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Letter to CA from the Community

SteelFaithSteelFaith Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 1,000
edited April 2017 in General Discussion
Dear Creative Assembly,

To begin, I, and thousands of others in the community, would like to sincerely thank you for your tremendous talent and vision in making Total War: Warhammer, it is the THE most beautifully realized portrayal of Warhammer ever - that's an incredible achievement and you all deserve much recognition for it for years to come; finally the Warhammer world has come to life in an incredible way! We love the CA team, and we know we can be pretty intense at times, but that is due to how much passion we have for the Total War and Warhammer franchises.

Thousands of us have already played hundreds of hours of the game, and hope to play many hundreds, if not thousands of hours more for years to come. Which leads into the main point I am writing this to you on the behalf of the community, is that we desperately want Total War: Warhammer to be the very best it possibly can be.

Based on my own extensive experience playing and modding the game, and from the feedback of many of my subscribers, fellow modders, and fans within the TWW community; I've compiled a list of constructive feedback, which I hope you will take into consideration, to help improve the game in the future. We feel these following issues need to be addressed, as they are detracting from the overall experience, and long-term enjoyment of the game.


AI Unit Recruitment Behavior:


- Give the AI the ability to disband units, so it can make room for better quality units in their armies, and have a more well rounded and effective army to use.

- The AI does not utilize a large portion of the available units, mounts, and legendary mounts in this game currently. Outside of scripted battles, you will never or rarely see the AI use Deathclaw, Griffons, Chaos Dragons, Dragon Ogres, Dragon Ogre Shaggoths, Greenskin Giants, Beastmen Giants, Zombie Dragons, Steam Tanks, Demigryph Knights, Blood Knights, Terrorgheists, Manticores, and many of the creatures and mid-high tier heavy infantry and cavalry.

- The unit recruitment/ construction system limits the AI's ability to make use of many of their better units, and often makes the AI use basic, low tier units throughout the campaign, and not making better use of mid-to-high tier units as the campaign progresses; or they have poor army compositions, with armies made up of mostly the same unit; i.e. Norscan armies with all chariots, Greenskins with mostly all rock lobbers and so on. This is due to a province having select buildings that allow the AI to use a limited array of units - an improved construction system would greatly help the AI.

e.g. Perhaps allow core units be to recruited from other buildings, so both the player and the AI can always field well rounded armies, and the AI will not be forced to only recruit only 1 or 2 types of units (e.g. All crossbowmen, all artillery, all chariots etc). As this breaks immersion and makes battles not enjoyable.

- The AI does not construct building chains properly, and it tends to build buildings randomly at times; which severely limits their ability to properly pair building chains together within the same province. Often they are unable to unlock the recruitment of higher tier infantry, monsters, and vehicles so they can use them in their armies. Example: The AI does not build both an Engineer's Workshop and a Smith (level 2) together in the same province, so they do not make Steam Tanks.

- Due to poor AI unit recruitment, this makes the campaign far too easy, as the players have an unfair advantage of being able to utilize the best units available to them, while the AI does not. This quickly makes the campaign become stale and boring, because there's not enough challenging and exciting armies to battle against.


AI Settlement Construction:


- Build orders need to be fixed and improved for every race depending on the province they can settle. We don't need the AI to build creatively, we need it to build reliable, working combinations. **Give AI the ability to deconstruct and replace buildings when necessary to achieve it's building template.**


AI Skill Selection Behavior

- The AI's Lord/Hero skill selection needs improvements, as it does not have a good logic, or priority system when choosing it's skills from the skill tree.

For instance, the AI may never pick important skills for various Lords - such as Death Claw for Karl Franz, or a Zombie Dragon for Mannfred. More evidence is when you confederate with the AI, you can view what skills they chose, and there doesn't appear to be any real logic when their choosing, and tend to pick random skills instead of finishing important skill chains, and progressing through a skill tree to obtain the most important abilities, skills, or traits.

