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Dark Elves Lore, Army, Units, and Tactics

IndyprideIndypride Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 1,686
edited March 2017 in General Discussion


WALL OF TEXT TRIGGER WARNING

This time we’re covering the Dark Elves of Naggaroth, a war-like and sadistic people known for their penchant for torture, and for their bitter, millennia long civil war with the High Elves of Ulthuan. So the Dark Elves, or the Druchii as they are known in their native dialect, are the outcast children of Ulthuan, an arrogant, scheming, and ruthlessly intelligent race of Elves. They watch the world with malevolent eyes, believing the world is their birthright, and the other races that inhabit it merely their playthings. They are the Dark, sinister cousins, the 2nd half of a race split by a brutal war long ago, separated by the greatest betrayal in the history of Warhammer. While the High Elves live, their will be no peace and no rest… not until their temples have fallen, their streets run red with torrents of blood, and their people driven into the sea. And as you will quickly come to realize, they are a very edgy, very angsty culture that holds a grudge almost as well as the Dawi themselves.

Their entire culture is based on Slaves, Sex, Sacking, Sacrifice, Scheming, and a healthy dose of utterly brutal torture that would make Hannibal Lecter squeamish. Politics and family life are characterized by frequent assassinations, fratricide, and an utter disregard for human standards of morality. But at this point that shouldn’t really come as a surprise to you, that’s par for the course in the wonderful world of Warhammer.

As is common with all 3 races of Elves, the Druchii are blindingly fast and agile, putting to shame even the most elegant and graceful of the other races that inhabit the world, but they can also be somewhat fragile. This means that Dark Elf generals cant brute force engagements with their armies in the same manner that a Chaos Lord or Ogre Tyrant would, and instead rely on complex tactics and strategy. And As a result, Druchii commanders are considered among the finest in the world, with a wide array of deadly tools to choose from, from the elite shock cavalry of the Cold One Knights, armored elves riding gigantic raptors into battle, to the unarmored but wicked Warrior priestesses of the Cult of Khaine, to the monstrous Kharibdyss and famed Hydras of Naggaroth.

My ideas for their race mechanics are relatively straightforward and straight from the lore, so lets go over those first.

GAMEPLAY MECHANICS:

Black Arks, Death Night, treachery, and slavery are all very important components of the Dark Elves, so I think these should form the bulk of the unique Dark Elf campaign mechanics as well.

CIVIL WAR AND POLITICS - War between the 6 major cities and even some of the Black Arks is very common, in fact often times Malekith encourages it so that the weak perish and the strong survive, so I was trying to come up with some kind of rebellion or civil war mechanic that would actually be fun, but that’s kind of the problem right? Having provinces rebel just because a Dark Elf general is disloyal or something isn’t very fun, and some people think that Realm Divide in Shogun 2 and Civil War in Rome 2 are kind of contrived mechanics and not very enjoyable. But that’s not everybody, there are plenty of people who really enjoy both of those, because they at least stop the steamroll and provide a mid or late game challenge, and provide you with something to think about outside pure expansion. So there are a couple late game options for the Dark Elves to provide some challenge. I think a Politics and Civil War mechanic like in Rome 2 Emperor edition could work, and would be very logical with the Dark Elves. So you want Malekith with say.. 75% of the political power, but you also need to make sure that the individual cities and the ruling nobles have enough that they don’t feel like theyre being cut out, but not enough power to directly challenge Malekith. And if this balance of power shifts enough in one of the cities favor, then a Civil War begins in which ever city has gained the most traction, triggering some Dark Elf armies to spawn and taking the region with them. This fits the lore perfectly, as it is definitely somewhat common for Dreadlords to challenge Malekiths power, either in secret or in an outright show of force, and its already a mechanic that’s been in CA games before. But if theyre gona add it to the Dark Elves campaign, they HAVE to also add it for the Empire and the Elector Counts as well, that could make their campaign so much more interesting in my opinion.

