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IF naval combat makes it in TWW, will there need to be a separate economy system?

hendo’hendo’ Registered Users Posts: 2,864
edited March 2017 in General Discussion
I noticed something about total war warhammer (many have probably realized already). TWW seems to be designed to have a low number of armies (at least until far in the mid-late to late-game), and this seems to be supported by the economy systems, events, and rewards and unit costs.

If navies enter the game, do you think an adjustment would have to be made so players would be able to simultaneously have their land armies and fleets? Or perhaps a separate economy system? Maybe it would be a matter of having to choose your force, land or sea?---(I do not mean permanently).
What do you think?

This thread might be viewed as premature, with no naval combat confirmation from CA (yet), but for those, how do you like the current TWW money system? Do you like the economic challenge and more concentrated armies? Or I'm cray (typo but I'm leaving it lol), and the current system is fine-- just split forces, for instance, 1 army and 1 fleet? What do you think?
Post edited by hendo’ on
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Comments

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Registered Users Posts: 2,009
    I think ports would get more attention. Could even get more types of ports, such as economic ports and military ports.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,070
    I think large fleets will probably be fairly rare and built for specific purposes. They won't change the entire economy and they can't make ships dirt cheap, or they'll get spammed.

    If they introduce navies, I'd expect admirals to get cost reductions in their skill trees. At first you can only support a couple of ships, as your admiral levels you can get larger fleets thanks to his skills. The more fleets, the more each unit costs (same as armies and generals) but they won't affect land forces and vice versa. Perhaps there will also be some techs added to deal with fleet upkeep.

    Perhaps famous naval powers, like the High Elves, won't get additional upkeep per admiral (like Brets with generals).

    There will also need to be incentive to have fleets other than simple defence/offence, or more land-locked factions will benefit.
  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    I really hope if naval gameplay makes it finally in, that there either will be incentives to produce navies, such as:
    TW:E like trade slot locations you need to occupy with navies

    OR if not, that navy upkeep is based entirely on strategic ressources, such as lumber, iron and cinnabarit (english spelling?) with a small free margin for certain factions, like marienburg or bordeleaux

    otherwise players will just ignore the feature and go for towns and cities directly while avoiding navy combat


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,070
    Yup. If there's not a big strategic or economic benefit to having a navy then certain factions will suffer out of proportion to others.

    So let's say you have The Empire vs the Vampire Count. The Vamps are landlocked, so all their military spending can go on armies - whilst the Empire, due to the new threats added by game two and naval warfare, will have to split resources between armies and navies.

    There are a few ways I can think of to make up for that , from colonies, to increased port income, to trading zones - so it'll be interesting to see what CA does.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,482
    If they do it, they might have it so that the lord penalty doesn't cross over. You'd be able to have an admiral and a general without getting extra upkeep.
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  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    It's an interesting question posed by the OP. I'd argue that you have to choose what to invest your money into, it's a key part of a strategy game, to make tough choices. On the other hand I only now have 3 semi-competent armies in my Bretonnian game and see little chance of affording a navy if I was to face the races of Game 2.

    I suppose one could make navies, at least the upkeep, really cheap, and as some people point out, involve the docks.
    I don't buy having a separate resource for everyone for their navies, sounds like an annoying amount of work, but what of a cap? Say ships are cheap, but the max you can have are affected by your number of ports who add to the max?
    Special ports like Bordelaux, Marienburg and MIragliano: 20 ships.
    Provincial capital ports: 10 ships.
    Minor settlement ports: 5 ships.

    Not sure how it would all come together though. I think one has to look to the whole picture. With my above suggestion, I wouldn't want navies able to attack settlements, because the norse would end up probably burning down both Marienburg and Altdorf, at the very least. Rather the navies would be better off being a sort of deterrent and escort against and for sea-bound armies.
    Also, they would of course be able to raid coasts via a stance, making naval trade a bit more problematic.
    Don't worry.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,482
    Setrus, not a bad idea. I imagine they could pull off something about Lumber if they wanted a different resource, but lets be fair here, the dock idea basically means that docks are the new resource. Perhaps dock level should matter as well.
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  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    Canuovea said:

    Setrus, not a bad idea. I imagine they could pull off something about Lumber if they wanted a different resource, but lets be fair here, the dock idea basically means that docks are the new resource. Perhaps dock level should matter as well.

