Advise on using Orion

Danielatar

Hey,

I've been playing the mini campaign +75 turns single and a co-op campaign for +150 turns with Orion and the Welves.
I've found him to be somewhat squishy and sometimes unsure of his melee fight animations since it seems that he is always throwing his damned spears no matter if I unselect auto ranged attacks or using the melee attack command.
Just unsure when he is "meleeing" and not poking silly lookingly with the spear, I find his best ability that his javelins/spears knockdown smaller heroes/legends.
Is he meant as a infantry counter and unit buffer only or also useful against enemy heroes/lords?

Thus the point is this: How do I use him most efficiently?

Cintego

I've had similar issues but with my game play style I keep him with my ranged units in the event that the enemy breaks my anvil(elf infantry) before my hammer hits(wild riders) he can intercept the first units through and allow my archers to pull back and readjust. after he runs out of ammo ill know if my line is going to hold or not and if I see that its ok ill throw him into melee

Setrus

I'm not sure I know. He doesn't like being shot at, but is so big it's hard to avoid it whether in melee or at range. On the other hand he does some good amount of damage both in range and in melee, so I kind of go with Cintego's thinking. Sometimes I alternate between the yellow melee tree and the red ranged so I keep him at the back where he can boost the ranged troops while at the same time making him a good interceptor.

endurstonehelm

I'm curious about this too. For the campaign, I've focused mostly on his unit buffs (you could spend 28 skill points between both red trees), but he has some nice individual buffs (Melee attack/melee defense buff in particular better than most legendary lords have). I find the hounds to be a very useful ability as the animation takes effect without a delay. The hawk is cool, but an enemy unit could move out of it before it takes effect. Anath Raema, the end of the individual missile tree, is nice with its hold and missile defense debuff, but I find the unit buffs even more important (so I bring waystalkers for Anath Raema).

By the way, in total war, how do you select melee attack for a hybrid character like Orion or the Glade Lord?

when playing table top wood elves, we rarely used special characters. When we did use special characters, I generally treated Orion as the leader of my melee forces. My archers would shoot at the enemy coming across the board, and Orion and friends would fight the first enemies to make it across the battle field.

From a melee perspective, I would view Orion as a melee damage dealer. He is not a durable anvil such as a Treeman though. Instead, use Orion to kill things while the treeman pins things. Both cause terror. The treeman has the armor that Orion lacks, and Orion can penetrate armor unlike the treeman.

His speed is such that he can outrun any infantry in the game. He does do more melee damage than missile damage, but his missile weapon does enough damage that you could be happy with him not going into melee until the enemy is about to break.

cornishr

He's my quarterback.

Cintego

he can easily intercept and let your archers reposition which works the best so you can stack your front lines and not hold any units in reserve to get the most out of your ranged units so long as wild riders are moving to take out the enemy archers your able to get the clear ranged advantage. The only other role I use him in is to lock up a lord for a min or 2 so they dont rip into my lines

Setrus

endur said:

By the way, in total war, how do you select melee attack for a hybrid character like Orion or the Glade Lord?

Either click the cross swords button down at the bottom when you have him selected or click 'f'.

daelin4

I'm pretty sure I did it by holding the Alt key, which acts as a hold equivalent to the actual melee toggle. It's a classic TW key bind.

As for Orion, I usually keep him back as a spellcaster; the rest of his skills are blue campaign buffs as well as red battle mode army-wide benefits. I never found him effective in personal combat, so I end up just doing that.

Danielatar

So what I get

cornishr said:

He's my quarterback.

That's the point most of you seem to make and it would seem that's what he's best for.

Any idea how he fares against the stronger cavalry in game like Demigryphs and Blood Knights?

Danielatar

daelin4 said:

I'm pretty sure I did it by holding the Alt key, which acts as a hold equivalent to the actual melee toggle. It's a classic TW key bind.

As for Orion, I usually keep him back as a spellcaster; the rest of his skills are blue campaign buffs as well as red battle mode army-wide benefits. I never found him effective in personal combat, so I end up just doing that.

Too bad really since I'd love to see him also as a melee monster which his lore states him to be.

Then again every single heroes lore tends to make them sound like they're the Achilles of WH world.

Cintego

Danielatar said:

daelin4 said:

I'm pretty sure I did it by holding the Alt key, which acts as a hold equivalent to the actual melee toggle. It's a classic TW key bind.

As for Orion, I usually keep him back as a spellcaster; the rest of his skills are blue campaign buffs as well as red battle mode army-wide benefits. I never found him effective in personal combat, so I end up just doing that.

Too bad really since I'd love to see him also as a melee monster which his lore states him to be.

Then again every single heroes lore tends to make them sound like they're the Achilles of WH world.

Keep in mind he can be a melee monster but what you give up are major army buffs

Danielatar

Cintego said:

Danielatar said:

daelin4 said:

I'm pretty sure I did it by holding the Alt key, which acts as a hold equivalent to the actual melee toggle. It's a classic TW key bind.

As for Orion, I usually keep him back as a spellcaster; the rest of his skills are blue campaign buffs as well as red battle mode army-wide benefits. I never found him effective in personal combat, so I end up just doing that.

Too bad really since I'd love to see him also as a melee monster which his lore states him to be.

Then again every single heroes lore tends to make them sound like they're the Achilles of WH world.

Keep in mind he can be a melee monster but what you give up are major army buffs

But can he get even close to the level of Grimgor or the Slayer King?

Uppslitaren

I try to get mostly much as the ranged red trees as quickly as possible except for speed and keeping him as a support role mostly at the start. But honestly, once you level him up quite a bit and can focus on the yellow and red melee tree he does become quite good in close combat as well.

