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These are the units I think need the most help

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  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 671Registered Users

    Pistoliers are mostly fine as they are.

    They are not a skirmish unit.
    Their melee a/d is right where it needs to be to separate them from skirmish units.

    They could use a small speed buff though, as it would help them keep pressure on routing units.
    Increase damage by 1-2 points and maybe give them a little more ammunition.

    Nah, they honestly suck in melee, and tests others have done indicate that they get beaten by other, lower tier, skirmish cav including goblin wolf riders

    You may read up on that here (this is not me doing the testing and I'm not taking credit for it I am merely sharing it):

    https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/642xml/pistoliers_suck_horribly_the_test/?st=j191e071&sh=c777da20
    see the bit where I said 'they aren't skirmish units'
    all I see is people using a unit incorrectly and then crying because it performs poorly

    Pistolier's are a harassment unit
    Harassment is not Skirmishing, the 2 activities are very different

    you can link all the videos & threads about how bad they are at skirmishing, but that is pointless
    all your doing is highlighting how many people do not know the difference between
    skirmish & harass




    what's next ... cries to buff shock cav coz they can't beat halberds with a frontal charge ??? ....
    Correcting the classification of a unit does not entitle you to make laughable/debatable comparisons.

    First : If you knew the etymology of the word skirmish you would know that skirmish // harassment.
    Pistoliers can be killed skirmish units but not ranged/fire support units.
    Second : Without the etymology, there still remains the problem that this unit cannot harass for the exact SAME
    reasons it is not a support unit (which, again, is laughable) : it has awful range, awful DPS and the unit thus
    won't fire a lot unless your opponent is as reactive as a cucumber.
    Third : The lack of DPS and ranged is closely linked to the lack of melee power : the unit is constently under the
    threat of high DPS ranged units AND infantry AND cavalry AND wolves AND flying units. You can't fire AND
    you can't retaliate in melee.

    Finally, this makes for a poor - DPS-wise and tankiness-wise - unit. It can - at best- distract your opponent a little bit.
    The outriders are better at harassing, the crossbowmen, handgunners and even the free company militias are better at dealing ranged damage, wolf riders (300 gold) destroy pistoliers in melee, wolf riders archers (350 gold) outrange, outdps, outmelee the pistoliers by far, not to mention the yeomen archers or norscan mounted units.

    Pistoliers don't have any fonction, are 200% weaker than the equivalent in the other rosters (for half the price sometimes).
    If you have an enlightened strategy that shows that pistoliers truly have their place in the roster (which is what we are discussing about...), then feel free to share your ligh enlightenment with us fool.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • deckermdeckerm Posts: 149Registered Users
    I think he's trolling, just ignore him.
  • JastallJastall Junior Member Posts: 993Registered Users

    Pistoliers are mostly fine as they are.

    They are not a skirmish unit.
    Their melee a/d is right where it needs to be to separate them from skirmish units.

    They could use a small speed buff though, as it would help them keep pressure on routing units.
    Increase damage by 1-2 points and maybe give them a little more ammunition.

    Fine? They lose to anything better than Crossbowmen in melee (and xbows beat them if they can fire beforehand!). This includes stuff they should by all rights counter, like Quarrelers and Wolf Rider archers. There's basically nothing they can outshoot either, even marauder Horsemen or those same Wolf Rider archers demolish them in ranged combat.

    It's the one unit in the game that I dismiss as totally useless. Even underperforming stuff like vanilla Corpse Cart or Irondrakes can still be useful in some situations, and Irondrakes are pretty good in campaign to boot. There is only a very small handful of situations where Pistoliers are not a total waste of your time, in campaign and multiplayer both. It's just a horrible unit all around. Even at 350 cost it would still suck.
  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 3,572Registered Users
    skir·mish
    ˈskərmiSH/
    noun
    noun: skirmish; plural noun: skirmishes
    1.
    an episode of irregular or unpremeditated fighting, especially between small or outlying parts of armies or fleets.
    ---
    skirmisher
    Definition:
    someone who skirmishes (for example, as a member of a scouting party)
    ---


    Pistoliers are unquestionably skirmisher units and one of their best use cases is supporting melee cavalry. But they do lose to other skirmishers and so they are only really a support unit.

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,981Registered Users
    edited May 2017

    All you have to do is remove halbadiers from the honest steel skill. Then tweak the emperor's finest skill by replacing the charge bonus % with either melee defense or armor.

    Lol. The most common type of Empire state trooper can't benefit from a skill buffing state troopers...

