarders will just kill weak crew and set the ship ablaze), easy to sink though. Ergo, this would make it sooo much easier to balance transports vs navies. :tongue:

    That, at least, is my thinking.
    Don't worry.
  • AxelradAxelrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 632
    At this point, I would assume that we'll get the old school "autoresolve only" naval battles. Last I heard, CA wasn't able to confirm 3D naval battles because the license for Warhammer navies is actually handled separately, and currently belongs to a game called Man O' War: Corsair. Unless CA and GW have worked out some sort of agreement since then, CA literally *can't* include 3D naval battles due to licensing restrictions.
  • obippoobippo Member Registered Users Posts: 2,259
    edited March 2017
    Axelrad said:

    At this point, I would assume that we'll get the old school "autoresolve only" naval battles. Last I heard, CA wasn't able to confirm 3D naval battles because the license for Warhammer navies is actually handled separately, and currently belongs to a game called Man O' War: Corsair. Unless CA and GW have worked out some sort of agreement since then, CA literally *can't* include 3D naval battles due to licensing restrictions.

    This is a common misunderstanding that Ive seen around this forum a lot. They didn't said they couldn't use that license because other studio was using it already, they actually said they could use it if they wanted to *even if* another studio was using it, BUT they didn't want to work with that license. (for whatever reasons, not specified in the article)
    Always be aware when a Content Refusing Troll Brigade (CRTB) representative is near. Contact your local Witch Hunter for further info.


  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,876
    edited March 2017
    jamreal18 said:

    Lets talk about Naval Battles Mechanics

    Many are assuming naval battles for game 2 because game 2 will introduce new continents.

    So these are some of my inquiries because naval battles:

    - Does every race have navy?
    How about Beastmen, Wood Elves, Ogre, etc..?

    GW didn't need to write navies for all of them (since there was no game system) and sometimes use story devices as replacement for navies.
    Wood Elves for example use the World roots, who conveniently go almost everywhere the We need to be to fight other races .
    I do think that this is a solve problem thou.
    The basic style can be base on H&D Elves and then give it a fitting WE twist.

    - How much variety of ships will each race have?

    Man O' War had 3-5 types of ships for each race featured.
    I think this can be easily expended, if they wish to do so.
    example:
    The Empire has War galleries, Wolf Galleries, Greatships, a gallery which is just one big cannon and I think a morta version.

    Now we add a version with Hellstorm rocktes and a Greatship with Hellblaster broadsides (my perosnal dream) and you already have a nice selection.

    You could add a "magical" ship, mirroring the war machines like Luminark of Hysh
    or they use different crews to add variety.

    Either way, I think you can easily end up with a nice number of different ships for your fleet.

    - For flying units, will they use their current animations in naval battles also?
    *How about dragons, will they land on ships also or will they breath on them? (Not all dragons can breath fire)

    Flying monsters could attack the crew on deck, or have animation where they attack the hull of the ships.


    - How will magic going to work?
    For example;
    *Comet of Cassadora, Foot of Gork, etc... once it hits the water, will it create big waves that will sink nearby ships?
    *Burning Head, once it hit the ships along its path, will the ships going to burn alongside those onboard?
    *How about summoning spells? Will zombies going to appear on enemy ships' deck? How about Manticore, Cygor?


    MoW had its own magic spells at its time so there were things a bit different.
    For TW WH I would wish for context sensitiveness.
    Windpush for example should be usable as speed buff for your own ships.

    Fireballs or Burning Head should cause fire.
    Things like the comet, the foot ect could simply work as "big arty hits" simlar as you describe: they make hard damage if they hit the ships but splash damage can hurt ship hulls ect.
    The zombies probably should clime up the ships and attack it as boarding party, since letting them swim in the water to it seems ill practical.

    manticores can fly, and would hence not have that problem.
    Cygors would need a suitable replacement.

    - How will CA going to implement big units like giants, minotaurs, trolls, etc..?
    *Almost all Ogre units are big, right?

    They could be buffing up the boarding skills of ships (orges would be a nightmare to board for sure).
    It could be in fact a feature of a special BM ship that it has minotaures as part of its crew to board (*WH BM navy look like a monster collection itself)-

    - When boarding, different units have different animations, right?
    *Will all units going to hop?

    The hoping was a solution for a number of problems with boarding in the past and is likely to stay.


    - Will there be transport ships again?

    If CA wants (it is probably still in the engine)

    - Will there be Kraken that will attack randomly?