THE THREAT OF CHAOS - In terms of a true late game challenge, absolutely there should be Warriors and Demons of Chaos armies attacking from the Chaos Wastes to the North of Naggaroth. The Dark Elves are literally on the front line against the Ruinous Powers, which a lot of people don’t think about, because Archaon and Kholek and all the famous invasions come from Norsca. But the Chaos Wastes are huge, and they literally start right there to the north of Naggaroth, so that will definitely be a problem. The Hung and other Northern tribes are a consistent issue for the Druchii. The question is, will the Demons of Chaos be in the game when the Dark Elves launch? I personally think they wont be. I think the Skaven will be the 4th starting race, in which case we wont be seeing Demonic invasions until the 3rd game. IF the Demons of Chaos are a base faction in game 2, then Slaaneshi or Khorne invasions will absolutely keep you on your toes once the late game rolls around. There’s no Kislev buffer state for you, once they spawn, your cities will almost immediately be under assault, which is actually pretty cool. Might be a nice challenge. I personally cant wait to see a Valkia the Bloody led Chaos invasion of Naggaroth, thatll be incredible.

SLAVE ECONOMY - In terms of your economy, slavery is EVERYTHING, but its difficult to make sacrifices to Khaine when slaves are building your empire. So Naval Raiding stance should automatically gather slaves when near the coast line of enemy provinces, and gathering these slaves should give big bonuses to your rate of building and the money you get out of your cities. There could be a Cult of Khaine mechanic, where you gain Favor with the Cult through executing captives after a battle, which in turn gives you better Witch Elves and Khainite units, strengthening your people when sacrifice is high enough to sate the Lord of Murder, but remember that you gain economic and building bonuses by enslaving them post battle and sending them back to Karond Kar. So This would encourage you to keep raiding, fighting, and expanding, because with a shortage of slaves and sacrifice, people are going to get unhappy. So you’d have a choice to make there, do I want to buff my economy, or do I want to improve public order and please the Cult of Khaine. Now making sacrifices to Khaine would also play a huge role in Death Night, which would function similarly to the Morsliebb Events. You get HUGE bonuses on Death Night, as long as you have a lot of captured slaves. Your armies get replenishment buffs as soldiers filled with blood lust fill your ranks, and your Witch Elves and Khainite recruits get tons of experience, but if you DON’T have enough slaves when Death Night rolls around every 10-15 turns or whatever, your armies will take attrition and you wont get the buffs, demonstrating the Cult of Khaines displeasure with you, and the fact that the Witch Elves are still going to reap souls that night. If there aren’t any slaves to kill, they’ll kill your soldiers instead.

BLACK ARKS - And finally, the Black Arks are mobile bases, floating fortresses that can sail the seas and provide you with raiding parties and naval power abroad. These Arks should be able to garrison navies and armies, replenishing them, and serving as a mobile invasion platform, anywhere in the world that has a coastline. Remember that they are essentially cities, so it would be awesome if you could recruit some naval themed troops there, like Black Ark Corsairs, the Kharibdyss, and maybe some basic stuff like Dreadspears and Bleakswords as well. This has the potential to be the most unique gameplay mechanic yet, one in which you can literally make armies on the fly, anywhere in the world. Want to siege Barak Varr, the Dwarf port? Send a Black Ark, build an army on the open sea, and raze it to the ground. That would be so much fun. I do expect Black Arks to be battle maps, and although I’m not quite as excited to fight on those as I am to fight in a Lizardmen temple city, there is no question, fighting a huge battle on top of a Black Ark will be a truly unique and memorable experience. Again I don’t think it will be a Naval battle per se though, I think it would basically be the equivalent of siege battle. Black Arks are so big, they would take up most of a naval map anyway.

I think if some or most of those ideas get implemented, it will be a very unique and fun campaign experience that accurately reflects the lore, but let me know what you guys think? Can you think of any other ideas that might be fun to implement in the Dark Elves campaign?
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Comments

  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,512
    I can't wait to reunify Ulthuan to Malekith's will, the true Phoenix King.
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Registered Users Posts: 1,487
    edited March 2017
    Good stuff.