    No, leave Honest Steel as it is and just buff Emperor's Finest - we don't want one useless unit to replace another...
    The emperors finest skill would apply to halbadiers.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,981Registered Users
    edited May 2017
    Jastall said:

    Pistoliers are mostly fine as they are.

    They are not a skirmish unit.
    Their melee a/d is right where it needs to be to separate them from skirmish units.

    They could use a small speed buff though, as it would help them keep pressure on routing units.
    Increase damage by 1-2 points and maybe give them a little more ammunition.

    Fine? They lose to anything better than Crossbowmen in melee (and xbows beat them if they can fire beforehand!). This includes stuff they should by all rights counter, like Quarrelers and Wolf Rider archers. There's basically nothing they can outshoot either, even marauder Horsemen or those same Wolf Rider archers demolish them in ranged combat.

    It's the one unit in the game that I dismiss as totally useless. Even underperforming stuff like vanilla Corpse Cart or Irondrakes can still be useful in some situations, and Irondrakes are pretty good in campaign to boot. There is only a very small handful of situations where Pistoliers are not a total waste of your time, in campaign and multiplayer both. It's just a horrible unit all around. Even at 350 cost it would still suck.
    Pistoliers need a range increase to at least 70 or at most 90. But they cant be allowed to be too good otherwise they will diminish the value of outriders and free company militia.

    They are actually on par in terms of missile damage and unit count with other missile cavalry options of other factions. Missile cavalry though should never be used to counter missile infantry options due to the unit count difference.
    Post edited by Mogwai_Man on
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Posts: 1,613Registered Users

    Jastall said:

    Pistoliers are mostly fine as they are.

    They are not a skirmish unit.
    Their melee a/d is right where it needs to be to separate them from skirmish units.

    They could use a small speed buff though, as it would help them keep pressure on routing units.
    Increase damage by 1-2 points and maybe give them a little more ammunition.

    Fine? They lose to anything better than Crossbowmen in melee (and xbows beat them if they can fire beforehand!). This includes stuff they should by all rights counter, like Quarrelers and Wolf Rider archers. There's basically nothing they can outshoot either, even marauder Horsemen or those same Wolf Rider archers demolish them in ranged combat.

    It's the one unit in the game that I dismiss as totally useless. Even underperforming stuff like vanilla Corpse Cart or Irondrakes can still be useful in some situations, and Irondrakes are pretty good in campaign to boot. There is only a very small handful of situations where Pistoliers are not a total waste of your time, in campaign and multiplayer both. It's just a horrible unit all around. Even at 350 cost it would still suck.
    Pistoliers need a range increase to 90. But they cant be allowed to be too good otherwise they will make outriders obsolete. Its a delicate balance.
    No, because outriders have Armour piercing, and costing only 100 more, they are still better value.
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • RodentofDoomRodentofDoom Posts: 537Registered Users
    They are situational, with a very niche role.

    Your opinion is that that role is too restrictive, mine is not.


    @Emptythought/Deckerm
    Resorting to personal attacks and unfounded insults within a debate is a very poor characteristic, please refrain from further instances.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Posts: 3,843Registered Users

    They are situational, with a very niche role.

    Your opinion is that that role is too restrictive, mine is not.


    @Emptythought/Deckerm
    Resorting to personal attacks and unfounded insults within a debate is a very poor characteristic, please refrain from further instances.

    Pistoliers are god awful dude. In Multi you have no reason to bring them, and in campaign you can't trust them to do anything more than run over goblin archers which is a role they still struggle with. Their missile damage is also ridiculously low. Also, do note that Pistoliers were not all that bad at melee in the TT, they were pretty fair, while here once their charge is done they have zombie tier stats. Pistoliers should be harrassers, and part of that harrassment should be the ability to strike at ranged units quickly while shooting decent AP damage on the charge, striking on the weak flanks of the enemy and when they respond being able to shoot back at any pursuers while they flee away. Right now they can't be trusted to take on most archers head on, and can't do anything after that.
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    edited May 2017
    This. Rodent, you are entitled to your opinion, but it will be a vastly outnumbered opinion because it isn't based on anything other than an attempt to be contrarian.

    Pistoliers have horrible melee stats, very short range and the lowest possible AP damage. Goblin wolf rider archers have a similar statline and better range for 350 (less missile dmg but more models and did I mention range).
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • AsamuAsamu Posts: 593Registered Users
    edited May 2017

    Pistoliers are mostly fine as they are.

    They are not a skirmish unit.
    Their melee a/d is right where it needs to be to separate them from skirmish units.

    They could use a small speed buff though, as it would help them keep pressure on routing units.
    Increase damage by 1-2 points and maybe give them a little more ammunition.