    The Warhammer world would allow such feature yes, but I would then suggest a "controlled" randomness simlair to Empire at War, where monster and civilian spawn points exist and were know to all involved.

    - How about Cavalry? Questing Knights, Grail Knights, etc?

    On transtports?
    Well the troop size and the lack of horses would mean they lose advantages they have on land and hence perform worse.

    As regular ship crews, they could be interesting thou.


    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,876
    obippo said:

    Axelrad said:

    At this point, I would assume that we'll get the old school "autoresolve only" naval battles. Last I heard, CA wasn't able to confirm 3D naval battles because the license for Warhammer navies is actually handled separately, and currently belongs to a game called Man O' War: Corsair. Unless CA and GW have worked out some sort of agreement since then, CA literally *can't* include 3D naval battles due to licensing restrictions.

    This is a common misunderstanding that Ive seen around this forum a lot. They didn't said they couldn't use that license because other studio was using it already, they actually said they could use it if they wanted to *even if* another studio was using it, BUT they didn't want to work with that license.
    correct, a shame that the mistransplantation (so I hope that is, since my polish is none existing) is far spread.


    (for whatever reasons, not specified in the article)

    My guess is that they wanted to avoid some problems you would have with MoW, like Wardances being part of the High Elv navy, despite that they are clearly WE in the 8th, and rather use the more modern Dreadfleet as inspiration point.
    I have no evidence thou.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,982
    Actually, I prefer Dreadfleet....

    Their ships are all awesome but only 1 per race...

    I found warhammer wiki that each race has several ships of their own. Is that ManOWar?
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,293
    edited March 2017
    jamreal18 said:

    Lets talk about Naval Battles Mechanics

    Many are assuming naval battles for game 2 because game 2 will introduce new continents.

    So these are some of my inquiries because naval battles:

    - Does every race have navy?
    How about Beastmen, Wood Elves, Ogre, etc..?

    Woodelves have afaik no ships, but travel though the worldroot system


    Ogres should have no active naval, but should be able to build ships if necessary. I mean how hard can it be for world traveling mercenaries, when Greenskins can do it? Same goes probably for Beastmen. If needed, they will build them. I mean just look at "WAAAGH Grom"

    He did not start planning for a naval assault. He just wrecked the Old World and then in search for better enemies, willed by Gork & Mork, build a armada and set sail into the unknown. Which cost him at least half his Waaagh before he landed on the shores of Ulthuan but he got there to fight the pointy eared bastards (there exists a small campign for the fight at Yvresses, don't know the CJ number right know but that should be mentioned in my LL speculation topic were I listed some of the greenksin/elfs that fight along/against Grom).

    jamreal18 said:

    - How will CA going to implement big units like giants, minotaurs, trolls, etc..?
    *Almost all Ogre units are big, right?
    - How about Cavalry? Questing Knights, Grail Knights, etc

    Ogres or other MI should have no problem fighting on deck of the ships. Since there is not much "specific" lore around it, we can assume that the ships in TWW would be big enough to field them on deck. People who play naval TT combats mostly use custom ships so the "whos on deck" question varies form player to player or used rule system.

    The GW rules for that would be

    Real monsters who can not fly, that would be the real headache if it comes to active naval combat. In older times Monsters had usualy a unit size of ten. Which would make the work within the limitations. Or we could just skip them in that case and assume they are under deck in the cargobay.

    Sidenote: Yes, it exists a offcial ruleset for naval battles in WHFB scale in the old "Generals Compendium". Its a older piece (2003) and you have to build ships and stuff for yourself but if you have a willing playgroup, it could be fun making your own ships and crews for boarding or landfall campaigns.
    It is a small community that embraces this, but they are still active on some part. Which also explains why other miniture studios like https://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/index.php?cPath=25&osCsid=0ri7d6tqlrpflmcif50vq6ise6
    can still make money with good WHFB adaptable sailors & pirates ;)
    jamreal18 said:

    - Will there be Kraken that will attack randomly?

