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sore losers always trying to get Draws

mofogiemofogie Posts: 2Registered Users
edited May 28 in Multiplayer Area
i would strongly advise taking measures against people who stall to the timer to try to get a draw. i'm sure you've all seen it... a guy with cavalry or air cavalry that can't defeat the remaining forces just running around...

look at this ****.... This guy makes a fail composition, then runs around all game, i finally manage to route his whole army, and the green knight escapes with 117 hp!

or how bout this BS.... Another guy keeps a mounted yeoman alive and his team's two lords stall till the end...

i have many more, but i think this suffices. the current system empowers these jerks... and there's alot of these jerks.

I think a very effective and easy solution: the power bar can break ties at the end of the timer, especially if it's an overwhelming power bar, like for example, you have 75% yellow in your bar. This would pressure the stallers to make a move or lose.
Post edited by BillyRuffian on
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Comments

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 931Registered Users
    multiplayer doesn't sound fun....
  • Warboss2001Warboss2001 Posts: 295Registered Users
    Haven't even played 1 second of this game but I know how annoying being denied victory is
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 2,656Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    multiplayer doesn't sound fun....

    It's fun when people don't do this. MP is not in a good state but it's getting better.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,300Registered Users
    Best solution is capture points.

    Worked great in Shogun 2.

    If your opponent wouldn't face you or would camp etc - you just captured all the dojos - a timer would start counting down - and when it hit 0 - your opponent lost the match.

    No reason for it not to implemented.
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  • Warboss2001Warboss2001 Posts: 295Registered Users
    @TheokolesOfRome sorry if I'm being rude but are you a youtuber
  • iamtherealrazieliamtherealraziel Posts: 191Registered Users
    Let's look at this from the others perspective for a second. We see the world a lot better when we have multiple points of view. It sounds like you are not bringing balanced lists. Every race has something that's suppose to counter something else the opponent is bringing. Just a quick disclaimer to follow the previous statement yes there are balance issue and that will lead to unavoidable scenarios sometimes but for the most part that's less of an issue than user error. What I can glean from your comments about your list is either you are not building appropriately for the occasion or are not employing the appropriate tactics. Mounted yeomen are going to route once enough damage is done to their army and flyer must then fight or lose. I'm going to assume you're a dwarf player as most draws in my experience involve them. I'd then wager that you do not take gyrocopters. Gyrocopter are the dwarfs answer to uncatchable crap
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 616Registered Users
    edited May 19

    Let's look at this from the others perspective for a second. We see the world a lot better when we have multiple points of view. It sounds like you are not bringing balanced lists. Every race has something that's suppose to counter something else the opponent is bringing. Just a quick disclaimer to follow the previous statement yes there are balance issue and that will lead to unavoidable scenarios sometimes but for the most part that's less of an issue than user error. What I can glean from your comments about your list is either you are not building appropriately for the occasion or are not employing the appropriate tactics. Mounted yeomen are going to route once enough damage is done to their army and flyer must then fight or lose. I'm going to assume you're a dwarf player as most draws in my experience involve them. I'd then wager that you do not take gyrocopters. Gyrocopter are the dwarfs answer to uncatchable crap


    Gyrocopter are useless against most factions as they get destroyed by flying units.
    The problem here is that at the end of the battle when your artillery or/and ranged units are dead, some opponents decide to withdraw their cavalry and flying lord and flee forever which the dwarf can't stop as he doesn't have fast units.

    The other player can also decide to cycle-charge with his lord which the dwarf can't do **** against.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • iamtherealrazieliamtherealraziel Posts: 191Registered Users
    Gyrocopters work vs everybody, and given I was right about my previous guesses I'm going to make a few more assumptions. Instead of researching your gyro's for end of game you send them out immediately to harass/die and or don't ever bother with them. Guard them with thunderers or quarrelers and sit in them to avoid this exact scenario as described by you. They are designed to be fast very fast, even the bombers have like 90 ms. Treat them like light cavalry.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,300Registered Users

    @TheokolesOfRome sorry if I'm being rude but are you a youtuber

    I play Total War and sometimes upload to youtube.
    My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/brightbluejacket1
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  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 616Registered Users
    edited May 20

    Gyrocopters work vs everybody, and given I was right about my previous guesses I'm going to make a few more assumptions. Instead of researching your gyro's for end of game you send them out immediately to harass/die and or don't ever bother with them. Guard them with thunderers or quarrelers and sit in them to avoid this exact scenario as described by you. They are designed to be fast very fast, even the bombers have like 90 ms. Treat them like light cavalry.