    I think the emphasis on politics, backstabbing, and scheming should go to the skaven, along with a loyalty system. But if other races get these features too that would be great. They would most likely have slight variations.

    In my opinion black arks should be recruitable from a coastal settlement, and their mechanic should be ideally like the horde mechanic(I'm talking technical) . They should move around the sea not as a fleet, but as a moving settlement. That way this allows for recruiting fleets and monsters from black arks, and sieging it, and making Black Ark battle maps. Might be a ideal way of doing Black Arks from a technical standpoint. .
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    Just gonna say that you make the best Faction lore videos, with maybe the exception of Prophet of Sotek... he only did one though :(

    Trust me, I watched ALOT of those and you do a better job than a lot of veteran TT players. I guess that you are aware that you have ground to pick up compared to them and take extra care when doing them.

    Cant wait to watch this one bra
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
    Clan Moulder #masterclan
  • IzzyStradlinIzzyStradlin Senior Member Karaz BrynRegistered Users Posts: 11,275
    Remember kids, the Cult of Slaanesh was retconned! Morathi is not a Slaanesh cultist. :D
    "Raise them, Necromancer. Set brother against brother. Let's give our hosts something worthy of recording in their pathetic book of complaints, shall we?"
    The Queen of Mysteries, on the Book of Grudges.

    Her voice was as rustling silk. "In the darkness I dreamt of you, cousin."
    "Hawk no longer. My wings are dust and bone. I crawl through time now, like an asp."
    "You took my wings, Neferata. You made me crawl. Now I return the favour. Crawl, cousin. Crawl."

    Team Elize von Carstein


    Warhammer Lore, by Sotek!

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH4nPsl2ctS365aEfFBwxbg

    For ease of memory, if we're not talking about cavalry, everything the High Elves have is better than everything the Dark Elves have.

    Izzy's More-Loreful Stats Mod

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1279441247&searchtext=
  • VypeVype Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 30

    They should move around the sea not as a fleet, but as a moving settlement. That way this allows for recruiting fleets and monsters from black arks, and sieging it, and making Black Ark battle maps. Might be a ideal way of doing Black Arks from a technical standpoint. .

    I was thinking along these lines myself whilst watching the video earlier. I thought it might be neat if each province had just the main capital, and then have a Black Ark as a minor settlement instead. You would be able to sail this into a sea area, where it would gather slaves/loot from the coastal areas of whichever sea region you were in (in the same way that normal settlements passively gather and add revenue already).

    As it would behave as a minor settlement, you would then be able to build different structures in it - to maximise income, train/recruit troops, etc - and operate as a base for your land armies to launch attacks from.
  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,686

    Good stuff.

    I think the emphasis on politics, backstabbing, and scheming should go to the skaven, along with a loyalty system. But if other races get these features too that would be great. They would most likely have slight variations.

    In my opinion black arks should be recruitable from a coastal settlement, and their mechanic should be ideally like the horde mechanic(I'm talking technical) . They should move around the sea not as a fleet, but as a moving settlement. That way this allows for recruiting fleets and monsters from black arks, and sieging it, and making Black Ark battle maps. Might be a ideal way of doing Black Arks from a technical standpoint. .

    Yeah I think Black Arks as a moving settlement with limited recruitment of land units (Corsairs, Kharibdyss, maybe basic troops) and full Naval Recruitment/replenishment/port garrison is the way to go. I wonder if CA will be able to pull it off. I really hope so, it would be such a cool mechanic
  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,433
    Can't wait for people to cry about a really fast Crossbow-Cavalry that has Shields.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,798
    edited March 2017
    @Indypride Stupid units are already in the game from the TT since you were asking.

    Trolls and Giants for the Greenskins were stupid (from memory) and has essentially been ignored along with battle-map animosity in general, which is very similar. Stupidity has possibly been accounted for in the **** poor leadership of these units?

    Basically having your units arbitrarily not move in a real time battles based on a % chance might be funny the first time, but you'll see units like that absolutely ignored in both campaign and multiplayer.


