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Warriors of Chaos Campaign Redone (Devs are very welcome to express thoughts)

135

Comments

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,703Registered Users
    So all you've got in response to my post is a substance-free image macro (BTW, flagged and reported for trolling). I take that as you admitting that you have no counter to my argument and that my criticisms are 100% valid.

    Which means CA would be well advised to steer clear of your ideas.

  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,242Registered Users
    Mods have the possibility to make the campaign better, arguably better than CA simply because it allows me to get to get what I want, as well as allowing you to get what you want, even if what we want are entirely opposite things, ie I want the game easier whereas you want the game harder.

    The fact that Workshop exists, despite its limitations, are a huge benefit for the game and TW in general and everyone except people like you are taking advantage of it and enjoying the game more as a result.

    But of course you can always just sit there, ignore all the mods you might benefit from, and the mere basis that mods don't, won't and should not fix anything you consider problems.

    Besides if it can be modded, it only proves how easy it would be for CA to do it. Though it also proves that CA doesn't need to do it, either.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    I don't think there's really a case here for claiming the citadels would promote a passive playstyle. You still need to raze to get respectable amounts of horde growth and you still need to sack or you'll start draining dark favor like a cup with no bottom. I highly doubt the introduction of these forts will change that necessity.

    And I still have to disagree with the taking of heroes, armies, and lords. It's a cool idea sure and it harps back to the old days of Total War but it's just way too powerful for this game and it's just another annoying thing the AI will spam you with. Assassinations are still annoying as hell. How fun do you think it'll be to have your entire army 'assassinated'? How about every turn when you try to build a new one? We already have chaos rebellions which plays the role of the corrupting influence in places with high chaos corruption.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited April 2017

    So all you've got in response to my post is a substance-free image macro (BTW, flagged and reported for trolling). I take that as you admitting that you have no counter to my argument and that my criticisms are 100% valid.

    Which means CA would be well advised to steer clear of your ideas.

    I don't like repeating myself to naysaying trolls that thinks CA agrees with him. You've been at it for a while. And I've been cooperating with you. But you seem to have a problem with my explanations and CA should listen to you instead of me? If you have a problem with me take it up to a moderator, and cry on his shoulders. You won't find me trying to constantly explain something to one person over and over.

    If you can't handle disagreement and feel the need to resort to acting like CA and everyone is is behind you, you won't find me caring to constantly point out your arrogance. I'll just give you a stupid meme and move on. It's just a video game, it's not your life so lighten up and humble yourself because it's not really inspiring me to give you a proper answer again and again.
    Post edited by ChaosDragonBorn on
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    daelin4 said:

    Mods have the possibility to make the campaign better, arguably better than CA simply because it allows me to get to get what I want, as well as allowing you to get what you want, even if what we want are entirely opposite things, ie I want the game easier whereas you want the game harder.

    The fact that Workshop exists, despite its limitations, are a huge benefit for the game and TW in general and everyone except people like you are taking advantage of it and enjoying the game more as a result.

    But of course you can always just sit there, ignore all the mods you might benefit from, and the mere basis that mods don't, won't and should not fix anything you consider problems.

    Besides if it can be modded, it only proves how easy it would be for CA to do it. Though it also proves that CA doesn't need to do it, either.

    CA can make better creative advances than mods, plain and simple. But this thread is not about mods like Pinkerton00 said.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,242Registered Users



    CA can make better creative advances than mods, plain and simple. But this thread is not about mods like Pinkerton00 said.

    Those advances are towards Game2, Game3, and DLC, plain and simple.

    This thread may not be about mods, but that's like saying I want no upkeep penalty as Clan Angrund.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited April 2017
    daelin4 said:



    CA can make better creative advances than mods, plain and simple. But this thread is not about mods like Pinkerton00 said.

    Those advances are towards Game2, Game3, and DLC, plain and simple.

    This thread may not be about mods, but that's like saying I want no upkeep penalty as Clan Angrund.
    Sure. And I know this already. Many people think game 3 will see a heavy focus on chaos and I agree with that.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users

    So all you've got in response to my post is a substance-free image macro (BTW, flagged and reported for trolling). I take that as you admitting that you have no counter to my argument and that my criticisms are 100% valid.

    Which means CA would be well advised to steer clear of your ideas.

    I'll just give you a stupid meme and move on. It's just a video game, it's not your life so lighten up and humble yourself.
    "Humble thyself before thou stumble thyself"
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,887Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Stop the personal comments in the posts or the thread wil be closed.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    So all you've got in response to my post is a substance-free image macro (BTW, flagged and reported for trolling). I take that as you admitting that you have no counter to my argument and that my criticisms are 100% valid.

    Which means CA would be well advised to steer clear of your ideas.

    I'll just give you a stupid meme and move on. It's just a video game, it's not your life so lighten up and humble yourself.
    "Humble thyself before thou stumble thyself"
    Who says that? I looked it up and I got James 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

    Is it in game? lol
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    So all you've got in response to my post is a substance-free image macro (BTW, flagged and reported for trolling). I take that as you admitting that you have no counter to my argument and that my criticisms are 100% valid.

    Which means CA would be well advised to steer clear of your ideas.