Currently the AI has a system where their Legendary Gear automatically unlocks and is given to them when they reach the unlock level; adding Legendary Mounts to this could be a good solution to ensure they will use them.


AI Campaign Behavior:

- Overall, most race AI are too passive, sitting in their settlements - even when it may be advantageous for them to strike out and take a settlement and should be more aggressive and better at launching offensive invasions. This tends to make each settlement-based race more predictable in their behavior (findings from the mod community is, the long build time on constructing siege equipment, discourages the AI from being more aggressive).

- AI needs to be more concerned about it's survival, being more protective around it's borders and forming "offensive campaigns", large hosts with a city as target, instead of running around leaving all it's towns undefended while running away from your armies and pillaging that backwater settlement on the other end of your empire.
A great example of the offensive campaigns would be "Mount and Blade : Warband". You will see the armies of a faction all gather to take a city, and the other AI will react by creating a defensive host of armies to counter it, leading to massive battles.

- The AI needs improved diplomatic behavior. e.g. You can offer the AI an immense sum of money for a peace treaty, non-aggression pact, trade agreement etc, yet they will not take it, even if it is in their better interest to do so.

- The AI confederates too quickly, leaving little interactions between other factions, and making the campaign less random with faction war results, and more predictable, which results with the campaign being less interesting with multiple playthroughs.

Battle AI:

- AI still uses certain spells poorly; specifically Vortex spells, and tends to cast them on single targets (such as Lords and Heroes) at times, when they have no effect (I often see penumbral Pendulum cast on a lord with no units nearby). They need to use the right spells against the right types of units.

- The AI can be too defensive at times, and with no counter artillery, it will sit back and get hammered by artillery and spells, and take massive casualties. If the AI is under threat in it's position, it should move out to engage the enemy so they at least have a chance, and not lose much of it's army before the melee begins.


Campaign Skills Trees and Legendary Lord Traits for all Original Races:

- The original races could use further improvements for their skill trees to make them more interesting and effective, especially compared to the improved effects some of the new DLC races have.

It is nice to see Lords, such as Belthasar Gelt, get some updates to make him a more powerful and attractive Lord choice (the +10 armor for all units in his army); more changes like this for other Lords would be great (*cough* HEINRICH KEMMLER)


Race Specific Issues:

- Horde AI uses much of the same AI behavior, especially when it comes to recruitment, as the settlement-based factions. Apart from relying on script for new hordes to spawn, they have a lot of trouble improving existing hordes with better units, and creating viable armies to be effective in the campaign.

Beastmen:

- The Beastmen race (not the Warherds of Chaos) is extremely underwhelming in their current state. They do not offer a suitable threat to the player, or other AI factions currently, and tend to be wiped out early in the campaign, and when they appear again eventually, they are easily wiped out. They rely on conquering to gain income, but with their armies lacking quality, their armies cannot make much progress against other AI factions - especially as the campaign difficulty increases, and these other races (with settlements and large income) become more powerful in comparison.

- Beastmen armies do not utilize most of the units available to them. In the script file wh_scripted_events.lua, which governs what units the Beastmen spawn with, they have a small selection of units which have a chance of appearing in their armies when they spawn. For example:

"wh_dlc03_bst_inf_ungor_spearmen_0",
"wh_dlc03_bst_inf_ungor_raiders_0",
"wh_dlc03_bst_inf_minotaurs_0",
"wh_dlc03_bst_inf_chaos_warhounds_0",
"wh_dlc03_bst_inf_cygor_0"

Allowing them to have a larger variety of units they can use as the game progresses, would help them a lot to become a bigger threat as the campaign ages. e.g. Gores, Bestigors, Beastmen Giants, Razorgors, Razorgor chariots, Chaos Spawn, Minotaurs with great Axes and Shields.


Trait scripting improvements:

- How characters gain traits needs to be improved and be more logical. e.g. You can defeat a Greenskin army, kill the captives, and your Lord can still gain a trait called "Likes Greenskins".

- Add the V2 traits (like the ones Bretonnia has) to all lords and such.