    Ohhh, that's brilliant. The higher the dock, the higher the addition it gives to the cap?
    Don't worry.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,226
    I think they will likely reintroduce the trading lanes that you see on the map in other Total War Games, originating from ports and going to other ports. They could also go down the route of allowing trading expeditions to far off Cathy and Ind etc. (perhaps similar to Shogun 2).

    These would provide large economic incentives to build and maintain big fleets to either defend your trade or engage in piracy by targeting a trade lane with one of your fleets.

    This worked quite well in the past, as part of the overall economic system.

    Whether they could also expand it to a system of overland trade caravans in game 2 or 3 is another question.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,482
    Setrus said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus, not a bad idea. I imagine they could pull off something about Lumber if they wanted a different resource, but lets be fair here, the dock idea basically means that docks are the new resource. Perhaps dock level should matter as well.

    Ohhh, that's brilliant. The higher the dock, the higher the addition it gives to the cap?
    Exactly. It also really does make sense the more I think about it. Docks are what allowed Navies to actually be built and maintained. It would also allow for the High Elves to have quite a large navy, as they would have a lot of docks. A LOT of docks.
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  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    Canuovea said:

    Setrus said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus, not a bad idea. I imagine they could pull off something about Lumber if they wanted a different resource, but lets be fair here, the dock idea basically means that docks are the new resource. Perhaps dock level should matter as well.

    Ohhh, that's brilliant. The higher the dock, the higher the addition it gives to the cap?
    Exactly. It also really does make sense the more I think about it. Docks are what allowed Navies to actually be built and maintained. It would also allow for the High Elves to have quite a large navy, as they would have a lot of docks. A LOT of docks.
    Indeed. And the norse would get plenty of longships and due to their special port Marienburg would be powerful defending their trade while Estalia and Tilea would get an interesting niche as old world naval powers.
    Heck, it would also allow for strategies like Alexander employed against the persians. By landing and striking at the enemy ports, you deny their ability to act. Perhaps if you have more ships than the cap allows due to losses of docks, attrition will set in unless your ships are already docked?
    It sounds really good in my ears. :)

    Don't worry.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,482
    Setrus said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus, not a bad idea. I imagine they could pull off something about Lumber if they wanted a different resource, but lets be fair here, the dock idea basically means that docks are the new resource. Perhaps dock level should matter as well.

    Ohhh, that's brilliant. The higher the dock, the higher the addition it gives to the cap?
    Exactly. It also really does make sense the more I think about it. Docks are what allowed Navies to actually be built and maintained. It would also allow for the High Elves to have quite a large navy, as they would have a lot of docks. A LOT of docks.
    Indeed. And the norse would get plenty of longships and due to their special port Marienburg would be powerful defending their trade while Estalia and Tilea would get an interesting niche as old world naval powers.
    Heck, it would also allow for strategies like Alexander employed against the persians. By landing and striking at the enemy ports, you deny their ability to act. Perhaps if you have more ships than the cap allows due to losses of docks, attrition will set in unless your ships are already docked?
    It sounds really good in my ears. :)

    Ah, and Estalia would work well too. A capital dock and two smaller ones. Tilea could get a special one. Erengrad as well, giving Kislev a way to defend against the Norscans.

    Attrition setting in makes a lot of sense too, as the ships cannot be properly maintained.

    I'm suddenly liking this idea as well. At first I was ambivalent about how to implement naval combat, but...
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  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,226
    HoneyBun said:

    The fact that the River Reik is navigable is an amazing tactical change. No other iteration of TW would have done that.

    The fact that no one notices this or uses the river is indicative of the fact that WH needs the added tactical element of the sea. That must include some element of sea based profit!

    Yes there is also lot of trade flowing up and down the Reik on barges as it's usually far safer than going overland even within the Empire.
  • ThorrkThorrk Registered Users Posts: 118
    I think they will have to give an economic bonus for port (and port only) so coastal factions can afford to maintain a decent fleet and a ground army. To counterbalance this buff, they should implement pirate and sea monsters that will force you to have and use your navy.

