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Main points of WoC Overhaul

ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
edited September 2017 in Balancing Discussions
This is from my Warriors of chaos overhaul thread in feedback. I wanted to make some points and underline the significant request that will make chaos more enjoyable and challenging. Nearing the conclusion of the discussion we have developed this as the way we want chaos to be. I have seen many post about people wanting chaos to conquer since July, and now with the outpost system for the wood elves, some people want that idea implemented for the Warriors. (Also looking at the steam reviews...) I would suggest looking at the discussion but this is the consensus anyway.


-Chaos structures can only be built in provinces of high corruption (75 or higher). This would emphasize the corrupting warping nature of chaos. It would destabilize the enemy province, and highlight the dynamic changes CA implemented with the chaos corruption on the map. In addition to that reasoning, these fortresses are ideally not built by the warriors, but by cultists, slaves, and daemons, hints why the high corruption is needed. Also the reason why the high corruption makes sense is because the armies of chaos need to be raiding, sacking, and pillaging instead of erecting cites or fortresses all over the place like a normal human race would. So there needs to be a corruption check before we get the options to sack, raze, or take over.

-The chaos structures are exclusive to province capitals. The minor settlements are left to being razed or sacked. Razing the minor settlement would boost the corruption rate of the provincial capital . Sacking would of course bring in loads of money or dark favor.

-The buildings themselves would be only military and technology beneficial. Unlock new units, buildings and technologies, that boost unit strength, replenishment, growth, decrease upkeep etc. These places would not provide any income because the income is reliant on sacking and raiding.

-The WoC can start with a place already, or they can start the same way they start now, with nothing but a small army. But the latter would be so hard and interesting to work with as the player, but the AI would mess it up, so I would make them start with a dreadhold in the northern waste.

-Diplomacy. Well there is none except for cooperation with the Dark Elves, Skaven, Ogres, Norsca, or any other neutral or chaos faction. But remember, with this idea, they can't sit around and have partnerships, they continue to corrupt and fight until everything is broken and destroyed, and the only thing that's left is a world reaping with chaos corruption with dark fortresses towering over the land.

Here are the concepts I and others posted.





Here's the discussion: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/189182/warriors-of-chaos-overhaul/p1

If you have ideas or suggestions posts them, if you approve of this overhaul let em know :smiley: (CA that is)
If you are 100% satisfied with the current Warriors then please tell us why .
Post edited by ChaosDragonBorn on
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Comments

  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Posts: 827Registered Users
    I'd like to see small conquerable outposts in the smaller areas, no benefit to chaos except to leave a place for players to raid and conquer (and maybe some replenishment)... the whole razing everything issue so people couldn't win was the biggest argument against a strong chaos force.

    Give them garrisons of chaos spawn and forsaken and make It feel like the area was really invaded by the chaos. Maybe with some cool battle maps with red haze, burned out buildings, skeletons everywhere etc. Really make them look like the endtimes have swept over them.

    I wonder if instead of every capital being a chaos base, if there should be destinations for the chaos lords to capture where they could build the citadels you describe with massive garrisons that could actually produce troops. Seriously defended and more dangerous that any other kind of siege.

    Instead of 20 small potential fortresses, a few absolutely monstrous ones... or maybe the capital cities of each race? The dwarves capital would be a hell of a chaos base for instance.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Saphiron said:

    I'd like to see small conquerable outposts in the smaller areas, no benefit to chaos except to leave a place for players to raid and conquer (and maybe some replenishment)... the whole razing everything issue so people couldn't win was the biggest argument against a strong chaos force.

    Give them garrisons of chaos spawn and forsaken and make It feel like the area was really invaded by the chaos. Maybe with some cool battle maps with red haze, burned out buildings, skeletons everywhere etc. Really make them look like the endtimes have swept over them.

    I wonder if instead of every capital being a chaos base, if there should be destinations for the chaos lords to capture where they could build the citadels you describe with massive garrisons that could actually produce troops. Seriously defended and more dangerous that any other kind of siege.

    Instead of 20 small potential fortresses, a few absolutely monstrous ones... or maybe the capital cities of each race? The dwarves capital would be a hell of a chaos base for instance.

    Yup. That's the idea. Instead of many small forts or "outposts" they build potentially large fortresses to be a foundation or a base exclusive to the province capitals. Only conquerable in a chaos corrupted land. I'd say about 65% or higher. This would ensure that whatever maps are potentially made will fit the atmosphere as well. Yes indeed these places would and should be seigeable. So they certainly will not be numerously dotted all over the world. Especially for the AI. But the AI chaos invasion will certainly be more challenging because of it.
    (I do like the idea of only key objective capitals to be raised as citadels :wink: )

    Chaos is not an attack, hide, lick your wounds and hope you don't get hunted down type of race like the beastmen are. The idea is to let their economy still be heavily reliant on sacking, raiding and battle loot but give them that sweeping and creeping world domination feel.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    It would go a long way towards fixing the problem of losing an army but also lost get all the building that make them affordable. If CA takes ahold of this there would need to be a lot of changes to recruitment and upkeep costs unless Chaos armies keep the horde system. What we should discuss now is how buildings are made in the forts if at all and how the current system should be changed to accommodate it. Ive been wracking my mind for ideas but I just can't think of a good way for it to work yet.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,342Registered Users
    edited December 2016

    It would go a long way towards fixing the problem of losing an army but also lost get all the building that make them affordable. If CA takes ahold of this there would need to be a lot of changes to recruitment and upkeep costs unless Chaos armies keep the horde system. What we should discuss now is how buildings are made in the forts if at all and how the current system should be changed to accommodate it. Ive been wracking my mind for ideas but I just can't think of a good way for it to work yet.

