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Orc Warboss vs Exalted Hero

Dart_AleksDart_Aleks Registered Users Posts: 44
edited June 2017 in Balancing Discussions
Recently I had quick battle - Orcs (me) vs Chaos. My Lord was Orc Warboss on the Wyvern. My opponent had Exalted Hero on the Manticore. Exalted hero had all his abilities and no items. My warboss had all abilities and potions of healing and foolhardiness. That was the only air units.

When I saw his hero - I thought "Easy win for me". To my surprise, armor-piercing warboss with potions lost to exalted hero. And exalted hero isn't even armor-piercing. I tested afterwards 1 on 1 with this units. And yeah, exalted hero emerges victorious in this situation. The only stats which is better on exalted hero is +10 attack and +10 armor.

I don't think that +10 attack is that much of a deal. Especially when exalted hero don't have much armor-piercing. So - what am I missing here? Some hidden stats? Or +10 attack is really important here?
Post edited by Dart_Aleks on
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  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisRegistered Users Posts: 671
    edited June 2017
    Yes, dragons and wyverns are really bad as you end up with **** stats. Manticores and pegasii can indeed win the flying combat. Still depends on which lord/hero though. But against chaos i'd recommend azhag instead as he can spam spirit leech while outspeeding the other flyers.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Registered Users Posts: 529
    edited June 2017

    Yes, dragons and wyverns are really bad as you end up with **** stats. Manticores and pegasii can indeed win the flying combat. Still depends on which lord/hero though. But against chaos i'd recommend azhag instead as he can spam spirit leech while outspeeding the other flyers.

    Thats not the point of this thread.

    You are right OP, according to the statistics, only MA and Armor is higher on the EH. Meanwhile the OWB(and substantially at that) have the advantage every where else. Not only that, but the activated abilities are stronger on the OWB. That being there is a mark for the EH and its pretty good... but it doesnt show on stats when picked.

    Still, just looking at the statistics, the OWB should win, easily. So I dont know whats going on there, maybe attack speed? But thats a hidden statistic...
  • Dart_AleksDart_Aleks Registered Users Posts: 44

    But against chaos i'd recommend azhag instead as he can spam spirit leech while outspeeding the other flyers.

    Well, yeah, now I will chose accordingly. I went air because of Shaggoths, that Chaos brings to snipe lords and heroes.

    That being there is a mark for the EH and its pretty good... but it doesnt show on stats when picked.

    Still, just looking at the statistics, the OWB should win, easily. So I dont know whats going on there, maybe attack speed? But thats a hidden statistic...

    In tests I brought exalted hero without marks and he wins. On foot and ground mounts warboss wins easily. But mount him on the wyvern - everything changes. Seems like warboss on the wyvern constantly misses and doesn't do damage and his abilities with potions just prolongs agony. In the end he will lose to exalted hero on the wyvern. That's odd.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,448

    Yes, dragons and wyverns are really bad as you end up with **** stats. Manticores and pegasii can indeed win the flying combat. Still depends on which lord/hero though. But against chaos i'd recommend azhag instead as he can spam spirit leech while outspeeding the other flyers.

    Thats not the point of this thread.

    You are right OP, according to the statistics, only MA and Armor is higher on the EH. Meanwhile the OWB(and substantially at that) have the advantage every where else. Not only that, but the activated abilities are stronger on the OWB. That being there is a mark for the EH and its pretty good... but it doesnt show on stats when picked.

    Still, just looking at the statistics, the OWB should win, easily. So I dont know whats going on there, maybe attack speed? But thats a hidden statistic...
    maybe bad luck.
  • zer0izer0i Registered Users Posts: 345
    Yeah flyers RNG seems quite inconsistent
  • irurobinirurobin Registered Users Posts: 1,826
    According to ArchonPrime it is due to attack speed and stagger.

    The orc warboss on Wyvern only attack once while the exalted hero attack three times and there is a high chance of staggering the warboss within that three attack.
  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Registered Users Posts: 1,113
    edited June 2017
    When they both on flying mount...that's about it...WB on wyvern attack speed is very slow...so EH has high chance to win that fight...
  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Registered Users Posts: 1,113
    edited June 2017
    But i think this is warboss on wyvern's problem...EH is still stupidly expensive and useless...
  • zer0izer0i Registered Users Posts: 345
    Hmm I tried 5 times with both units stripped and the EH won 4, the warboss just kept missing, 3 misses in a row frequently and sometimes even more.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,604
    exalted hero's are already quite ****....i think it is probably to do with wyvern attack speed and stagger....and then you get comments from dev like its not that important stat lol

  • Dart_AleksDart_Aleks Registered Users Posts: 44
    irurobin said:

    According to ArchonPrime it is due to attack speed and stagger.

    The orc warboss on Wyvern only attack once while the exalted hero attack three times and there is a high chance of staggering the warboss within that three attack.

    When they both on flying mount...that's about it...WB on wyvern attack speed is very slow...so EH has high chance to win that fight...

    That's good to know. Thanks. Didn't expect that wyverns are that bad.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,448
    zer0 said:

    Hmm I tried 5 times with both units stripped and the EH won 4, the warboss just kept missing, 3 misses in a row frequently and sometimes even more.

    So what? Should EH get 0 all stats and 1hp so orks be happy?
  • zer0izer0i Registered Users Posts: 345
    No, ofc not, the it's not a problem with the EH it's a problem with the warboss.
  • RodentofDoomRodentofDoom Registered Users Posts: 586
    Do the changes made to unit size when mounted account for this discrepancy ?
    Are both mounts classed as Large, or is just one 'Huge' ?


