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Most broken match-ups?

SoepkiekenSoepkieken Posts: 41Registered Users
Hi,

I want to ask the community about what you all think are the 3 most broken match-ups in MP. I'm not talking about cheese builds here, so no triple steam tank or full gyrocopters or anything like that, but normal balanced armies that still find themselves in a very unfair situation generally.

My own top 3:

1) Wood Elves vs Dwarfs

=> All the magic damage from the Wood Elves makes their roster very narrow. Wood Elves have almost no non-cheesy answer to units like quarrellers and slayers (who even win against wild wood rangers!). The only way a Wood Elf player can win is by harassing a lot and waiting very long before starting a full engagement, which is then very frustrating for the dwarfs.

2) Chaos vs Vampires

=> Chaos has a lot of trouble with undead war machines, especially the mortis engine. Blood Knights can clear your mobile units and then the Mortis Engine can circle around the slow chaos units and drain them to death. And even the most elite chosen are not immune to fear caused by simple summoned zombies.

3) Greenskins vs Bretonnia

=> The Green Knight, even though he is green, is hated by any greenskin army. Only Azhag can really threaten him with spirit leech, but he is easily killed by your flying squad. Your green knight will be near immortal against the non-magic greenskin army and he can snipe out lords and heroes very well. Greenskins desperately need leaders to stay fighting and the terror that the Green Knight causes only makes it worse.

What are your top 3 broken match-ups and why?

Comments

  • CrimsonflareCrimsonflare Posts: 76Registered Users
    edited March 19
    Wood elves vs dwarves is the worst by far. Every other matchup is winnable and usually fun to play. WE vs dwarves is just torture to play.
    Chaos vs vampires.
    Dwarves vs chaos. Chariots.
  • deckermdeckerm Posts: 74Registered Users
    If they don't fix the dwarf magic resistance thing, soon we'll have chaos daemons vs dwarves that's just as broken as elves vs dwarf, maybe even worse
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 646Registered Users
    I disagree with Chaos v. VC. Fire sorcs and manticores can work over mortis engines and corpse carts.

    But I agree with everything else. I had to take a break from WE because people started last minute switching to Dwarfs.
  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 2,033Registered Users
    Zergles said:

    I disagree with Chaos v. VC. Fire sorcs and manticores can work over mortis engines and corpse carts.

    So one side can spend all its mana to throw little balls of Fire at one single model, hoping to maybe kill it, and the other side can use its mana to restore it's entire army to full health, but that is balanced in your book?
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 646Registered Users
    salsicha said:

    Zergles said:

    I disagree with Chaos v. VC. Fire sorcs and manticores can work over mortis engines and corpse carts.

    So one side can spend all its mana to throw little balls of Fire at one single model, hoping to maybe kill it, and the other side can use its mana to restore it's entire army to full health, but that is balanced in your book?


    Well OP's complaint was VC warmachines. Which Chaos CAN deal with by using their magic and their flying units (mounted heroes or manticores) and 2-3 fireballs is pretty far from using all of Chaos' mana. A tough matchup doesn't make it broken. And that's all it is for Chaos. VC can use their weakness against them. But Chaos has several ways to mitigate that. I.e. magic, better/cheaper flyers, and to an extent ranged cavalry.

    If VC healing itself with Invoc of Nehek bothers you, playing against VC as several other factions must **** you off as well. VC is the only faction that can bring unit models back to life reliably, which makes several other factions have a bad time. Even with ranged units to deal with Mortis Engines and Corpse Carts. That isn't a "Chaos Only" issue.

  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 2,033Registered Users
    edited March 19
    It's a Chaos, Greenskins, and Beastmen issue. All three of them basically have to throw everything at killing one unit, and by the time it dies they have lost the rest of the fight.
  • EizoEizo Posts: 431Registered Users
    TBH Greenskin vs Bretonnia isn't really a broken matchup as the Green Knight kind of expensive for what it brings to the table and GS have the Aracknorok queen which is surprising hard for Bretonnia to deal with.

    GS vs VC is way more broken since your probably have to dael with more then one ethereal unit.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 646Registered Users
    edited March 19
    salsicha said:

    It's a Chaos, Greenskins, and Beastmen issue. All three of them basically have to throw everything at killing one unit, and by the time it dies they have lost the rest of the fight.

