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Warriors of Chaos Overhaul

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  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Ok well losing an entire stack is a bit much, but it would make the dark gods scary. But I would have to agree with Combat that it would be unnecessarily frustrating to players to lose an entire stack out of nowhere. But that chaos spawn video and lore text with the dark god laughter idea really balances it for me :lol:
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    KGpoopy said:

    What's the incentive to complete these missions other than the normal boost to attributes and negative penalties to failing? I think there would have to be a exciting reward or penalty to high dark god pleasure and low dark god pleasure.

    Maybe the rewards/punishments can be random.
    Punishment
    -Another chaos stack appears to fight you
    -an agent betrays you
    -you lose an entire stack because the general turn into a chaos spawn LOL
    - infighting attrition :wink:

    Rewards
    -No infighting attrition
    -Upkeep of monsters reduced greatly
    -Able to recruit Daemon Princes and daemons
    -Recruitment costs reduced
    -the ability to mark your troops and turn them into nurgle warriors, slaanesh warriors, or khorne berserkers, or tzeench warroirs

    I like the idea of more chaos armies popping up to challenge you. It's all either norscans or bird mam or quest battles. Norscans are unfun to play against anyway and the last two are fleeting moments. I sent to fight MORE upitty chaos lords.

    How about spawn chaos daemons to fight? and WoC stacks can be a nice placeholder.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    But that chaos spawn video and lore text with the dark god laughter idea really balances it for me :lol:

    Out of all the things we have talked about this would be too much to ask for :blush:
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,860Registered Users
    No, losing armies is not automatically bad for the game.

    Here's in more detail how I'd envision this to work:

    1.Any character who spends time in heavily corrupted areas or fights against chaos-aligned armies has a chance of picking up chaos-corruption traits

    2.Any corruption trait acquired equals a free skill point, the chaotic energies in one way or another improve the character

    3.Any trait acquired will however also increase the chance of picking up more corruption traits. So if the base chance of chaotic corruption is like 2% per triggering situation another 2% might be added by any corruption trait

    4.After the third trait acquired the next time the character is in a triggering situation he might either
    -pick up more corruption traits and free skill points, the sixth trait so acquired will however always lead to one of the below two
    -fall to the Ruinous Powers and become a Chaos Renegade
    -collapse under the multitude of chaotic energy and turn into Chaos Spawn which removes both the character and his army from the game

    5.As long as the Chaos Renegades exist, all character of the faction they spawned from are checked every other turn for accumulating corruption, so if you had several corrupted characters on the breaking point, this might turn the whole faction to Chaos in short order

    6.Chaos Renegades are hostile to all other factions, including WoC, BM and Norscan ones and potentially the renegades of another race, but they will form together with Chaos cultit of the same race ("Empire Renegades", "Bretonnia Renegades" etc.)
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Yeah the severity of the penalties should be met with interesting consequences.

    Also I like the slower approach to corrupting agents, but being hostile to chaos? Probably would require the chaos renegades to be it's own separate faction. Which should be simple on CA's part. Maybe they can be the same as the chaos rebels faction.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    Yeah the severity of the penalties should be met with interesting consequences.

    Also I like the slower approach to corrupting agents, but being hostile to chaos? Probably would require the chaos renegades to be it's own separate faction. Which should be simple on CA's part. Maybe they can be the same as the chaos rebels faction.

    A more simpler way would be....
    So when I say agents manipulating heros to join their cause, it's done in the same way assassinating them would be except there is an additional option. Or when I say control a lord's army, I mean use a hero to manipulate a lord the same way as he would another hero. Becasue that's as far as I would take it, and that's as far as I think CA would take it.


    But if CA wants to go the slow appoarch to manipulating and corrupting agents then I'm all for it. :smile:
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,014Registered Users
    Even if it's a slow process you've probably spent a lot more time on your lords and heroes getting them leveled up than this process of losing then would take. Maybe a compromise of only lords level 10 or lower could get corrupted but still... Losing the whole army is bad. Maybe we could do a 1/5 of the army breaks off and runs away then starts recruiting midtier chaos units like forsaken, chaos spawn, chaos warriors, etc. Or 7 units out of 20 go rogue with a few forsaken or something and a brand new chaos lord and you would have to survive a quick battle.

