Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

WE need nerf\Beastmen haitred trait wierd?

HircaneHircane Registered Users Posts: 119
So first of all I wanted to discuss how ridiculously agressive the woodelfes are. In the lore they are discribed as a rather defensive faction which is trying to protect athel loren. I think orion and durthu did not quit understand that and decided to just murder EVERYONE.
Second of all I think the woodelf infantry(dryads and tree kin especially are relativly over-powered right know. Like what is up with that. I had cases where I lost with a gigantic army build.
Third of all I wanted to discuss something which has been bothering me since the patch. The so called "beastmen haitred" seems really wierd. When you are playing as the beastmen in grand campaign the WE just leave theire terretorry immediatly to search and kill me. No matter who I start with by turn 5 durthu is knocking at my ****..ing door telling me to get the hell out. Anyone else encoutering this immense agression? I kind of dont understand it since no other faction seems to be behaving that way even when at war!
«1

Comments

  • corvus_codex#4567corvus_codex#4567 Junior Member SpainRegistered Users Posts: 3,073
    if the AI control Wood elves, they are OP,
    if the player control wood elves, they are just... fine.
    image
    "I am the harbinger of your demise. I am the nightmare in all mortals. I am the thing you fear the most. I am death..."
    —Valkia the Bloody.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,334
    corvo said:

    if the AI control Wood elves, they are OP,
    if the player control wood elves, they are just... fine.


    totally not OP right with getting near the missile damage of a great cannon. Though the person who took the screenshot did say that they were melting lords (even though they were using 6 waywatchers focus firing)

    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/5jt0wx/for_reference_a_great_cannon_does_192_missile/?sort=top
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    I see the triple-gold rank on the Waywatchers and the fact this is late game GC where red general and research buffs apply and immediately question the whole thing.

    Did he compare it to a late-game, all research, triple-gold rank cannon as well?
  • mahboi1mahboi1 Member Registered Users Posts: 801
    While the balance issues can be argued, their current aggressive nature is factually incorrect, to the point where they almost need to expand far and wide, which is not how they should walk. It's to the point where their campaign mechanics might need to be completely redone.
    Sigmar wills it!
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,334
    edited February 2017

    I see the triple-gold rank on the Waywatchers and the fact this is late game GC where red general and research buffs apply and immediately question the whole thing.

    Did he compare it to a late-game, all research, triple-gold rank cannon as well?

    "These definitely aren't the highest values you can get, as most territories I established outposts in were coastal regions that don't allow you to build the +1% missile damage buff."
    "The lord has full points in the red tree ranged damage bonus for his army, and they were fighting in a forest map, and were sitting in some trees for the screenshot. Waystalker has maxed out his combat tree."
    " I did remember after initially replying that a good chunk of it probably came from the research tree point that gives you +25% missile damage when fighting beastmen. So theres 15% reload speed from the waystalker's skill tree, 12% reload speed and 15% damage from the lord's red tree, 25% damage fighting beastmen, and 12% + 12% = 24% missile damage from sight beyond sight and eye of kurnous (which do seem to stack). Then maybe 3 or 4% from outposts. "
    "This is super late campaign"

    He only mentions the Great Cannon in Title. the missile damage he mentions is 192 haven't been able to check ingame because I've been working on a mod for another game.

    Basically never left AI Wood Elves live.
    He did leave a gif of melting a Beastmen lord

    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Fully upgraded, ranked and general-supported Elven Elite Archers actually being effective?

    I still fail to see the problem here.
  • epic_159733007811cHJwei4epic_159733007811cHJwei4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    I have to agree with @Ephraim_Dalton here, he used 6 Waywatchers which are absurdly expensive and small units and focus fired a single model unit.

    I've done similar things with handgunners tbh against lords like Archaon (not quite as fast but certainly within 15 seconds or so). Massed missiles, especially armor piercing missiles, can be stupid strong against single entity units.
  • RikRiorik#9890RikRiorik#9890 Registered Users Posts: 12,002
    edited February 2017
    Beastmen hatred is spot on. Searching far and wide for Beastmen to murder them is perfectly fine. Even more so if it is a Morghur led army.

    But consuming most of the Old World like a forest wild fire is a tad out of place.

