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Warriors of Chaos Overhaul

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  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users

    I disagree with your point on no Archaon infighting.

    If Archaon going to kill everyone who opposes him then that is going to reduce the ranks which is what attrition does anyway.

    Lol Yeah, well that would definitely contribute to even more attrition but it was a joke about the feature itself. My point was that Archaon should get a trait that makes him immune to infighting attrition because he's the dark god's chosen champion, and the majority of chaos followers revere him. He's like 'king chaos".
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    edited March 2017

    I disagree with your point on no Archaon infighting.

    If Archaon going to kill everyone who opposes him then that is going to reduce the ranks which is what attrition does anyway.

    Lol Yeah, well that would definitely contribute to even more attrition but it was a joke about the feature itself. My point was that Archaon should get a trait that makes him immune to infighting attrition because he's the dark god's chosen champion, and the majority of chaos followers revere him. He's like 'king chaos".
    I like this idea but lets give this trait to every chaos lord so we don't have to deal with infighting at all because it's f---ing stupid.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users

    I disagree with your point on no Archaon infighting.

    If Archaon going to kill everyone who opposes him then that is going to reduce the ranks which is what attrition does anyway.

    Lol Yeah, well that would definitely contribute to even more attrition but it was a joke about the feature itself. My point was that Archaon should get a trait that makes him immune to infighting attrition because he's the dark god's chosen champion, and the majority of chaos followers revere him. He's like 'king chaos".
    I like this idea but lets give this trait to every chaos lord so we don't have to deal with infighting at all because it's f---ing stupid.
    I'd say Archaon gets it from the start, and chaos lords can earn it through leveling up and winning battles.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited March 2017

    I disagree with your point on no Archaon infighting.

    If Archaon going to kill everyone who opposes him then that is going to reduce the ranks which is what attrition does anyway.

    Lol Yeah, well that would definitely contribute to even more attrition but it was a joke about the feature itself. My point was that Archaon should get a trait that makes him immune to infighting attrition because he's the dark god's chosen champion, and the majority of chaos followers revere him. He's like 'king chaos".
    I like this idea but lets give this trait to every chaos lord so we don't have to deal with infighting at all because it's f---ing stupid.
    I'd say Archaon gets it from the start, and chaos lords can earn it through leveling up and winning battles.
    No, I 'd rather they scrap the feature. I read no where in the lore that WoC were fighting each other just because they were in close proximity!!!
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    The daemons of chaos should have the infighting attrition.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users


    I love his reasoning for no infighting attrition for the beastmen.' More cooperative play style ".
    They are not exclusively known to "work together" but the chaos warriors are. :lol:
  • defenderofberkdefenderofberk Posts: 33Registered Users

    Alright I have the beginnings of an idea... Maybe Chaos need a new type of agent that infiltrates cities to followers in a city, increasing chaos corruption in the area, and giving Chaos some dark favor

    I disagree with your point on no Archaon infighting.

    If Archaon going to kill everyone who opposes him then that is going to reduce the ranks which is what attrition does anyway.

    The people challenging Archaon won't be his chaos knights,chaos warriors, forsaken, marauders, trolls, etc. He's also the undisputed Everchosen. People are NOT going to oppose him.
    The dark gods are very fickle. And chaos isn't known for backstabbing to gain power? Tzeench rewards those who use cunning strategies to gain knowledge/power

  • defenderofberkdefenderofberk Posts: 33Registered Users
    I like your new agent idea though
    that's pretty cool
  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Posts: 827Registered Users
    My biggest thing with chaos is I want it to be really powerful, but I want them to at

    I disagree with your point on no Archaon infighting.

    If Archaon going to kill everyone who opposes him then that is going to reduce the ranks which is what attrition does anyway.