    So much bs I can't stop laughing. It works vs AI but not vs a good player, I'm sorry to disappoint you.
    Gyros only work vs beastmen (harpies are too slow though they are cheap so it's 50/50), it also works a bit vs orcs and chaos but only if your opponent doesn't have enough flyers or foe-seeker/speed potion.
    In all the cases I mentioned these factions have chariots + cav and most of their units excel at pulling through (especially gorebulls) so it doesn't really matter.
    Worse, if (as you said) you sit with your gyro close to your thunderers, what's the point in bringing it ? At some point the other player will come with his flyers + cav/chariots/large units/summonings and will stop both your gyros and your ranged units.

    Moreover the fact that you mentionned the quarrelers instead of the rangers w/axes to defend your gyros shows that you didn't really try these kind of tactics against players.
    It might work against a few bad players but not against someone with a clue of what the usual dwarf tactics are.

    Instead of bringing gyros you could bring an additionnal runesmith or thunderer/slayer/2rangers etc.... and do a much better work with them. Against bretonnia for example it's better for you to stick with rangers/thunderers and dwarf warriors to stop cav in the back/slayers for pegasii. Your gyro will either keep being chased when he's about to fire (so won't fire) or will be destroyed by pegasii (who are faster than you, especially if it's a hero/lord with foe-seeker/potion).


    And if you try to keep a unit for the end-game as you said it's -800 per gyro for your whole army. Meaning that in the best case where your gyro hasn't been destroyed (extremely unlikely) your main army is weaker than your opponent's and you'll probably lose the battle. In the worst case you've just wasted 800 gold per gyro that has been destroyed and you still lose.

    I advise you to train a bit in MP (lobby or ladder both are ok) and you'll get better.

    Have fun ;)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 421Registered Users
    I agree with the OP that there's no reliable army build that can outdo a committed draw-seeker. The MP win condition is just terribly designed right now. Building an army around a draw condition will weaken you against the actual enemy army you should otherwise be building your army against. If someone wants to build a draw-focused army it's always going to be easy for them to do that.

    Even worse, people who aren't intending to seek out draws can still feel justified in playing for one after a close fight if they happen to have the last cav unit left, because that's literally the rules of the game.

    They should enact a simple 20 minute center-field control marker for the win after time runs out, but in the meantime there's only social norms preventing draw-seeking.
  • iamtherealrazieliamtherealraziel Posts: 191Registered Users
    You'll continue to suffer from a problem I've already solved because you don't listen to answers you don't like. I do not have a slew of people forcing draws on me because I do not let them. I'm happy to demonstrate to you how this all works but I doubt you'd change your view no matter what the evidence.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 2,656Registered Users

    You'll continue to suffer from a problem I've already solved because you don't listen to answers you don't like. I do not have a slew of people forcing draws on me because I do not let them. I'm happy to demonstrate to you how this all works but I doubt you'd change your view no matter what the evidence.

    Are you the new Dandy?
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 616Registered Users

    You'll continue to suffer from a problem I've already solved because you don't listen to answers you don't like. I do not have a slew of people forcing draws on me because I do not let them. I'm happy to demonstrate to you how this all works but I doubt you'd change your view no matter what the evidence.

    Are you the new Dandy?
    There can only be one dandy.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 1,160Registered Users
    Needs less sentence structure and more screenshots.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 48Registered Users
    edited May 23
    As someone who has draw kited multiple times, I 100% agree with the OP.

    I don't deliberately plan to draw kite from the get-go, but yeah, if I start losing, and still have my wight king squad alive, I usually go for the draw. IF I'm successful in originally getting my leadership disengaged from the fight, the KITING part almost always works. It's a very difficult strategy to stop; with the original retreat being the most dangerous part.

    iamtherealraziel: Bringing "anti-draw" units hardly ever works, because most people (such as myself) who go for a draw, only do it after the battle has been raging for awhile. This means that any units which could have killed the draw-kiting units are dead. Or they are in such a weak condition that even if they could catch the draw-kiters (usually Wight Kings for me) they couldn't actually beat them in a fight nor could they pin them down long enough for infantry/missile units to arrive.