    Nah, they honestly suck in melee, and tests others have done indicate that they get beaten by other, lower tier, skirmish cav including goblin wolf riders

    You may read up on that here (this is not me doing the testing and I'm not taking credit for it I am merely sharing it):

    https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/642xml/pistoliers_suck_horribly_the_test/?st=j191e071&sh=c777da20
    see the bit where I said 'they aren't skirmish units'
    all I see is people using a unit incorrectly and then crying because it performs poorly

    Pistolier's are a harassment unit
    Harassment is not Skirmishing, the 2 activities are very different

    you can link all the videos & threads about how bad they are at skirmishing, but that is pointless
    all your doing is highlighting how many people do not know the difference between
    skirmish & harass




    what's next ... cries to buff shock cav coz they can't beat halberds with a frontal charge ??? ....
    The comparison is to units that do the exact same things as Pistoliers but better for lower cost. How the unit is used doesn't come into that comparison because it doesn't need to; the units fill the same roles in any sort of practical sense. There's no value in "harassment" when the harassing unit is not paying for itself in some way. The opponent can just ignore the pistoliers or kill them with any ranged unit.

    And in this game, skirmish and harass are pretty much the same thing (Skirmish can include some exchanging fire with the enemy, where harassment avoids taking enemy fire as much as possible, but all of the compared units are capable of doing that as well as pistoliers, some better, and some a bit worse). There isn't a difference in how marauder cav and pistoliers should be used, because they do the same things as short-mid ranged missile cav. People aren't expecting pistoliers to be able to take on ranged infantry in a shoot out. That would be ridiculous, but pistoliers should be comparable with other units of the same role/type.

    What, in your mind, is the difference in role between pistoliers and other missile cav? How should they be used differently?

    They don't need to be faster to keep pressure on routing units; they can already do that just fine. You know what does that even better? Wolf riders, because they are significantly cheaper than pistoliers, so they don't take as much out of the main line.
  • BabarigoBabarigo Posts: 11Registered Users
    edited May 2017

    They are situational, with a very niche role.

    Your opinion is that that role is too restrictive, mine is not.


    @Emptythought/Deckerm
    Resorting to personal attacks and unfounded insults within a debate is a very poor characteristic, please refrain from further instances.

    Pistoliers are good against low armor targets but they have very low armor and range wihich makes them a terrible choice against factions with lots of skirmishers or with high armor.
    The only faction that doesn't enter in one of those 2 categories are the Vampire Counts.
    So now let's see what are the good targets for the pistoliers:

    - Monster units like Crypt Horrors. They have low armor and are quite expensive. A perfect target for Pistoliers. The problem is that since monster are bigger than other units your Crossbowmen and Handgunners can shoot them easily and they will deal much more damage than the Pistoliers.
    Don't talk me about the Vargheist or the Fell Bats. The AI always uses them to charge the missile units. Just focus fire them with your missile unit and prepare a spearmen and a cavalry unit if they somehow managed to survive and are going to land.

    - Next unit the Direwolves. Pistoliers are faster and will kill them easily. The problem is that the empire cavalry destroys them. A single Empire Knights can kill 2 units of Direwolves with less than 5 unit model losses. After that the Empire Knights will be able to rear charge enemy lines and kill way more units than Pistoliers.

    -Last use, going behind the lines and shooting units in the back. With the Pistoliers you can kill the Skeletons and the Zombies. For 100 gold more you can take Outriders and kill Grave Guards. The most cost effective choice is taking the Outriders.

    The core army of the Empire can fulfill better the tasks that the Pistoliers can do. The only thing that the Empire core army can't do is shooting enemy engaged units in the back but for this task the Outriders will be better.

    Even in a matchup where the Pistoliers are supposed to be good they are outclassed by other units. There is no reason to bring them, that's why you never see them in mp other than for trolling.

    P.S. I made a quick test. I charged on the rear a unit of Cossbowmen with Pistoliers without taking crossbow damage and the Pistoliers still lost while the Goblin Wolf Archers that cost 350 gold destroyed the Crossbowmen. Pistoliers are trully laughably bad.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,981Registered Users
    edited May 2017
    In my opinion its just a matter of giving them a range increase. Pistoliers unit count is 45 and their missile damage is 33. That isn't bad compared to other tier 1 missile cav options, where they are hampered is range. Even free company militia get a range of 90.
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 452Registered Users
    edited May 2017

    In my opinion its just a matter of giving them a range increase. Pistoliers unit count is 45 and their missile damage is 33. That isn't bad compared to other tier 1 missile cav options, they are where they are hampered is range. Even free company militia get a range of 90.