    And yes Black Guard were absolutely one of the most feared infantry units on TT. With their only weakness being how vulnerable they were to ranged attacks. I've seen a unit of black guard be hit in the front by Ghouls (who in TT were amazingly unlike the garbage they are in this game), and flanked by grave guard and black knights from either side and proceed to utterly demolish all 3 units and almost single handedly win that match.

    In my opinion black arks should be recruitable from a coastal settlement, and their mechanic should be ideally like the horde mechanic(I'm talking technical) . They should move around the sea not as a fleet, but as a moving settlement. That way this allows for recruiting fleets and monsters from black arks, and sieging it, and making Black Ark battle maps. Might be a ideal way of doing Black Arks from a technical standpoint. .

    And I agree with this guy. ^

    Also about the internal politicking. I'd be hesitant to add too many civil war style mechanics to DE when their amount of civil strife from my (far from all knowing) knowledge of the lore isn't that dis-similar to The Empire. I feel genuine civil war mechanics would be better suited to the Skaven. Although there is no reason both factions can't have the same mechanics. *cough underway cough* But in this case I feel distinguishing them would be necessary.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,059

    Also about the internal politicking. I'd be hesitant to add too many civil war style mechanics to DE when their amount of civil strife from my (far from all knowing) knowledge of the lore isn't that dis-similar to The Empire. I feel genuine civil war mechanics would be better suited to the Skaven. Although there is no reason both factions can't have the same mechanics. *cough underway cough* But in this case I feel distinguishing them would be necessary.

    One distinguishing factor is that unlike the Skaven, the Dark Elves have a clear dictator. There's a lot of politicking for the Witch King's favour and to rise in the hierarchy beneath the Witch King, but it's extremely rare for anyone to contest Malekith's right to rule.

    The Skaven, meanwhile, are ruled by a council of twelve (unless the Horned Rat makes an appearance) which scheme constantly against one another and have no clear head.

  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,433
    Wouldn't dark elves rather have slave revolts?
    Like if they lose control of a settlement, they have a rebellion-army that consists of a wide variety of different non-hightech units such as Lizardmen, Greenskins, Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Goblins as well as beasts of war (Warhounds, Cold Ones etc.)

    As for the Black Arks themselves....they could be the main source of income.
    While the settlements are used for technological advancements and unit training, the black arks could only train a limited amount of units and would rely on global recruitment for more advanced units.
  • wingren013wingren013 Registered Users Posts: 1,006
    edited March 2017
    Uh elves aren't devoured by Slaanesh. He highly prizes their souls due to their long lives and extreme emotions. She tries to claim souls before the elven gods do but its not something that most elves worry about (although some of the more paranoid ones make pacts with Ereth Khial to prevent it).

    Asuryan claims the souls of elven nobles (all those descended from those who marched with Aenarion) while Ereth Khial claims the souls of commoners.
  • VypeVype Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 30
    I'd like to see them bring back the mechanic they have used for elephants for cold ones - if they drop below a certain morale threshold, then they go beserk and run amok. This would simulate them sensing the panic of their riders (as morale drops), to the point where they lose their discipline and control over their mounts.
  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,686

    Uh elves aren't devoured by Slaanesh. He highly prizes their souls due to their long lives and extreme emotions. She tries to claim souls before the elven gods do but its not something that most elves worry about (although some of the more paranoid ones make pacts with Ereth Khial to prevent it).

    Asuryan claims the souls of elven nobles (all those descended from those who marched with Aenarion) while Ereth Khial claims the souls of commoners.

    Page 26, Dark Elves 8th edition armybook. "Fate of the Spirit: The Elves are cursed to have their souls devoured by Slaanesh when their mortal bodies perish." And then a whole bunch more explanation afterwards. What you're saying isnt any different than devouring, it doesnt matter if Slaanesh poops on them, does jumping jacks with them, or parties like its 1999 with them. The cause and effect are the same, he takes their souls and they are damned to eternal torment. But the armybook literally says Devour, which is why I said devour.