To clarify, look at the traits that other races like Dwarves get, vs traits the Bretonnian races get. The Bret Traits both explain how you get the traits, and have a feature which allows you to get rid of them (praying).


Auto-Resolve:

- Currently, auto-resolve makes the game too easy and favors the player too heavily. This makes it a crutch that can easily be relied upon by the player to overcome the AI, even on harder difficulty levels. A more balanced and fair auto-resolve would be great.

- Ranged infantry units have too much of a significant impact on auto-resolve, and give an unfair advantage to certain units, which normally wouldn't be so effective in a battle.

Sub-Factions Within Each Race:

- Every race could use additional sub factions to choose from, with new Legendary Lord starting positions. This enhances the game for multiplayer, coop, and singleplayer campaigns. Please continue to do this with future expansion races and dlc races, and thank you so much for making these changes in the first game.

Notable races that are in desperate need of this still are; Dwarfs Karak Kadrin playable with Ungrim as their faction leader; The Empire with playable Middenheim with Boris Todbringer.


Diplomatic Options:


- More diplomatic options are needed, particularly ones we have seen in previous Total War games, and could make a return. Notably, the ability for the player and AI to give settlements as gifts in negotiations.

Additional Features and Improvements:

- As in previous TW titles, allow players the choice to give control of secondary armies and reinforcements for the AI to use. For many people, controlling 30-40 units in a battle can be too overwhelming, and the unit bar is cluttered with icons.

- A multi-threaded engine. Move to Vulkan and skip DX12. This gives TWW the ultimate reach of platforms, simplifies development considerably, and improves performance for ALL platforms, like MacOS and Linux. This offers extra performance, and bigger market, which translates to more money generated, and leads to bigger and more ambitious titles in the future.

- The mod community needs more detailed changelogs, which would greatly help in the mod update process.

- An improved mod launcher is needed, where we can adjust mod load order, and see the download/upload rate/mb and remaining time.


Lastly, as a long time TW player, modding and Total War have always had a synergy together - all of us mod makers and mod users sincerely appreciate what you have done to give us the ability to enjoy modding, and we hope you may consider expanding and improving the modding tools in the future. Millions of us believe this would be a great investment, not a loss, as modding helps Total War to expand and become more profitable, and fosters a better relationship between the fans and developer.

Thank you for your hard work, and we're looking forward to the future of the franchise. We hope we can play a role in helping you to improve the game we all love so dearly!

Post edited by SteelFaith on
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Comments

  • MakoTheMakoMakoTheMako Registered Users Posts: 1,246
    Love this, excellent post.

    The only thing I would add would be resolving the issues of rosters missing important units.

    die about it

  • EarlEssexEarlEssex Southend-on-SeaRegistered Users Posts: 248
    +1 to all of the above. Great constructive criticism, and nicely prefaced with a tribute that I'm sure many (very) old school tabletop players like myself feel to CA for resurrecting the world that was.

  • nathanc070nathanc070 Member Registered Users Posts: 98
    love it.

    Also, if CA is unwilling to increase campaign capability to 2+ players, can they atleast allow Modders the opportunity to create a mod for it? Huge demand!
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    edited April 2017
    Can't like and support this post enough.

    I would like to add fairly insignificant trade to the list. Now if it's supposed to be a low income deal OK but don't let the ressource buildings give you 200 times more than you can ever sell for no reason or let us sell more ressources per faction and more ressources the bigger the trade partner in landmass to counteract the inevitable confederations.

    I think the best solution would be a mix of both reducing the number of ressources per building and increasing the number you can sell as well as making it scale with the size of trade partner.
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 2,042
    edited April 2017
    The game itself has become my pref since WoW (when it was great, before the last non-sense expansions). I've played like 1000+ hours and I expect and hope to play thousands more in the future, and I don't even bore because the constant DLCs, additions, and more concretly because the work that modders make with their mods (specially Steel Faith, for he has created an almost-perfect overhaul of the game which makes it interesting and more lore accurate for me and for thousands of players).