    Since Wood Elf release I have made the Woodies pretty much my first order of business in every campaign with every faction as soon as the immediate goals of securing a couple of provinces and taking care of the regular starting threats are met. As long as they don't go to war with you first their armies are usually up and about leaving their pitiful realm open for burnination as soon as you can get some armies there. So far I have been most annoyed with them playing as Chaos because they had taken over so many juicy targets before I could get to them and there is a an immense difference between getting 500-1000 favour for sacking a settlement and 10k-45k.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    For the record, a full-rank Great Cannon does 247 damage. A full-rank Steam Tank 520. Even a Hellblaster Volley Gun does 350 or so damage at max XP and that's just veterancy-buffs, they get stronger if you count research and red-tree induced buffs. Reload time of a full-rank Great Cannon is also only slightly more than double that of a full-rank Waywatcher but they can hit their targets from quite further away.

    Again, I'd expect an expensive unit like Waywatchers to perform well at full-rank, otherwise why bring them?
  • Lord_Nathanael#8065Lord_Nathanael#8065 Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism

    Umm,l 171 isn't "30 times more " than 247.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,166
    edited February 2017

    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism

    30 times? As in Great Cannon does 5.7 damage?

    I think you need to look at some in game stats.
  • ColdWaterFlat#2525ColdWaterFlat#2525 Registered Users Posts: 115
    I dunno, I played the Beastmen and the Wood Elves were the first to be extincted. They simply never had the numbers, you can charge so many bodies at them. Durthu got chopped into matchsticks by Minotaurs and Gorebulls.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    HoneyBun said:

    Nope. I was wrong.

    There is a campaign problem.

    For some reason the minute a WE stack is on screen you CANNOT hide. You become instantly visible to all WE and WE allies.

    So literally within 4 turns of my last post I was toast. The Beastmen trick is to hide. It just doesn't work if everyone can see you.

    (FYI there were no 'X horde is discovered' messages). The AI simply acted as though I was fully visible)

    I apologise to the OP. This is broke.

    I just started a Morghur campaign and evaded Durthu by hiding...
  • RikRiorik#9890RikRiorik#9890 Registered Users Posts: 12,002
    Beastmen is the only Grand Campaign I have yet to play. Apart from Argwylon and Bloody Hands. Looking forward to trying to see how they play with the Woodies. I imagine they will have a harder time than Warriors of Chaos. Unless of course you just move north and smack up the Norscans.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
  • corvus_codex#4567corvus_codex#4567 Junior Member SpainRegistered Users Posts: 3,073
    edited February 2017
    Right now, im playing a beastmen campain with Morghur, and you know what?, first time i face the wood elves, arround turn 40, I have fought in a battle, seemingly matched, and each of his melee troops, has killed around 300 of my beastmen 300! and they And they were low-tier troops! (except for 2 dancers)

    I repeat, his melee troops, not his archers!,

    Also they just have a god-like moral, I saw 4 stag charging and winnig a fight against a pike gors units Which was half health.

    EDIT:

    i forgot to said, I lost the battle, them just for trying I autoresolve the same battle, and win with a close victory. come on!...
    Post edited by corvus_codex#4567 on
    image
    "I am the harbinger of your demise. I am the nightmare in all mortals. I am the thing you fear the most. I am death..."
    —Valkia the Bloody.
  • epic_159733007811cHJwei4epic_159733007811cHJwei4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    HoneyBun said:

    Nope. I was wrong.

    There is a campaign problem.

    For some reason the minute a WE stack is on screen you CANNOT hide. You become instantly visible to all WE and WE allies.

    So literally within 4 turns of my last post I was toast. The Beastmen trick is to hide. It just doesn't work if everyone can see you.

    (FYI there were no 'X horde is discovered' messages). The AI simply acted as though I was fully visible)

    I apologise to the OP. This is broke.

    That's weird...I did a coop game as Wood Elves with a friend who was Morghur, he was able to hide from both me (even though we were allies) AND the AI Wood Elves he was at war with.
  • Lord_Nathanael#8065Lord_Nathanael#8065 Registered Users Posts: 1,496

    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism

    Umm,l 171 isn't "30 times more " than 247.
    *sigh* how many models/archers are in one unit of WWs? versus how many cannons in a unit?
    I wasn't even considering their fire rate differences, it probably would be closer to 100 times more damage then


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • Lord_Nathanael#8065Lord_Nathanael#8065 Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    MrJade said:

    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism

    30 times? As in Great Cannon does 5.7 damage?