    Mostly familiar with VC
    Lord on Horse/Hellsteed becomes a Large unit (due to mount size)
    Lord on Z-D becomes a Huge unit (due to mount size)
    Using the Z-D is often the worst choice to make ...
  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Registered Users Posts: 529
    Attack speed is an extremely important statistic, it must be displayed for proper comprehension. If it was, we wouldnt have this conversation here, we would just figured that EH win because of higher attack speed.

    There are certainly other statistics that should be displayed, and there is no reasons not to have them. We are intelligent people, dont make us dig into game file or search the deep down web for information that should be available for every body.
  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,658

    Attack speed is an extremely important statistic, it must be displayed for proper comprehension. If it was, we wouldnt have this conversation here, we would just figured that EH win because of higher attack speed.

    If you are talking about the melee attack interval in melee_weapons table, that one has no influence in this match up as both units have the same 3.8 second interval. If you are observing differences in attack frequency, this is due to how the animation sets interact with each other. Usually units with low melee attack interval will have less effective animations, while ones with high melee attack interval have effective anims. Melee attack interval is essentially a tool to control the effect of animations on combat and ensure that actual attack frequency is roughly similar.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisRegistered Users Posts: 671
    edited June 2017
    I'm not a modder but can someone try to give the warboss the same melee attack as the exalted hero and check if it makes a difference ? In my tests the warboss seems to miss a lot which is due to his low melee attack.

    Yes, dragons and wyverns are really bad as you end up with **** stats. Manticores and pegasii can indeed win the flying combat. Still depends on which lord/hero though. But against chaos i'd recommend azhag instead as he can spam spirit leech while outspeeding the other flyers.

    Thats not the point of this thread.

    You are right OP, according to the statistics, only MA and Armor is higher on the EH. Meanwhile the OWB(and substantially at that) have the advantage every where else. Not only that, but the activated abilities are stronger on the OWB. That being there is a mark for the EH and its pretty good... but it doesnt show on stats when picked.

    Still, just looking at the statistics, the OWB should win, easily. So I dont know whats going on there, maybe attack speed? But thats a hidden statistic...
    And yeah that's the point of the thread, some mounts give bad stats which can end up in a loss in a hero duel which is exactly what happened to Dark_Aleks.
    Now just gotta check with better melee attack stats.

    Attack intervals though. Another hidden stat >.>. What about staggering too is it just linked to an animation or is it calculated somehow ? Like knockback ? Dragons and wyverns stagger a lot so that's probably why they lose their duels often. Maybe the stagger also resets their attack interval which would kinda make sense :/
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Registered Users Posts: 1,113
    edited June 2017
    In stats,they have the same attack speed(3.8s),but i tested many times,wyvern's attack is slower than other flyer else...not sure is this a BUG or what...
  • irurobinirurobin Registered Users Posts: 1,826
    Yup. It says they all have the same attack interval but in reality the wyverns are slower than all others flying units. Are wyverns' animation designed to be the worst?
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    CA_Duck said:

    Attack speed is an extremely important statistic, it must be displayed for proper comprehension. If it was, we wouldnt have this conversation here, we would just figured that EH win because of higher attack speed.

    If you are talking about the melee attack interval in melee_weapons table, that one has no influence in this match up as both units have the same 3.8 second interval. If you are observing differences in attack frequency, this is due to how the animation sets interact with each other. Usually units with low melee attack interval will have less effective animations, while ones with high melee attack interval have effective anims. Melee attack interval is essentially a tool to control the effect of animations on combat and ensure that actual attack frequency is roughly similar.
    @CA_Duck

    So the real delay between attacks is the attack interval + animation duration?
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,751
    CA_Duck said:

    Attack speed is an extremely important statistic, it must be displayed for proper comprehension. If it was, we wouldnt have this conversation here, we would just figured that EH win because of higher attack speed.

    If you are talking about the melee attack interval in melee_weapons table, that one has no influence in this match up as both units have the same 3.8 second interval. If you are observing differences in attack frequency, this is due to how the animation sets interact with each other. Usually units with low melee attack interval will have less effective animations, while ones with high melee attack interval have effective anims. Melee attack interval is essentially a tool to control the effect of animations on combat and ensure that actual attack frequency is roughly similar.
    Super interesting. Glad you stopped by to weigh in on this.
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  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Registered Users Posts: 529
    edited June 2017
    CA_Duck said:

    Attack speed is an extremely important statistic, it must be displayed for proper comprehension. If it was, we wouldnt have this conversation here, we would just figured that EH win because of higher attack speed.

    If you are talking about the melee attack interval in melee_weapons table, that one has no influence in this match up as both units have the same 3.8 second interval. If you are observing differences in attack frequency, this is due to how the animation sets interact with each other. Usually units with low melee attack interval will have less effective animations, while ones with high melee attack interval have effective anims. Melee attack interval is essentially a tool to control the effect of animations on combat and ensure that actual attack frequency is roughly similar.
    I see very interesting, thanks for the input once again. That being said I didnt check, I was simply speculating that it could be the cause of the OWB on wyvern losing to EH on manticore despite having;

    +720 health
    -10 armor
    +4 leadership
    +15 speed
    -10 melee attack
    +4 melee defense
    +40 weapon strength (170 WD - AP 300)
    +35 charge bonus

    health potion + potion of fool hardiness

    How is it possible for the OWB lose despite all these statistics showing in theory the contrary?

    I tested 3 times, I was using the orc, I gave the EH the mark. I waited for his abilities to be off cooldown then charged with foe seeker. I cycled his abilities to maximum efficiency... its weird he bring him very low than can't seem to land a hit. As you mentionned they have the same attack speed, so it can't be that. It cant be the melee attack waagh give him +58... I dont understand.
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