    I've seen how the game is improving with the pace of time, and how you use the feedback to do it, and it is because of that that I have hope to see this game in all its glorious potential. I support fully this thread and this one.

    Thanks both CA, GW and the community for making my childshood dream real, and I hope me and millions of persons see it improved to become all it can be.
  • JusJus Registered Users Posts: 3
    This game is the most promising Total War ever! Please connect more with the community (polls, suggestions, look at the most wanted mods, etc.), improve the AI, stay close to the lore (add these super cool an well known heroes who could join the army or serve as agents), don´t mess around with little rock/paper/scissor balance problems, instead focus on beautiful carnage and devastation in battle.

    ...and PLEASE: slow down the battle pace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! epic battles which are over in 7 minutes are...not so epic if i can´t enjoy looking at the frontlines because everyone perishes so fast
  • CintegoCintego Registered Users Posts: 192
    agreed agreed agreed
  • BeyshanBeyshan Registered Users Posts: 2
    /sign

    Every argument.

    Please let this happen CA, you'd make a lot of your fans really happy.
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,197
    Most are correct, but I personally think the AI should not cheat top tier armies like past games.

    I personally like the fact that the AI can't recruit steam tanks simply because it's turn 100 and I have access to terrorgiests.


    Likewise, I do not think the problem is that the AI is not aggressive enough in the campaign map. It's that the AI has no way of winning.


    That's the core problem with how easy the game it, you are the only one playing to win.

    I'm really hoping that the vortex goal of all factions will really drive some actions.


    So nice op, but don't say this is from the whole Community.
  • knodo85knodo85 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,135
    What community? There's a community? All this time I've been living in a community I had no idea.
  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Registered Users Posts: 3,328
    I agree with your post and nearly all of the points in there unreservedly, although it really does irritate me sometimes when someone claims to speak 'for the community', just because I often disagree with those posts.

    Excellent AI points though, and very constructive.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Registered Users Posts: 1,537
    edited April 2017
    I agree totally wit SteelFaith

    Would be nice to get a HUD to speed up the AIs turns similar to the battle HUD (see picture below. Its hazy to tap ony with space and this "space speed" is sometimes to slow, would be nice to doube this speed.





    In late game we have a lot of lords. Would be nice to see them in an special menu like the one of the senat of the roman empire in rome 2 (picture below). This menu should list them all in a list with little picture, name, level, class and their location. This would be easier than to click through the actual game hero/lord menu.





    An official reskin for kislev, border princes, tilea and estalia would be very nice too.

    A diplomatic option to force 2 allies of the player which are in war with each other to peace would be nice. Should ony be able for humans, dwarfs and high elves in their own race. Because in the empire it is strange that the emperor can't say to the other empire subfactions: "don't fight each other when chaos is coming".
  • Deekin_ScalesingerDeekin_Scalesinger Registered Users Posts: 33
    Agreed with OP completly.I hope CA take all our suggestion to fix game with new patches.Well at least i hope..
  • WarriorkingWarriorking Registered Users Posts: 2
    As a long time Total War and Warhammer Table Top Fan, I fully support this motion. Total War Warhammer is by far the TW game with the most potential.
  • Trebor_twTrebor_tw Registered Users Posts: 599
    Half of that is fixed by existing mods
  • MrMecHMrMecH Registered Users Posts: 2,390
    I praise CA because of this. They usually listen our respond and fixed its.
    SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

  • BiesBies Junior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 5,564


    "I shivered at the sight of her - her beauty far beyond that of mortal man. But her soul glowed with an inner darkness that chilled my very core."









  • ShermanSherman Member Registered Users Posts: 952

    I expected the classic long post of whining, I was wrong, good thread.
  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Registered Users Posts: 1,001
    Very good points, the only thing I would be a bit concerned about if implemented would be much stronger spawn armies as the game goes on (->Beastmen). I don't think a system where armies can instantly spawn allows for these armies to be very strong, I would suggest some kind of predictability for those spawns to come with it so that you can plan ahead and it does not feel cheap.
  • WJxReloadedWJxReloaded Registered Users Posts: 3


    I agree with OP and hope CA listens to us if not to all at least to some/most points of it!