    And the Elves most certainly do worry about a literal eternity of torment, how could they not lol. Why do you think the High Elves made waystones to seal their spirits inside? Why do you think Wood Elves seal their souls within elemental tree spirits? Why do you think Doomfire Warlocks sacrifice others in their place, to further delay the curse that would allow Slaanesh to take their souls? Because they dont feel like getting merked by Slaanesh. These arent a few paranoid individuals worrying about it, its literally all 3 races that actively think about avoiding Slaanesh in any way possible.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,059
    Vype said:

    I'd like to see them bring back the mechanic they have used for elephants for cold ones - if they drop below a certain morale threshold, then they go beserk and run amok. This would simulate them sensing the panic of their riders (as morale drops), to the point where they lose their discipline and control over their mounts.

    Another possibility is to bring back a really old rule for Cold Ones, whereby they lose their Stupidity after fighting a round of combat (once they've tasted blood, they're thirsty for more). So they could have a movement penalty until the first time they engage, but once they do they're at full speed for the rest of the battle.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,798
    Draxynnic said:

    Vype said:

    I'd like to see them bring back the mechanic they have used for elephants for cold ones - if they drop below a certain morale threshold, then they go beserk and run amok. This would simulate them sensing the panic of their riders (as morale drops), to the point where they lose their discipline and control over their mounts.

    Another possibility is to bring back a really old rule for Cold Ones, whereby they lose their Stupidity after fighting a round of combat (once they've tasted blood, they're thirsty for more). So they could have a movement penalty until the first time they engage, but once they do they're at full speed for the rest of the battle.
    Could be translated as recovering Vigor while in combat rather than losing it?
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,059

    Draxynnic said:

    Vype said:

    I'd like to see them bring back the mechanic they have used for elephants for cold ones - if they drop below a certain morale threshold, then they go beserk and run amok. This would simulate them sensing the panic of their riders (as morale drops), to the point where they lose their discipline and control over their mounts.

    Another possibility is to bring back a really old rule for Cold Ones, whereby they lose their Stupidity after fighting a round of combat (once they've tasted blood, they're thirsty for more). So they could have a movement penalty until the first time they engage, but once they do they're at full speed for the rest of the battle.
    Could be translated as recovering Vigor while in combat rather than losing it?
    That would also work!
  • OrontesOrontes Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 468
    edited March 2017
    Indypride said:


    CIVIL WAR AND POLITICS - War between the 6 major cities and even some of the Black Arks is very common, in fact often times Malekith encourages it so that the weak perish and the strong survive, so I was trying to come up with some kind of rebellion or civil war mechanic that would actually be fun, but that’s kind of the problem right? Having provinces rebel just because a Dark Elf general is disloyal or something isn’t very fun, and some people think that Realm Divide in Shogun 2 and Civil War in Rome 2 are kind of contrived mechanics and not very enjoyable. But that’s not everybody, there are plenty of people who really enjoy both of those, because they at least stop the steamroll and provide a mid or late game challenge, and provide you with something to think about outside pure expansion. So there are a couple late game options for the Dark Elves to provide some challenge. I think a Politics and Civil War mechanic like in Rome 2 Emperor edition could work, and would be very logical with the Dark Elves. So you want Malekith with say.. 75% of the political power, but you also need to make sure that the individual cities and the ruling nobles have enough that they don’t feel like theyre being cut out, but not enough power to directly challenge Malekith. And if this balance of power shifts enough in one of the cities favor, then a Civil War begins in which ever city has gained the most traction, triggering some Dark Elf armies to spawn and taking the region with them. This fits the lore perfectly, as it is definitely somewhat common for Dreadlords to challenge Malekiths power, either in secret or in an outright show of force, and its already a mechanic that’s been in CA games before. But if theyre gona add it to the Dark Elves campaign, they HAVE to also add it for the Empire and the Elector Counts as well, that could make their campaign so much more interesting in my opinion.