    Well, if we get naval action some random shennenigans with seamonsters would be appreciated. Maybe some wandering wormsigns, I mean waves(!) who show that something nasty is moving in a certain direction ^^



    Awesome fanmade Diorama: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521085.page


    ------Red Dox
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,520
    World roots have no place in TW and they've already designed 1 WE ship skin for the campaign map.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Registered Users Posts: 1,487
    To anyone who missed it I posted some warhammer ships from the data. These ships happen to be assigned to certain units in game. Which would mean those ships are crewed by the most appropriate unit from the indivivdual roster. This does not suggest auto resolve. (Example: Greatswords crew the Greatship)
    Ships HERE-->
    I found more proof of possible naval combat. In the Assembly kit.
    Bretonnia
    wh_main_brt_shp_buccaneer
    wh_main_brt_shp_corsair
    wh_main_brt_shp_galleon
    Chaos ships
    wh_main_chs_shp_bloodship
    wh_main_chs_shp_deathgalley
    wh_main_chs_shp_norscan_longship
    Dwarven Ships
    wh_main_dwf_shp_dreadnaught
    wh_main_dwf_shp_ironclad
    wh_main_dwf_shp_monitor
    Empire
    wh_main_emp_shp_greatship
    wh_main_emp_shp_wargalley
    wh_main_emp_shp_wolfship
    Stupid Orcs
    wh_main_grn_shp_bigchukka
    wh_main_grn_shp_drillakilla
    wh_main_grn_shp_hulk
    Vampire ships
    wh_main_vmp_shp_direwolf_ship
    wh_main_vmp_shp_griefship
    wh_main_vmp_shp_vargalley
    Meat shields
    wh_main_shp_transport

    They have variables of 'heavy ship' "medium ship" and "light ship". It just so happens that these variables are tied to how ships take damage in battle and their ramming power. Also the ships I listed are ticked as can be boarded. Obviously boarding is an action on the sea and not an auto-resolve thing. :wink:
  • JollyRogeroJollyRogero Member Registered Users Posts: 670
    Hah! "Stupid Orcs" - did you add that to the list or is it actually listed as such from the data?
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Registered Users Posts: 1,487

    Hah! "Stupid Orcs" - did you add that to the list or is it actually listed as such from the data?

    At the time I got wrecked by 5 orc stacks so yeah I did that lol.
  • AxelradAxelrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 632
    obippo said:

    This is a common misunderstanding that Ive seen around this forum a lot. They didn't said they couldn't use that license because other studio was using it already, they actually said they could use it if they wanted to *even if* another studio was using it, BUT they didn't want to work with that license. (for whatever reasons, not specified in the article)

    It's not because the other studio is using it - licenses aren't single use items. It's simply because CA doesn't currently have the naval license. As far as anyone has announced, CA has only acquired the license for Warhammer Fantasy Battles, which wouldn't allow them to have 3D naval battles. For that, they'd need to go and acquire the same license that Man O' War: Corsair currently has.

    I'll admit my wording was a bit fuzzy on the issue (not exactly a legal forum here). Assuming that GW would grant it (there are a few reasons they might not want to), CA could totally go acquire the license and implement naval battles, but as much as I'd like that, I'm skeptical that it'll actually happen. I honestly doubt that they're important enough to the games for CA to shell out extra cash just to get permission to include them, in addition to how expensive all their fancy models would be to produce.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Registered Users Posts: 1,487
    Axelrad said:

    obippo said:

    This is a common misunderstanding that Ive seen around this forum a lot. They didn't said they couldn't use that license because other studio was using it already, they actually said they could use it if they wanted to *even if* another studio was using it, BUT they didn't want to work with that license. (for whatever reasons, not specified in the article)

    It's not because the other studio is using it - licenses aren't single use items. It's simply because CA doesn't currently have the naval license. As far as anyone has announced, CA has only acquired the license for Warhammer Fantasy Battles, which wouldn't allow them to have 3D naval battles. For that, they'd need to go and acquire the same license that Man O' War: Corsair currently has.

    I'll admit my wording was a bit fuzzy on the issue (not exactly a legal forum here). Assuming that GW would grant it (there are a few reasons they might not want to), CA could totally go acquire the license and implement naval battles, but as much as I'd like that, I'm skeptical that it'll actually happen. I honestly doubt that they're important enough to the games for CA to shell out extra cash just to get permission to include them, in addition to how expensive all their fancy models would be to produce.
    I'm not sure why you think GW would not want CA to have the licence, I would like to know. As far as I'm concerned GW would love for CA to have licences for naval battles. Why? Becasue this game is successful. Not to mention the relationships and communication between the two companies that develop when you get a licence deal and make a product. If I'm a GW guy, I would be screaming WHY NOT? You want people to get your licence because their product might be successful, which benefits you in all kinds of ways. If nobody wants your licence then nobody likes your stuff, if you are stingy with your licence then you are missing out. So would GW give CA the licence? YES they would. It's just matter of CA's willingness to actually do it.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,293
    Axelrad said:


    It's not because the other studio is using it - licenses aren't single use items. It's simply because CA doesn't currently have the naval license. As far as anyone has announced, CA has only acquired the license for Warhammer Fantasy Battles, which wouldn't allow them to have 3D naval battles. For that, they'd need to go and acquire the same license that Man O' War: Corsair currently has.