    I'll just give you a stupid meme and move on. It's just a video game, it's not your life so lighten up and humble yourself.
    "Humble thyself before thou stumble thyself"
    Who says that? I looked it up and I got James 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

    Is it in game? lol
    No it's just... CDB said something about memes and then 'humble yourself' so I made that for him to use.

    ... Don't over think it.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited April 2017
    Just noticed after play testing chaos again, that they wouldn't need the raiding encampment stance or the new buildings. Leveling up you lords and current buildings will mostly help with income. Also it's nice to be ever onward in tearing down civilization as chaos and desperate need for money or dark favor forces that. Otherwise we'll be sitting there soaking up money at some point as chaos. Maybe even too early, which is why it's unnecessary. Also the citadel idea is really better now, because corruption does go away faster than you know (and it's annoying that the campaign ends completely after your armies die). All it takes is one mistake, and not even a bad one.

    Also there is a general idea I liked from @az88 in the other thread.
    az88 said:

    Honestly, the WoC campaign is awful and you can tell they were just pushed out to bring a few extra quid in. If Chaos were only meant to be playable in game 3 then the current, awful, state of Chaos makes sense.

    As an end game thing they're fine; but they're not ready to be played. Thankfully, Bretonnia was so much better that it restored my faith in CA to get future stuff right.

    For a start, you either need more cooperation or more rivalries with other Chaos characters. You either need to have each faction having different goals and spawning in at different times in the game, or you need to have them all share objectives and get huge rewards (from the gods, naturally) for achieving them.

    So you start as Archeon and your first objective is to take and destroy Praag. But after a random number of turns (between 'x' and 'y') another LL will spawn in with a powerful army and go after Praag. If they take it before you, you lose favour in the eyes of the gods.

    If you lose too many objectives then the gods, and their followers, may begin to doubt you. Perhaps it becomes harder (more expensive) to draw the most powerful warriors to your banner. Perhaps, as CA like to reuse mechanics, a version of fightiness attrition sets in as warriors leave you for your (now) rivals for the attention of the gods. When you gain favour, you could be reward with artefacts from the gods and new followers could flock to your banner (cheaper recruitment for a time).

    Individual units should be able to gain mutations as they achieve veteran status. In game this could add armour piercing (claws) or poison (fangs). Units which are blessed by the gods in this way should suffer horribly if they fail in battle...

    Chaos shouldn't feel settled and stale as it currently does.

    I feel the chaos campaign needs to have the dark gods more involved. Just like chivalry is a gameplay element. But this time around it could be a little more involved and engaging than chivalry of course. I think the dark gods should add unpredictable twists to your campaign.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited April 2017
    Before I get into that, I remembered something from the old chaos discussion that added a layer to some of the new corruption abilities. It was the enabling of chaos manipulation through a trait that was given by staying in chaos corrupted land for certain time. So you wouldn't be able(or less likely) to manipulate lords and heroes to your cause. If CA made ways for older faction to get rid of bad traits, that would be cool too.
    KGpoopy said:


    Also there is a general idea I liked from @az88 in the other thread.

    az88 said:

    Honestly, the WoC campaign is awful and you can tell they were just pushed out to bring a few extra quid in. If Chaos were only meant to be playable in game 3 then the current, awful, state of Chaos makes sense.

    As an end game thing they're fine; but they're not ready to be played. Thankfully, Bretonnia was so much better that it restored my faith in CA to get future stuff right.

    For a start, you either need more cooperation or more rivalries with other Chaos characters. You either need to have each faction having different goals and spawning in at different times in the game, or you need to have them all share objectives and get huge rewards (from the gods, naturally) for achieving them.

    So you start as Archeon and your first objective is to take and destroy Praag. But after a random number of turns (between 'x' and 'y') another LL will spawn in with a powerful army and go after Praag. If they take it before you, you lose favour in the eyes of the gods.

    If you lose too many objectives then the gods, and their followers, may begin to doubt you. Perhaps it becomes harder (more expensive) to draw the most powerful warriors to your banner. Perhaps, as CA like to reuse mechanics, a version of fightiness attrition sets in as warriors leave you for your (now) rivals for the attention of the gods. When you gain favour, you could be reward with artefacts from the gods and new followers could flock to your banner (cheaper recruitment for a time).

    Individual units should be able to gain mutations as they achieve veteran status. In game this could add armour piercing (claws) or poison (fangs). Units which are blessed by the gods in this way should suffer horribly if they fail in battle...

    Chaos shouldn't feel settled and stale as it currently does.

    I feel the chaos campaign needs to have the dark gods more involved. Just like chivalry is a gameplay element. But this time around it could be a little more involved and engaging than chivalry of course. I think the dark gods should add unpredictable twists to your campaign.
    There is a feature I wrote for the skaven, but if not used it could be done for chaos instead. It's in response to a person wanting more complexity when skaven comes around, and how infighting is lame.



    Now I think it's hard to add complexity to any race when the LLs are un-killable. There is no incentive to make political schemes and do the full potential of the council of thirteen when the game holds your hand and tells you no one will die unless you completely suck and get your entire faction destroyed. So in saying that...