    Per Dark Elf politics in the lore: are there any Elf Cities or Houses that challenge the Witch King openly and directly for power?
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    edited March 2017
    Orontes said:

    Indypride said:


    CIVIL WAR AND POLITICS - War between the 6 major cities and even some of the Black Arks is very common, in fact often times Malekith encourages it so that the weak perish and the strong survive, so I was trying to come up with some kind of rebellion or civil war mechanic that would actually be fun, but that’s kind of the problem right? Having provinces rebel just because a Dark Elf general is disloyal or something isn’t very fun, and some people think that Realm Divide in Shogun 2 and Civil War in Rome 2 are kind of contrived mechanics and not very enjoyable. But that’s not everybody, there are plenty of people who really enjoy both of those, because they at least stop the steamroll and provide a mid or late game challenge, and provide you with something to think about outside pure expansion. So there are a couple late game options for the Dark Elves to provide some challenge. I think a Politics and Civil War mechanic like in Rome 2 Emperor edition could work, and would be very logical with the Dark Elves. So you want Malekith with say.. 75% of the political power, but you also need to make sure that the individual cities and the ruling nobles have enough that they don’t feel like theyre being cut out, but not enough power to directly challenge Malekith. And if this balance of power shifts enough in one of the cities favor, then a Civil War begins in which ever city has gained the most traction, triggering some Dark Elf armies to spawn and taking the region with them. This fits the lore perfectly, as it is definitely somewhat common for Dreadlords to challenge Malekiths power, either in secret or in an outright show of force, and its already a mechanic that’s been in CA games before. But if theyre gona add it to the Dark Elves campaign, they HAVE to also add it for the Empire and the Elector Counts as well, that could make their campaign so much more interesting in my opinion.


    Per Dark Elf politics in the lore: are there any Elf Cities or Houses that challenge the Witch King openly and directly for power?
    Short answer : Never for long.

    Long answer : Malekith is particularly warry of the power of Hag Graef. It's the second largest, militarised and weathliest city in Naggaroth close to Naggarond itself. It was originally founded by nobles dissident to his rule but it's ruled by several families vying for power and Malekith helps them keep at each other's throat, not that they really need him.
    Morathi in Ghrond supports him for the most part but even then can't be trusted.
    Hellebron in Har Ganeth is too preoccupied by her rivalry with Morathi which conveniently keeps her busy.
    Clar Karond and Karond Kar don't really have the power to contest Malekith and moreover prosper mainly on various trades with the other cities, they would lose the most profit from a civil war.

    It's also important to realise that Malekith has the monopoly of magical might in Naggaroth through Morathi and her Convents of Sorceresses (who are all his concubines btw). When you know he blasted an entire rebellious fortress overnight with his own magic alone it takes all of it's importance.

    Basically you can assume more or less every dreadlord is secretly dreaming of deposing Malekith but none of them can gather the support and power to do it and obviously they all want the throne for themselves not for another usurper.
    Post edited by Dalakh on
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • IgorrozasIgorrozas Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited March 2017
    If the black arcs act like cities, being able to make money and recruit armies on their own, they should be limited.
    What if you can only make one "razing" a settlement? A capital of a province (obviously on the coast)?

    This will allow some interesting tactics. You could try to conquer an undefended high elf capital and turn It into a black arc before the high elf army come to retake It.

    What do you think?
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,512
    edited March 2017
    There are constant conflicts between the DE society, and Malekith, far from stop them, promotes them, for he hates the actual race and society which Dark Elves have become, and because he wants to make survive the strongest only, so they can fuel his armies in the next wars. But there are never rebels against Malekith, and when it happens, it uses to be Cults and groups led by Morathi (in the shadows) to feed her son's hatred, and to make him move and awake from the inactivity of Naggaroth. Those "rebellions" never go too far, as you can imagine.
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    Igorrozas said:

    If the black arcs act like cities, being able to make money and recruit armies on their own, they should be limited.
    What if you can only make one "razing" a settlement? A capital of a province (obviously on the coast)?

    This will allow some interesting tactics. You could try to conquer an undefended high elf capital and turn It into a black arc before the high elf army come to retake It.