    Yup, you are definitely right. Their range sucks, but for 500 gold, an increase in non-AP damage wouldn't be bad either.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,485Registered Users
    I actually find the master engineer to be pretty solid. You could make an argument that runesmiths are more essential, but master engineers fight pretty well, shoot nicely situationally (though you have to enter melee once obstructed), and have combat support runes that actually are pretty nice for supporting nearby melee unit battles.

    The reload/accuracy stuff is nice situationally if you know you're up against a shooty enemy like empire and want to outgun them on the cheap. But i actually don't primarily use them for that.

    Agree they should have smokebombs though as a counter to chariots.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    I actually find the master engineer to be pretty solid. You could make an argument that runesmiths are more essential, but master engineers fight pretty well, shoot nicely situationally (though you have to enter melee once obstructed), and have combat support runes that actually are pretty nice for supporting nearby melee unit battles.

    The reload/accuracy stuff is nice situationally if you know you're up against a shooty enemy like empire and want to outgun them on the cheap. But i actually don't primarily use them for that.

    Agree they should have smokebombs though as a counter to chariots.

    His runes need a bit of a buff.
  • xcountrycolin@yahoo.com[email protected] Posts: 17Registered Users

    All you have to do is remove halbadiers from the honest steel skill. Then tweak the emperor's finest skill by replacing the charge bonus % with either melee defense or armor.

    Lol. The most common type of Empire state trooper can't benefit from a skill buffing state troopers...

    No, leave Honest Steel as it is and just buff Emperor's Finest - we don't want one useless unit to replace another...
    The emperors finest skill would apply to halbadiers.
    Why it seems you are getting the right idea of why Empire Greatswords need a buff in the campaign this suggestion would be a little silly.

    I mean while Empire Halberdiers are an awesome infantry unit especially in the singleplayer campaign they are still basic Empire State Troopers, and are not necessarily an elite unit.

    Halberdiers should just stay attached to the Honest Steel skill while the Emperor's Finest skill is simply buffed to do the same thing as the Honest Steel skill for greatswords.

    I mean greatswords are the ONLY heavy infantry/shock infantry unit for the Empire, and they definitely could use a little love. Especially since they went from being the equivalent of what dismounted Demigryph Knights might have felt like in the singleplayer campaign to being outclassed by normal state troopers in everything.
  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Posts: 1,496Registered Users
    yeah, greatsword have been overnerfed ridiculously. I've been saying that since the first nerf arrived, making them a niche unit at best, then the 2nd nerf arrived, bringing them to the same usefulness level as pistoleers. basicly all they do will be done better by other units in the roster.

    frankly nobody cared, because people were just upset to fight empire too often in multiplayer, hyberboling their powerlevel. the logic behind it being: a faction that is played alot clearly means its OP in the eyes of competitive players. yet the statistics we received later stated the opposite, it was by far not as succesful in mp, its just the most popular faction by a landslide


    whatever, mp is almost dead compared to those times, and I play with mods now.


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,276Registered Users
    Except greatswords should be niche, using elite heavy infantry shouldn't be a non niche pick that makes it an auto include...
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • xcountrycolin@yahoo.com[email protected] Posts: 17Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Except greatswords should be niche, using elite heavy infantry shouldn't be a non niche pick that makes it an auto include...

    Not saying that I believe greatswords were nerfed, or anything of the sort but greatswords should definitely NOT be a niche unit that logic is ridiculous. Their purpose was to serve as the Empire's elite heavy infantry unit if you read in the lore the best of the best state troopers would join the greatswords.

    They should be the old guard unit for Empire forces by being their ONLY expensive heavy shock, and awe infantry unit that excels in close combat. Not saying they should be able to take on Black Orcs but come on buddy...

    As long as they are fixed in singleplayer campaign though I really will not care as much for multiplayer.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,276Registered Users
    edited May 2017
    Lore isn't really the best way of basis for balancing anyways tho. I was annoyed at first about how wild riders don't slaughter anything they charge on the flank but really, they're still very good cav overall even if the lore says otherwise...