    As an additional suggestion, I think CA needs to treat the causes, rather than just the symptoms when it comes to draw-kiting. Specifically, the incredibly disproportionate point values added for a win versus deducted for a loss. This is mainly an issue after your rank has been weighted by a large number of matches, but still, it's a problem. In closely packed groups, it is frustrating to only go up 2-5 ranks for every win, but dropping 50+ ranks for a single loss. If the rank drop for a loss was less severe, I honestly wouldn't feel the need to draw kite in the first place.
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 616Registered Users
    It's a shame you feel the need to draw kite...... If you're good enough you should be able to compensate your loses with your wins (it's usually 8 to 11 wins for 1 defeat when you are very high). It's not that hard honestly. If you tryhard you can usually achieve 20 wins in a streak.......

    Please don't waste people's time by draw kiting. And if they deserve their win let them win. I would understand if you would just draw kite when people cheese though (like slayer spam/giant spam vs vampire/ steam tank spam etc.....).
    And please, oh please don't call draw kiting a strategy, it gives credit to it.....
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 421Registered Users
    edited May 28

    It's a shame you feel the need to draw kite...... If you're good enough you should be able to compensate your loses with your wins (it's usually 8 to 11 wins for 1 defeat when you are very high). It's not that hard honestly. If you tryhard you can usually achieve 20 wins in a streak.......

    Please don't waste people's time by draw kiting. And if they deserve their win let them win. I would understand if you would just draw kite when people cheese though (like slayer spam/giant spam vs vampire/ steam tank spam etc.....).
    And please, oh please don't call draw kiting a strategy, it gives credit to it.....

    On this topic, recommend no one wastes time playing this guy in quick battle.

    Dude took 4 steam tanks and jade wizards vs my dwarfs. I don't mind that at all. He gets wrecked by my range. Spends the next 12 minutes running away from my undamaged army for the draw. Fortunately I had other things to do during the 12 minutes.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,300Registered Users
    edited May 28
    eumaies said:



    On this topic, recommend no one wastes time playing this guy in quick battle.

    Dude took 4 steam tanks and jade wizards vs my dwarfs. I don't mind that at all. He gets wrecked by my range. Spends the next 12 minutes running away from my undamaged army for the draw. Fortunately I had other things to do during the 12 minutes.

    Just a note - but don't name players. It's against forum rules and is seen as 'shaming.'

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  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,300Registered Users
    Valkaar said:

    As someone who has draw kited multiple times, I 100% agree with the OP.

    Nice to see this level of honesty.

    And to an extent I agree that the points system needs a re-work as one of the root causes, but what gets me is that there are solutions to draw kiting that historically have been implemented - and worked really well - only for them not to be included in their latest games.

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  • kikrakenkikraken Posts: 16Registered Users
    It is hard to believe that a game which aspires to have a multiplayer community just benefits those players who cheat. Because loosing a game and getting a draw, is to cheat. I really don't care about cheese, I've rearely lost to it, but not letting someone have his deserved win is such a shameful attitude that it should be punished. Or at least there should be a way of sending the repetitions of the game to some mod so they could ban the player seeking a draw.

    This game is welcoming all the scum other games are banning from their servers.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,300Registered Users
    kikraken said:

    It is hard to believe that a game which aspires to have a multiplayer community just benefits those players who cheat. Because loosing a game and getting a draw, is to cheat. I really don't care about cheese, I've rearely lost to it, but not letting someone have his deserved win is such a shameful attitude that it should be punished. Or at least there should be a way of sending the repetitions of the game to some mod so they could ban the player seeking a draw.

    This game is welcoming all the scum other games are banning from their servers.

    It's not about it benefiting players who cheat - it's a case of not putting in the resources and time in to developing fair systems for a side of the game that only a small percentage play.

    It appears though that they want to change that.

    They're giving us FFA in the hopes that the MP community will grow - and because victory in that is points based and not resolution based it will be a healthier atmosphere - we just have to show up and play the new mode and maybe we can get more features down the line.

    That seems fair to me.
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  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 1,478Registered Users

    If you're good enough you should be able to compensate your loses with your wins (it's usually 8 to 11 wins for 1 defeat when you are very high). It's not that hard honestly. If you tryhard you can usually achieve 20 wins in a streak.

    Does this not seem ludicrous to anyone else? Ranking up is as easy as trying hard and winning 20 games for every 1 loss? That's your advice?
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 616Registered Users
    edited June 11
    8/10 games for 1 loss is okay. 20 is a win streak you can easily achieve.
    And since we are all in the same box it's hard for all of us to rank up so it's fair.
    Honestly I should be the one crying the most about it. Each loss atm makes me lose 700 points and each victory makes me win 10~20 ish points. But I've been tryharding with beastmen and chaos a lot the last 100 battles so it's kinda normal (lul).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 48Registered Users

    8/10 games for 1 loss is okay.