    I think you need to look at some in game stats.
    nope, you should, again, same as with dalton

    you have to multiply the damage with the amount of entities in a unit that can fire, 60 WWs vs 3 cannons, granted its only between 10 and 20 times more damage, but that alone is a bigger performance jump than any other comparable source in the game, the strongest melee unit in the game is by far not 15 times stronger than the weakest one
    if you add their different fire rates, you easily see by what a magnitude (like 30 - 100 times more damage) these buffed WWs outperform every other ranged or artillery unit in the game, unless the other side is woodelf too with similar buffs

    thats bonkers, right?

    and no, other factions buffs are not anywhere near that stackable


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,166
    edited February 2017

    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism

    Umm,l 171 isn't "30 times more " than 247.
    *sigh* how many models/archers are in one unit of WWs? versus how many cannons in a unit?
    I wasn't even considering their fire rate differences, it probably would be closer to 100 times more damage then
    Great Cannons do 259 damage at max veterancy barring any general or tech upgrades, so that this 259 is the minimum damage a cannon can do.

    With 35 WW and 2 Cannons, that's a raw damage of 5,985 on the WW and 518, or 8.7% of the WW damage. After research the maximum damge is 580, or 9.7% of the WW.

    This doesn't include fire rate or range, with the Cannon outranging WW at a range of 450 vs 180.

    This being said, a full 25% of that damage comes from fighting Beastmen.

    Fixed damage for the unit would be 4,489 vs 580, or 12.9%.

    Do the WW have lots of damage? Yes, but they don't have a lot of time to use it, and their arrows do not penetrate armor, do not cause terror when being shot, and don't have a whole lot of ammunition, whereas the Cannons can eventually have nearly 50% more ammunition.

    In conclusion, no. 7.75 times the damage is accurate, not 30, and certainly not 100, and again, that doesn't include range or length of battle.
  • Lord_Nathanael#8065Lord_Nathanael#8065 Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    edited February 2017
    MrJade said:

    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism

    Umm,l 171 isn't "30 times more " than 247.
    *sigh* how many models/archers are in one unit of WWs? versus how many cannons in a unit?
    I wasn't even considering their fire rate differences, it probably would be closer to 100 times more damage then
    Great Cannons do 259 damage at max veterancy barring any general or tech upgrades, so that this 259 is the minimum damage a cannon can do.

    With 35 WW and 2 Cannons, that's a raw damage of 5,985 on the WW and 518, or 8.7% of the WW damage. After research the maximum damge is 580, or 9.7% of the WW.

    This doesn't include fire rate or range, with the Cannon outranging WW at a range of 450 vs 180.

    This being said, a full 25% of that damage comes from fighting Beastmen.

    Fixed damage for the unit would be 4,489 vs 580, or 12.9%.

    Do the WW have lots of damage? Yes, but they don't have a lot of time to use it, and their arrows do not penetrate armor, do not cause terror when being shot, and don't have a whole lot of ammunition, whereas the Cannons can eventually have nearly 50% more ammunition.

    In conclusion, no. 7.75 times the damage is accurate, not 30, and certainly not 30, and again, that doesn't include range or length of battle.
    rate of fire, how many volley do they get off in the time it takes cannons?
    they also have stalk, meaning you can't really punish them with artillery anyway before they are in range

    also that raw damage, can you honestly find it anywhere near ok, that they can overkill any other ranged unit in one volley?
    like, what? I dont even....


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,166


    rate of fire, how many volley do they get off in the time it takes cannons?
    they also have stalk, meaning you can't really punish them with artillery anyway before they are in range

    Fully teched cannons with generals fire at 27% faster rates, and what kind of artillery general doesn't have a cavalry screen in front of the cannons? One that wants to lose that's who.

    Even best case 3 times faster WW speed and range isn't an issue, it's still only 23.3 times the damage. Keep in mind that is with lots of assumptions.

    Furthermore, at the point were WW are a thing, just use Steamtanks. Without armor piercing WW are just so much goop on the ground.

  • Lord_Nathanael#8065Lord_Nathanael#8065 Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    edited February 2017
    MrJade said:


    rate of fire, how many volley do they get off in the time it takes cannons?
    they also have stalk, meaning you can't really punish them with artillery anyway before they are in range

    Fully teched cannons with generals fire at 27% faster rates, and what kind of artillery general doesn't have a cavalry screen in front of the cannons? One that wants to lose that's who.

    Even best case 3 times faster WW speed and range isn't an issue, it's still only 23.3 times the damage. Keep in mind that is with lots of assumptions.