    I still feel this a very very very... Very... Very very bad idea in the long run. I want to make chaos fun too but this is just going to make playing other factions more frustrating. It's not going to add anything substantial to playing AS chaos. It might make it even more boring since there will be fewer armies willing to take your stacks on.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,860Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Of course it does. You cause literal chaos by making factions tear themselves apart instead of razing one city after another (just have cities occupied by the renegades count towards the WoC/BM's victory conditions, even if they're hostile). And losing characters and armies to Chaos-worship is part of the lore, so it fits. That you can lose high level characters and armies this way isn't any different from losing them to a superior enemy on the battlefield in my opinion. If you think losing armies is that bad then you might as well demand making all soldiers and characters completely indestructible.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    Of course it does. You cause literal chaos by making factions tear themselves apart instead of razing one city after another (just have cities occupied by the renegades count towards the WoC/BM's victory conditions, even if they're hostile). And losing characters and armies to Chaos-worship is part of the lore, so it fits. That you can lose high level characters and armies this way isn't any different from losing them to a superior enemy on the battlefield in my opinion. If you think losing armies is that bad then you might as well demand making all soldiers and characters completely indestructible.

    Yeah I agree with this. But I do like your compromise Wombat. It's the way Shogun 2 did it, where just a chunk of the army betrayed and the general was low level and low loyalty. So there was some limits to it and the AI very very rarely used it on you. Plus you said it yourself it's a late game thing so be ready for some tough **** in the long run. Chaos's enemies are not exempt from the influence of chaos.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    And my idea for one stack disappearing on low levels with Ephraim_Dalton's eye of the gods feature was supposed to be frustrating because you fail to please the dark gods !!! Your general turns into a chaos spawn because he could not handle ascending and serving the dark gods.

    I mean look at the crippling affect when you have low chivalry.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,014Registered Users

    Of course it does. You cause literal chaos by making factions tear themselves apart instead of razing one city after another (just have cities occupied by the renegades count towards the WoC/BM's victory conditions, even if they're hostile). And losing characters and armies to Chaos-worship is part of the lore, so it fits. That you can lose high level characters and armies this way isn't any different from losing them to a superior enemy on the battlefield in my opinion. If you think losing armies is that bad then you might as well demand making all soldiers and characters completely indestructible.

    I would argue it IS VERY different to losing to a superior enemy on the battlefield because it's "on the battlefield" and you have a chance to survive. You can put up a fight. It's actually fun where as having a campaign mechanic that automatically makes you lose armies with little to no counter on your part very UNfun. You may as well just bring back the abilitity to buy armies and cities outright from under your enemies nose. See how fun that is in a game you can only support 3 or 4 armies halfway through the game. It's a lot different now that we don't have to create our own garrisons.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,860Registered Users
    What do you mean "automatically"? I told you it only happens if you leave a character exposed to Chaos for too long. So you still have a choice.

    That's how it works in the lore.
  • GreyKnightDantesGreyKnightDantes Posts: 194Registered Users
    Listen guys listen..........I don't care if Chaos is able to build nations/cities/etc....



    but I WILL rage in this forum if they make Beastmen have cities as well......thats just going TOO far
    ==========================================================================================
    When you are trying hard not to burn people but you smell heresy in the air...


  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited March 2017

    Listen guys listen..........I don't care if Chaos is able to build nations/cities/etc....



    but I WILL rage in this forum if they make Beastmen have cities as well......thats just going TOO far

    Dude I'm with you on that. But it would be nice to make Khasrack dance with beauty in his castle though.


    No I'm kidding there is nothing I can grab from lore for beastmen citadels. lol
    Post edited by KGpoopy on
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Yeah I kept an open mind to posts saying they want chaos to "settle" and then eventually wanting them to have the wood elves mechanic. So I thought up something that would be most appropriate for chaos, really stretching and reaching for lore bits. Fortunately there was some grounding for chaos citadels and the like, and people have smoothed some rough spots through discussion. And now the "small details" section of the overhaul is enough to make playing chaos exciting. So thanks guys for contributing to the overhaul and may Chaos reign! ...and hopefully CA Rich and any other Dev is still paying attention. :blush: Because it's a little more than what he looked at now. And I neatened it up a bit.
    CA_Rich_A said:

    @CA_Rich_A

    Can you me if the Devs. laughed at my WoC overhaul or not, or they thought it was a good idea? :smiley:

    Some nice ideas ChaosDragonBorn, I particularly like your idea for agents of Chaos seducing others to their cause, feels very organic and how I see Chaos manifesting in the world to bring ruin to all.

    I would certainly like to go back to WoC in the future and give them a new lick of paint with my team to bring them up to scratch.

    Who knows I may even bring some of your ideas to life. :wink:
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    KGpoopy said:

    Listen guys listen..........I don't care if Chaos is able to build nations/cities/etc....



    but I WILL rage in this forum if they make Beastmen have cities as well......thats just going TOO far

    Dude I'm with you on that. But it would be nice to make Khasrack dance with beauty in his castle though.


    No I'm kidding there is nothing I can grab from lore for beastmen citadels. lol
    Would be one hell of an easter egg. :wink:
    Post edited by ChaosDragonBorn on
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017

    What do you mean "automatically"? I told you it only happens if you leave a character exposed to Chaos for too long. So you still have a choice.