    Lol Yeah, well that would definitely contribute to even more attrition but it was a joke about the feature itself. My point was that Archaon should get a trait that makes him immune to infighting attrition because he's the dark god's chosen champion, and the majority of chaos followers revere him. He's like 'king chaos".
    I like this idea but lets give this trait to every chaos lord so we don't have to deal with infighting at all because it's f---ing stupid.
    I'd say Archaon gets it from the start, and chaos lords can earn it through leveling up and winning battles.
    I like this. i'm fine with infighting early on, but it shouldn't apply at turn 200 with four chaos stacks united under one legendary lord.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    If anyone should have infighting it's the greenskins. CA is pulling one over on us with this joke.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Just a brain storm here, but what do you think of agents being able to sow discord in an a lords army and temporarily control it. Or making a lord completely defect depending on the agents skill and controlling that army permanently.

    Just a random thought, but that could be fun.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Lets say if your hero is maxed out on some manipulation skill tree. You see an ogre army and you want them to turn around the raid their own clan, or attack other armies. Sort of like a possession.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Posts: 824Registered Users
    edited March 2017

    Just a brain storm here, but what do you think of agents being able to sow discord in an a lords army and temporarily control it. Or making a lord completely defect depending on the agents skill and controlling that army permanently.

    Just a random thought, but that could be fun.

    I believe I mentioned that in my response above...
    Rifugio said:

    ...But, the idea is for Chaos heroes to have significant abilities, as the Enemy Within. For example being able to disrupt alliances, subvert lords and their armies to their cause and perhaps unleash terrible vengeance in settlements if given enough time and resources to operate.

    Also if you missed it first time - you might want to take a look at

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/1745498/#Comment_1745498
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Rifugio said:

    Just a brain storm here, but what do you think of agents being able to sow discord in an a lords army and temporarily control it. Or making a lord completely defect depending on the agents skill and controlling that army permanently.

    Just a random thought, but that could be fun.

    I believe I mentioned that in my response above...
    Rifugio said:

    ...But, the idea is for Chaos heroes to have significant abilities, as the Enemy Within. For example being able to disrupt alliances, subvert lords and their armies to their cause and perhaps unleash terrible vengeance in settlements if given enough time and resources to operate.

    Yup, sure enough, you said it. I was thinking of taking the idea of agent manipulating other heroes a bit further.

    For example being able to disrupt alliances, subvert lords and their armies to their cause and perhaps unleash terrible vengeance in settlements if given enough time and resources to operate.


    I think that's a great idea. But one that has to be thought of actually happening in game. Like what special diplomacy options would chaos have to disrupt other alliances? What really disrupts alliances is possessing an army and raiding their buddy's land or completely attacking them. To be fair I think this should be a temporary thing. Maybe 10 turns. To keep it simple and to keep it slightly fair. Becasue it would be a load of fun and very powerful. So there is multiple factors I see going into this, hero's level, a maxed out manipulation skill, and temporary control.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Also if you missed it first time - you might want to take a look at

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/1745498/#Comment_1745498


    The problem with this is that there is no base or premise for any political moves whatsoever. The game as zero politics. Chaos nor vampires can meddle in the affairs of nobles houses.

    But how about this: Give chaos the option of giving "money' to any faction in exchange for +3 to +10 corruption depending on the amount. Just like the event when playing other races when you have the choice between taking money and corruption or refusing both.

    eh? Except obviously with this, you would be able to choose the amount of corruption according to the amount of "money' you "gift". :naughty:
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Sigvald the Magnificent wants or has a palace of his own. And more evidence and proof for chaos not exactly being the horde portrayed in the game right now. And what do you know, ...it's a fortified citadel lol.
    Lore video time marked at the spot I'm talking about.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    Rifugio said:

    Okay maybe not Setting Politics Aside for now...

    For forces like Chaos I imagine their covert cults when established, either focusing on undermining Public Order to lead the populace to messy chaotic style rebellions. Or more subtly concentrating on the corruption of Noble houses (VC would share a similar ability). Here established regions would revert to their original factions control, without the Chaos/Rebel outward appearance.