    It's supposed to be an issue for them. That is the only defense VC has against the three factions that would tear them a new one due to all the high damage, high speed, units. GS (my second most played faction after Beastmen) have a pretty easy time dealing with Mortis Engines, in my experience because they can have tons of archers. The healing and stuff is the least of GS's worries. Fear/Terror is what usually makes them lose. Not being able to stay in combat long enough to actually finish the job. And they have that exact same problem against other armies. Chaos, Beastmen, and Wood Elf terror armies (to me) are worse than dealing with VC healing themselves. I very rarely lose to VC as GS.

    Beastmen don't have to "throw everything" into it either. Beastmen have a bad time in a lot of matchups. VC is one of the worst, sure. But you can win if you build correctly and play on the VC weakness, which is (hopefully) not bringing enough anti large to kill Gorbull, your minitaurs/Spawn, and using your cheap spears to delay Bloodknights. BM magic is also very good against VC since devolve was made viable again, and lore of death is still very good against VC to force crumbling. Lore of Shadows being added to BM is also very nice against VC.

    And we already covered Chaos.

    Boohoo. When those three factions fight VC they have to be careful. That's the point.
  • snowflakesnowflake Posts: 20Registered Users
    Zergles said:

    salsicha said:

    It's a Chaos, Greenskins, and Beastmen issue. All three of them basically have to throw everything at killing one unit, and by the time it dies they have lost the rest of the fight.

    It's supposed to be an issue for them. That is the only defense VC has against the three factions that would tear them a new one due to all the high damage, high speed, units. GS (my second most played faction after Beastmen) have a pretty easy time dealing with Mortis Engines, in my experience because they can have tons of archers. The healing and stuff is the least of GS's worries. Fear/Terror is what usually makes them lose. Not being able to stay in combat long enough to actually finish the job. And they have that exact same problem against other armies. Chaos, Beastmen, and Wood Elf terror armies (to me) are worse than dealing with VC healing themselves. I very rarely lose to VC as GS.

    Beastmen don't have to "throw everything" into it either. Beastmen have a bad time in a lot of matchups. VC is one of the worst, sure. But you can win if you build correctly and play on the VC weakness, which is (hopefully) not bringing enough anti large to kill Gorbull, your minitaurs/Spawn, and using your cheap spears to delay Bloodknights. BM magic is also very good against VC since devolve was made viable again, and lore of death is still very good against VC to force crumbling. Lore of Shadows being added to BM is also very nice against VC.

    And we already covered Chaos.

    Boohoo. When those three factions fight VC they have to be careful. That's the point.
    GS is weak to VC. I'm curious how you can feel 'pretty easy' when you dealing with mortis engine. Cause I've never heard of that from any players.. Of course players tried to use archer spam vs VC, cause it counter both crypt horror and mortis, but VC is still one ofthe strongest because it's not work. Raise dead make archer spamming 'useless'. haven't you any problem with that? really?
  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 2,033Registered Users
    Zergles said:

    salsicha said:

    It's a Chaos, Greenskins, and Beastmen issue. All three of them basically have to throw everything at killing one unit, and by the time it dies they have lost the rest of the fight.

    It's supposed to be an issue for them. That is the only defense VC has against the three factions that would tear them a new one due to all the high damage, high speed, units. GS (my second most played faction after Beastmen) have a pretty easy time dealing with Mortis Engines, in my experience because they can have tons of archers. The healing and stuff is the least of GS's worries. Fear/Terror is what usually makes them lose. Not being able to stay in combat long enough to actually finish the job. And they have that exact same problem against other armies. Chaos, Beastmen, and Wood Elf terror armies (to me) are worse than dealing with VC healing themselves. I very rarely lose to VC as GS.

    Beastmen don't have to "throw everything" into it either. Beastmen have a bad time in a lot of matchups. VC is one of the worst, sure. But you can win if you build correctly and play on the VC weakness, which is (hopefully) not bringing enough anti large to kill Gorbull, your minitaurs/Spawn, and using your cheap spears to delay Bloodknights. BM magic is also very good against VC since devolve was made viable again, and lore of death is still very good against VC to force crumbling. Lore of Shadows being added to BM is also very nice against VC.

    And we already covered Chaos.

    Boohoo. When those three factions fight VC they have to be careful. That's the point.
    I had no idea you were so good, wow you must win all the tournaments.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 646Registered Users
    snowflake said:

    Zergles said:

    salsicha said:

    It's a Chaos, Greenskins, and Beastmen issue. All three of them basically have to throw everything at killing one unit, and by the time it dies they have lost the rest of the fight.