    I think infighting can actually be of use for CA in doing the Skaven. If they implement loyalty and influence as mechanics to go with the potential way they do the council of thirteen, infighting can be a consequence of low loyalty and influence. On high loyalties there will be no infighting, and maybe a bonus to attributes in the army or campaign. On high influence, your position on the council of thirteen is strong. To maintain loyalty you must win battles. To maintain influence you must engage in intrigue and schemes through a council of thirteen window. This window is where you can assassinate rivals, and do other bad little skaven stuff. This screen can also be where you can set out to complete random objectives to represent the council's votes on what to do next.

    More on the random objectives; these can actually not be random. Instead they can be 2 or 3 choices on what to do. These choices can be "sack this settlement", "deploy hero here", "assault this town with hero", "siege this city", "kill this rival","plague this region", and so on and so on. After thirteen turns, the objectives will switch. In that way they will be different and random and you must be very active in your campaign.

    In the same way, WoC can have this feature as a very nice way of engaging the dark gods in the campaign. All the missions can be some of the things from the overhaul too. Such as building a citadel, which will take time and effort. Manipulate this lord, or this hero.
    Post edited by ChaosDragonBorn on
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    Ok ok, moving on from Chaos infighting I'm going to attempt to explain the tech side of the overhaul.

    Starting with the new Corruption ideas. Manipulating other agents to join your cause is the most basic one, something that could be easily implemented. It's from other total war games as well, and fitting for a unique chaos agent ability. So there's not much to say there preaching to the choir.
    Next, and way more complicated, is the the suggestion of using your chaos agent to take control or manipulate the opposing lord. Resulting in you commanding his army. This would be done the same way you do other agent actions. This was in shogun2 I believe where you could have a chunk of an army double cross to your side. But this can be done more simply, by either having that lord die and replaced with a chaos lord, replaced by that agent, or have that lord be under your command. Essentially either embedding your agent as general, or converting the army to your control. I know an army cannot be without a general. Of course these would need a new event thing saying "This Hero/Lord succumbs to the power of Chaos".
    Lastly, the ability to have an agent infiltrate a settlement. Very new to the franchise. New ability simply called Infiltrate. Done the same way you would assault the garrison of a settlement. I'm thinking two things here, either this action be done by click fail or succeed like normally, or this be a case where the infiltrate action has a wait time of X amount of turns, disabling the use of that agent until X turns are done. The success or fail is at the mercy of the normal conditions of agent actions like skill and level which I'll get into briefly. This feature would be very much like the run spy network, but against an enemy settlement that results in your agents death, wounded state, or a vandalization building that replaces one of the buildings in the settlement spreading corruption, bad public order, and having a huge building cost like -1200 or something. This in my head simulates the hero establishing cults.
    All these new corruption options can be tied to one skill node. Every chaos agent, or just sorcerers, can have a new skill node named Manipulation with 3 upgrades. Possibly unlocked at level 5.

    Now to the Citadel idea. Ok this will definitely require new conditions. The idea of the chaos citadel is that you can only build it on a certain amount of corruption in the region. So the condition or coding would be to add that option on a percentage of corruption of your choosing as a post siege option. Or a settlement occupation option. Another condition is that they are exclusive to main settlement regions, or the capital settlement.
    I don't know if this would be a new condition, but it's more a limit, which is Citadels are limited to three. Limited to 3 because of their purpose which I'm going to get into. These citadels are not technically Altdorf or Black Crag, these citadels are Oak of ages. One building chain with maybe 2 or 3 upgrades. You can add whatever traits to these buildings you like, but the main point is to save your campaign. Every chaos player knows that loseing your armies is the end of the game unlike non horde factions. Well these citadels would have a campaign saving trait. Only can you build three, anywhere you want. The accompanying traits I would suggests are to blast the area with corruption, helping with replenishment much like Norsca. As you might know, corruption goes down over time, but these wicked citadels will fix that right up :naughty: in the areas you choose to erect a citadel. To note, these citadels being destroyed should not kill the campaign, but it allows for you to lose the campaign once your armies are lost again, just like normal.

    I can kind of see where you are coming from, there are certain tables that have this information. But I'm not sure how to properly evaluate the data . I'm not a modder. But I did see where some of the background workings might be. I understand the conditions part because that's scripting and there is a table full of conditions. So it's not too far fetched and outside possibilities I think. But having more than one oak of ages type settlement limited to 3 will be tricky to make. Could just limit it to one. After all, Archaon did just have one as far as I know, the brass keep. But a corruption refuge of 3 would be nice, because I would want to place one in each part of the continents.
    Also what would be cool is the ability to rename the citadels, so I can call one Mordor :blush:
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    Before I get into that, I remembered something from the old chaos discussion that added a layer to some of the new corruption abilities. It was the enabling of chaos manipulation through a trait that was given by staying in chaos corrupted land for certain time. So you wouldn't be able(or less likely) to manipulate lords and heroes to your cause. If CA made ways for older faction to get rid of bad traits, that would be cool too.

    KGpoopy said:


    Also there is a general idea I liked from @az88 in the other thread.

    az88 said:

    Honestly, the WoC campaign is awful and you can tell they were just pushed out to bring a few extra quid in. If Chaos were only meant to be playable in game 3 then the current, awful, state of Chaos makes sense.

