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Warriors of Chaos Campaign Redone (Devs are very welcome to express thoughts)

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  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    I don't think there's really a case here for claiming the citadels would promote a passive playstyle. You still need to raze to get respectable amounts of horde growth and you still need to sack or you'll start draining dark favor like a cup with no bottom. I highly doubt the introduction of these forts will change that necessity.

    And I still have to disagree with the taking of heroes, armies, and lords. It's a cool idea sure and it harps back to the old days of Total War but it's just way too powerful for this game and it's just another annoying thing the AI will spam you with. Assassinations are still annoying as hell. How fun do you think it'll be to have your entire army 'assassinated'? How about every turn when you try to build a new one? We already have chaos rebellions which plays the role of the corrupting influence in places with high chaos corruption.

    I kind of agree with this. Manipulating all 3 could be too much. I think taking a hero is enough.

    I agree about the citadels too. The theory of a passive chaos is debunked by the game itself . The orcs are very aggressive and they can settle. The wood elves are very aggressive and they can sit in Athel Loren forever if they wanted. Same for Norsca. The citadels would give chaos more staying power when and if they build one I think. Also the theory of a passive chaos is contrary to the idea itself. The only way to build the citadels is to play aggressively. Corrupting the map, and razing settlements. When a province is corrupted enough it has the option for chaos to build a citadel. Which is really nice because it punishes you for being idle against them, and it rewards you for your strategy playing as them. It's why I really like the idea.

    With my suggestions to the idea, I think building the citadels should be even harder to do for the player: "To be able to build them, you would need a certain amount of corruption in the province, which was already established, but in addition to that, you would have to have a high dark god approval rating from the eye of the gods feature we kind of talked about, and/or it should cost you dark favor." All this encourages aggressiveness.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    Does CA even look at feedback anymore? I think this should be moved to general.


    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/193724/warriors-of-chaos-campaign-redone/p1
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/189182/warriors-of-chaos-overhaul/p1
    Also I think these two threads should be merged with this one because they are essentially the same, the OP is just updated according to the discussion from all 3 I think. Mind as well put the OP in context.

    What do you think?
    @ChaosDragonBorn
    @BillyRuffian
    @dge1
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    Does CA even look at feedback anymore? I think this should be moved to general.


    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/193724/warriors-of-chaos-campaign-redone/p1
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/189182/warriors-of-chaos-overhaul/p1
    Also I think these two threads should be merged with this one because they are essentially the same, the OP is just updated according to the discussion from all 3 I think. Mind as well put the OP in context.

    What do you think?
    @ChaosDragonBorn
    @BillyRuffian
    @dge1

    I don't mind. The original posts are updated with this one just in case.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,367Registered Users
    Is anyone really expecting CA to make any sort affirmative or dismissve statement on suggestions made? Because then I'd advise them to look up copyright law and how doing so could bite them in the rear quite easily.

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    KGpoopy said:

    Does CA even look at feedback anymore? I think this should be moved to general.


    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/193724/warriors-of-chaos-campaign-redone/p1
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/189182/warriors-of-chaos-overhaul/p1
    Also I think these two threads should be merged with this one because they are essentially the same, the OP is just updated according to the discussion from all 3 I think. Mind as well put the OP in context.

    What do you think?
    @ChaosDragonBorn
    @BillyRuffian
    @dge1

    I don't mind. The original posts are updated with this one just in case.
    You don't mind the devs saying anything or the threads being combined? :p
    ..by the way a dev liked the op. That's two devs now that like the suggestions.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,138Registered Users



    Well the first step to making something great is by stripping it of everything that objectively makes it bad. Norscans constantly fighting each other and even betraying you, the Chaos player, after awakening them is bad. Get rid of that problem and then add something more to make it fun.

    Make norscan tribes ONLY when subjugated to totally obey the Chaos player. If the player just awakens the tribes and not subjugate then tribes can have their "own" diplomacy.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,367Registered Users
    Having a bunch of factions do your bidding and being always at peace with each other is what made the Sassanid campaign in TWA so boring.

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    Having a bunch of factions do your bidding and being always at peace with each other is what made the Sassanid campaign in TWA so boring.