    That's how it works in the lore.

    OOHHHHHHHHHoooo :open_mouth:

    I get it. So they receive a corruption trait if in high corruption for too long, and that enables then to the chances of getting manipulated by chaos. Oh ok I like that.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,860Registered Users
    They have a chance of picking corruption traits up as long as they end a turn in such an area. That chance gets higher the more corruption traits they already have.

    As I suggested, corruption traits give you free skill-points, but also make it riskier to go with such characters after WoC or BM, since battling them also carries a chance of giving the character corruption traits.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,014Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Well since we are committed to this apparently... There should be a way to remove Chaos traits like the Bretonnians can do with negative ones. All similar buildings for making other factions magic users could fill this role. % chance to remove a negative traits or chaos trait, have a prompt pop up so you can pick negative or chaos, maybe a different yes/no prompt if the character has only Chaos traits. I'm assuming these corruption traits would have up sides aside from free skills so having the option to keep them may be important for skirting the edge of heresy.

    Also hype on the thread getting g noticed.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,042Registered Users

    What do you mean "automatically"? I told you it only happens if you leave a character exposed to Chaos for too long. So you still have a choice.

    That's how it works in the lore.

    i like your idea.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,042Registered Users
    When this will happen in official game? Or is it a mod which gets additions? We need to make CA add this stuff at official campaign.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    OP updated. Added two more things.

    -Chaos ascendancy. From chieftain to chaos lord, all the way to daemon prince. Maybe make an evolution of chaos generals in the campaign.

    -Chaos Objective and quests cinamatics


    The first is self-explanatory but it can be more detailed through discussion. I was thinking maybe through that "eye of the gods" thing we talked about you can upgrade 1 of your chaos generals to the next level of ascendancy. This is how you would get powerful daemon princes. By leveling up the chaos general and marking him for ascendancy.

    The second would be cool because it would make your chaos campaign feel like a journey, or a epic mission. Plus CA's cinamatic trailers are really cool. They are revelational victory cinematics.
    Examples::
    The Coronation of Archaon

    Archaon, seated upon the throne of a dying world

    Would go perfectly with the overhaul! Could have that woman or the man from the early announcement trailer narrate what's going on in the scene. :smile:
    Post edited by ChaosDragonBorn on
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017
    Any body want to listen to Hulk Archaon Hogan?



    CA please re-voice him....

    For such a powerful commander of darkness he sure does sound like a punk.

    1. He's talking way too much.
    2. He's too powerful for outward grandstanding and petty chest bumping
    3. He sounds like a orc, and it feels too contrived.
    4. All that to say, it's like a wrestling promo. It's hard to take him serious and I'm not just talking about quest battle speeches
    5. Have him be more sinister and calculated like a dark lord is supposed to sound.
    6. He supposed to sound more confident and not like he's compensating for something.
    7. Don't have to write different lines, but say it in a darker and less wrestling promo way. But I would like him to say less.


    Maybe voicing Archaon was as unfinished as the whole dlc because of the sudden want to have them playable. And CA just quickly voiced him?
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    Any body want to listen to Hulk Archaon Hogan?



    CA please re-voice him....

    For such a powerful commander of darkness he sure does sound like a punk.

    1. He's talking way too much.
    2. He's too powerful for outward grandstanding and petty chest bumping
    3. He sounds like a orc, and it feels too contrived.
    4. All that to say, it's like a wrestling promo. It's hard to take him serious and I'm not just talking about quest battle speeches
    5. Have him be more sinister and calculated like a dark lord is supposed to sound.
    6. He supposed to sound more confident and not like he's compensating for something.
    7. Don't have to write different lines, but say it in a darker and less wrestling promo way. But I would like him to say less.


    Maybe voicing Archaon was as unfinished as the whole dlc because of the sudden want to have them playable. And CA just quickly voiced him?

    Archaon is going to get a little more cringy after seeing this lol. It was CA's goal all along.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    Suggestions

    Chosen great weapons
    +6 melee attack
    +4 charge
    Fear

    Chosen Halberds
    Expert Charge defense

    Chosen shields
    +5 melee defense
    or
    Shield wall formation

    Archaon gets his own spells like Orion
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited March 2017

    Any body want to listen to Hulk Archaon Hogan?

    CA please re-voice him....

    For such a powerful commander of darkness he sure does sound like a punk.

    1. He's talking way too much.
    2. He's too powerful for outward grandstanding and petty chest bumping
    3. He sounds like a orc, and it feels too contrived.
    4. All that to say, it's like a wrestling promo. It's hard to take him serious and I'm not just talking about quest battle speeches
    5. Have him be more sinister and calculated like a dark lord is supposed to sound.
    6. He supposed to sound more confident and not like he's compensating for something.
    7. Don't have to write different lines, but say it in a darker and less wrestling promo way. But I would like him to say less.


