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Why I Think Tzeentch Is The Most Evil Chaos God

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  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 903

    i disagree here: he want's a LOT of it... and a lot of small bits of violence... well... they gain less by the small acts of violence but they still gain a bit iirc

    This was definitely true in the original Realms of Chaos books; I'm not sure whether it's still considered canon (newer army books mention only Chaos Warriors) but the Liber Chaotica books for 6e also supported this view:

    From The Lost and the Damned, pg. 7:

    "The traits which characterise the Chaos Powers are insanity, violence, ambition, greed and others which are often felt to typify the worst of human nature. But this is not wholly the case, and Chaos Powers also exist which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics. Indeed, no Chaos Power is wholly one-sided, for no human or other creature is wholly good or evil, and likewise neither are their shadow-selves."

    And from pg. 9:

    "As the energies of the Chaos Powers are used up to create daemons and conduct their affairs, they need to be constantly replenished. It is therefore in the Power's interests to promote the character traits he embodies among mortal men. Thus, all warriors no matter what their conscious feelings, are contributing at least a little of themselves to the body of Khorne. This contribution is all the greater if the warrior is a devotee of Khorne, and especially if he is a Champion of Khorne."
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,444
    edited April 2017
    Krilral said:

    Tayvar said:

    @thesniperdevil and @Krilral actually you both not correct, it's clearly said that "Khorne does not care whence the blood flows, only that it does", and in the Blood for the Blood God Trailer you can hear about it too. You don't need to serve the Chaos Gods to empower them and to be influenced by them, the Chaos Gods get power from things that associated with them in any case, that's one of the main reasons for why the Chaos Gods are the Most Powerful Gods in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as they are not requires direct worship, unlike the Other Gods. To empower the Chaos Gods less, a man needs to avoid unnecessary violence, and being sexully conservative helps too, and it's looks like the Empire and Bretonnia tends to be an very conservative societies. Worshiping the Chaos Gods usually means to take those things to extreme and to the most evil form of it, and the Chaos Gods tend to get more power from it.

    I didn't say that you had to actively serve the chaos gods to empower them. Only that you do not empower them through miniscule acts. Khorne does indeed not care why gallons of blood are spilt, boes he does care that gallons of blood are spilt. Khorne is a god of wholesale slaugther and epic duels, not of bludgeoning an animal to death in self defense. You said this yourself: "avoid unnecessary violence".
    I think that you are missing the point, as both @Stormspirit88 and @TheGuardianOfMetal told you too, Khorne get Power from an act of violence that involve blood being spilled, not matter if it's for an "good" reason or for an bad reason. Khorne would get less power from an "sensible" violence and/or it's simple the fact that avoiding an unnecessary violence usually means less violence, but is getting power from any killing, killing tend to be an "evil" thing by definition, even killing for meat, ask vegetarians about it. To kill only when you have to, is an 'necessary evil' more then it an "good thing", and Khorne get power from 'necessary evil' as well, simply less then he get from mindless killing. An pacifist vegetarian is someone who don't give Khorne almost any power. Giving Khorne less power is about doing less evil, doing no evil at all, is hard, especially for those who live an a very violent world, like the Warhammer World. That's also one of the reasons for why Khorne is the Most Mighty Chaos God, as the Warhammer World is very violent.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Registered Users Posts: 2,009
    Good points. I think Slaanesh is a close second.
  • Warboss2001Warboss2001 Registered Users Posts: 664
    Meh Gork n Mork will smash em all
    I am the best Warboss there is WAAAGH
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,910
    edited April 2017
    I think it is fairly hard to say any of them are more objectively evil. As in, no matter how you look at it, this one is 100% objectively worse than all the rest.
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  • RiddlebickRiddlebick Registered Users Posts: 254
    Interesting topic!

    Im not a story expert, but I think the answer is closer than we might think.


    I think we might confuse attraction to evil with evil itself.

    You can either seek for the affection of a chaos god.
    Might, Hope, Satisfaction, Change.

    Or get slowly devoured by it unknowingly.
    Rage, Disease, Pleasure, Knowledge.

    Neither have to be evil, but can be seen as a root. .. Or a transition stage, if hopelessness is its root.

    Who hasn't found oneself in a hopeless situation and starts raging?
    Who didn't think he should eat that last piece of whatever, cause next days will be stressfull enough to care about restriction?

    Weakness, lack of unity, addiction, curiosity and thousand other things create a hole.
    You will automatically seek for fullfillment. Or better, an easy way to cope with the problem.

    Weakness becomes envy, envy becomes rage, rage becomes violence, violence takes blood ... nothing left to envy.

    Now, Chaos.
    Chaos understands how you feel. Chaos shows you a way.
    Not in walking the hard way to remove its cause, but accept its origin.

    They are the very essence of evil. Giving us what we want most.
    Luring us into a vicious circle with no escape.