When he's leveled up a bit, around 20+ or so I put him on the frontlines, spamming his abilities and spearing enemy lords/heroes or monsters during their advance. He does knock people back which is very useful. I put him in many duels and so far he is undefeated. Though i do advice equipping him properly. Give him a healing potion or include a mage that can heal him in case you have to fight like kholek or something.
In my campaign he has way over 7k HP, 20-25% melee and ranged resistance and he's unbreakable. What's not to like?
I treat him as what he is, a hybrid.

Cintego

I dont know about that lol, Thats a pretty tall order and i haven't compared thos stats but he can be tanky enough to deal with other LL's maybe not grimgor,kholec and ungrim but the AI doesnt usually dump all their points into yellow so he may not be as strong as them but if built for combat he should be able to kill them vs the AI

Danielatar

Cintego said:

I dont know about that lol, Thats a pretty tall order and i haven't compared thos stats but he can be tanky enough to deal with other LL's maybe not grimgor,kholec and ungrim but the AI doesnt usually dump all their points into yellow so he may not be as strong as them but if built for combat he should be able to kill them vs the AI

I know it's a high order ^^
Mostly it's against my pal's who I play versus sometimes who aren't dum dum's like the AI.

Cintego

Ahhh well short of going LLvLL throw alot of spears at grimgor and get him down to about 30% before he gets to orion and you got this

Setrus

daelin4 said:

I'm pretty sure I did it by holding the Alt key, which acts as a hold equivalent to the actual melee toggle. It's a classic TW key bind.

You can do either. 'f' toggles melee mode on and off, alt+right click gives a single melee order, I believe.

RowYerboat

Orion will never be Grimgor or Khazrak, obviously. But I find he is very good in melee, even without yellow line talents, as long as he has decent-to-good equipment. He seems much more effective in melee than at range for me. Don't send him solo into the teeth of multiple of the enemy's best units, but he can certainly do some damage, and certainly does very well against heroes/lords. His abilities are quick casting, so he can still use them while in melee. Of course he's even better with heals from a Life mage and whatever buffs are available (Thorn Armor is easy to get, cheap, and low cooldown). Pretty sure he'll benefit from melee buffs from Branchwraiths, also.

Erminaz

I've always kept him with my anvil when I've played but I tend to just focus on the red skill tree. I also never leave home without a Spellsinger of life so he is usually getting healed with the anvil when it finally is engaged.

cornishr

Danielatar said:

daelin4 said:

I'm pretty sure I did it by holding the Alt key, which acts as a hold equivalent to the actual melee toggle. It's a classic TW key bind.

As for Orion, I usually keep him back as a spellcaster; the rest of his skills are blue campaign buffs as well as red battle mode army-wide benefits. I never found him effective in personal combat, so I end up just doing that.

Too bad really since I'd love to see him also as a melee monster which his lore states him to be.

Then again every single heroes lore tends to make them sound like they're the Achilles of WH world.

Yes, i've never been a fan of the over the top fluff. Every unit is the toughest unit ever in the world's history, capable of beating 50 million enemies single handedly whilst eating breakfast.

No. Less is more.

Danielatar

cornishr said:

Danielatar said:

daelin4 said:

I'm pretty sure I did it by holding the Alt key, which acts as a hold equivalent to the actual melee toggle. It's a classic TW key bind.

As for Orion, I usually keep him back as a spellcaster; the rest of his skills are blue campaign buffs as well as red battle mode army-wide benefits. I never found him effective in personal combat, so I end up just doing that.

Too bad really since I'd love to see him also as a melee monster which his lore states him to be.

Then again every single heroes lore tends to make them sound like they're the Achilles of WH world.

Yes, i've never been a fan of the over the top fluff. Every unit is the toughest unit ever in the world's history, capable of beating 50 million enemies single handedly whilst eating breakfast.

No. Less is more.

What do they say about the Bretonnian peasant bowmen?

That the elves envy their mud digging muscles? Or that a merry band of peasants once held singlehandedly a waaghhh in check at some pass?

psychoak

I've had no trouble with an unimproved Orion holding up in melee. He's not as good some, but in combination with a healer, he does just fine. His unit buffs are simply epic, and you do yourself a great disservice if you don't max out red. My Eternal Guard go toe to toe with high level Chaos and Vampire units, and my archers simply lay waste to their armies while they're tied up.

I've seen no point in going the blue route. You can obtain insane regeneration rates without it, and lightning strike is relatively useless when you can kill enemies so efficiently. Invisible vanguard deployed units take care of siege weaponry, initiate combat safely, and draw armies in before they join up with reinforcements. I've taken four full but partially damaged Orc armies without any lost regiments, and melted two high level VC stacks with most units over 80%, I'm not even using Treemen, just one dragon as my solitary amber unit.

Horus168

I tend to give him a potion of toughness, rather than his horn, to mitigate his squishiness.

Axikus

Hmm... I use him to greet minotaur charges head-on. And hold up up to three units of infantry all by himself. But I have a Lore of Life Spellsinger in his army, so there's that.

Oh, by the way, getting that armor upgrade on him was probably the point where he started wrecking everything.

BoogieRooster

I run him up to my forward deployed deepwood scouts, waywatchers and waystalker(s) at the start of the battle along with a spellsinger of shadows. I use him together with wild riders to stop the faster enemy units from catching my skirmish force. He does serious damage with his two spells and spear. I then start skirmishing and retreating back towards my eternal guards and glade guards. Once the melee starts I position him slightly ahead of the spear line and keep him there. I put his points to melee skills and ranged army buffs.