    Got to play a Sassanid campaign to confirm that. But I don't think anyone is suggesting norsca be under subjection to chaos in start position. That's not fair. After awakening they should be vassalized. It's not right to then attack them after becoming military allies just to vassalize. Because that most likely results in non cooperation.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,198Registered Users
    I think Norsca being subject to the player as WoC can work. It just can't work under current circumstances for obvious reasons.
    If they're too powerful like how they are now then they make the game very easy because super stacks will literally do most of the work for you; AI Archaeon gets it easy because the faction spawns not only with stacks of good units, but also heroes all over the map!
    Make them too weak and best buddies and they will just be passive and not contribute to the WoC campaign experience.
    IMO part of the problem with Norsca as WoC is that, if they are not fighting eachother, you practically have nothing to do with them. Would an enemy army try to attack their settlements? Not likely because they are busy fighting eachother, the lands are far away, and other Norsca are doing the same thing.

    Hell it seems the best way to make subjugated Norsca interesting would be to make them horde factions so their survival will depend on you helping them out. But that's neither lore friendly nor something the AI can handle, and certainly not remotely close to how the game is designed. CA certainly won't do all this for a DLC faction.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,367Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    Having a bunch of factions do your bidding and being always at peace with each other is what made the Sassanid campaign in TWA so boring.

    Got to play a Sassanid campaign to confirm that. But I don't think anyone is suggesting norsca be under subjection to chaos in start position. That's not fair. After awakening they should be vassalized. It's not right to then attack them after becoming military allies just to vassalize. Because that most likely results in non cooperation.
    They introduced the White Huns to spawn in the Sassanids backyard in TWA because the Sassanid dominance was so rampant and always waltzed over the rest of the map. The reason was that the Sassanids and their vassals had a near unbreakable alliance and could spam more armies than a unified large faction. In TWWH that would be even worse because it's barely possible for the other factions to invade Norsca back due to the high chaos attrition and the inability to capture their settlements.

  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    Norscan vassals and allies more often than not break the alliance/vassal status once you declare war on someone. You can't demand money from them. War coordination is unreliable at the best of times. Can't even get a peace agreement when they actually like you. The whole March through their lands is honestly a waste of time. The only real benefit of wiping them all out is so they don't go and sack or raze all those juicy human before you get to them.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,138Registered Users
    @Combat_Wombat also norsca offers fast raze settlements to fast horde upgrade.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,138Registered Users
    I would like a Chaos story campaign like BM and WE have.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users

    I would like a Chaos story campaign like BM and WE have.

    Those mini campaigns may be lame but I'll be damned if Chaos remains the only DLC faction with half the features of the others. There is little to no consistency coming from CA about DLC factions.

    @Combat_Wombat also norsca offers fast raze settlements to fast horde upgrade.

    True but you can just as easily head south on turn 3 with chaos warriors and completely tear your way through to Altdorf. Bring Kholek and walls become trivial.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited July 2017
    Just to note as of now I have not played TWwarhammer in a while. But I have noticed what seems a change, because I didn't notice this before.

    But since when did Chosen have Juggernaut and Superhuman Vigor? Edit: No I'm almost sure it is the new mod I'm using called Steel Faith that gave them that. I installed the mod and then forgot it was there while I was busy, came back to the game yesterday and realized that this is actually a good idea.

    Superhuman Vigor: This unit has tremendous endurance, allowing it to resist fatigue from movement and combat throughout the battle.

    Juggernaut: This unit has high resistance to hit reactions and knock-back resistance, allowing it to attack unimpeded.

    I think that's a great idea for Chosen, and it's well done by Steel Faith community.

    What do you guys think?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,367Registered Users
    edited July 2017
    As I said in another thread, Chosen should emulate their TT counterparts and start with a random divine blessing which might include higher stats or beneficial traits (like immune to pych, poisounous, unbreakable or whatever), but it should vary from unit to unit . Just giving them a flat, standardized buff isn't doing them justice as beyond that blessing they were barely better than regular Chaos Warriors in the TT.

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    Yeah they should have their specific blessings, that turn them into the monsters they are on TT. I believe the Warshrine gave you the option to choose different blessings in accord with the 4 dark gods.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,198Registered Users

    re
    Superhuman Vigor and Juggernaut
    What do you guys think?