    It's supposed to be an issue for them. That is the only defense VC has against the three factions that would tear them a new one due to all the high damage, high speed, units. GS (my second most played faction after Beastmen) have a pretty easy time dealing with Mortis Engines, in my experience because they can have tons of archers. The healing and stuff is the least of GS's worries. Fear/Terror is what usually makes them lose. Not being able to stay in combat long enough to actually finish the job. And they have that exact same problem against other armies. Chaos, Beastmen, and Wood Elf terror armies (to me) are worse than dealing with VC healing themselves. I very rarely lose to VC as GS.

    Beastmen don't have to "throw everything" into it either. Beastmen have a bad time in a lot of matchups. VC is one of the worst, sure. But you can win if you build correctly and play on the VC weakness, which is (hopefully) not bringing enough anti large to kill Gorbull, your minitaurs/Spawn, and using your cheap spears to delay Bloodknights. BM magic is also very good against VC since devolve was made viable again, and lore of death is still very good against VC to force crumbling. Lore of Shadows being added to BM is also very nice against VC.

    And we already covered Chaos.

    Boohoo. When those three factions fight VC they have to be careful. That's the point.
    GS is weak to VC. I'm curious how you can feel 'pretty easy' when you dealing with mortis engine. Cause I've never heard of that from any players.. Of course players tried to use archer spam vs VC, cause it counter both crypt horror and mortis, but VC is still one ofthe strongest because it's not work. Raise dead make archer spamming 'useless'. haven't you any problem with that? really?
    Dunno man. I just bring rusty arrers and two other NG archers and keep them hidden until the infantry battle happens. I'm not the best at the game, or "good" at all. But that's what I've done, and it seems to work for me. If you keep some NG archers hidden, and if the VC player isn't paying super close attention to your army comp, you can surprise him and at the very least weaken his Mortis Engine while his heroes and Lord are busy, because he can't afford to have them out of the fights or saving magic for very long.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 646Registered Users
    salsicha said:

    Zergles said:

    salsicha said:

    It's a Chaos, Greenskins, and Beastmen issue. All three of them basically have to throw everything at killing one unit, and by the time it dies they have lost the rest of the fight.

    It's supposed to be an issue for them. That is the only defense VC has against the three factions that would tear them a new one due to all the high damage, high speed, units. GS (my second most played faction after Beastmen) have a pretty easy time dealing with Mortis Engines, in my experience because they can have tons of archers. The healing and stuff is the least of GS's worries. Fear/Terror is what usually makes them lose. Not being able to stay in combat long enough to actually finish the job. And they have that exact same problem against other armies. Chaos, Beastmen, and Wood Elf terror armies (to me) are worse than dealing with VC healing themselves. I very rarely lose to VC as GS.

    Beastmen don't have to "throw everything" into it either. Beastmen have a bad time in a lot of matchups. VC is one of the worst, sure. But you can win if you build correctly and play on the VC weakness, which is (hopefully) not bringing enough anti large to kill Gorbull, your minitaurs/Spawn, and using your cheap spears to delay Bloodknights. BM magic is also very good against VC since devolve was made viable again, and lore of death is still very good against VC to force crumbling. Lore of Shadows being added to BM is also very nice against VC.

    And we already covered Chaos.

    Boohoo. When those three factions fight VC they have to be careful. That's the point.
    I had no idea you were so good, wow you must win all the tournaments.


    No. I just play GS and Beastmen and end up against VC a lot. It isn't impossible to win. The reason being...i'm NOT in a tournament or playing against Ninjahund. And neither are 90% of players.
  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 2,033Registered Users
    And if you did play in a tournament you would never win that matchup, against Ninjahund or anyone else who plays in them. Who cares if you can beat a noob in multiplayer? Is that really an argument that the factions are balanced?
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 646Registered Users
    salsicha said:

    And if you did play in a tournament you would never win that matchup, against Ninjahund or anyone else who plays in them. Who cares if you can beat a noob in multiplayer? Is that really an argument that the factions are balanced?

    Any faction can currently beat any other faction. That IS balance. Just becauee it is challenging doesn't make it something to cry over. Every faction has strengths and weaknesses. Just because VC is strong against three factions who share the same, or clost to the same weaknesses doesn't make it imbalanced or crappy. I agreed that WE vs. Dwarfs IS crappy because the gameplay is crap. But having close battles that are tough, but fun is another story.

