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Thoughts about balance issues and CA.

killehtkilleht Registered Users Posts: 75
edited January 2017 in Balancing Discussions
Hi there.

Just out of curiosity I like to ask/- point out - to what extend people who post balancing suggestion on these forums do consider whether their suggetions are based on play style or faction diversity in general (for example when changing units in one faction one changes its relation to all other factions so when one changes alot of factions it has to add up)?

After seing threads about "Forsaken are OP against Wood Elves" (use the correct units against the forsaken build) and "Low range artillery is weak" (use "Net of Amyntok", blasting charges etc. to slow the enemy) being floored by suggestion that would only have taken some actual gaming experience, I question how much effort really is put into balancing discussions on these forums by us and by CA as whole. The whole balance and broken spells issues are tearing this game and community apart.

It sounds like a alot of work to balance a game like this but I belive it could be done by a handfull of people (maybe even just 1-2 persons fulltime). Just consider how many spreadsheets they really do need/- already have - (does it really require very much work to figure out/handle faction balance issues when it is even obvious to experienced players?).
Bad management (or maybe loss of touh between management and employes) could be the issue, that is to say the company lost touch.

Us throwing half-thought suggestions is comparable to how much CA has failed with the magic/balance system in this game since it was released, in that faction balancing only require some small amounts of actual gaming experience and actual considerations rather than seemingly random implements in each patch (even based on that CA all the time
had the tabletop version as an inspiration for faction and spell balancing from the very beginning).

Of course things need to be discussed but some things are just too obvious both from the players side and from the work of CA (here I am for example refering to the discussions like the one about Wood Elves mentioned earlier and the absolutely uselessnes of lore of fire vortex spells even more than 6 months after the game was released on CA's behalf).
The bad decision by CA is tearing the players impression of the game to bits, because constant rebalancing of spell and units does ruin the impression one tries to hold for the game.
It sometimes seems like CA is too interested in making new content and earning money, rather than fixing the simple and obvious broken parts of the game. I was warned against games featuring DLC's but would not ever imagine this level of greed.

That said I am not fully convinced that e.g. that vortex spells are genereally broken (the lore of fire vortex spells seems broken though (move to fast to do any damage. Cost, armor damage and area of effect also fall short compared to "The Purple Sun of Xereus" unless this is also an effect of their movement speed)) and that lore of metal is underpowered for its price (maybe it needs some adjustments but seems fair generally when used correctly and if it does the same amount against armored and non-armored units it is fair that the spells damage are a bit lower. Again I do not have time to test everything in a game this size in my spare time...).

The other thing is using the campaign feature as an excuse for how much time is being put into faction balance. The game was presented like featuring huge and glorious battles when first presented on the E3 show so that is what the buyer expects.
The campaign aspect does require relative little work compared (technical, art and balancing) and is the minor technical feature from my impression. CA also had almost all the engine mechanics from the preceding TW games.

The impression one gets on these forums appears to be that CA have been absolute imbeciles when it comes to gameplay mechanics in terms of faction balance and spell system. It does not have to be this way.

Most people just do not have the time or experience to consider all balance topics in TW:W and would rather like to have fun with the product they paid for.

Have a nice day. :-)
Post edited by killeht on

Comments

  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,642
    You're really judging an open forum for not having 100% good ideas?

    Magic is in general broken because it was an entirely new system that had to be created from the ground up both from a coding standpoint and from a game design standpoint. Creating 5+ completely unique factions is a LOT of work and I'm sure CA didn't finish what they wanted to based on the missing/half baked features and the push-back of the original release date.