    What do you think?

    The Black Arks were created during the Sundering. It's impossible to make more basically but it's relatively common to land them to recreate the core of a city. For instance Naggarond's core is composed of beached Black Arks to form the embryo and heart of the future city.
    Many times the dark elves have beached Black Arks in Anlec, their original capital in Ulthuan to resettle the ruins and once again be the embryo of the new city. They only do it if they intend to stay there forever though.

    Personally I think Black Arks should not be able to provide you any income on their own with just buildings, maybe even have an (high) upkeep. But being able to recruit vessels and navy/raiding themed troops like Corsairs, Dark riders, reaper bolt throwers and shades would be very nice indeed.
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    If Black Arks are mobile cities and not naval units, how do you sink them?
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    az88 said:

    If Black Arks are mobile cities and not naval units, how do you sink them?

    Autoresolve the garrison and garrisoned army most likely if no naval battles.
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    edited March 2017
    Dalakh said:

    az88 said:

    If Black Arks are mobile cities and not naval units, how do you sink them?

    Autoresolve the garrison and garrisoned army most likely if no naval battles.
    That'd be awful. You might as well just have a spreadsheet and assign them to gather resources if your only way to kill them is with autoresolve.
    Post edited by az88 on
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,059
    Dalakh said:


    Basically you can assume more or less every dreadlord is secretly dreaming of deposing Malekith but none of them can gather the support and power to do it and obviously they all want the throne for themselves not for another usurper.

    I think there is some genuine loyalty to Malekith. His supposed claim to the Phoenix Throne is the driving justification behind the war with the High Elves, after all.

    That said, there are probably Dreadlords who'd be happy to abandon the war in favour of simply enriching themselves, and deposing Malekith would be a necessary step to be able to do that.

  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,686
    edited March 2017
    Dalakh said:

    az88 said:

    If Black Arks are mobile cities and not naval units, how do you sink them?

    Autoresolve the garrison and garrisoned army most likely if no naval battles.
    I think they would be siege maps, even with naval battles in the game, because I'm not sure CA could a full size Black Ark onto a naval map and have it work with all the other naval units that are many, many times smaller. I dont see why CA would have to make Black Ark battles autoresolve. Sure you might have to suspend disbelief a bit that an entire army was able to board a Black Ark, but I think we're already doing that when playing Warhammer games lol. Having the Black Ark be a playable siege map could totally work
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    edited March 2017
    Indypride said:

    Dalakh said:

    az88 said:

    If Black Arks are mobile cities and not naval units, how do you sink them?

    Autoresolve the garrison and garrisoned army most likely if no naval battles.
    I think they would be siege maps, even with naval battles in the game, because I'm not sure CA could a full size Black Ark onto a naval map and have it work with all the other naval units that are many, many times smaller. I dont see why CA would have to make Black Ark battles autoresolve. Sure you might have to suspend disbelief a bit that an entire army was able to board a Black Ark, but I think we're already doing that when playing Warhammer games lol. Having the Black Ark be a playable siege map could totally work
    And where would the attacker come from ? Black Arks' walls fall pretty much straight into the sea or into a little bit of leftover rockbed and I'm confident saying that having to model immobile ships for each faction to attack from is not something CA would do without naval battles otherwise for a multitude of reasons.

    If real naval battles are in though it's not too much of an issue.
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • BiesBies Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,285
    Indypride said:

    Dalakh said:

    az88 said:

    If Black Arks are mobile cities and not naval units, how do you sink them?

    Autoresolve the garrison and garrisoned army most likely if no naval battles.
    I think they would be siege maps, even with naval battles in the game, because I'm not sure CA could a full size Black Ark onto a naval map and have it work with all the other naval units that are many, many times smaller. I dont see why CA would have to make Black Ark battles autoresolve. Sure you might have to suspend disbelief a bit that an entire army was able to board a Black Ark, but I think we're already doing that when playing Warhammer games lol. Having the Black Ark be a playable siege map could totally work
    Still the black ark isnt so huge if they use same model


    "I shivered at the sight of her - her beauty far beyond that of mortal man. But her soul glowed with an inner darkness that chilled my very core."