    Well, for starters, the already programmed ship desigs for TWW are not looking like Man O War
    https://imgur.com/a/fjAjA#bREkO4R
    so licence in that case should be no problem.

    Second and more importantly, GW seems not to care in the slightest about these license problems (because in the grim dark future there is only money and the laughter of the chairman board).
    Battlefleet Gothic:Armada for example, was released in April 2016
    http://www.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/
    In May 2016 we already saw this announcing
    http://www.battlefleetgothic-leviathan.com/index.php

    Or: While Relic is making 40k Dawn of War in the meantime we had
    -40k Eternal Crusade (going now F2P...)
    -40k Armageddon
    -40k Sanctus Reach
    -40k Regicide
    -40k Dark Nexus (is it dead already?)
    and that list does not include the 30k titles, or Space Hulk, or Inquisitor or Necromunda which still are all in the same universe but *could* be sorted under their "other" license brands.

    ------Red Dox
  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,118
    Red_Dox said:
    I'd totally missed that - just a shame it was not Man O' War, although I did find this http://manowargame.com

    *Howling into the void*
  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,118
    edited March 2017
    ooops double post

  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,876
    In case of CA willingness:
    I think there is simply a sooo GOOD opportunity for CA to do it.

    Game 2/3 will have to not only deliver new contend, new map, new races ect, but people would also expect to see new features. especially since I guess CA will go for full price on all games.

    And bringing tactical navy combat would be a huge feature, since it basically means you get a new game.

    Not bringing it has a number of consequences, that I hope outweigh for CA the cost/problems.
    First:
    Dark and High Elves have a huge emphasis on them being naval powers and they "marines" even appear as TT units and I suspect them to come to TW as well. Not having naval combat would be a disservice to those 2 races, who conveniently enough will come together.

    Second:
    Gameplay will suffer very old problems for TW.
    One thing that always bugged me in Rome I and Medieval II was the fact that you could only win the seas by throwing more money at it then your enemies. Unlike the land where your tactical decisions could make you triumph even outspend/numbered ect, on see you where at mercy of auto resolve (a harsh mistress...) and I can do without the feeling that my army that is highly elite is at the mercy of auto resolve, whenever I travel the seas from the Old to the New World or other way around.

    This would limited the actually options one has in a campaign, since set up the Empire in Lustria will not be a option, if your Karl Franz and your 2nd best General/Army is at the mercy of not running into a enemy on sea or risk to be wiped/hurt base on the autoresolve.
    Unless your are already have the old world under your control.

    Think about how Empire would have been, if it wouldn't have navy combat:
    would you even consider to go to india/america if you are not a faction which has land there already?
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,520
    edited March 2017
    So SiWi, do you think having navies in an only auto resolve capacity is possible if we don't get naval battles? Or will we just get transports as we currently have?
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,876
    They could do navies, even it is still auto resolve thou I would wonder what would be the point of that.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,520
    They'd be stronger than transports in an auto resolve and could escort armies Rome 2 style to allow safer passage for invasions.

    I'd still like playable battles, just musing on the possibilities.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,876
    Sure but that would just result in your building the biggest ships available, without ever considering tactics and still would require some work in terms of unit design that I wonder if CA says "no navy combat" why they then would bother to make the autoresolve navy.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • Blood_DragonBlood_Dragon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 882
    I was just looking around in the pack files, and I found some interesting unit cards.

    Dwarf ships:
    "Monitor"
    "Dreadnaught"
    "Ironclad"

    Vampire Counts ships:

    "Griefship"
    "Vargalley"
    "Direwolf Ship"

    Empire:

    "Wolf Ship"
    "Great Ship"
    "War Galley"

    Chaos:

    "Norscan Longship"
    "Bloodship"
    "Deathgalley"

    Greenskins:

    "Bigchukka"
    "Drillakilla"
    "Hulk"















    "Victory or death, there is no other outcome. Honour is everything. I am a knight of the Ordo Draconis, and I will achieve perfection."
  • MakoTheMakoMakoTheMako Registered Users Posts: 1,246
    Probably just getting ready for Game 2

    die about it

  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,534
    Been shown before quite a few times. Here's the link people regularly use, with the Bretonnians as well. Think those got uploaded may last year...

    https://imgur.com/a/fjAjA#pCuVa92
    Don't worry.
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