    No it's not okay. It's poor design.

    I posted more about this in a different thread on the same topic, but suffice it to say, if it was designed properly...a 50% winrate should equal staying put. That's how most legitimate multiplayer games work. If your winrate goes above 50% you should climb ranks and if it drops below you should lose ranks.

    Not only does a 50% winrate = stability make intuitive sense, but it would also deincentivize draw kiting, as no single loss would threaten to undo hours of laddering.
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 616Registered Users
    This ladder is purely winrate. If you don't have a good ratio you aren't in the top 100/200. Look at how many battles I've played. Imagine then that you can be number 1 with only 55% winrate but still grinding places because you have over 50%.

    The ladder would then just become a grind and a matter of who plays the most instead of who wins the most.
    Though I play a lot I'm not super-fond of grind. Until skaven come of course yes-yes (gonna lose my social life definitely:) ).

    HOW the ladder works atm is not a problem : if you win a lot more than you lose (aka good player) you have a good rank. Anyone can achieve that honestly, just gotta train a bit.

    My main concerns honestly are draw kiters/ point loss bug which CA should focus on instead of changing things that work already.
    What you could ask though is more stats instead of only wins and points like ratios, stats per faction, total kills etc..etc... Would definitely help giving more taste to the MP
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 48Registered Users
    edited June 12
    I think you're over thinking it. 50% winrates = staying put do not create that grinding feeling nor does it generate a system where more games played = more ranks. Plenty of other games balance their ladder around 50% winrates and do not have those problems. You're afraid of a strawman on that point.

    Granted, one of the reasons other games avoid those problems is because they also have power matched laddering systems with players only matched up against players with similar MMR.

    Total War might not have enough active multiplayer people to do a strict MMR system without making the wait times for queuing matches absurdly long. At the same time, the number of active multiplayers would likely grow if they changed/improved their ladder system to include an MMR element.

    Maybe the new FFA mode will help grow the population enough to justify putting some resources into fixes.

    P.S. As a 100% side note...I think you have an excessively rosy picture of what it takes to climb the current ladder. It's definitely not skill or training.

    I'm a terrible player and I've made the first page every time I've sunk the time into it. I haven't played much MP since the Brettonia patch but I was rank 34 on less than 300 games before it hit. I've made it back to page 5/6 on less than 20 games since then. If I logged in another 100 to 200 matches I'm positive I'd be back up there.

    I'm able to do this because I play 1 faction exclusively, I heal blob, I bring cheesy armies, I draw kite, I corner camp, etc. (Not all of those things in the same match of course :-). I am not atypical. I imagine less than a dozen first pagers are actually good at this game. The rest are like me. In the meantime many actually skilled players are nowhere close to the first page due to problems with the ladder.

    I'm just saying, you seem to have this misinformed notion that the current ladder rewards skill. It absolutely does not. A 50% winrate MMR system would ACTUALLY create the environment you naively think exists now.
    Post edited by Valkaar on
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 311Registered Users
    The matchmaking and ladder in general needs a redesign, however there are more important issues at the moment so i feel if a community or few top players came up with some kind of basics for both match making and ranking up in order not to take away time from CA and presented their idea to be looked at by CA it could be a start in the direction of fixing the problem and like you have said possibly minimise draw kiting.
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisPosts: 616Registered Users
    edited June 12
    I think you're over thinking it. 50% winrates = staying put do not create that grinding feeling nor does it generate a system where more games played = more ranks.


    Well you probably forgot to think at all. If you lower how many victories you need and make it 50/50, you don't really need to win often. You need to win more. i.e. Someone who wins 20 battles and loses 5 in the current ladder can lose 40 battles as long as he wins 40. That's called a grind. You could be very bad at this game but play 24/24 and be n°10 with 301 wins 300 losses when number 30 has 200 and 80 losses due to an evening of n°10's score thanks to the 50% winrate.

    lenty of other games balance their ladder around 50% winrates and do not have those problems.


    I don't play a lot of mp games which games ?

    At the same time, the number of active multiplayers would likely grow if they changed/improved their ladder system to include an MMR element.


    That's not what prevents people from playing MP. And your assessment is based on nothing >.>

    Maybe the new FFA mode will help grow the population enough to justify putting some resources into fixes.


    I agree and hope so. The thing though is I doubt it will be linked to ladder.

    I heal blob, I bring cheesy armies, I draw kite, I corner camp, etc.


    At least you recognize it. But that's one of the reasons why people don't play MP, the playerbase is mostly toxic.

