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Why CA don't want (aparently) to add Legendary Heroes?.

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  • steam_164509303066UH3Iof8steam_164509303066UH3Iof8 Registered Users Posts: 308
    Gotrek & Felix , please?
    Give them a round limit like the green knight.

    I would love to see them spoiling one of Thanquols great plans.
  • SkalliSkalli Registered Users Posts: 107
    They could treat LH like an unit who can't leave the army and Krell gets the restriction that he can only accompany Kemmler's army.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    edited July 2017
    Aside from the issue of implementation, my bet is that CA wants to put this kind of ressource on leaders. The lore and story from warhammer is almost a bottomless well, and who's important will never been agreed among the players.

    The green knight was something always central to Bretonnia, but explained as an intermittent presence.
    Kreel was a long standing meme linked to one of the first 4 LL released.

    We can wish for more, but there are many factions and very important characters to add.
    Post edited by uriak on
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    I simply repeat the points I already made on this topic:

    1.Legendary heroes mean immortal army and character wrackers on the campaign map which sounds horrible

    2.Taking LH's ability away to affect the campaign map on the other hand is schizophrenic and gamey at the same time. Why can an Empire Captain nuke a portion of the enemy army but a theoretical LH Kurt Hellborg can't?

    3.My solution was to have LH's suffer XP and skill point loss every time they are wounded, that way you have a method to cut an army/character wrecker down to size ( I actually would like this to happen to LLs as well)
  • Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806
    *Cough* Dwarven Ghosts *Cough*

    But truth being said, this is the only exception. Krell is temporary, Green Knight is temporary (although not as limited as Krell).

    No idea why they don't want legendary heroes to be a thing. I say the more heroes, the better.

    Priority though should be adding regulards lords and heroes that are missing, and there's a lot of missing ones. Some races have only 2-3 heroes, which is a joke.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    You can get permanently rid of the dwarf ghosts for good without destroying the entire faction, hence they're not truly "legendary".
  • Arthas_Menethil#3421Arthas_Menethil#3421 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,368
    So with how Legendary Heros have been done with either Campaign temp summon(Green Knight), Battlefield Summon(Krell) or turned into a Lord(Isabella) How would any of these work for Ludwig Schwarzhelm the personal bodyguard of Karl Franz and bearer of his personal battle standard or will each Hero get their unique way of being put in?
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    So with how Legendary Heros have been done with either Campaign temp summon(Green Knight), Battlefield Summon(Krell) or turned into a Lord(Isabella) How would any of these work for Ludwig Schwarzhelm the personal bodyguard of Karl Franz and bearer of his personal battle standard or will each Hero get their unique way of being put in?

    Each hero being unique doesn't sound so bad actually.
  • bronhomsbronhoms Registered Users Posts: 1,332
    My biggest grief with their handling of the Lords/Heroes thing aspect is that I cannot have more than one lord in an army, and that heroes can't be generals.

    There should just be a general who could either be lord or hero.

    Recruiting multiple lords for an army would be ridiculously expensive, but none the less, it was always a part of WHFB that I liked, pairing different special characters together (Kholek and Galrauch for a monster army) or funny builds (Sorceror lord on dragon with tzeentch lord on disc fx).

    Adding "legendary heroes" means those special characters won't be able to lead an army (like Helman Ghorst can, even though he is a Hero choice in WHFB), because only "lords" can.

    Wulfric and Throgg were both hero choices in WHFB, but now they are lords, because then they can lead an army. As they do in the lore. But it was never a problem to have them lead armies in WHFB. Heroes could be generals, the character with the highest leadership were automatically general of the army.

  • Helhound#7332Helhound#7332 Registered Users Posts: 5,373
    LH implementation wouldnt work due to the transient nature of heroes. As someone else pointed out we need to prevent herohammer not encourge it.

    Invincible heroes assassinating lords and butchering armies without consequence, just because it would be unloreful to have them just die cause they failed an assassination attempt, breaks the core rule of any game. It isnt fun. Everything is second to entertainment value. After all how many people complained about super AI agents on release. We dont need to bring it back.

    And they cant just be attached at the hip to an army. Thats not only gamey as some people already phrased but brings up many questions. What happens if the hero dies in battle. Get him back for free next turn? I can abuse the hell outta that. What happens if the lord dies in battle or is assassinated? They both just pack up and leave? Well thats another possible exploit knock out one and you get both. Recruit one and the other is free.

    Krell as a summon works beautifully. He's attached to his loreful lord, always has a massive impact in battle straight up shattering front lines, and can never negatively impact the overall campaign.

    And for heroes who dont meet the same particular circumstance weve seen CA incorporate them as LL. Isabella is not a lord, but is in TWW and it actually functions extremely well. Especially since her flier focus can quickly be brought up to reinforce vlads front line army. Their skill trees complement each others.