    I think Chosen as-is seem fine. Refresh my memory, what's so bad about them?

    I side with Ephraim with this one; if they have a set of random bonuses called Divine Blessing that is dicerolled every game, it might make for some interesting variety. Although I'm not a fan of too much RNG elements in a strategy game, so the blessings might have to be so small it's almost trivial, else you risk making a game where the right "chance" blessings per battle can alter the outcome of a fight....and then people either quicksave to retry for reroll or they complain.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    daelin4 said:

    re
    Superhuman Vigor and Juggernaut
    What do you guys think?

    I think Chosen as-is seem fine. Refresh my memory, what's so bad about them?

    uuhhhh nothing.

    I just wanted to know people's opinion on it, because I see lot of criticisms that Chosen are weak.
    Just thought this might be a well liked idea, becasue it doesn't give boring stat boost. It modifies their abilties. It's gives them two added traits that make them terrifying as they should be.

    Other than that, I don't know, just want people's thoughts :smile:
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,367Registered Users
    In campaign Chosen should simply come with a certain blessing upon recruitment. In MP/custom they player should be given the ability to pick sets of them which would at once make Chosen more worthwhile to bring and make WoC less predictable in a fight if these blessing can vary a lot.

  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    Would still like to see either a large leadership buff or immunity to psychology for Chosen and most of the Chaos be roster. They come from the scariest f+cking place on the planet but an army of wimpy skeletons is enough to cause make Chosen do that annoying thing where they run away and eventually come back but run again before they even get into combat.

    Would like to see immunity to vigor on them as well. Ever since the Bretonnia FLC came in with that it would only make sense for Chosen to have it. Aren't they forever encased in a set of armor that makes it so they need not eat drink or sleep? No break in the slaughter except for the time it takes to walk from one city to another?

    Could we for once get some units in the chaos roster that are actually strong for their price?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,367Registered Users

    Would still like to see either a large leadership buff or immunity to psychology for Chosen and most of the Chaos be roster. They come from the scariest f+cking place on the planet but an army of wimpy skeletons is enough to cause make Chosen do that annoying thing where they run away and eventually come back but run again before they even get into combat.

    Would like to see immunity to vigor on them as well. Ever since the Bretonnia FLC came in with that it would only make sense for Chosen to have it. Aren't they forever encased in a set of armor that makes it so they need not eat drink or sleep? No break in the slaughter except for the time it takes to walk from one city to another?

    Could we for once get some units in the chaos roster that are actually strong for their price?

    If you just make them Chaos Warriors+ you'll just make them boring. They should be closer to their TT counterparts.

  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,138Registered Users
    edited July 2017
    @ChaosDragonBorn I like your proposition.
    @Combat_Wombat well said.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users

    Would still like to see either a large leadership buff or immunity to psychology for Chosen and most of the Chaos be roster. They come from the scariest f+cking place on the planet but an army of wimpy skeletons is enough to cause make Chosen do that annoying thing where they run away and eventually come back but run again before they even get into combat.

    Would like to see immunity to vigor on them as well. Ever since the Bretonnia FLC came in with that it would only make sense for Chosen to have it. Aren't they forever encased in a set of armor that makes it so they need not eat drink or sleep? No break in the slaughter except for the time it takes to walk from one city to another?

    Could we for once get some units in the chaos roster that are actually strong for their price?

    If you just make them Chaos Warriors+ you'll just make them boring. They should be closer to their TT counterparts.
    They ARE Chaos Warriors+ right now. We're trying to make them less boring and useless. How will giving them immunity to psychology, immunity to vigor, or any other buff make them just a beefed up version of Chaos Warriors? How is making Chosen more unique somehow making them less unique? Until CA makes a new system to give Chosen their marks (which I honestly doubt will ever occur) we should give them these buffs and more.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Norsca's playstyle is basically a lightweight version of our overhaul. Read this about Norsca's Playstyle and Mechanics.
    "A Norscan campaign is one of relentless pillage and ruination. Their principle sources of income are raiding and sacking. This lends itself to a very mobile and combative playstyle – always keeping your armies on the move and often in contention with other factions. Razing settlements enables you to erect monoliths to the dark gods of Norsca… and the gods always reward the faithful!"

