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How fluff friendly is the Kraka Drak mod and Vampire human levies by Cataph?

GorvarGorvar Posts: 57Registered Users
So i'm really enjoying my Kraka Drak playthrough (what is more badass than dwarfs? VIKING DWARFS!) and it made me look up some lore on the Norse dwarfs.
I thought there was a reason why the Kraka Drak lot didn't have that many gunpowder units and used 'friendly' Norsicans. but from what I can read so far except for early friendly relations with the Norsicans there is no mention of friendly Umgi joining up with them or army lists that prohibits gunpowder units or gyrocopters.

So were Games Worshop to reconsider Age of Sigmar ( Wishfull thinking but it's neither here or there) and were to write a saga about the Norse Dwarfs....would it be considered lore friendly to throw in Norse marauders and Horsemen into a Kraka Drak list?

Same goes for his Human levies mod.
Look I love the Vampire Counts, nothing beats playing Count Dracula in a Total War game. However the problem I had with the army list both in-game and when GW still did Warhammer Fantasy (before the mod) was the lack of human units. I know the peasants are off-screen generating your economy but I would've loved to have some human units in my army of the undead since by all counts ( Pun fully intended) they do serve their undead masters. Or risk having their blood sucked out like the cattle they are.
In my reading, such as Mousillon and some scattered stuff I found on the Vampire Counts, I believe the Vampire Counts did have human servants to do the fighting for/with them alongside the skeleton/zombambo/Vargheist crew.
But I may've been mistaken.

Can some brave Dawi fans and the servants of Nagash please elaborate on this topic for me please?

Comments

  • TolgharTolghar Posts: 1Registered Users
    There is no mention norse dwarfs forming friendly relations between norscans as far i know but living troops under the vampire counts do exist in the lore.
  • ValeliValeli Senior Member Posts: 1,828Registered Users
    edited May 17
    Sylvanian levies were very much a thing.

    They were part of a VC variant list during the global storm of chaos campaign. I forget what edition that was, but still have fond memories. It wasn't a crazy old edition, but it certainly wasn't 7th or 8th either. I want to guess... 5th? But it's been too long.

    There were some other neat lists in that stand-alone army book, including one for the lothern sea guard, and a neat Kislev list was around in white dwarf. All of this stuff would make decent DLC fodder at some point in the future, I suppose, if CA is still putting out DLC. I'd have very much liked Kislev with game one though. But oh well....

    PS: Thank you so so so so so much for saying fluff instead of lore. So much.
    Post edited by Valeli on
  • PhiloslothicalPhiloslothical Posts: 857Registered Users
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Norse_Dwarf

    There is all you need there concerning Kraka Drak !
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  • Lt_HargroveLt_Hargrove Posts: 322Registered Users
    The norse dwarf list is pretty spiced up when compared to the little information avaible, so treat it like something out of Eliasson's works. Sylvanian levies on the other hand are a thing from older editions and in current lore vamps do have mortal servants.
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  • AantJackAantJack Posts: 59Registered Users
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 4,804Registered Users
    Technically Normal Dwarfs are also Quite Viking, why also do you think that the Dwarfs use Axes and that some of them have the iconic and fictional 'Horny Vikings Helmets'? in the 8th Edition the Vampire Counts seems to keep Morals mainly as Peasants, with some Human Necromancers, but the Vampire Counts could Levy Morals if they wont to, as they did in the Previous Editions, and as they still kinda doing in Mordheim( by recruiting Dregs). The question is, if GW stop Human Levies for being part of the Vampire Counts Roster because of artistic reasons, or out of laziness, like with Ariel, if it's an laziness case here, then it's not lore-breaking to add Human Levies for the Vampire Counts.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ariel

    http://mordheimcotd.gamepedia.com/Dreg
  • IzzyStradlinIzzyStradlin Senior Member Karaz BrynPosts: 9,895Registered Users
    Some Vampires use human troops - Vlad did, in the early stages of the Vampire Wars, and sometimes the Lahmians do when they need to fight on the field. With regards to Mannfred and Mousillon, while there are human soldiers that they can use, Mannfred has never used them and in Mousillon has only small numbers of men-at-arms and knights.
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  • BolzimerBolzimer Posts: 20Registered Users
    On the issue of the norscans, it's a point of strong contention depending on which version you read and how much faith you place in the Black Library novels.

    In version 6-7 the norse straddled the line between being fully alligned with chaos and old worlders. And there were plenty of suggestions in the lore fluff that marienburgers, worked to establish the south of Norsca as a buffert state to the more wild and savage northern tribes ( aeslings, vargs and graelings ). As well as the kurgan, who were the big threat. This hasn't been elaborated very well on in the 8th edition, where this is just kind off glossed over. As well as the norse dwarves, who don't get very much time put into them. It would be fair to assume that the norse dwarves, having adopted much of the norscan culture at the very least interacted with them enough to influence one another. One explanation was that when the norscans arrived in Norsca, they were pretty chill dudes by comparison and the dwarves could work with them.

    However, they would later fall to chaos worship. But if we are to believe the novels, the norsii ( the norscan ancestor tribe ) were chaos worshipping even when they lived in the forest of shadows. So that flat out doesn't make any sense. Therefore, I would say the only way to confront the norse dwarves is to use the 6th-7th edition interpretation of the norscans and by extension the norse dwarves. And considering the fact that they are closest to the Aeslings, who are afraid of the norse dwarves runic wards, it would make sense for the norse dwarves to have some connection to the Bjornlings, who are not just southern, but also the Aesling's rivals. If you go by these versions, a norse dwarf army fielding norscans make sense. If you go by the extended universe novels ( who often contradict eachother and the established army book lore ) , there is no chance for this happening.