    They would be able to engage in politics with other similar factions against the original owner, and also if left unchecked (and supported by the enemy within) could spread consolidating their hold on the regions of the province (domino style).

    If in the early stages this stage the plots were uncovered (by Heroes being deployed to the region). This process could be stopped with the Chaos/VC operation shutdown and the cults effectively destroyed. If left supported for longer Chaos could up the stakes of their mission and attempt to convert gradually further towards Chaos.

    The point of the latter being Chaos or the VC would also be able to actively meddle in the politics of other races from within, to create mistrust whilst also being able to siphon of more of the regions resources etc for their own use.

    This is likely being a tad optimistic with the current political AI, so some work would need to be done but it may be possible to also simplify the impact of VC/Chaos influence.

    *Dreams*
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    Also I can't emphasize this enough. Maruders need more variations.


    I say marauders need more head variants, but the chaos warriors could use the them as well. As they too have too many no helmet replicas as well (bold guy and mo hawk). I or someone else could mod it if CA actually modeled more head variants for marauders. Also their color coordinated red cloaks and decoration is off putting. So I recomment this mod for recoloring. It's essential for me now. --> Archaon's Host - Recolor http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=718191447

    Well in addition to more variations, can you finish the texture on this guy. The death magic chaos lord. His cloak looks unfinished. It's too shiny or glossy.



    CA do you hate chaos or something?
  • RifugioRifugio Member Posts: 824Registered Users
    edited March 2017

    The problem with this is that there is no base or premise for any political moves whatsoever. The game as zero politics. Chaos nor vampires can meddle in the affairs of nobles houses.

    But how about this: Give chaos the option of giving "money' to any faction in exchange for +3 to +10 corruption depending on the amount. Just like the event when playing other races when you have the choice between taking money and corruption or refusing both.

    eh? Except obviously with this, you would be able to choose the amount of corruption according to the amount of "money' you "gift". :naughty:

    Yes, what I am talking about would be expanding both Politics, Heroes and (most probably) the Outpost system into something a lot more involved - not just for Chaos.

    Gifting corruption for money is an good mechanism but, that will currently only buy you rebellion. I am going further in suggesting Chaos actually taking control of Lords, Armies and Regions from within. Not temporarily. Initially it may be just politically but if left unchecked then whatever Chaos God gets a foothold in a region - and possibly province with which to control at first largely non chaos armies (under the guise of whatever faction they take over). Then depending on what is built in the cities adding chaos cultists, warriors and finally with gates demons - at which point they will be under the Chaos Gods banner, all pretense gone.

    This would be a key way that Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch would operate and grow - less so for Khorne and Chaos Unidivided which I'd imagine would still primarily be more expansion through the battlefields and horde.
    KGpoopy said:

    *Dreams*

    Yes probably - but we still have two games to go so why not aim high?
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    Also I can't emphasize this enough. Maruders need more variations.


    I say marauders need more head variants, but the chaos warriors could use the them as well. As they too have too many no helmet replicas as well (bold guy and mo hawk). I or someone else could mod it if CA actually modeled more head variants for marauders. Also their color coordinated red cloaks and decoration is off putting. So I recomment this mod for recoloring. It's essential for me now. --> Archaon's Host - Recolor http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=718191447

    Well in addition to more variations, can you finish the texture on this guy. The death magic chaos lord. His cloak looks unfinished. It's too shiny or glossy.



    CA do you hate chaos or something?
    ... I think it's because it's made of human skin.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,070Registered Users
    I was given this thread link so i'll later copy paste what i wrote in my closed thread.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    Rifugio said:

    The problem with this is that there is no base or premise for any political moves whatsoever. The game as zero politics. Chaos nor vampires can meddle in the affairs of nobles houses.