    "Allegiance to the gods
    When conquering a settlement, Norscan factions have a unique new post-battle option. Alongside Occupying and Looting, they may choose to Raze a settlement and erect a monolith to one of the four dark gods, who they personify as the Eagle, the Crow, the Serpent and the Hound. The more monoliths that are erected, the more favour the gods bestow. Rewards are granted in the form of increasingly powerful campaign and battle bonuses and, in certain cases, unique units or characters.
    "

    "Outposts
    Marauder Outposts can be established in conquered coastal settlements outside of Norsca. These provide basic recruitment options and act as handy replenishment-stops for your marauding armies. Securing major faction capitals outside Norsca – such as Altdorf, Castle Drakenhof and so on – allows you to build fully-developed Norscan settlements. Ownership of these cities also enables you to plunder the secrets of their original owners, unlocking unique new technologies to research
    ."

    That's pretty cool huh?

    But look at our version lol. It's more of a challenge, and a little more complex, but still doable.
    Norsca's playstyle could have us looking into the future of a Chaos campaign, because as you can see, it's doable. I think EVERYONE would enjoy it because of how refreshing the challenge is. The new chaos campaign coupled with the SlaughterBrute, VortexBeast, and Chaos Warshrine would be perfect.

    All CA has to do is commit some dev time to it.

    But the elephant in the room..., that this very much hoped for update (that seemingly more people outside this forum expect for some reason) is free. We all know the DLC policy, (No dlc for dlc). So no matter how much we want to, we can't pay CA for this, and that means CA has no real obligation to do something like this other than their own willingness to satisfy that certain feedback. And not all Devs will be in agreement unfortunately to do all this for free. I'm talking everything from the units to the new playstyle and mechanics, which is no small matter, as you can see in the OP. This, is why I have doubts.

    I really hope CA could commit dev time on the WoC while working on Game 3. That would be a really great time to re-brand Chaos in general and a free update to Chaos(WoC) along side, or around the release of Game 3 would do wonders for PR, as it should.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,138Registered Users
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,367Registered Users

    Would still like to see either a large leadership buff or immunity to psychology for Chosen and most of the Chaos be roster. They come from the scariest f+cking place on the planet but an army of wimpy skeletons is enough to cause make Chosen do that annoying thing where they run away and eventually come back but run again before they even get into combat.

    Would like to see immunity to vigor on them as well. Ever since the Bretonnia FLC came in with that it would only make sense for Chosen to have it. Aren't they forever encased in a set of armor that makes it so they need not eat drink or sleep? No break in the slaughter except for the time it takes to walk from one city to another?

    Could we for once get some units in the chaos roster that are actually strong for their price?

    If you just make them Chaos Warriors+ you'll just make them boring. They should be closer to their TT counterparts.
    They ARE Chaos Warriors+ right now. We're trying to make them less boring and useless. How will giving them immunity to psychology, immunity to vigor, or any other buff make them just a beefed up version of Chaos Warriors? How is making Chosen more unique somehow making them less unique? Until CA makes a new system to give Chosen their marks (which I honestly doubt will ever occur) we should give them these buffs and more.
    Because in the TT they don't have all the same traits. They have all been given different blessings from the Chaos Gods, hence "Chosen". Just giving them all the same buffs is lame.

  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,198Registered Users
    Giving them the same buffs is really just Chaos Warriors ++, and hardly any less boring or useless.

    Well they won't be useless, but in the sense that Dwarf level 9 Ironbreakers recruits are not useless compared to level 0 Dwarf Warriors.

    Making a unit a straight up superior clone of another might solve the former being useless, but then makes the latter useless. That is, assuming you want a Total War game where all units have a role in an army, as opposed to RTW route where it's all about who gets Urban Cohort stacks first.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    daelin4 said:



    Making a unit a straight up superior clone of another might solve the former being useless, but then makes the latter useless. That is, assuming you want a Total War game where all units have a role in an army, as opposed to RTW route where it's all about who gets Urban Cohort stacks first.

    It's like that now. This would be a fine argument if we were comparing greatswords to halbards but Chosen literally are "straight up superior clones" of Chaos Warriors already. We can't make them something they already are. The only difference is their smaller unit size, high price, and p+ss poor cost effectiveness.

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