    As a side note greatswords certainly aren't nearly as bad as "niche" makes them out to be. Hawk riders are niche, greatswords...... Nowhere near that

    Also I'm talking about MP exclusively pretty much

    In terms of sp fix the tech tree and call it done for all I care
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    you see great amount of greatsowrds both in sp and mp and they are where they should be....just use wide formations

    stop spreading misinformation they are not an auto pick anymore thats about it

    Balance Is A Lie

  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    They need a tech tree buff in SP so that mid-late game halberds aren't fulfilling the elite inf role better than greatswords. And yeah, they're fine in MP.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • StarConquestStarConquest Posts: 3Registered Users
    Speaking as an Empire player, I can agree with all but the Hellblaster Rocket. This thing is a beast when used right. Bring flagellants with it, and tie up enemy cannon fodder units w/ low armor, then bomb the horde that is dealing with your suicide troopers. It will destroy the enemy formation, route quite a few enemy units [they will return though], and do massive damage. I recently fought a battle with orks. I chose to bring the Sunbringer or whatever, and it worked wonders, [though 2x regulars could have done a little better for only 1.5x the cost]. The ork army, full of savage orks [I had unfortunately brought AP to this fight], was disrupted by my flaggelants. Their savage orks were all brought down to half or lower before they could arrive. With another cannon eliminating their giants, by the time the orks arrived they were shattered. Despite my general being sniped by spirit leach, when the savage orks walked into my 4 handgunners, they took quite a beating and a few more routed. By the time they reached my greatswords, they were hardly a threat, so despite having a leadership penalty, I easily won the fight from that point, being fresh, full, and in formation.
  • xcountrycolin@yahoo.com[email protected] Posts: 17Registered Users

    you see great amount of greatsowrds both in sp and mp and they are where they should be....just use wide formations

    stop spreading misinformation they are not an auto pick anymore thats about it

    I would temper that retort because I never was talking about multiplayer at all if you thoroughly read through my post. I was complaining that Greatswords are trash in campaign in comparison to Halberdiers due to the skill tree buffs.

    I think they are fine in multiplayer so I do not know what you are getting at...

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,276Registered Users
    That's our point. We agree after all, fix the tech trees... And done.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users

    you see great amount of greatsowrds both in sp and mp and they are where they should be....just use wide formations

    stop spreading misinformation they are not an auto pick anymore thats about it

    I would temper that retort because I never was talking about multiplayer at all if you thoroughly read through my post. I was complaining that Greatswords are trash in campaign in comparison to Halberdiers due to the skill tree buffs.

    I think they are fine in multiplayer so I do not know what you are getting at...

    i was refering to @Lord_Nathanael

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Posts: 1,496Registered Users

    you see great amount of greatsowrds both in sp and mp and they are where they should be....just use wide formations

    stop spreading misinformation they are not an auto pick anymore thats about it

    I would temper that retort because I never was talking about multiplayer at all if you thoroughly read through my post. I was complaining that Greatswords are trash in campaign in comparison to Halberdiers due to the skill tree buffs.

    I think they are fine in multiplayer so I do not know what you are getting at...

    i was refering to @Lord_Nathanael
    and as you can see in my post, I refered to their campaign performance aswell.
    the only time I mentioned non campaign mp was my salty attempt of finding reasoning behind the nerfs that put greatswords behind halberdiers in performance against any type of infantry.

    fix the techs, skill trees for all I care (this is important for campaign mp, in solo game I just use mods)


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users

    you see great amount of greatsowrds both in sp and mp and they are where they should be....just use wide formations

    stop spreading misinformation they are not an auto pick anymore thats about it

    I would temper that retort because I never was talking about multiplayer at all if you thoroughly read through my post. I was complaining that Greatswords are trash in campaign in comparison to Halberdiers due to the skill tree buffs.

    I think they are fine in multiplayer so I do not know what you are getting at...

    i was refering to @Lord_Nathanael
    and as you can see in my post, I refered to their campaign performance aswell.
    the only time I mentioned non campaign mp was my salty attempt of finding reasoning behind the nerfs that put greatswords behind halberdiers in performance against any type of infantry.

    fix the techs, skill trees for all I care (this is important for campaign mp, in solo game I just use mods)
    ok sure

    Balance Is A Lie

  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Posts: 1,613Registered Users

    you see great amount of greatsowrds both in sp and mp and they are where they should be....just use wide formations

    stop spreading misinformation they are not an auto pick anymore thats about it

    I would temper that retort because I never was talking about multiplayer at all if you thoroughly read through my post. I was complaining that Greatswords are trash in campaign in comparison to Halberdiers due to the skill tree buffs.

    I think they are fine in multiplayer so I do not know what you are getting at...

    i was refering to @Lord_Nathanael
    and as you can see in my post, I refered to their campaign performance aswell.
    the only time I mentioned non campaign mp was my salty attempt of finding reasoning behind the nerfs that put greatswords behind halberdiers in performance against any type of infantry.

    fix the techs, skill trees for all I care (this is important for campaign mp, in solo game I just use mods)
    Yes, I want to be able to use GS in campaign over halberds.!
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
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