    Also they need to make sure that river battle and economy is a thing, so then every faction can enjoy naval combat. Why not even underground battles so factions fight over control of water table (important source of drinkable water).
  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,226
    Canuovea said:

    Setrus said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus, not a bad idea. I imagine they could pull off something about Lumber if they wanted a different resource, but lets be fair here, the dock idea basically means that docks are the new resource. Perhaps dock level should matter as well.

    Ohhh, that's brilliant. The higher the dock, the higher the addition it gives to the cap?
    Exactly. It also really does make sense the more I think about it. Docks are what allowed Navies to actually be built and maintained. It would also allow for the High Elves to have quite a large navy, as they would have a lot of docks. A LOT of docks.
    Not personally a big fan of the idea of a fleet population cap based on number of ports. I think a production cap on the number of ships you can produce is enough. Warships should be expensive, especially the legendary Men O' War. Transports can be extremely cheap (or even hired as required) in comparison, but incredibly vulnerable if not defended.

    I prefer the fleets to be allowed to grow over time, alongside the expense to maintain them. That gives players some choice in how big they want their fleets, and the composition of ships - rather than having to capture more ports.
  • NazredNazred Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 980

    This is a very good point. I was thinking about this myself. Maintaining armies is hard as it is already. In my Bretonna campaign I have all of Bretonnia and I am still barely capable of maintaining two armies. If you have to pay for a naval fleet as well....
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    edited March 2017
    Canuovea said:

    Setrus said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus, not a bad idea. I imagine they could pull off something about Lumber if they wanted a different resource, but lets be fair here, the dock idea basically means that docks are the new resource. Perhaps dock level should matter as well.

    Ohhh, that's brilliant. The higher the dock, the higher the addition it gives to the cap?
    Exactly. It also really does make sense the more I think about it. Docks are what allowed Navies to actually be built and maintained. It would also allow for the High Elves to have quite a large navy, as they would have a lot of docks. A LOT of docks.
    Indeed. And the norse would get plenty of longships and due to their special port Marienburg would be powerful defending their trade while Estalia and Tilea would get an interesting niche as old world naval powers.
    Heck, it would also allow for strategies like Alexander employed against the persians. By landing and striking at the enemy ports, you deny their ability to act. Perhaps if you have more ships than the cap allows due to losses of docks, attrition will set in unless your ships are already docked?
    It sounds really good in my ears. :)

    Ah, and Estalia would work well too. A capital dock and two smaller ones. Tilea could get a special one. Erengrad as well, giving Kislev a way to defend against the Norscans.

    Attrition setting in makes a lot of sense too, as the ships cannot be properly maintained.

    I'm suddenly liking this idea as well. At first I was ambivalent about how to implement naval combat, but...
    Indeed. I think Magritta is already, technically, a special city, so making it a special port should not be any trouble. Erengrad is already a special port, I think? I recall it being good last time I took the town.

    Agreed, would make ports important to defend as well if you're relying on your navy a lot.

    It has to fit into the larger narrative of things, no? Naval combat for the sake of naval combat is not as engaging and necessary as the naval combat to defend your invasion of transported armies, obviously. :)
    Now, the battles themselves is of course another beast entirely.
    Rifugio said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus said:

    Canuovea said:

    Setrus, not a bad idea. I imagine they could pull off something about Lumber if they wanted a different resource, but lets be fair here, the dock idea basically means that docks are the new resource. Perhaps dock level should matter as well.

    Ohhh, that's brilliant. The higher the dock, the higher the addition it gives to the cap?
    Exactly. It also really does make sense the more I think about it. Docks are what allowed Navies to actually be built and maintained. It would also allow for the High Elves to have quite a large navy, as they would have a lot of docks. A LOT of docks.
    Not personally a big fan of the idea of a fleet population cap based on number of ports. I think a production cap on the number of ships you can produce is enough. Warships should be expensive, especially the legendary Men O' War. Transports can be extremely cheap (or even hired as required) in comparison, but incredibly vulnerable if not defended.

    I prefer the fleets to be allowed to grow over time, alongside the expense to maintain them. That gives players some choice in how big they want their fleets, and the composition of ships - rather than having to capture more ports.
    I'm not sure exactly what you mean about a "production cap"? What's a production cap? Do you mean something like az88's reply? Because he only seemed to really touch on admiral's skills making fleets viable and such...
    No, sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. :/
    How do you get the production cap? How do you increase it? How do you...spend it?
    Don't worry.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,226
    edited March 2017
    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,950
    I think the narrative of the problem downplays the usefulness of fleets.