    As an end game thing they're fine; but they're not ready to be played. Thankfully, Bretonnia was so much better that it restored my faith in CA to get future stuff right.

    For a start, you either need more cooperation or more rivalries with other Chaos characters. You either need to have each faction having different goals and spawning in at different times in the game, or you need to have them all share objectives and get huge rewards (from the gods, naturally) for achieving them.

    So you start as Archeon and your first objective is to take and destroy Praag. But after a random number of turns (between 'x' and 'y') another LL will spawn in with a powerful army and go after Praag. If they take it before you, you lose favour in the eyes of the gods.

    If you lose too many objectives then the gods, and their followers, may begin to doubt you. Perhaps it becomes harder (more expensive) to draw the most powerful warriors to your banner. Perhaps, as CA like to reuse mechanics, a version of fightiness attrition sets in as warriors leave you for your (now) rivals for the attention of the gods. When you gain favour, you could be reward with artefacts from the gods and new followers could flock to your banner (cheaper recruitment for a time).

    Individual units should be able to gain mutations as they achieve veteran status. In game this could add armour piercing (claws) or poison (fangs). Units which are blessed by the gods in this way should suffer horribly if they fail in battle...

    Chaos shouldn't feel settled and stale as it currently does.

    I feel the chaos campaign needs to have the dark gods more involved. Just like chivalry is a gameplay element. But this time around it could be a little more involved and engaging than chivalry of course. I think the dark gods should add unpredictable twists to your campaign.
    There is a feature I wrote for the skaven, but if not used it could be done for chaos instead. It's in response to a person wanting more complexity when skaven comes around, and how infighting is lame.



    Now I think it's hard to add complexity to any race when the LLs are un-killable. There is no incentive to make political schemes and do the full potential of the council of thirteen when the game holds your hand and tells you no one will die unless you completely suck and get your entire faction destroyed. So in saying that...

    I think infighting can actually be of use for CA in doing the Skaven. If they implement loyalty and influence as mechanics to go with the potential way they do the council of thirteen, infighting can be a consequence of low loyalty and influence. On high loyalties there will be no infighting, and maybe a bonus to attributes in the army or campaign. On high influence, your position on the council of thirteen is strong. To maintain loyalty you must win battles. To maintain influence you must engage in intrigue and schemes through a council of thirteen window. This window is where you can assassinate rivals, and do other bad little skaven stuff. This screen can also be where you can set out to complete random objectives to represent the council's votes on what to do next.

    More on the random objectives; these can actually not be random. Instead they can be 2 or 3 choices on what to do. These choices can be "sack this settlement", "deploy hero here", "assault this town with hero", "siege this city", "kill this rival","plague this region", and so on and so on. After thirteen turns, the objectives will switch. In that way they will be different and random and you must be very active in your campaign.

    In the same way, WoC can have this feature as a very nice way of engaging the dark gods in the campaign. All the missions can be some of the things from the overhaul too. Such as building a citadel, which will take time and effort. Manipulate this lord, or this hero.
    Yeah I remember the skaven idea, but it's also like a remnant of the eye of the gods mechanic we didn't finish talking about.

    @ChaosDragonBorn

    I made two suggestions for improving the WoC gameplay, you even quoted one in this thread:

    1.The Eye of the Gods mechanic
    The WoC have to do certain deeds to keep the gods entertained or risk losing divine support. I made this suggestion before Bretonnia got something similar with their chivalry mechanic

    That's right, Combat Wombat described my feeling toward that before I could make my thoughts. It's a great mechanic, but I think the failing missions thing would be annoying to put it lightly, as the random missions are so inconvenient and just wrong. But now that you brought it up again I think I have some suggestion on that.

    Make those missions separate from regular missions. The quests can be very chaos specific, exclusive to the WoC. Every now and again maybe 5 to 10 turns these quest will pop up after completion of the last quest. These quest can include the very things we all have been talking about. :smile: Such as

    -Sack/Raze this place
    -Conquer this capital and erect a citadel
    -Manipulate/Assassinate this hero
    -Manipulate/Assassinate this lord
    -Corrupt this region to 25%
    -ally/destroy beastmen
    -infiltrate this settlement and establish a blasphemous building
    -raid this region
    -give dark favor to this faction in exchange for corruption

    Then there can be special quest that have their own quest maps with quick story or lore narrative. These quest can take you to the new world, southlands, and even the chaos waste. These quest reward you with new heroes, dark favor, and increase your dark gods status.

    All these things fail or succeed will affect your "The Eye of the Gods" meter.
    KGpoopy said:

    What's the incentive to complete these missions other than the normal boost to attributes and negative penalties to failing? I think there would have to be a exciting reward or penalty to high dark god pleasure and low dark god pleasure.