    Furthermore, at the point were WW are a thing, just use Steamtanks. Without armor piercing WW are just so much goop on the ground.

    man...
    Im really sorry, but no matter how you try to defend this stats... 10.000 raw damage in one volley every 3 or so seconds by a single WW unit is something that should not be possible, and definitly not so easy, all you need are some techs, a early to mid level general, a few settlements and your archers deal 10k raw damage per volley? yeah no

    this needs fixing

    I respect your oppinion, but seriously, nope


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,166


    man...
    Im really sorry, but no matter how you try to defend this stats... 10.000 raw damage in one volley every 3 or so seconds by a single WW unit is something that should not be possible, and definitly not so easy, all you need are some techs, a early to mid level general, a few settlements and your archers deal 10k raw damage per volley? yeah no

    this needs fixing

    I respect your oppinion, but seriously, nope

    I get it, but again, it's actually 4.5k or so, and there are other factors (lack of armor penetration on that unit, shields can just flat block the entire damage, wards, saves, etc.). I understand your frustration, but in game, I have yet to have them be a problem, and I've done plenty of VH/L games.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    I feel the WE problem is more an issue of the campaign and how WE are set up, not WE being OP.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    Furthermore, at the point were WW are a thing, just use Steamtanks. Without armor piercing WW are just so much goop on the ground.
    Dude, they are armor piercing...

    Without cheesing the hell out of things with stacking buffs in forests with a Waystalker against Beastmen, Wood Elf archers can still more than double their output. It's like the faction was designed by a completely different team than all the rest. The only faction that comes close is Clan Angrund, with the bogus stacking ranger upgrades that make them super good compared to regular Dwarf upgrades, but still nowhere near as good as Wood Elves.

    They're a completely different scale from the original factions. Skarsnik's Goblin upgrades are as hilariously bogus, but those are on goblin units, and goblins suck donkey balls, so getting dozens of points added to their attack score isn't that horrifying.
  • Pray#3234Pray#3234 Registered Users Posts: 1,583

    corvo said:

    if the AI control Wood elves, they are OP,
    if the player control wood elves, they are just... fine.


    totally not OP right with getting near the missile damage of a great cannon. Though the person who took the screenshot did say that they were melting lords (even though they were using 6 waywatchers focus firing)

    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/5jt0wx/for_reference_a_great_cannon_does_192_missile/?sort=top

    Well cheat player . if in real Campaign . he will really lack of economy cause every out post need to be dmg out post .
  • Nomad_Soul88Nomad_Soul88 Registered Users Posts: 14
    I lol'd at that gif posted above. Might as well have been charging a line of machine guns.

    I can definitely confirm the Wood Elves very aggressively pursue a Beastman player on the campaign map. And they do it with what seems to be omniscience. I played a Morghur grand campaign recently and they would consistently send up stacks to wherever I was in or around the Empire and zero right in on me. It didn't look they were searching, they simply knew where I was at all times. It was normal difficulty, so my multiple stacks managed well enough, and I suppose it certainly made things more interesting having a true nemesis, but I certainly had to eventually pause my reign of terror on the humans to head in and burn down the whole of Athel Loren to get them off my back. Legendary must be a wee bit tricky for Beastmen, though.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited February 2017

    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism

    Umm,l 171 isn't "30 times more " than 247.
    *sigh* how many models/archers are in one unit of WWs? versus how many cannons in a unit?
    I wasn't even considering their fire rate differences, it probably would be closer to 100 times more damage then
    *sigh*

    1.Waywatchers to little AP damage, cannons a whole lot. So you have to subtract potentially quite a bit from the WW's damage output

    2.Cannons do AOE damage and therefore their damage multiplies every time they hit a unit

    3.Cannonballs cannot be blocked by shields, unlike arrows from Waywatchers

    Comment removed.

    Post edited by dge1 on
  • HircaneHircane Registered Users Posts: 119
    HoneyBun said:

    Nope. I was wrong.

    There is a campaign problem.

    For some reason the minute a WE stack is on screen you CANNOT hide. You become instantly visible to all WE and WE allies.

    So literally within 4 turns of my last post I was toast. The Beastmen trick is to hide. It just doesn't work if everyone can see you.

    (FYI there were no 'X horde is discovered' messages). The AI simply acted as though I was fully visible)

    I apologise to the OP. This is broke.

    Exactly what I was talking about. They instantly discover you and reck your ****.
Sign In or Register to comment.