    As for the Vampires fielding humans, that does make sense. Considering the Vampire Counts, at this point in the lore have remained pretty dormant, so even if life is crap for the sylvanians, they still serve their lord.
  • FrancisFrancis Member Posts: 437Registered Users
    Valeli said:

    Sylvanian levies were very much a thing.

    They were part of a VC variant list during the global storm of chaos campaign. I forget what edition that was, but still have fond memories. It wasn't a crazy old edition, but it certainly wasn't 7th or 8th either. I want to guess... 5th? But it's been too long.
    .

    It was 6th edition.
  • endurendur Posts: 1,387Registered Users
    In 3rd edition, Norse Dwarfs were part of the Norse faction (no chaos, just Vikings, berserkers, and were-wolf shape shifter norse).

  • Neolucifer2000Neolucifer2000 Junior Member Posts: 892Registered Users
    "It also has the richest deposits of obsidian and diamond north of the World's Edge Mountains. Traders willingly brave the narrow passes and mountain trails to reach it. Both Dwarf and human warriors from lands south of Norsca find ready employment as guards and escorts"
    this refers to one norse dwarf hold...and it easily can be said the same to the other norse dwarf holds like krak drak
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  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 13,800Registered Users
    On the subject of Norse Dwarfs, it's not so much contradictory information, but lack of information in general. You can theoretically craft together a narrative that respects the lore, but of course wouldn't be considered canon unless GW says it is or not.
    Besides them existing as a faction, the only specific mention of them in the game is just a quest that as you take a Dwarf Hero to their part of the map; whether they still exist as a faction by then is not relevant as it is just a "go here" quest.
    Given their location and predicament it's no surprise that they're just a developmental dead-end, destined to just be a filler NPC faction for the player to conquer, confederate or ignore.
    The very few times I see Kraka Drak mentioned in an army book, are very brief fluff tidbits of info, as opposed to something like a entire page dedicated to what specialties or unique units they'd have.
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  • GorvarGorvar Posts: 57Registered Users
    Thank you all very much for the replies guys :)
  • GorvarGorvar Posts: 57Registered Users
    edited May 20
    Question, to read more about Sylvanian levies and the first Vampire war should I read "Inheritance" from the Von Carnstein trilogy?

    Also are there any Norse Dwarf novels out there? The only real story I found was found in the Chaos Warrior army book 7th edition.
  • CataphCataph Member Posts: 466Registered Users, Cakes!
    Nice debate!

    About KD, I realize now that most of the fluff discussions ended up buried in the mod's comments (especially in the first pages) rather than sitting in the severely-size-limited description.

    My reasoning is in a nutshell based on the older fluff and on WFRP. I decided to ignore that story in WoC 7th edition (I think) that had Kraka Drak fall in rather cheesy and contradictory circumstances, with KD fielding standard dwarf stuff, Ironbreakers not collapsing the tunnels on top of their heads when facing a defeat and handy truckloads of Chaos Knights popping out of thin air at the right time.

    I went instead with the fancier notes describing KD as isolated, 'weird' and potentially more aggressive, since berserking tends to rub off, especially if you're hosting the second greatest Slayer shrine. Gear is simpler because they'd been isolated since before the War of Vengeance (hence no gunpowder) and gromril is not mentioned at all in the norse holds' descriptions. They're still bloody wealthy and excellent engineers even without indigenous Gyros and black powder, as they managed to dig a navigable tunnel, the Ungruvalk, from Sjoktraken to the Sea of Claws.

    Factors that are also handy in order to give flavour to a distinct roster, of course.

    As for the Norscan allies, it's just common sense and older/WFRP fluff. Put simply, not all Norscans are bound to be Chaos worshippers, a few of their tribes will still prefer older gods, realistically local versions of Ulric and Manaan for example. And in the wake of Archaon's coming, these are instead bound to either be slaughtered or to ask someone they can trust for help. Norscans received a black&white wash in the recent fluff but that's just humanly wrong and boring, to be honest.
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  • GorvarGorvar Posts: 57Registered Users
    Cataph said:

    Nice debate!

    About KD, I realize now that most of the fluff discussions ended up buried in the mod's comments (especially in the first pages) rather than sitting in the severely-size-limited description.

    My reasoning is in a nutshell based on the older fluff and on WFRP. I decided to ignore that story in WoC 7th edition (I think) that had Kraka Drak fall in rather cheesy and contradictory circumstances, with KD fielding standard dwarf stuff, Ironbreakers not collapsing the tunnels on top of their heads when facing a defeat and handy truckloads of Chaos Knights popping out of thin air at the right time.

    I went instead with the fancier notes describing KD as isolated, 'weird' and potentially more aggressive, since berserking tends to rub off, especially if you're hosting the second greatest Slayer shrine. Gear is simpler because they'd been isolated since before the War of Vengeance (hence no gunpowder) and gromril is not mentioned at all in the norse holds' descriptions. They're still bloody wealthy and excellent engineers even without indigenous Gyros and black powder, as they managed to dig a navigable tunnel, the Ungruvalk, from Sjoktraken to the Sea of Claws.

    Factors that are also handy in order to give flavour to a distinct roster, of course.

    As for the Norscan allies, it's just common sense and older/WFRP fluff. Put simply, not all Norscans are bound to be Chaos worshippers, a few of their tribes will still prefer older gods, realistically local versions of Ulric and Manaan for example. And in the wake of Archaon's coming, these are instead bound to either be slaughtered or to ask someone they can trust for help. Norscans received a black&white wash in the recent fluff but that's just humanly wrong and boring, to be honest.

    Completely agree with you there.
    Tbh the reason why I love your mods is because it allows people to host two diff races in an army.
    Norsicand and human levies really did add some cool strategies you couldnt use before. Dwarfs and cavalry and Vampire Counts with archers.