    Maybe the rewards/punishments can be random.
    Punishment
    -Another chaos stack appears to fight you
    -an agent betrays you
    -you lose an entire stack because the general turn into a chaos spawn LOL
    - infighting attrition :wink:

    Rewards
    -No infighting attrition
    -Upkeep of monsters reduced greatly
    -Able to recruit Daemon Princes and daemons
    -Recruitment costs reduced
    -the ability to mark your troops and turn them into nurgle warriors, slaanesh warriors, or khorne berserkers, or tzeench warroirs

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    New corruption abilities
    Eye of the Gods
    3 Citadels

    They are 3 features I want for the warriors of chaos. Apart from that I would like the full roster to. But the no dlc for dlc will have us wait a while I guess.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    Ok ok, moving on from Chaos infighting I'm going to attempt to explain the tech side of the overhaul.

    Starting with the new Corruption ideas. Manipulating other agents to join your cause is the most basic one, something that could be easily implemented. It's from other total war games as well, and fitting for a unique chaos agent ability. So there's not much to say there preaching to the choir.
    Next, and way more complicated, is the the suggestion of using your chaos agent to take control or manipulate the opposing lord. Resulting in you commanding his army. This would be done the same way you do other agent actions. This was in shogun2 I believe where you could have a chunk of an army double cross to your side. But this can be done more simply, by either having that lord die and replaced with a chaos lord, replaced by that agent, or have that lord be under your command. Essentially either embedding your agent as general, or converting the army to your control. I know an army cannot be without a general. Of course these would need a new event thing saying "This Hero/Lord succumbs to the power of Chaos".
    Lastly, the ability to have an agent infiltrate a settlement. Very new to the franchise. New ability simply called Infiltrate. Done the same way you would assault the garrison of a settlement. I'm thinking two things here, either this action be done by click fail or succeed like normally, or this be a case where the infiltrate action has a wait time of X amount of turns, disabling the use of that agent until X turns are done. The success or fail is at the mercy of the normal conditions of agent actions like skill and level which I'll get into briefly. This feature would be very much like the run spy network, but against an enemy settlement that results in your agents death, wounded state, or a vandalization building that replaces one of the buildings in the settlement spreading corruption, bad public order, and having a huge building cost like -1200 or something. This in my head simulates the hero establishing cults.
    All these new corruption options can be tied to one skill node. Every chaos agent, or just sorcerers, can have a new skill node named Manipulation with 3 upgrades. Possibly unlocked at level 5.

    Now to the Citadel idea. Ok this will definitely require new conditions. The idea of the chaos citadel is that you can only build it on a certain amount of corruption in the region. So the condition or coding would be to add that option on a percentage of corruption of your choosing as a post siege option. Or a settlement occupation option. Another condition is that they are exclusive to main settlement regions, or the capital settlement.
    I don't know if this would be a new condition, but it's more a limit, which is Citadels are limited to three. Limited to 3 because of their purpose which I'm going to get into. These citadels are not technically Altdorf or Black Crag, these citadels are Oak of ages. One building chain with maybe 2 or 3 upgrades. You can add whatever traits to these buildings you like, but the main point is to save your campaign. Every chaos player knows that loseing your armies is the end of the game unlike non horde factions. Well these citadels would have a campaign saving trait. Only can you build three, anywhere you want. The accompanying traits I would suggests are to blast the area with corruption, helping with replenishment much like Norsca. As you might know, corruption goes down over time, but these wicked citadels will fix that right up :naughty: in the areas you choose to erect a citadel. To note, these citadels being destroyed should not kill the campaign, but it allows for you to lose the campaign once your armies are lost again, just like normal.

    I can kind of see where you are coming from, there are certain tables that have this information. But I'm not sure how to properly evaluate the data . I'm not a modder. But I did see where some of the background workings might be. I understand the conditions part because that's scripting and there is a table full of conditions. So it's not too far fetched and outside possibilities I think. But having more than one oak of ages type settlement limited to 3 will be tricky to make. Could just limit it to one. After all, Archaon did just have one as far as I know, the brass keep. But a corruption refuge of 3 would be nice, because I would want to place one in each part of the continents.
    Also what would be cool is the ability to rename the citadels, so I can call one Mordor :blush:
    Going back to the tables I was looking at was a fetch quest. I should have listed them in my explanation.

    TExc_script_conditions
    abilities
    action_results
    action_results_addition_outcomes
    agent_actions
    agent_actions_subculture_overrides
    (basically all the agent stuff)
    cai_personalities
    campaign_features
    campaign_localized_strings
    campaign_variables
    character_skill_nodes
    food_factors
    campaign_map_settlements
    settlement_occupation_options
    settlement_vadalisation_buildings
    culture_settlement_occupation_options
    campaign_selltment_display_buildings
  • Grakor456Grakor456 Posts: 108Registered Users
    Honestly, I don't think that Chaos needs a giant rework or new, unique mechanics to be fun. They just need their current mechanics to actually work well.

    Awakening tribes needs to give you vassals, or some other way to prevent awakened tribes from just declaring war on each other within ten turns, which happens without fail. It's supposed to be a major, defining mechanic, but right now it's ignored.

    Creating new hordes needs to be easier. Beastmen can get a jumpstart on new hordes by the Endless Horde moon event, or by getting one through confederation. Chaos horde growth is very slow if you aren't razing cities.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Grakor456 said:


    Awakening tribes needs to give you vassals, or some other way to prevent awakened tribes from just declaring war on each other within ten turns, which happens without fail. It's supposed to be a major, defining mechanic, but right now it's ignored.