    The important thing is that the game continues to move forward. The "Old World" edition will be a big turning point. It seems a lot of major reworks and balancing has gone into this next patch so we'll see if some solid progress forward is made or not.
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  • AlakyenAlakyen Registered Users Posts: 428
    Totally agree i think one person in one day or two can make a patch to fix completely broken thins, then just sit and w8 feedback, (with some criteria surely) But they dont really need to test having this forum. Almos every broken think have been said, and of course some things are to radical but you can notice it but simply reading the comments, so CA should just go to a middle term. I really thing if i was CA boss i would wonder really hard if i should fire the one in charge of balance, cause is completely doing nothing. And thats a pretty easy job every modder can do, and even me, with no knowled of computers at all can mod cause is pretty easy. Low qualification post and not doing his job. Balance guy in CA should be totally fired.
  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    yep, thats totally the way to get them to talk with us and do something, or communicate what has/will be done: call them greedy and demand they should lose their jobs, while pretending its easy...

    damn, smh... shaking my head


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • AlakyenAlakyen Registered Users Posts: 428
    Of course is easy, is easy to do something at all. The issue is that balance is a matter of trying prudently listening to everything. And there are too few changes in so distanced patches to really worth a salary. Players must test, all they must do is to mod. Balance is done for players, not for them.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,880
    edited January 2017
    1-2 persons enough for thorough QA?

    I guess you peeps also think it only takes three guys to build a moon rocket, one assembles the hull, one buys the gas and one lights the fuse, eh?

    Just FYI, introducing and balancing even one new melee unit can easily take hundreds of hours simply because you need to constantly repeat battles under several different conditions to test it on the battlefield alone. Then imagine testing a late-game unit's impact on a campaign. Yep, gotta' play several campaigns all the way to the lategame.
    Magic? Same thing.

    Good QA is hard, boringly repetitive and time-consuming. That's why being a professional game's tester is not something to be envied for.

  • AlakyenAlakyen Registered Users Posts: 428
    edited January 2017

    1-2 persons enough for thorough QA?

    I guess you peeps also think it only takes three guys to build a moon rocket, one assembles the hull, one buys the gas and one lights the fuse, eh?

    Just FYI, introducing and balancing even one new melee unit can easily take hundreds of hours simply because you need to constantly repeat battles under several different conditions to test it on the battlefield alone. Then imagine testing a late-game unit's impact on a campaign. Yep, gotta' play several campaigns all the way to the lategame.
    Magic? Same thing.

    Good QA is hard, boringly repetitive and time-consuming. That's why being a professional game's tester is not something to be envied for.

    Again you dont have to test, players are testing continuosly. And they can and will imagine far beyond more tactics that they never will. All they have to do is to read every thread and comments in this post, and see in which things most people agree and how and so the degree, and then just mod. Of course is funnier to play, but they are noy payed for play they are payed for balance. And they are not payed for balance regarding their experiences or testing, they should be payed to balance for player's experiences and issues. Dont worry if they are commited prudent and eye opened they will totally tweak everything in the right measure, the hard issue here, is they balance without hearing players a bit. So who are they balancing for? Do not worry that if they commit a mistake people will comply here. That for sure. The issue is that the vast community has points of agreement, specially in magic balance and underused units. And is so **** simple to tweak things to make them more accesible and useable. If no, against, they should be fired.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,880
    LOL!

    Yeah, it's that easy, except even the few players posting on this board have often wildly diverging opinions about the current balance. How's CA going decide when one guy thinks unit X is totally weak and needs buffs while another thinks it's OP and needs nerfs? Throw a coin?

  • AlakyenAlakyen Registered Users Posts: 428

    LOL!

    Yeah, it's that easy, except even the few players posting on this board have often wildly diverging opinions about the current balance. How's CA going decide when one guy thinks unit X is totally weak and needs buffs while another thinks it's OP and needs nerfs? Throw a coin?