  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,686
    edited March 2017
    Dalakh said:

    Indypride said:

    Dalakh said:

    az88 said:

    If Black Arks are mobile cities and not naval units, how do you sink them?

    Autoresolve the garrison and garrisoned army most likely if no naval battles.
    I think they would be siege maps, even with naval battles in the game, because I'm not sure CA could a full size Black Ark onto a naval map and have it work with all the other naval units that are many, many times smaller. I dont see why CA would have to make Black Ark battles autoresolve. Sure you might have to suspend disbelief a bit that an entire army was able to board a Black Ark, but I think we're already doing that when playing Warhammer games lol. Having the Black Ark be a playable siege map could totally work
    And where would the attacker come from ? Black Arks' walls fall pretty much straight into the sea or into a little bit of leftover rockbed and I'm confident saying that having to model immobile ships for each faction to attack from is not something CA would do without naval battles otherwise for a multitude of reasons.

    If real naval battles are in though it's not too much of an issue.
    Have a big ramp leading up from the docks, just outside the playable map, with a big ironwrought gate thats broken or something. Then have a deployment zone like we currently have in sieges (or a new deployment zone type if sieges are revamped in game 2) and then walls and the "citadel" part of the Black Ark that we are attacking. CA wouldnt have to model any attacker ships, the whole map would be the deployment zone/open streets outside the citadel, and the walls and citadel itself. So basically its just a regular siege battle on top of a Black Ark.

    Is it incredibly logical that an entire army would be able to board a Black Ark? Not really. But attacking gigantic citadels isnt very logical either and we've had those in TW since Medieval 2. I think being able to fight on top of a Black Ark is a much more fun solution than pure autoresolve. And considering its a standalone game, I expect CA to be putting in plenty of effort on new assets and maps. I dont know if CA will do it, I just think its completely possible, even without going too far outside the box of what we already have in game
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    Indypride said:

    Dalakh said:

    Indypride said:

    Dalakh said:

    az88 said:

    If Black Arks are mobile cities and not naval units, how do you sink them?

    Autoresolve the garrison and garrisoned army most likely if no naval battles.
    I think they would be siege maps, even with naval battles in the game, because I'm not sure CA could a full size Black Ark onto a naval map and have it work with all the other naval units that are many, many times smaller. I dont see why CA would have to make Black Ark battles autoresolve. Sure you might have to suspend disbelief a bit that an entire army was able to board a Black Ark, but I think we're already doing that when playing Warhammer games lol. Having the Black Ark be a playable siege map could totally work
    And where would the attacker come from ? Black Arks' walls fall pretty much straight into the sea or into a little bit of leftover rockbed and I'm confident saying that having to model immobile ships for each faction to attack from is not something CA would do without naval battles otherwise for a multitude of reasons.

    If real naval battles are in though it's not too much of an issue.
    Have a big ramp leading up from the docks, just outside the playable map, with a big ironwrought gate thats broken or something. Then have a deployment zone like we currently have in sieges (or a new deployment zone type if sieges are revamped in game 2) and then walls and the "citadel" part of the Black Ark that we are attacking. CA wouldnt have to model any attacker ships, the whole map would be the deployment zone/open streets outside the citadel, and the walls and citadel itself. So basically its just a regular siege battle on top of a Black Ark.

    Is it incredibly logical that an entire army would be able to board a Black Ark? Not really. But attacking gigantic citadels isnt very logical either and we've had those in TW since Medieval 2. I think being able to fight on top of a Black Ark is a much more fun solution than pure autoresolve. And considering its a standalone game, I expect CA to be putting in plenty of effort on new assets and maps. I dont know if CA will do it, I just think its completely possible, even without going too far outside the box of what we already have in game
    Hold on, hold on I don't think we are talking about the same thing. To clarify I'm talking about how the attack of a Black Ark would work in the middle of the ocean.
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
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