    Creating new hordes needs to be easier. Beastmen can get a jumpstart on new hordes by the Endless Horde moon event, or by getting one through confederation. Chaos horde growth is very slow if you aren't razing cities.

    Agree, those happen to be in the OP.
    -- Have the skill boxes that you pay for increase 2 skill points to recruited generals. The main line of tech can offer skill level to the recruited lords , so your late-game lords will be able to jump into the fight much faster.

    --More compliant Norsca factions willing to pay tribute and serve chaos on friendly terms.(After Awakening)

    Although these are certainly the least of my concerns, I like to play as Sigvald first and have Kholek, and then Archaon come in later. But new late game lords are very handicapped for chaos. I also like to spend a lot of time in Norsca trying to subjugate every single tribe, but they act like Chaos is just another tribe after Awakening them. So easier vassalization after awakening would be useful and more lore friendly. But these would just relieve some annoyances rather than making Chaos fun. In addition to that, you can replace generals instead of making an entirely new horde. It still has the late game lord weak, but at least he's in your experienced army.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    edited May 2017


    Well the first step to making something great is by stripping it of everything that objectively makes it bad. Norscans constantly fighting each other and even betraying you, the Chaos player, after awakening them is bad. Get rid of that problem and then add something more to make it fun.
    Post edited by Combat_Wombat on
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited May 2017
    Or add features that fight their handicaps. :wink:

    Got infighting? Add a skill or tech that takes it away making you play for it.

    Awakened Norsca tribes still sleepin on you? Make a tech tree that makes vassalizing easier after awakening.

    Chaos corruption goes away too much? too fast? Have the Rifts blow up the region with corruption. Border regions can get some too.

    Need a refuge like Norsca for replenishment and other things deep into the game?too far from home? Raze a capital and put up a citadel that pumps corruption out and therefore replenishment permanently until destroyed by the enemy.

    Chaos campaign abruptly ends out of no where because of a silly mistake? Work to build a citadel and have that assurance that if your armies die, you'll have that citadel to return to. Only if you have one though. You have to work for it.

    Also I would like the campaign to involve the dark gods a lot more.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:


    Got infighting? Add a skill or tech that takes it away making you play for it.

    No. It's a stupid **** mechanic and everyone hates it. My Chaos campaigns instantly became infinitely more enjoyable when I got the mod that removes it because I didn't have to spent most of my time running away from a mass of 5 armies. Infighting just makes for a very unsatisfying game of cat and mouse.
    KGpoopy said:


    Awakened Norsca tribes still sleepin on you? Make a tech tree that makes vassalizing easier after awakening.

    The problem us not making them a vassal. It's keeping them as one and stopping them from declaring war on your other vassals. They don't seemto actually do much of anything that benefits you. Once you get Sigvald they are only useful for sacking and razing for dark favor and horde growth.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,242Registered Users
    Grakor456 said:

    Honestly, I don't think that Chaos needs a giant rework or new, unique mechanics to be fun. They just need their current mechanics to actually work well.

    Awakening tribes needs to give you vassals, or some other way to prevent awakened tribes from just declaring war on each other within ten turns, which happens without fail. It's supposed to be a major, defining mechanic, but right now it's ignored.

    Creating new hordes needs to be easier. Beastmen can get a jumpstart on new hordes by the Endless Horde moon event, or by getting one through confederation. Chaos horde growth is very slow if you aren't razing cities.

    I agree, it's not the entirety of Chaos that is problematic, it's certain fundamental problems that cause everything else about it to suck when played by the player. Adding things to "fight" these problems just creates bloat at best, and power creep at worst.
    Tweaking these fundamental problems to be more in line with the difficulty of their features is likely to solve more problems, than adding new features without solving them at all.
    Specifically, the idea of giving Chaos Lords two points instead of the usual one per level has two problems: one, that's not how other Lords work and basically serves as a lazy cheat (no better than mods, really), and second, the better method would be to simply adjust existing skills so that a single skill point would be more effective. It's kind of like adding more wheel axles to a car than, say, just improving it's handling characteristics or lightening it's load design. Giving two points per level is effectively adding more bloat for the sole purpose of countering other existing bloat, as opposed to just dealing with the existing bloat. You design the skills around the points, not points around skills.

    There is a mod out recently that tries to make vassals out of liberated factions, but according to the comments there are a lot of problems; it' basically a script that forces the liberated (or Awakened, for Chaos) faction to first be revived, and automatically changed to vassal instead of military allies.
    I think maybe a better idea is that the diplomatic relationship is modified so that making a vassal out of the new faction would be 100% chance of success (though I don't know if that requires modifying the relationship in its entirely so that you can do things like confederate and such instead). In Attila, there was a mod that made all your diplomatic offers 100% chance of success (except demand money, because you can't extort someone that's bankrupt!).
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=906697780&searchtext=liberate

    IIRC creating new hordes demands at least one population surplus, on top of the usual cost constraints. I honestly don't think Chaos needs this additional constraint, seeing as the starting general+ horde is at it's most vulnerable, and the population surplus is needed for structures as well. I'd have gladly preferred increased money cost and army number penalties. Not to mention, once you finally get one, your first reward is infighting penalty. It's like doing lots of voluntary overtime without extra pay, and your reward at retirement is being fired.