    OMG listening the complete argument about why one say is op and why other say is nerf. Is like with AoK, some say is ok (like me) and that the problem is armies who pretend to camp whole match, and others say is totally op and spammed. I am complaining about camping others about forcing endless draw. So those are the issues they must face and everybody may agree because is common sense that camping or kitting whole match agaisnt or with wood elves is pure ****. And thats pretty simple to fix. Simply give wood elves more options beside AoK to avoid camping that forces them to rush, cause wood elves can not rush against strong defensive positions. And simply avoid and limit kitting with AoK whole match:
    -Waywatchers more accurracy so they can kill arty faster, and AoK limited charges and better accurracy and less AoE impact to not being used against infantry, then kitting is improved for a limited time based on waywatchers ammo and not being able to use AoK to decimate an army. IS SO **** EASY AS THAT. Instead you have 10 pages in a post asking to fix waywatchers where all people agree that they are pretty useless and 5 post dealing with the need of AoK to destroy arty with the overuse problem based in no limited charges.
    Again, they only have to read and mod. And mod can be done in a day. If they can not pay attention, read or even respect others good ideas or have their own, they do not deserve their salary.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    Great, the elf fanboy says AoK is fine and doesn't need nerfing. Totally objective....
  • AlakyenAlakyen Registered Users Posts: 428
    salsicha said:

    Great, the elf fanboy says AoK is fine and doesn't need nerfing. Totally objective....

    I know my english is no perfect, but i think i can still be read, so... are you blind? Here i said it does nerf, and in my other post about wood elves balance i do it to. What i said before is that they do not need nerf in terms of efficacy against single target, but of course a limit to avoid spamming (more than 5) and used to decimate infantry (AoE impact decrease) should be limited. Please, next time read before write. Thats probably the problem with balance CA, this game and life in general. People can not read and understand to create his own opinion, just repeat others...

    Just like in the post with short range artillery anyone clever enough may see noone is saying is fair prized, some people say it is useful with net and explosive charges, but they would never comply if for exmple this artillery get some speed buff and slighly cost reduction, so thats balance, but CA is not going even to tweak or change nothing of close range artillery and it will be underused for months, years, or maybe the whole game life. They go on making their own teamwork matches and judgind why they, as the lords of knowledge and balance think is fair. Potions were op since day one, sure they needed 100 matches under different conditions to just realize the **** whole community in this forum was right. And surely some people may find counter and uses to overpowered or underpowered things. The issue of balance is to make sure counters and uses for every unit are accesible enough to be a fact and not a choice overwhelmed by other more wide choices with less difficulty to find their place.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,642
    I get where you're coming from Alakyen.

    That's because the balance team has the data. It is clear from what Ato and Duck have said that they get a constant influx from Quickmatch battles about how often units are taken, in what quantity, and how they perform.

    I mean, it is pretty obvious to even the simple idiot that very few people take Balthazar Gelt, and when they do they often lose, that Balthazar probably sucks and needs a buff. Yet, 6 months goes by, 5 patches go by, and nothing happens with Gelt or the lore of metal.

    It's easy to think this is because the balance team is incompetent, but that's only because you're only worried about what you can see. The balance team is balancing Game 2 right now in all likelyhood. They're constantly testing changes to builds we never witness as well as the current game, because all of that stuff has to get done at some point and it can't happen after release.
    Space Frontier is a sci-fi themed board game I've designed for 2-4 players. Please take a look and enjoy our free Print-and-Play at FreezeDriedGames.com

    If you have any questions about tactics or mechanics in Total War Warhammer multiplayer, feel free to PM me.
  • AlakyenAlakyen Registered Users Posts: 428
    edited January 2017
    It Tooks one day or two before every patch to read all the last 5 pages of threads in this forum and make a list of minor changes and mod it. I have modded. So I know what I am talking about. They are no balancing this game cause they do not care balance neither players. Just DLC of cheap content. Come on wood elves infantry models... I think the only ones earning their job in this game are the animation team. Man those dudes are awesome. And just because poor copy paste modeling we are loosing their job with these ants armies.
    Post edited by Alakyen on
  • killehtkilleht Registered Users Posts: 75
    edited January 2017

    LOL!