    Some seek it by themselfs, some find it without knowing.

    And it feels so good. ...

    But it will spread .. corrupt your mind .. till there's nothing else, . . but Chaos.
    :#
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,910
    Khorne can also represent protecting those who cannot protect themselves.
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  • KrilralKrilral Member Registered Users Posts: 910
    Tayvar said:

    Krilral said:

    Tayvar said:

    @thesniperdevil and @Krilral actually you both not correct, it's clearly said that "Khorne does not care whence the blood flows, only that it does", and in the Blood for the Blood God Trailer you can hear about it too. You don't need to serve the Chaos Gods to empower them and to be influenced by them, the Chaos Gods get power from things that associated with them in any case, that's one of the main reasons for why the Chaos Gods are the Most Powerful Gods in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as they are not requires direct worship, unlike the Other Gods. To empower the Chaos Gods less, a man needs to avoid unnecessary violence, and being sexully conservative helps too, and it's looks like the Empire and Bretonnia tends to be an very conservative societies. Worshiping the Chaos Gods usually means to take those things to extreme and to the most evil form of it, and the Chaos Gods tend to get more power from it.

    I didn't say that you had to actively serve the chaos gods to empower them. Only that you do not empower them through miniscule acts. Khorne does indeed not care why gallons of blood are spilt, boes he does care that gallons of blood are spilt. Khorne is a god of wholesale slaugther and epic duels, not of bludgeoning an animal to death in self defense. You said this yourself: "avoid unnecessary violence".
    I think that you are missing the point, as both @Stormspirit88 and @TheGuardianOfMetal told you too, Khorne get Power from an act of violence that involve blood being spilled, not matter if it's for an "good" reason or for an bad reason. Khorne would get less power from an "sensible" violence and/or it's simple the fact that avoiding an unnecessary violence usually means less violence, but is getting power from any killing, killing tend to be an "evil" thing by definition, even killing for meat, ask vegetarians about it. To kill only when you have to, is an 'necessary evil' more then it an "good thing", and Khorne get power from 'necessary evil' as well, simply less then he get from mindless killing. An pacifist vegetarian is someone who don't give Khorne almost any power. Giving Khorne less power is about doing less evil, doing no evil at all, is hard, especially for those who live an a very violent world, like the Warhammer World. That's also one of the reasons for why Khorne is the Most Mighty Chaos God, as the Warhammer World is very violent.
    Nope, I understand your point perfectly. We just disagree on how "big" your actions need to be in order to "feed" the Chaos gods. And it's obvious the chaos gods do have some preferences. We have some fairly clear lore on their actions and personalities that aligns them with certain ways of thinking. And from that it's clear that the chaos gods are extreme. Neither they, their followers or their demons ever take any pleasure from the little things. They always go all out. And besides, it's obvious the chaos gods are meant to be the classic evil fantasy "dark gods" of death-metal. I mean, they ended the damn world in the end.
    Canuovea said:

    Khorne can also represent protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

    I rather doubt that. Khorne holds nothing but comtempt for the weak. In the eyes of Khorne, if you cannot defend yourself, you deserve what you get.
  • GoslingGosling Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,887
    Canuovea said:

    Khorne can also represent protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

    Um. Who?

    Might makes right utterly in the eyes of Khorne. The strong survive, the weak perish.
    "I'm gonna stomp 'em to dust. I'm gonna grind their bones. I'm gonna burn down dere towns and cities. I'm gonna pile 'em up inna big fire and roast 'em. I'm gonna bash heads, break faces, and jump up and down on the bits that are left.


    An' den I'm gonna get really mean."

    Grimgor Ironhide, Black Orc Warboss.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,444
    Gosling said:

    Canuovea said:

    Khorne can also represent protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

    Um. Who?

    Might makes right utterly in the eyes of Khorne. The strong survive, the weak perish.
    True, and if the Weak are Lucky then Khorne Followers might find them 'Not Worth Killing', at least for a time, as Khorne prefer the Blood and Skulls of Strong and Worthy Opponents, but in many cases Khorne Followers would Rampage and Kill Anyone on sight.
  • GoslingGosling Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,887
    Tayvar said:

    Gosling said:

    Canuovea said:

    Khorne can also represent protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

    Um. Who?

    Might makes right utterly in the eyes of Khorne. The strong survive, the weak perish.
    True, and if the Weak are Lucky then Khorne Followers might find them 'Not Worth Killing', at least for a time, as Khorne prefer the Blood and Skulls of Strong and Worthy Opponents, but in many cases Khorne Followers would Rampage and Kill Anyone on sight.
    If they've got blood, then they are on the chopping block. Khorne followers, unless they are champions and such, don't give a damn as long as they are free to KILL, MAIM, BURN. If you are weak, then you deserve death, and they are only too happy to give it to you.
    "I'm gonna stomp 'em to dust. I'm gonna grind their bones. I'm gonna burn down dere towns and cities. I'm gonna pile 'em up inna big fire and roast 'em. I'm gonna bash heads, break faces, and jump up and down on the bits that are left.