    But how about this: Give chaos the option of giving "money' to any faction in exchange for +3 to +10 corruption depending on the amount. Just like the event when playing other races when you have the choice between taking money and corruption or refusing both.

    eh? Except obviously with this, you would be able to choose the amount of corruption according to the amount of "money' you "gift". :naughty:

    Yes, what I am talking about would be expanding both Politics, Heroes and (most probably) the Outpost system into something a lot more involved - not just for Chaos.

    Gifting corruption for money is an good mechanism but, that will currently only buy you rebellion. I am going further in suggesting Chaos actually taking control of Lords, Armies and Regions from within. Not temporarily. Initially it may be just politically but if left unchecked then whatever Chaos God gets a foothold in a region - and possibly province with which to control at first largely non chaos armies (under the guise of whatever faction they take over). Then depending on what is built in the cities adding chaos cultists, warriors and finally with gates demons - at which point they will be under the Chaos Gods banner, all pretense gone.

    This would be a key way that Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch would operate and grow - less so for Khorne and Chaos Unidivided which I'd imagine would still primarily be more expansion through the battlefields and horde.
    KGpoopy said:

    *Dreams*

    Yes probably - but we still have two games to go so why not aim high?
    Yeah why not? I was talking about my dreams though.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    KGpoopy said:

    Also I can't emphasize this enough. Maruders need more variations.


    I say marauders need more head variants, but the chaos warriors could use the them as well. As they too have too many no helmet replicas as well (bold guy and mo hawk). I or someone else could mod it if CA actually modeled more head variants for marauders. Also their color coordinated red cloaks and decoration is off putting. So I recomment this mod for recoloring. It's essential for me now. --> Archaon's Host - Recolor http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=718191447

    Well in addition to more variations, can you finish the texture on this guy. The death magic chaos lord. His cloak looks unfinished. It's too shiny or glossy.



    CA do you hate chaos or something?
    ... I think it's because it's made of human skin.
    Kemmler has human skin on him and it's not all glossy and weird looking.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Rifugio said:

    The problem with this is that there is no base or premise for any political moves whatsoever. The game as zero politics. Chaos nor vampires can meddle in the affairs of nobles houses.

    But how about this: Give chaos the option of giving "money' to any faction in exchange for +3 to +10 corruption depending on the amount. Just like the event when playing other races when you have the choice between taking money and corruption or refusing both.

    eh? Except obviously with this, you would be able to choose the amount of corruption according to the amount of "money' you "gift". :naughty:

    Yes, what I am talking about would be expanding both Politics, Heroes and (most probably) the Outpost system into something a lot more involved - not just for Chaos.

    Gifting corruption for money is an good mechanism but, that will currently only buy you rebellion. I am going further in suggesting Chaos actually taking control of Lords, Armies and Regions from within. Not temporarily. Initially it may be just politically but if left unchecked then whatever Chaos God gets a foothold in a region - and possibly province with which to control at first largely non chaos armies (under the guise of whatever faction they take over). Then depending on what is built in the cities adding chaos cultists, warriors and finally with gates demons - at which point they will be under the Chaos Gods banner, all pretense gone.

    This would be a key way that Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch would operate and grow - less so for Khorne and Chaos Unidivided which I'd imagine would still primarily be more expansion through the battlefields and horde.
    KGpoopy said:

    *Dreams*

    Yes probably - but we still have two games to go so why not aim high?
    Keep in mind chaos undivided is not in line with Khorne, it's championed under all 4 dark gods, so trivializing them to khorne levels of campaign play is incorrect. As I said, they can have mechanics representing all four gods, even if it has to be to a lesser degree. Chaos Undivided is not as plain and narrow a concept as CA and you might think. And the ironic thing about it being simplified to khorne levels of campaign play is that it's secretly a Tzeencth thing.