    I also wouldn't say playing in the slightly above average range counts as me beating noobs. I consitently beat average, to a little above players. I simply don't lose a few games and start complaining. I keep playing and have fun. I would lose a tournament ( I have.) But I'd have fun. And I'd win a few matches.
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 570Registered Users
    edited March 20
    Zergles said:

    salsicha said:

    And if you did play in a tournament you would never win that matchup, against Ninjahund or anyone else who plays in them. Who cares if you can beat a noob in multiplayer? Is that really an argument that the factions are balanced?

    Any faction can currently beat any other faction. That IS balance. Just becauee it is challenging doesn't make it something to cry over. Every faction has strengths and weaknesses. Just because VC is strong against three factions who share the same, or clost to the same weaknesses doesn't make it imbalanced or crappy. I agreed that WE vs. Dwarfs IS crappy because the gameplay is crap. But having close battles that are tough, but fun is another story.

    I also wouldn't say playing in the slightly above average range counts as me beating noobs. I consitently beat average, to a little above players. I simply don't lose a few games and start complaining. I keep playing and have fun. I would lose a tournament ( I have.) But I'd have fun. And I'd win a few matches.
    Yeah but the fact that it's more challenging for a faction than another is the contrary of balance.
    It's like saying : any woman can have a salary, so the salary of men and women are balanced.
    However, guys, think about it : do we really want a pure boring balance ? Aren't the meta and the strengths/weaknesses of the factions enjoyable things ? Of course it's how I personally enjoy the game and you guys might enjoy more pure symmetrical balance (which, funnily enough, CA tries to avoid).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 646Registered Users

    Zergles said:

    salsicha said:

    And if you did play in a tournament you would never win that matchup, against Ninjahund or anyone else who plays in them. Who cares if you can beat a noob in multiplayer? Is that really an argument that the factions are balanced?

    Any faction can currently beat any other faction. That IS balance. Just becauee it is challenging doesn't make it something to cry over. Every faction has strengths and weaknesses. Just because VC is strong against three factions who share the same, or clost to the same weaknesses doesn't make it imbalanced or crappy. I agreed that WE vs. Dwarfs IS crappy because the gameplay is crap. But having close battles that are tough, but fun is another story.

    I also wouldn't say playing in the slightly above average range counts as me beating noobs. I consitently beat average, to a little above players. I simply don't lose a few games and start complaining. I keep playing and have fun. I would lose a tournament ( I have.) But I'd have fun. And I'd win a few matches.
    Yeah but the fact that it's more challenging for a faction than another is the contrary of balance.
    It's like saying : any woman can have a salary, so the salary of men and women are balanced.
    However, guys, think about it : do we really want a pure boring balance ? Aren't the meta and the strengths/weaknesses of the factions enjoyable things ? Of course it's how I personally enjoy the game and you guys might enjoy more pure symmetrical balance (which, funnily enough, CA tries to avoid).


    But every faction has a matchup that is annoying or even outright hard. There is that one build, that your opponent can do that you know will mess you up. VC in this case does more or less the exact same build with minor variations against everyone. For GS, BM, and Chaos, that build happens to be their weakness. Remember pre-Grim and Grave? Before the Mortis Engine and stuff, VC had almost a completely different playstyle which Chaos and GS took giant dumps on. And the super scary OP matchup, was Empire with Greatswords and Demis.

    But as you say, I do personally enjoy the "Oh ****" factor when playing my favorite factions. Having tough match-ups is what I love about and it pushed me, and I assume others to learn multiple playstyles and factions.

  • CrimsonflareCrimsonflare Posts: 76Registered Users
    Its asymmetrical balance. There are going to be tough matchup. Except empire because they're so flexible. The only really really bad one is WE vs dwarves. That sucks for both players be the most for WE. There's a reason people switch to dwarves when someone picks WE.
  • MrMecHMrMecH Posts: 474Registered Users
    Beastmen vs Vampire. You can't do anything with them. Their main infantry can block you completely with healing machine and their magic. Your all flank will be killed by Blood Knight. Minotaur (GW) can fight them but they can run away easily with higher speed. Gorebull can't chase their flying lord and always stuck with the zombie spam. At last your infantry routing first and then you lose patheticly.