    An' den I'm gonna get really mean."

    Grimgor Ironhide, Black Orc Warboss.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,910
    Some of what I've read indicates that Khorne is also often about honour in combat. Though that might have been from Chaos tainted sources.
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  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,444
    Canuovea said:

    Some of what I've read indicates that Khorne is also often about honour in combat. Though that might have been from Chaos tainted sources.

    More like from an Older Source and for the most part Retconned Source, the Chaos Gods had clearly become more and more evil over the Editions, both in Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000, now they are mostly an omnicidal maniacs, as quite clearly shown in the End Times.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Registered Users Posts: 1,441
    edited April 2017
    Tayvar said:

    Canuovea said:

    Some of what I've read indicates that Khorne is also often about honour in combat. Though that might have been from Chaos tainted sources.

    More like from an Older Source and for the most part Retconned Source, the Chaos Gods had clearly become more and more evil over the Editions, both in Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000, now they are mostly omnicidal maniacs, as quite clearly shown in the End Times.
    Yes, there was a time were Khorne was interesting with the honor thing but now, Khorne stuff is dumb as ever only for the sake of grimdarking the setting more than necessary.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,444
    Wargol5 said:

    Tayvar said:

    Canuovea said:

    Some of what I've read indicates that Khorne is also often about honour in combat. Though that might have been from Chaos tainted sources.

    More like from an Older Source and for the most part Retconned Source, the Chaos Gods had clearly become more and more evil over the Editions, both in Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000, now they are mostly omnicidal maniacs, as quite clearly shown in the End Times.
    Yes, there was a time were Khorne was interesting with the honor thing but now, Khorne stuff is dumb as ever only for the sake of grimdarking the setting more than necessary.
    Yes, and yet Khorne had still shown an quite caring/respecting side, mainly with Valkia, but still. :)

    "As she traveled north, the daemons of Slaanesh dwelling within the Wastes fell upon Valkia, eager to avenge the insult she had made to their master. Though Valkia was a fierce warrior of Norsca, not even she could stand long against such a horde of abominations. Though she and her followers fought valiantly, the Queen was eventually torn to pieces by the daemons. In spite of her failure, her valour and courage had pleased Khorne, and so the Blood God saw fit to intervene. The sagas of the Norse say that Khorne's roars shook the very foundations of the earth, that his bellows made the mountains themselves tremble and woke Valkia from death. Khorne then took Valkia in his burning grasp and twisted her into a more pleasing form -- forging her anew in the fires of his wrath. He bent back great horns from her skull, gave her the long, bestial legs of a Bloodletter and pulled back great, bloody wings from the flesh and muscle of her shapely back. Reborn as a mighty Daemon Queen, Khorne set upon her a new task: She would now descend every dawn onto the battlefields of the mortal realms, and fight alongside those worthy warriors of Norsca and beyond who served Khorne and from the ranks of their dead she would bear warriors who died in glorious battle to the Halls of Khorne where they would fight on the Blood God's legions for all eternity. Thus, the Gorequeen, the Shield-Maiden of Khorne, was born."

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Valkia_the_Bloody#Mortal_Life
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    Wargol5 said:

    Tayvar said:

    Canuovea said:

    Some of what I've read indicates that Khorne is also often about honour in combat. Though that might have been from Chaos tainted sources.

    More like from an Older Source and for the most part Retconned Source, the Chaos Gods had clearly become more and more evil over the Editions, both in Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000, now they are mostly omnicidal maniacs, as quite clearly shown in the End Times.
    Yes, there was a time were Khorne was interesting with the honor thing but now, Khorne stuff is dumb as ever only for the sake of grimdarking the setting more than necessary.
    Grimness of Grimgod! Darkness for the Darkness Throne!"... really... completely exxegerated grimdarkness gets boring
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,444

    Wargol5 said:

    Tayvar said:

    Canuovea said:

    Some of what I've read indicates that Khorne is also often about honour in combat. Though that might have been from Chaos tainted sources.

    More like from an Older Source and for the most part Retconned Source, the Chaos Gods had clearly become more and more evil over the Editions, both in Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000, now they are mostly omnicidal maniacs, as quite clearly shown in the End Times.
    Yes, there was a time were Khorne was interesting with the honor thing but now, Khorne stuff is dumb as ever only for the sake of grimdarking the setting more than necessary.
    Grimness of Grimgod! Darkness for the Darkness Throne!"... really... completely exaggerated grimdarkness gets boring
    Bretonnia and Vampire Counts had taken an big hit from 'Grimness of Grimgod' as well, even though Bretonnia was too unrealistically nice before, and they needed little grimdarking.
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