    As anyone might know reading my posts, I'm all for politic intrigue in game. But I'm simplifying my thoughts and thinking how it can actually be done in a way that translates to the way TWwarhammer is and is going to be. So when I say agents manipulating heros to join their cause, it's done in the same way assassinating them would be except there is an additional option. Or when I say control a lord's army, I mean use a hero to manipulate a lord the same way as he would another hero. Becasue that's as far as I would take it, and that's as far as I think CA would take it.

    I do hope they really consider political intrigue, but the way they simplified everything, I think there is no way we could get it. Maybe that's why skaven are in the 2nd game now, so they can make a robust and interesting political thing. But most importantly for politics, you have to present it well. Short clips, the UI and art.....
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    GUYS
    @Combat_Wombat
    @Rifugio

    You guys suggested having agents infiltrate a settlement and cause chaos, corruption and politic stuff. Well how about this?

    Give chaos heroes the ability to infiltrate a settlement for X amount of turns. After X amount of turns there will be a new building that replaces a current building in that settlement. This new building will be one that sucks money out of the faction and cause chaos corruption. -1200 gold and +5 corruption. These buildings can cost a chunk of money to get rid of. And your agent might get wounded and fail the mission in the process.

    What do you think?
  • RifugioRifugio Member Posts: 824Registered Users

    ...Keep in mind chaos undivided is not in line with Khorne, it's championed under all 4 dark gods, so trivializing them to khorne levels of campaign play is incorrect. As I said, they can have mechanics representing all four gods, even if it has to be to a lesser degree. Chaos Undivided is not as plain and narrow a concept as CA and you might think. And the ironic thing about it being simplified to khorne levels of campaign play is that it's secretly a Tzeencth thing.

    I see the current implementation as being a placeholder and the main in game threat for Game 1 but I'd like that to change later. Instead I'd like to see Chaos Undivided as an endgame objective for Chaos players starting with 4 Chaos factions one for each of the 4 Chaos Gods. The reason I say Chaos undivided would not be focusing on the subtle politics is slightly different from Khorne as by that time in the game a unified Chaos would already be an extremely powerful faction (effectively combining 4 powerful individual factions) and no longer need to hide in the shadows so the focus would likely switch to more open conflict. Having likely tired of the battle for souls and minds to further their individual aims.

    I'm not convinced it's a good idea to start the campaign with players able to select Chaos Undivided, if they other 4 Gods are developed into factions in their own right. The problem I have with it is it's one of the doomsday scenarios already set in motion - which is how it stands in game 1.

  • RifugioRifugio Member Posts: 824Registered Users

    GUYS
    @Combat_Wombat
    @Rifugio

    You guys suggested having agents infiltrate a settlement and cause chaos, corruption and politic stuff. Well how about this?

    Give chaos heroes the ability to infiltrate a settlement for X amount of turns. After X amount of turns there will be a new building that replaces a current building in that settlement. This new building will be one that sucks money out of the faction and cause chaos corruption. -1200 gold and +5 corruption. These buildings can cost a chunk of money to get rid of. And your agent might get wounded and fail the mission in the process.

    What do you think?

    My idea is a little more involved to allow Chaos to establish an outpost with potentially multiple elements added over time (rather like buildings but on a smaller scale). I guess this could be done by having a building slot taken up by Chaos but I'd suggest a few changes.

    1) It would not replace a building in that settlement - it would be an additional building
    2) It would be hidden at least until an enemy agent is actually able to detect it or it is used to mount some large scale assault
    3) The focus of activity for the infiltrated building should be selected from several different options. For instance it could be used to siphon gold, equally you could pour gold into it in an attempt to subvert various factions, or create some dastardly scheme (e.g. opening a major demonic portal or unleashing some great plague...).

    You could roll these up and simplify by just spreads chaos corruption, but that feels too generic for me.