    Yeah, it's that easy, except even the few players posting on this board have often wildly diverging opinions about the current balance. How's CA going decide when one guy thinks unit X is totally weak and needs buffs while another thinks it's OP and needs nerfs? Throw a coin?

    Exactly, players should be able to express their opinion but CA themselves should have the plan/intellect to actually balance the game how they invision it or how they in the first place planned to emulate the tabletop formula for the factions...

    The game should not be broken for so long since release and surely not after 5 major patches. Here refering to the lore of fire vortex spells (do not think any other spells are directly broken) that simply seem to be disfunctional but maybe there is some intended use for them they just dont do any damage the way they are now (refering to my original post).

    Remember TW: Medieval 2 AI was buggy as hell, now the issues are completly different, apparent and easy to solve.

    Ephraim_Dalton said: "1-2 persons enough for thorough QA?"

    I meant to say that the obvious issues should have been resovled in the latest patch at least. That 1-2 people should be enough to manage the faction diversity while QA is something done by testers.

    Maybe a person new to the field would have problem balancing the game without actually breaking stuff (lore of fire vortex spells for example) and experience is not earned before trying, but seriously when you have so many games to compare to and draw inspiration from on the game market it should be a breeze to diversify and reasonably balance different factions (before QA), especially when the game is based on two already excisting franchise (Total War and Warhammer Fantasy) with alot of unique factions.

    I just notice so many complaints (not sure if they make sense) about balance in these forums and notice alot of balance changes each patch (which maybe are just refinemenst based on statistics and tests) that I wanted to point out that this game should be easy to balance and keep steady (by steady I again refer to the state of the lore of fire vortex spells which I seriously doubt I am wrong about) and not still have major broken parts over 6 months after release.

    Really looking forward for the old world edition realease also.

    Have a nice day. :-)
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    CA has already stated that the Fire vortex spells are effective in the single player campaign, which is what most people play. How to make them effective in both multiplayer and single player was not obvious on day one and there are various opinions on how they should work. The "Balance team should be fired" posts are incredibly negative, and based on ignorance and an unearned arrogance.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    edited January 2017
    Gotta love the forums.
    salsicha said:

    "Balance team should be fired"

    The magic team at the very least.
    Oh darn. I'm being part of the problem.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,249
    edited January 2017
    @killeht well said in general.
    @Alakyen the only point you are wrong is balance to be where players agree the most, it is wrong cause a good player will make things work and wont blame balance as qq is for BAD players actually it's their signature.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,249

    Gotta love the forums.

    salsicha said:

    "Balance team should be fired"

    The magic team at the very least.
    I agree with this once again.
  • killehtkilleht Registered Users Posts: 75
    edited January 2017
    salsicha said:

    CA has already stated that the Fire vortex spells are effective in the single player campaign, which is what most people play. How to make them effective in both multiplayer and single player was not obvious on day one and there are various opinions on how they should work. The "Balance team should be fired" posts are incredibly negative, and based on ignorance and an unearned arrogance.

    How the spells are used in auto-resolved has nothing to do with how they work in battles and they are absolutely terrible against the AI also.
    The CA guy (I read it too though I do not remember them saying it was good only in the campaign) who said it is now efficient must have been very lucky or have a faulty memory (no offence meant).
    Maybe they rebalanced the lore of fire vortex spells against WE tree units (think they are supposed to be extra weak against armor) and forgot to test it against other factions?

    I preordered this game and cannot remember the lore of fire vortex spells ever been in such a bad state that they are in now (not that I have used them much. I just do not remember them like really bad spells).
    They are incomparable to other vortex spells and spells in general for its effekt (not to mention its cost for its effect, not that is should be made cheaper rather than fixed).
    The AI used it against me today and I could assume right away that it would have no effect and so it did.