    Let's take the example: Empire vs VC

    In the vast majority of cases, the Empire will not just fight the VC, but also others, especially norsca.

    And with a good fleet you can probably shut them down. Perhaps better then an army would.

    Besides the other opportunities to perhaps simply raid and razed the coast of others.

    Nevertheless fleet upkeep could be a challange.

    The easiest would be that let people have a equal number of fleets and army at the same logistic level.

    Hence if you have 3 armies and 1 fleet you pay as much extra if you would have 3 armies only.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    Don't worry.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,226
    edited March 2017
    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    I don't know exactly how many ships will be the maximum for a fleet, but I don't believe in capping the number of ships or even fleets by the number of ports that you own would add any real value to gameplay. Rather it just restricts choice to develop any sort of worthwhile Navy you will need to capture ports. Given enough time one port could generate multiple ships and likely multiple fleets. This has been done very well in other TW games I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel here.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,070
    Rifugio said:

    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    Exactly my point, I don't know exactly how many ships will be the maximum for a fleet, but I don't believe in capping the number of ships or even fleets by the number of ports that you own. Given enough time one port could generate multiple ships and likely multiple fleets. This has been done very well in other TW games I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel here.
    Will it not need to be 20 per fleet? If land armies can embark, then the navy mechanic needs to allow for 20 ships per fleet in battles.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    Rifugio said:

    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    Exactly my point, I don't know exactly how many ships will be the maximum for a fleet, but I don't believe in capping the number of ships or even fleets by the number of ports that you own. Given enough time one port could generate multiple ships and likely multiple fleets. This has been done very well in other TW games I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel here.
    Rather than hard-capping the number of ships, what if the number of ports and the level of the ports decreased the upkeep/recruitment of ships? The current economy is balanced around not having ships, so I understand the need to increase that. Adding in more lucrative naval trade routes, sea raiding, and lower upkeep should do the trick.
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    Rifugio said:

    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    I don't know exactly how many ships will be the maximum for a fleet, but I don't believe in capping the number of ships or even fleets by the number of ports that you own would add any real value to gameplay. Rather it just restricts choice to develop any sort of worthwhile Navy you will need to capture ports. Given enough time one port could generate multiple ships and likely multiple fleets. This has been done very well in other TW games I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel here.
    az88 said:

    Rifugio said:

    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    Exactly my point, I don't know exactly how many ships will be the maximum for a fleet, but I don't believe in capping the number of ships or even fleets by the number of ports that you own. Given enough time one port could generate multiple ships and likely multiple fleets. This has been done very well in other TW games I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel here.
    Will it not need to be 20 per fleet? If land armies can embark, then the navy mechanic needs to allow for 20 ships per fleet in battles.
    As az88 says, it's no reinventing the wheel, really here. It's almost back to basics with a population cap like in Medieval 2 or supply points from Starcraft.
    A fleet might have 3 recruitment slots in most ports, some ships take more than 1 turn to recruit, the maximum number of slots for a fleet is 20, the number of ports and their level determines the total number of ships your faction can have.
    The last bit, with the cap, I added because in my initial idea I mentioned the fleets being very cheap so as to not make it too prohibitive to have them when you need a good army or several to fight on land. But a cheap fleet without a cap means you'd end up with loooots of ships, which isn't good either. :)

    I mean, I guess you could have a decently high upkeep for the ships, but then you'd likely not be able to afford them...as MrJade says, the game is balanced around no fleets, if fleets are to be added, they need to be affordable yet also not spammed out. I was merely offering a way to do that without changing the income every building gives and the like. Making naval units capped with a cheap upkeep sounds easier. :)
    Don't worry.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    Probably just act from port to port like previous games i'd think.