    The reason I come back to outpost; however is that it could add a lot to game-play to have outposts for other races, and some races will need outposts anyway - so why have two different mechanics.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Rifugio said:

    ...Keep in mind chaos undivided is not in line with Khorne, it's championed under all 4 dark gods, so trivializing them to khorne levels of campaign play is incorrect. As I said, they can have mechanics representing all four gods, even if it has to be to a lesser degree. Chaos Undivided is not as plain and narrow a concept as CA and you might think. And the ironic thing about it being simplified to khorne levels of campaign play is that it's secretly a Tzeencth thing.

    I see the current implementation as being a placeholder and the main in game threat for Game 1 but I'd like that to change later. Instead I'd like to see Chaos Undivided as an endgame objective for Chaos players starting with 4 Chaos factions one for each of the 4 Chaos Gods. The reason I say Chaos undivided would not be focusing on the subtle politics is slightly different from Khorne as by that time in the game a unified Chaos would already be an extremely powerful faction (effectively combining 4 powerful individual factions) and no longer need to hide in the shadows so the focus would likely switch to more open conflict. Having likely tired of the battle for souls and minds to further their individual aims.

    I'm not convinced it's a good idea to start the campaign with players able to select Chaos Undivided, if they other 4 Gods are developed into factions in their own right. The problem I have with it is it's one of the doomsday scenarios already set in motion - which is how it stands in game 1.

    There is no other factions for WoC, regardless of the specific god units. WoC are all under Archaon. And everything under Archaon is Chaos undivided. Since this entity is united by all the dark gods, they can share the personalities and this can be represented in gameplay. Not hard to understand. The daemons of chaos are to be separated into 4, as they are no where near united and they fight each other eternally.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Rifugio said:

    GUYS
    @Combat_Wombat
    @Rifugio

    You guys suggested having agents infiltrate a settlement and cause chaos, corruption and politic stuff. Well how about this?

    Give chaos heroes the ability to infiltrate a settlement for X amount of turns. After X amount of turns there will be a new building that replaces a current building in that settlement. This new building will be one that sucks money out of the faction and cause chaos corruption. -1200 gold and +5 corruption. These buildings can cost a chunk of money to get rid of. And your agent might get wounded and fail the mission in the process.

    What do you think?

    My idea is a little more involved to allow Chaos to establish an outpost with potentially multiple elements added over time (rather like buildings but on a smaller scale). I guess this could be done by having a building slot taken up by Chaos but I'd suggest a few changes.

    1) It would not replace a building in that settlement - it would be an additional building
    2) It would be hidden at least until an enemy agent is actually able to detect it or it is used to mount some large scale assault
    3) The focus of activity for the infiltrated building should be selected from several different options. For instance it could be used to siphon gold, equally you could pour gold into it in an attempt to subvert various factions, or create some dastardly scheme (e.g. opening a major demonic portal or unleashing some great plague...).

    You could roll these up and simplify by just spreads chaos corruption, but that feels too generic for me.

    The reason I come back to outpost; however is that it could add a lot to game-play to have outposts for other races, and some races will need outposts anyway - so why have two different mechanics.
    I would not mind it being done that way actually. But I was thinking on slightly more simple terms and something that really emphasizes the infiltration and it's corrupting nature. Replacing the buildings would be necessary technically as well. As it would directly affect the opposing faction and they can correctly respond to it, by tearing it down or consequently keeping it there (maybe because they can't afford to stabilize their region). Again I'm all for outposts, as I have made a thread about it as you know. So an outpost could be cool.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,070Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    CW in campaign maintain the horde but also MUST be able to occupy province capital settlements on map, they aren't beastmen not to be able to, as well as razing it to a Chaos portal which can already do, a portal spreads more Chaos influence while an occupied settlement provides garrison buildings, walls, can not make a Chaos influence building so portals must be around to maintain influence levels, provide an increase to replenishment as in an awakened tribe region, can not make any economy buildings, can make demonic summoning buildings which charge after killing captives in battles and summon Chaos daemons. These buildings have an upkeep to maintain also need Chaos influence more than 50% to function.

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