    I too find losing all buildings when losing an army with a horde faction unnecessarily punishing. But it can easily be fixed with a much simpler change like keeping the buildings when the lord returns from wounded state, but having to repair all of them for a hefty sum of money.

    That been said, beastmen and chaos campaigns are the easiest ones as is.

    I find horde gameplay very lacking though.

    How I would personally do Chaos:

    -"favour" is gained from combat and worship. Sacking income reduced and chain sacking exploit fixed (maybe just let them raze once for money like beastmen)
    -Army upkeep is higher so it's no longer feasible to maintain high tier armies with just initial income
    -Vassals also give you favour (which makes subjugating norsca tribes more valuable)
    -Human provinces will start having Chaos covens after a certain level of corruption which gives you favour and intel on local armies. Might give some additional bonuses too after a certain level of corruption. Chaos can attack high corruption provinces without siege equipment (walls will have breaches on attack)
    -Give chaos assassin agents that can fight enemy anti corrupton heroes and destroy anti corruption buildings
    -At very high level of corruption chaos rebel armies will star spawning that can take human cities. They have same roster as original faction but can recruit a few chaos units like chaos spawn. If they take some cities they will start expanding and they are automatically your vassals. They won't be able to recruit sigmarite priests or witch hunters
    -Chaos portal things you leave when razing are destructible buildings that would start having garrison and give recruitment cost reduction when high corruption

    I don't see CA making a huge overhaul at this point though. Maybe game 2 or 3.

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    I don't like the idea of the buildings being connected to the lord. If a lord got assassinated by one of the thousands of agents, it would mean the new lord would have no buildings and your entire army would jump in upkeep costs to a stupid amout. Recruitment of new units would be over until the other lord comes back. And what happens if your lord dies? Do you lose every building? Because that would think make any more sense than losing every building from the lord getting switched out. There's gotta be a better way of going about this.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited December 2016

    What we should discuss now is how buildings are made in the forts if at all and how the current system should be changed to accommodate it. Ive been wracking my mind for ideas but I just can't think of a good way for it to work yet.

    All of the current chaos buildings would not make more or less sense to be carried over to this system with exception to the main horde building chain("Nomandic Gathering", "Warband" "Tribal Gathering") . I read CA's fluff on the buildings and they all sound like they can apply with this overhaul. When CA does more for the roster, more building types can be made.

    I think buildings like the "Mound of Blades" and the "Reliquary of Chaos" should be essential for these citadels(can't make my mind up on what to actually call these places) . These buildings give all units experience points which increase their ranking and their stats, making them a little tougher . Regarding the system we made, depending on what capital you conquered, especially if it has a special resource to it,-- it could have a special building chain to make.

    Examples
    IRON: +4 unit experience to increase the stats of units and -30% recruitment cost reduction.
    FURS: +40 Growth +20% Replenishment rate

    Believe it or not, but the AI actually takes advantage of these special building chains too. So chaos can as well.

    It would go a long way towards fixing the problem of losing an army but also lost get all the building that make them affordable. If CA takes ahold of this there would need to be a lot of changes to recruitment and upkeep costs unless Chaos armies keep the horde system. What we should discuss now is how buildings are made in the forts if at all and how the current system should be changed to accommodate it. Ive been wracking my mind for ideas but I just can't think of a good way for it to work yet.

    -Chaos portal things you leave when razing are destructible buildings that would start having garrison and give recruitment cost reduction when high corruption

    I don't see CA making a huge overhaul at this point though. Maybe game 2 or 3.


    The Chaos Rifts do collapse/disappear after a while. I like that idea though, if they remain a horde. But I'm 99% against Chaos warriors being a pure horde with the beastmen. I want them to be a horde in the sense that the greenskins are a horde. Chaos is currently more a nuisance like the beastmen are. Norsca and orcs and vampires were the most worrying things for me in all my campaigns.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users



    -The WoC can start with a place already, or they can start the same way they start now, with nothing but a small army. But the latter would be so hard and interesting to work with as the player, but the AI would mess it up, so I would make them start with a dreadhold in the northern waste.


    The Inevitable City
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    Didn't Archaon actually take Brass Keep and turn it into a legit chaos stronghold?
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    Didn't Archaon actually take Brass Keep and turn it into a legit chaos stronghold?

    Yeah Archaon took that from the Empire. It's a chaos stronghold that Archaon retreated to after a battle. Very little is written about it. It's only mentioned by chance in other stories and lore pages.
    Here's what I know about it.
    - It's in "The Middle Mountains "
    - An imperial fortress located deep within the mountains which recently fell into the hands of Chaos warriors. Since then this fortress has been home to a multitude of Chaos Warlords seeking shelter from Imperial retribution.
    -A very powerful nurgle daemon, Orghotts Daemonspew recruits there.
    - It's now a "fortified citadel" for chaos
    -Archaon retreated there

    Archaon himself didn't take it, but a Tzeench lord under his command laid siege to it.
  • DevoneauxDevoneaux Posts: 63Registered Users
    How about instead just give Chaos one super city that can be teleported onto the razed remains of any major city?
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    I think we're looking for a little more lore friendliness than that.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited January 2017
    Devoneaux said:

    How about instead just give Chaos one super city that can be teleported onto the razed remains of any major city?

    Nah, like this...

    :lol:
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