    Much love,

    ~Jester
  • CoveredfiresCoveredfires Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,134
    The two big ones for me are, one of which you mentioned in your post:

    - DX12 or Vulkan, preferably Vulkan as it is a better API. Massive performance gains and which will certainly allow for more ambitious games in the future in terms of Larger scale Maps and Armies. (This is a requirement if a Warhammer 40k will ever come, hopeful wishing).

    - 2+ Multiplayer Campaign Games. Potential lost by not allowing this. I have many friends who would love to play together, or against each other, 1v1 gets old for instance. No backstabbing, switching alliances..etc..
    Sometimes by losing a battle you find a new way to win the war.
    Donald Trump

  • WaynaWayna Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1
    I approve this post !!
  • JamoidJamoid Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 16
    +1 of course. It's great to see someone taking a proactive stance rather than just complaining or giving up. Very positive.
  • WJxReloadedWJxReloaded Registered Users Posts: 3
    edited April 2017
    In addition I'd like to add something more that is concerning me and maybe others:

    Battle AI:

    Infantry.. Infantry... Infantry... these poor fellas always charge in so fast.. so brainlessly and mostly head-on, leaving all the flanks open, all the missile units to be easily wiped out.
    The AI needs to be more reserved when it comes to charging with infantry, they shouldn't be so suicidal.
    Way too many massive outnumbered battles I've won, just because AI left their flanks so wide open without any left inf units to counter-flank or defend the certain flanks from my charges. Or even use those reserve units to try and flank, instead of charging head on.
    In my opinion even if Ai could be set to be more conservative with how it uses it's units in battle, it would be improved significantly from what it is now.


    Edit:

    The two big ones for me are, one of which you mentioned in your post:

    - DX12 or Vulkan, preferably Vulkan as it is a better API. Massive performance gains and which will certainly allow for more ambitious games in the future in terms of Larger scale Maps and Armies. (This is a requirement if a Warhammer 40k will ever come, hopeful wishing).

    Don't they already have DX12 support?


    Cheers!

    ~Jester.
  • XavierwallzXavierwallz Registered Users Posts: 10
    Well constructed post. I hope they listen to the feedback provided. Love your mod btw. It truly makes WH the best it can be provided the limitations set forth with game.
  • RazmirthRazmirth CalgaryRegistered Users Posts: 2,272
    A calm, level headed post about game balance and changes players want to see? B...bl...blasphemy!!!!

    Good on ya. Good to see someone who realizes you get more with sugar than you do with crap.
  • SteelFaithSteelFaith Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,000
    edited April 2017
    I know this is a big list, but it really is refined down to the most essential and objective issues. For instance, an honorable mention would be to slow down combat, as this is a big request from millions of TW players, but I realize this is something that is more of a matter of opinion and taste (even if a majority probably prefer a pace of combat between what we have now, and Medieval II).

    Also, I realize modders can enhance or improve some of these features I listed, as many of them I have worked on myself. Although, I do not feel like all the customers who purchase this game should need to rely on the work of a modder to have access to these improvements, and there could come a time where a modder can no longer update and support their work for future versions.

    If CA can address these changes, it would be a great thing for people who love the vanilla game itself, and for those who love to mod their game. It's a win/win for all.

    Thank you for all those in the TWW community supporting this, and thank you to CA in advance for taking the time to read and consider these changes for the future. For now, good luck finishing this next massive undertaking - the trailer looked amazing!
  • GuvenorenGuvenoren Junior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 277
    Not too bad, I like it.
  • SteelFaithSteelFaith Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,000
    To note, I titled this as from the community, because Total War truly has a global community of passionate fans and modders. Also, people like Radious, Zingertits, Cataph, IndyPride, Loremaster of Sotek, and others, have pledged their support for this effort to reach out to CA, and you can expect to hear from soon.
This discussion has been closed.