    -- Have the skill boxes that you pay for increase 2 skill points to recruited generals. The main line of tech can offer skill level to the recruited lords , so your late-game lords will be able to jump into the fight much faster.

    This idea actually doesn't solve your problem, for two reasons:
    It presents balance problems at the start of the campaign because your LLs effectively level up twice as fast, being able to utilize two skills instead of one, and this power disparity increases as the game goes on. Easier to simply reduce the XP requirements to level up by half the experience.
    Second is that it doesn't make your later Lords gain a better chance of surviving into the late-game scenario, being able to get two points per level doesn't make them any more survivable. In addition, other races feature bonuses where Heroes, Lords and units gain bonus levels on recruitment- the obvious solution then is to simply apply this benefit to Chaos. You avoid the balance problems, solve the late-game issue, and you do it with existing game mechanics that itself are universal
    .
    Given that Legendary Lords never die, I think it's okay that they don't have this sort of bonus in the campaign; they're usually the first ones to recruit anyways, though some of their requirements are ridiculous; Kholek requires one of your Hordes to build the Dragon Ogre Gathering building, a Tier4 building that costs loads of cash and population, whereas Archaeon and Sigvald's requirements are mere inconveniences by comparison; win ten battles and slaughter the captives to unlock Archaeon, which is like 5-10 turns. Sigvald just needs you to Awaken four settlements. The obvious objectively easier way of playing chaos is therefore start the campaign as Kholek. This is a common problem with other races' Legendary Lords.


    The problem us not making them a vassal. It's keeping them as one and stopping them from declaring war on your other vassals. They don't seemto actually do much of anything that benefits you. Once you get Sigvald they are only useful for sacking and razing for dark favor and horde growth.

    Actually with the tech idea, it means that you can live a few turns around Norsca fighting for the XP, and once the tech is unlock switch to making vassals. If you make it so they are vassals upon defeat, you delete one possible avenue for Chaos players to play the game in a diverse manner.
    Sometimes removing something problematic isn't the best solution.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited May 2017
    Ok random idea popped in my head while reading the Storm of Chaos. http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_of_Chaos

    How about instead of three citadels they make 4 unique citadels. One for each dark god. To be able to build them you would need a certain amount of corruption in the province, which was already established, but in addition to that, you would have to have a high dark god approval rating from the eye of the gods feature, and you it should cost you dark favor. My thoughts are that this would basically force you to play for the ability to build a citadel if you wanted to. It's kind of like working for it. Also I agree it should be capital settlement only. But it also could be one citadel per province in general.
    My ideas for these unique citadels would be as follows, (which also includes ideas form the OP)

    Khorne Devoted citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +5% raiding factionwide
    +10 chaos corruption in region
    Reoccurring pop up event that gives a random army of yours frenzy for 3 turns

    Nurgle Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +3% replineshment factionwide
    Plus any potential plague feature in the future
    +20 chaos corruption in region

    Slaanesh Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +4% chaos corruption factionwide
    +10 chaos corruption in region
    +6% to leadership/morale factionwide

    Tzeencth Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +3% agent success chance factionwide
    +5 winds of magic factionwide
    +15 chaos corruption in region

    There could a be an assignment option ability for which one you would like to build post siege or ruined settlement
    capture, but for convenience sake I would like it if it were random. The WoC are generally devoted to all 4 anyway. Also this is might be 3rd game stuff for WoC, but I believe it's just enough without delving deep into the dark gods stuff. So I think it's safe to do whenever game 1 will get another look again.
    Post edited by KGpoopy on
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    Ok random idea popped in my head while reading the Storm of Chaos. http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_of_Chaos

    How about instead of three citadels they make 4 unique citadels. One for each dark god. To be able to build them you would need a certain amount of corruption in the province, which was already established, but in addition to that, you would have to have a high dark god approval rating from the eye of the gods feature, and you it should cost you dark favor. My thoughts are that this would basically force you to play for the ability to build a citadel if you wanted to. It's kind of like working for it. Also I agree it should be capital settlement only. But it also could be one citadel per province.
    My ideas for these unique citadels would be as follows, (which also includes ideas form the OP)

    Khorne Devoted citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +5% raiding factionwide
    +10 chaos corruption in region

    Nurgle Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +3% replineshment factionwide
    Plus any potential plague feature in the future
    +20 chaos corruption in region

    Slaanesh Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +4% chaos corruption factionwide
    +10 chaos corruption in region

    Tzeencth Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +3% agent success chance factionwide
    +5 winds of magic factionwide
    +15 chaos corruption in region

    There could a be an assignment option ability for which one you would like to build post siege or ruined settlement
    capture, but for convenience sake I would like it if it were random. The WoC are generally devoted to all 4 anyway. Also this is might be 3rd game stuff for WoC, but I believe it's just enough without delving deep into the dark gods stuff. So I think it's safe to do whenever game 1 will get another look again.