    Easiest (and probally most logical) fix like I mentioned several times elsewhere is to reduce its speed (and duration to compensate) to make it more realiable and predictable against both players and AI.
    That way it will be more like "The Purple Sun of Xereus" in being somehow predictable, devestating if you are lucky or manage to trap around 3 enemy units in the same place.
    Like I have mentioned before in other discussion this spell last shorter and therefore has a much more predictable area of effect while doing massive amounts of more damage for cheaper WOM price.

    Try fly a mage to the enemy AI in custom battles and cast TPSoX (the cheaper version) on one enemy unit, bot highest armor and lowest armor. Then try the same with both lore of fire vortex spells (upgraded versions) and compare the effect and winds of magic price. Try the same against passiv AI enemy lines.
    You will be very surprised.

    I feel confused having to spend time pointing obvious faults like this in a product I spent alot of money on but do so because I am an oldtime Total War and Warhammer fan and just hope this will be resolved somehow.

    :-)

    *Edited last part.*
    Post edited by killeht on
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    edited January 2017
    I don't think custom battles and campaign battles have much in common.
    Post edited by salsicha on
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,163
    Knock off the personal commentary in your posts.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    salsicha said:

    I don't think custom battles and campaign battles have much in common.

    No banners, no special gear, no techs or skilltree buffs, basically it's about as different as you can get.
  • killehtkilleht Registered Users Posts: 75
    edited January 2017
    dge1 said:

    Knock off the personal commentary in your posts.

    What personal comments exactly?

    If you mean that I point out that the game has been in a bad shape since release and first now is shaping up, it is not a personal comment but a statement about the state of the game. The part of pointing out obvious broken mechanics was a part of that statement.

    salsicha said:

    I don't think custom battles and campaign battles have much in common.

    No banners, no special gear, no techs or skilltree buffs, basically it's about as different as you can get.
    That is to say that the lore of fire spells can be enhaned and used properly in the campaign mode unlike the multiplayer battles modes? I highly doubt that the lore of fire vortex spells are even useful there unless you meant by autoresolving battles.
    Which is still just pure lameness for those who do not play the campaign mode.

    The game appears as markedet for its glorious battles (thereby giving the pressumption that the multiplayer part is a fully functional part, at least its obvious parts) with its many glorious screenshot from realtime battles (and the campaign map screenshots on the Steam store probally go easily overlooked compared).

    This is the image CA tries to sell on. Why would they otherwise put that amount of worthwhile effort into making the battles part look so good?
    They could just have made battles much less graphically impressive and battle mechanics much simpler to make it easier balanced/functional and more in harmony with the campaign mode. Instead they made an effort to make TW:W battles look almost cinematic.

    The steam user reviews do somehow reflect that this is a DLC game (which I do not have anything against) but CA seriously expect us to pay that amount of money for only the campaign/- single player - addons functioning?

    What is that effort worth for us buyers in terms of gameplay if the game is obviously broken in terms of balance?
    Total War: Warhammer is marketed like a realtime battle game and is now partly a Warhammer Fantasy game so it should do that justice in behalf of both TW and Warhammer fans (just to make it clear that this is not just a personal opinion).

    I do not agree what anything I say are just personal opinions but rather statements towards the totally obvious faults in this game since it was released over 6 months ago.

    The campaign mode part appears to me as an extra for those who have much spare time. Army composition and custom/multiplayer battles is how I played Warhammer tabletop and how I expect to play the battle part of a Total War game based on the impression one gets before investing in the game (large real time army battles and huge amount of variation in units and battle dynamics).

    All this amount of text might be confusing. My statement is that the obvious fault in multilplayer battles (especially) and in custom battles that are very easy to resolve (e.g. lore of fire vortex spells movement speed and duration attunements to make them work) are still present after such a long time. These faults should not have made it paste beta test.