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  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,070
    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    I don't know exactly how many ships will be the maximum for a fleet, but I don't believe in capping the number of ships or even fleets by the number of ports that you own would add any real value to gameplay. Rather it just restricts choice to develop any sort of worthwhile Navy you will need to capture ports. Given enough time one port could generate multiple ships and likely multiple fleets. This has been done very well in other TW games I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel here.
    az88 said:

    Rifugio said:

    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    Exactly my point, I don't know exactly how many ships will be the maximum for a fleet, but I don't believe in capping the number of ships or even fleets by the number of ports that you own. Given enough time one port could generate multiple ships and likely multiple fleets. This has been done very well in other TW games I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel here.
    Will it not need to be 20 per fleet? If land armies can embark, then the navy mechanic needs to allow for 20 ships per fleet in battles.
    As az88 says, it's no reinventing the wheel, really here. It's almost back to basics with a population cap like in Medieval 2 or supply points from Starcraft.
    A fleet might have 3 recruitment slots in most ports, some ships take more than 1 turn to recruit, the maximum number of slots for a fleet is 20, the number of ports and their level determines the total number of ships your faction can have.
    The last bit, with the cap, I added because in my initial idea I mentioned the fleets being very cheap so as to not make it too prohibitive to have them when you need a good army or several to fight on land. But a cheap fleet without a cap means you'd end up with loooots of ships, which isn't good either. :)

    I mean, I guess you could have a decently high upkeep for the ships, but then you'd likely not be able to afford them...as MrJade says, the game is balanced around no fleets, if fleets are to be added, they need to be affordable yet also not spammed out. I was merely offering a way to do that without changing the income every building gives and the like. Making naval units capped with a cheap upkeep sounds easier. :)
    Or, a cap that works just like the Bretonnian Knights and vows.

    You can have ships, but they're prohibitively expensive unless your admiral gets perks that reduce their cost.

    Personally, I like the dock-related cap; but there strike me as lots of ways to do it.
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    You're quite right, az88, I too like the dock-cap idea, but there's plenty of ways to do it.
    I just hope navies will be economically viable without being a pain on the campaign map...oh and for fun naval battles. ;)
    Don't worry.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,070
    Agreed, Setrus. I think suggestions that they'll rebalance the entire economic or military system are fanciful, so it'll be about making fleets attainable without their being spammed. Agents are already hard-capped by buildings, so there's no reason fleets couldn't be.

    In fact, you could have a dual system. The number of admirals hard-capped by dock buildings and then the cost of ships in the admiral's fleet determined by perks. That'd mean that civs with lots of ports would have a clear advantage (and need one, as they have to protect more places, but wouldn't necessarily be able to spam fleets of uber ships.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Registered Users Posts: 1,226
    edited March 2017
    az88 said:

    Rifugio said:

    Setrus said:

    Rifugio said:

    A production cap is just the number of slots you have available to recruit new units... Likely there is a better term. For example when you start out you can only usually recruit a certain number of units per turn in a settlement. Some may take several turns but you cannot use that slot up for anything else in the meantime.

    So in this example a port like Marienburg may have 2 or 3 recruitment slots for naval units.

    Well sure, but I don't really see how that is a either/or scenario. We have that soft cap for Bretonnian peasants right now, but we still can only recruit a certain number in any one province. So if the ports create a set cap for how many units you can have, that doesn't mean you can recruit a 20-stack of ships right on the first turn. :)

    Exactly my point, I don't know exactly how many ships will be the maximum for a fleet, but I don't believe in capping the number of ships or even fleets by the number of ports that you own. Given enough time one port could generate multiple ships and likely multiple fleets. This has been done very well in other TW games I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel here.
    Will it not need to be 20 per fleet? If land armies can embark, then the navy mechanic needs to allow for 20 ships per fleet in battles.
    Not necessarily - it may not be one ship for each unit, or maybe transports will not count towards fleet maximums. I'd prefer that transports were not a big part of the Naval combat system - which I'd like to be focused more strongly on the fighting ships, if the escorts lose then there would be a heavy toll on the transports. A lot will depend on how they implement the Naval warfare. I do believe in fleet caps but rather based on the number of Legendary "Man O' War" type ships you can field in a particular fleet. Perhaps limiting to one per admiral. That's if the Man O'' War board game/lore is used as a basis.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,886
    HoneyBun said:

    The fact that the River Reik is navigable is an amazing tactical change. No other iteration of TW would have done that.

    The fact that no one notices this or uses the river is indicative of the fact that WH needs the added tactical element of the sea. That must include some element of sea based profit!

    You know you can sale up the Nile, Danube and Rhine in Rome 2 right?
    81jt2dj75iky.png


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