    Maybe voicing Archaon was as unfinished as the whole dlc because of the sudden want to have them playable. And CA just quickly voiced him?

    Is this Archaon's voice or someone else? It kind of sounds better than in game.

  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:


    Any body want to listen to Hulk Archaon Hogan?

    CA please re-voice him....

    For such a powerful commander of darkness he sure does sound like a punk.

    1. He's talking way too much.
    2. He's too powerful for outward grandstanding and petty chest bumping
    3. He sounds like a orc, and it feels too contrived.
    4. All that to say, it's like a wrestling promo. It's hard to take him serious and I'm not just talking about quest battle speeches
    5. Have him be more sinister and calculated like a dark lord is supposed to sound.
    6. He supposed to sound more confident and not like he's compensating for something.
    7. Don't have to write different lines, but say it in a darker and less wrestling promo way. But I would like him to say less.


    Maybe voicing Archaon was as unfinished as the whole dlc because of the sudden want to have them playable. And CA just quickly voiced him?

    Is this Archaon's voice or someone else? It kind of sounds better than in game.

    I would like to think that is Archaon talking. But it's not consistent with what's in game of course so it's probably not. It's way better actually. That trailer's narrator is more sinister and calculated. I would say he sounds more intelligent, but in a Lord of the End Times kind of way. That voice and narration would be more consistent with the way Archaon looks and stands and literally the way he is.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,042Registered Users

    Any body want to listen to Hulk Archaon Hogan?



    CA please re-voice him....

    For such a powerful commander of darkness he sure does sound like a punk.

    1. He's talking way too much.
    2. He's too powerful for outward grandstanding and petty chest bumping
    3. He sounds like a orc, and it feels too contrived.
    4. All that to say, it's like a wrestling promo. It's hard to take him serious and I'm not just talking about quest battle speeches
    5. Have him be more sinister and calculated like a dark lord is supposed to sound.
    6. He supposed to sound more confident and not like he's compensating for something.
    7. Don't have to write different lines, but say it in a darker and less wrestling promo way. But I would like him to say less.


    Maybe voicing Archaon was as unfinished as the whole dlc because of the sudden want to have them playable. And CA just quickly voiced him?

    CA plz let me do Archaon's voice!
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited March 2017

    Any body want to listen to Hulk Archaon Hogan?



    CA please re-voice him....

    For such a powerful commander of darkness he sure does sound like a punk.

    1. He's talking way too much.
    2. He's too powerful for outward grandstanding and petty chest bumping
    3. He sounds like a orc, and it feels too contrived.
    4. All that to say, it's like a wrestling promo. It's hard to take him serious and I'm not just talking about quest battle speeches
    5. Have him be more sinister and calculated like a dark lord is supposed to sound.
    6. He supposed to sound more confident and not like he's compensating for something.
    7. Don't have to write different lines, but say it in a darker and less wrestling promo way. But I would like him to say less.


    Maybe voicing Archaon was as unfinished as the whole dlc because of the sudden want to have them playable. And CA just quickly voiced him?

    CA plz have me make Archaon's voice, i have perfect voice.
    CA pick me!
    I can actually do a Dragon voice like in The Hobbit!

    :blush: I'm serious, I have a deep voice
    Post edited by ChaosDragonBorn on
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users

    KGpoopy said:


    Any body want to listen to Hulk Archaon Hogan?

    CA please re-voice him....

    For such a powerful commander of darkness he sure does sound like a punk.

    1. He's talking way too much.
    2. He's too powerful for outward grandstanding and petty chest bumping
    3. He sounds like a orc, and it feels too contrived.
    4. All that to say, it's like a wrestling promo. It's hard to take him serious and I'm not just talking about quest battle speeches
    5. Have him be more sinister and calculated like a dark lord is supposed to sound.
    6. He supposed to sound more confident and not like he's compensating for something.
    7. Don't have to write different lines, but say it in a darker and less wrestling promo way. But I would like him to say less.


    Maybe voicing Archaon was as unfinished as the whole dlc because of the sudden want to have them playable. And CA just quickly voiced him?

    Is this Archaon's voice or someone else? It kind of sounds better than in game.

    I would like to think that is Archaon talking. But it's not consistent with what's in game of course so it's probably not. It's way better actually. That trailer's narrator is more sinister and calculated. I would say he sounds more intelligent, but in a Lord of the End Times kind of way. That voice and narration would be more consistent with the way Archaon looks and stands and literally the way he is.
    After saying that I would laugh if it's actually Kholek's voice and not Archaon.

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