    I'm just saying, you seem to have this misinformed notion that the current ladder rewards skill.


    I'm sorry but I've never said the ladder rewards only skill.
    It rewards skill or cheese. But apparently for you it doesn't reward skill at all which is not true in any way. Maybe you are toxic enough to think that all the players on the first few pages are toxic too because the ladder doesn't reward skill ? I hope not.

    And if there's no "environnement" atm it's then probably because of people like you who bring cheesy armies, draw kite, heal blob and corner camp. The fact that you and some other shameless people cheese doesn't nullify what other peole do.

    You should read the ladder without taking cheesers into account, it's then a lot more accurate. There are almost as many great/good players as cheesers on the first few pages.
    A 50% winrate wouldn't remove cheese and cheesers who just want a good rank. They will always be higher ranked since they will have more wins and lose less time losing ( i.e. the cheeser will still have 100 wins 10 losses while the average player 60 wins 50 losses) which doesn't change anything.

    What poisons the ladder atm can easily be corrected by adding some unit restrictions, rebalancing healing, adding capture points etc.... (I would add crucifying toxic players but apparently it's not allowed xD)
    After all of this is fixed I'm pretty sure a small stream of players will begin to flow in QBs. And who knows maybe we will end up with a decent playerbase worth (from CA's point of view) doing something of substance out of our MP.


    I've written this in bold letters so that CA can focus on it x).
    Post edited by ODM_Emptythought on
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 48Registered Users
    Yeah I honestly think based on your above post, you really just need to play some MMR based multiplayer games to understand where I'm coming from in terms of its advantages.

    They do reward/penalize streaks of wins and losses. No individual win/loss will heavily impact your rank (unfortunately like Total War). However, it's intuitive. The length of the streak required doesn't change based on games played in most cases.

    For example, in SC2, I have logged 4,000+ matches. But my required streak for a league promotion is no longer than a player who only has 400 logged matches.

    The length of streak required will vary based on your exact winrate during the streak. That's the more important part.

    So if I play 20 games with a 90% winrate, I'm almost guaranteed to climb. But if I have a 60% winrate, I may have to maintain that for 40 games before the game promotes me as it's trying to confirm it isn't a fluke.

    I won't write a novel about every mechanic that makes these systems function. But I promise, SC2 and other 50%winrate/MMR based systems do not create this grind you're afraid of.

    It's almost the norm now for a lot of eports games.

    LoL, Dota 2, Overwatch, Starcraft 2 are just a few I can think of off the top of my head that use the system I'm advocating.

    I should say, those games don't need to be replicated 100%. For example, we don't need leagues or seasons or any of the fluff. Just the nuts and bolts I think would suffice in generating improvement.

    As far as 'cheese' and 'toxicity' we may just have to agree to disagree...but I feel it's prevalent because Total War's ladder rewards it. There is incentive to pursue those strategies that does not exist as much in MMR/50% systems.

    I rarely cheese in SC2 and I have never once draw kited...because there is no benefit to doing so in that system. One loss won't erase a whole afternoon of laddering, so I'd rather take a loss than play hide and seek for forever. In SC2 it's not worth my time. In total war, it is.

    For cheese, in SC2, sure, I probably could exclusively 12 pool (a cheese build) and get promoted out of bronze or silver league. But as my MMR would go up in gold or platinum leagues, there is no way I could keep a good winrate just 12 pooling, as I'd be matched against better and better MMR players.

    So once I'm in gold or plat (medium level leagues)...if I really wanted to maintain a good winrate, my only option is to practice, and get better. So that's what I do. There is no way I could 12 pool all the way to grandmaster league (the front page).....id get crushed.

    But in total war...i absolutely can '12 pool to grandmaster'....and that's easier than practicing, so that's what I do.

    Obviously, you cannot 100% eliminate cheese or trolls in either system. But I 100% feel that Total War's system straight up encourages cheese, draws, and other 'toxicity'.....that 50% winrate, MMR systems do not.

    I don't think people are inherently more 'toxic' in one community over another. I think in any community, people will abuse the mechanics available to make their lives easier. Total War has more abusable mechanics than other multiplayer games I've played.

    If they fixed the system, I am certain that would at least decrease the behavior. You can disagree if you want, but I guarantee you I'm not a lone example (somebody who is more "toxic" in total war than I am in other games because Total War rewards the behavior while other games don't)

    If you really think 'toxicity' is the issue...i think you'd be pleasantly surprised how much that would go down in favor of practicing/learning the game, if there was a 50%/MMR system that actually required people to improve if they want to climb.
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