    Give Khorne and Slaanesh something better man. Those bonuses are useless.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited May 2017

    KGpoopy said:

    Ok random idea popped in my head while reading the Storm of Chaos. http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_of_Chaos

    How about instead of three citadels they make 4 unique citadels. One for each dark god. To be able to build them you would need a certain amount of corruption in the province, which was already established, but in addition to that, you would have to have a high dark god approval rating from the eye of the gods feature, and you it should cost you dark favor. My thoughts are that this would basically force you to play for the ability to build a citadel if you wanted to. It's kind of like working for it. Also I agree it should be capital settlement only. But it also could be one citadel per province.
    My ideas for these unique citadels would be as follows, (which also includes ideas form the OP)

    Khorne Devoted citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +5% raiding factionwide
    +10 chaos corruption in region

    Nurgle Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +3% replineshment factionwide
    Plus any potential plague feature in the future
    +20 chaos corruption in region

    Slaanesh Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +4% chaos corruption factionwide
    +10 chaos corruption in region

    Tzeencth Devoted Citadel
    Keeps the campaign from ending when all armies die
    +3% agent success chance factionwide
    +5 winds of magic factionwide
    +15 chaos corruption in region

    There could a be an assignment option ability for which one you would like to build post siege or ruined settlement
    capture, but for convenience sake I would like it if it were random. The WoC are generally devoted to all 4 anyway. Also this is might be 3rd game stuff for WoC, but I believe it's just enough without delving deep into the dark gods stuff. So I think it's safe to do whenever game 1 will get another look again.

    Give Khorne and Slaanesh something better man. Those bonuses are useless.
    For Slaanesh it could be a morale boost...for reasons.
    For Khorne it could be random events of frenzy popping off for one your armies, but the downside would be a small but fair melee defense cut, -4.
    Post edited by KGpoopy on
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    Fun facts!
    "A Tzeentch Chaos Lord attending a War-Council within his Fortress"


    Sigvald decides to go to pay vengeance to Bretonnia for a nasty bottle of wine he so happened to have. He laid siege to Parravon. "He then goes on to take a break from fighting and turns Parravon into his own personal paradise, feasting on the finest flesh Bretonnia has to offer."

    Brass Keep: An imperial fortress located deep within the mountains which recently fell into the hands of Chaos warriors. On the Middle Mountains: "Due to the harsh and inaccessible terrain of the region, the Mountains have also been known to harbor a large population of the Empire's foes, ranging from the occasional Goblin tribes living within the caves to Chaos warbands occupying the fortified citadel of Brass Keep."

    Repugnants of Brass Keep: The veteran warriors that gathered to Orghotts’ banner at Brass Keep were daemon-touched one and all, for they had previously walked the foetid paths of Nurgle’s garden. Much like their new allies, they would do anything, no matter how foul, to see the mortal realm reforged in the image of their master’s noisome paradise (Orghotts Daemonspew Chaos Lord of Nurgle)

    "At the Ostland town of Ferlangen, the initial successes of the defenders are beginning to fade into memory as the hunters of Ostland are driven back towards their homes. Others have even retreated to lodges in the mountains, expecting the settlement to eventually fall under Chaos control very soon. By the next day, the town defences have been weakened to a breaking point, and the Imperial generals are torn to decide whether to send fresh reinforcements towards their location, weakening their fortified positions in other areas, or to surrender the town to Chaos forces, and possibly cut off support from Bohsenfel Keep.

    After nearly seven days of hard fighting, Count von Raukov has ordered the Imperial defenders within the city of Wolfenburg to withdraw from the capital and head towards their fortified position in Castle Lenkster. Most hastly left the shattered city, but a few determined and vengeful souls stayed behind to continue on their harassment against the forces of Archaon, and his two lieutenants, Feytor "Champion of Nurgle" and Haargroth "Champion of Khorne". With their sacrifice, the defences at Castle Lenkster has been modified and further refitted with a variety of fortifications with each passing hour.

    By the 29th, Melekth finally unleashed his tremendous arcane magic upon the Imperial defenders guarding the northern approach to the Middle Mountains, turning them against the castle defenders like man possessed. Eventually, Bohsenfel has begun to buckle under the relentless assault, and the remaining officers are debating whether to withdraw their forces to the Imperial position in Ferlangen. However by the 1st of Sommarzeit, Ferlagent has fallen under the iron-fisted rule of Kordel Shorgaar, standard bearer of Archaon the Everchosen. With their line of escape cut off, the Imperial soldiers were trapped. "


    Within the walls of the Inevitable City, Archaon sat upon a throne of brass and bone and saw the chieftains and warlords of uncountable tribes lend their allegiance to the new Everchosen.

    "Archaon was now in ascendance; Middenheim was undoubtedly the proudest conquest of their long and storied history, for its capture was an unmatched humiliation of the weakling gods of the Empire.....Archaon had claimed the Temple of Ulric as his hall in the many months since he and his Norsemen had laid the city low. His throne forged from the bones of Ulric's priest, and the hammer of Ghal Maraz set upon it as a trophy - a testament to the supremacy of the Dark gods of the North over the deities of the south. There, he received the supplications of his warriors and daemons who were oath-pledged before the gods to his service....."
    "Archaon, seated upon the throne of a dying world"
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Archaon
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/The_End_Times
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Repugnauts_of_Brass_Keep
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Sigvald
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Middle_Mountains
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_of_Chaos

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