    Best regards and have a nice day. ;-[]
    Post edited by killeht on
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    edited January 2017
    @killeht
    You are just ranting, and your negativity is not constructive.
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Registered Users Posts: 2,598
    edited January 2017
    What Sal said. Yes, its disappointing that magic and item balance has been in a sad state since release. Yes, there could be a myriad of other improvements. But there is a ton of stuff CA absolutely nailed, and when you don't touch on that you come off whiny. Bottom line is that its still a great game, we all want to make it better, but there are better ways of going about it. No devs are going to want to wade through your pile of salt.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • killehtkilleht Registered Users Posts: 75
    edited February 2017
    Hello there.
    Call it pile of salt. I consider it friendly criticism.

    I played TW: Medieval 2 and boy did that game have many issues back then. The game was like 75% fun and 25% reading post about passive AI bugs etc. on the forums (CA did a good job I know small team and still very high end product with flaws that all came fixed in the end I pressume. This was neither an apparently straightforward issue to solve and CA seemed to put much effort into fixing the game).
    It is my experience with their product that apparently some other people share my thoughts. Did not ever mean to insult the company (Creative Assembly) but just point out that there seems to have been obvious broken mechanisms past each 5-6 patches (for 6 months. That is a long time for small triflings).

    It keeps getting better but I just wanted to say that obvious and simple things should be fixed first (you know like the things that should not have past the beta testing stage for the game (disfunctional magic system)).

    If you don't call that positive contructive critism you have no idea what you are talking about.
    I am talking from years of experience and even if people only partly agree it shows people are spending time to voice their opinion.
    I am actually afraid that some vital broken mechanics for the MP and Custom game community will go unnoticed because they became burried in all the CA's DLC and media communication/marketing plan & execution and that the balance team has been mentioned countless times on these forums for lazyness (if true or not I do now know).

    That said I also somewhere already mentioned that the criticism from fans might just be opinion based etc. This does not mean that there aren't obvious broken things in this game, there are just too many discussions on balance for a casual player like me to actually know what is real/actual issues until one day you experience the broken part yourself (like having your favorit lore of magic have 2 broken vortex spells) or get frustrated because the battle balance is not thought out throughly.
    I experienced this with other games where people just expect fixes and the game ends up a broken mess and only played by some modding community because obvious missing functions where delayed or not fixed).

    Just calling what I say ranting or negative (without any given example) is just bad way of saying that you are not capable to argument for your true opinions... I know CA is a small team and under pressure.
    Only wanted to give a pointer that CA are better of fixing the easy core mechanics first the other thing would appear as a cash-in, which opinion is unfortunately already - though maybe falsely - (I know that DLC and high profile products like Warhammer require alot of resources to come true) established on the Steam store user reviews, in everything I said.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,163
    More off topic posts containing comments about the people posting have been deleted. Points from now on.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • AfanAfan Registered Users Posts: 361
    edited February 2017
    CA is making decently good effort towards this game. Stop complaining so much.

    Once uve been a gamer for 20 years and seen how a lot of companies treat their games after launch sales (looking at you EA >:() you will realise how the world truly turns. Once u run a multi-million dollar corporation, decision making is not as simple or straightforward as we think it is in our personal lives. I do happen to have a clue.

    As far as me, CA has my thanks for this game and the effort they continue to make.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,249
    edited February 2017
    Afan said:

    CA is making decently good effort towards this game. Stop complaining so much.

    Once uve been a gamer for 20 years and seen how a lot of companies treat their games after launch sales (looking at you EA >:() you will realise how the world truly turns. Once u run a multi-million dollar corporation, decision making is not as simple or straightforward as we think it is in our personal lives. I do happen to have a clue.

    As far as me, CA has my thanks for this game and the effort they continue to make.

    Well said, but that's why they patch a game, to test solutions and fix issues, CA shouldn't be afraid to test things as they can use a patch to turn back, what they should be afraid is not to improve. Of course complains aren't a good balance data. Also when someone said CA should fire the spell team well thats a solution but also CA can tell them how to fix spells as the team did a good job in general and what is wrong isnt their fault as they're told to do things like that so now that the result is PROVED to be a fault have them change it, so simple.
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