    Hell Wulfrik is technically not a Chaos Lord (no seriously hes not). Dude was just a hero on TT albiet one who would whoop the **** outta any legendary lord that isnt End Times **** or Archaon. And that guy got his own faction. Highly approve of CAs implementation of heroes thus far.
  • corvus_codex#4567corvus_codex#4567 Junior Member SpainRegistered Users Posts: 3,073
    bronhoms said:

    Adding "legendary heroes" means those special characters won't be able to lead an army (like Helman Ghorst can, even though he is a Hero choice in WHFB), because only "lords" can..

    no no, when i said "Legendary hero" im not talking about "Any TT hero character", im talking about those Heroes that Cannot be the leader of an army, that are mostly assasins, but also ludwig Schwarzhelm, for example.

    I Don't know how Ghorst works in TT, but if he can be the commander of the army, it isnt the case that I am proposing.

    image
    "I am the harbinger of your demise. I am the nightmare in all mortals. I am the thing you fear the most. I am death..."
    —Valkia the Bloody.
  • r_collins36r_collins36 Registered Users Posts: 913
    I would straight up love gotrek and felix but how do you put them in. Gotrek and felix is equal to any lord and clearly better than some. Yet, Gotrek does not lead armies....not easy to figure out.
  • ThanquolThanquol Senior Member SkavenblightRegistered Users Posts: 2,019
    I'm quite happy CA have been so restrained in this field as I fear it would make the battles too hero centric.
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  • Mr_Finley7#4571Mr_Finley7#4571 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,417
    As many others have pointed out, plenty of heroes acted as leaders of armies in the lore. So making them legendary lords works just as well in my opinion.
  • daelin4#9896daelin4#9896 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,521
    A better question is why should you make characters Heroes, when they are much better off being Lords?

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Commissar_G#7535Commissar_G#7535 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,864
    daelin4 said:

    A better question is why should you make characters Heroes, when they are much better off being Lords?

    Having 2 special characters in 1 army has a certain appeal.

    Vlad and Isabella, Kemmler and Krell for example.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • daelin4#9896daelin4#9896 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,521
    Reinforce.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Mogwai_Man#4978Mogwai_Man#4978 Registered Users Posts: 6,096
    It might be for balancing reasons as well as funding. This is definitely the most expensive total war title due to all the unique 3d models and it is also the most difficult to balance due to the faction variety.
  • corvus_codex#4567corvus_codex#4567 Junior Member SpainRegistered Users Posts: 3,073
    Thanquol said:

    I'm quite happy CA have been so restrained in this field as I fear it would make the battles too hero centric.

    Well, I'm not talking about a dozen heroes per faction, in fact I love to see a limit like... 3 heroes per army, not like now that you see the AI using an army with 6 heroes and such.
    image
    "I am the harbinger of your demise. I am the nightmare in all mortals. I am the thing you fear the most. I am death..."
    —Valkia the Bloody.
  • Commissar_G#7535Commissar_G#7535 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,864
    daelin4 said:

    Reinforce.

    Sure if your reinforcements come in from the same direction, if the AI is hiding in a town or that 1 time a campaign the AI will actually fight 2 of your stacks at once.

    For the rest of the time having to do that is just tedium.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    daelin4 said:

    Reinforce.

    if the AI is hiding in a town ...
    That's the AI 99% of the time, so where's the problem?

  • daelin4#9896daelin4#9896 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,521


    Sure if your reinforcements come in from the same direction, if the AI is hiding in a town or that 1 time a campaign the AI will actually fight 2 of your stacks at once.

    For the rest of the time having to do that is just tedium.

    I believe in the case of Isabella and Vlad, you gain a bonus from the "combo" by having them reinforce eachother as a result of placing their armies next to eachother in the campaign map, not their models being next to eachother in battle mode.

    In any event I can make the similar argument that having all the Dwarf characters in one army has a certain appeal.

    From a more adventurous standpoint, maybe next TW title characters can be recruited as Lord OR as an agent so that you can literally play the same character twice in two very different contexts.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Arthas_Menethil#3421Arthas_Menethil#3421 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,368
    Would have preferred if Vlad and Isabella had the unique ability to join the others army.
    Otherwise if something similar happens to other heroes like Ludwig Schwarzhelm for example it wouldn't make much sense.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806

    LH implementation wouldnt work due to the transient nature of heroes. As someone else pointed out we need to prevent herohammer not encourge it.

    Quite the opposite. Herohammer was a thing in WFB and it was a good thing. I strongly advise doing same thing here.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    LH implementation wouldnt work due to the transient nature of heroes. As someone else pointed out we need to prevent herohammer not encourge it.

    Quite the opposite. Herohammer was a thing in WFB and it was a good thing. I strongly advise doing same thing here.
    No, it was a garbage thing. Some people would like their regular troops to actually have a point to be on the battlefield, thank you.
  • corvus_codex#4567corvus_codex#4567 Junior Member SpainRegistered Users Posts: 3,073
    edited July 2017
    Guys, chill out, including LH in the game wouldn convert the game in herohammer or whatever,

    we are talking about adding some heroes, which are a little better, or just start with a higher level, they will have a tree of skills different from the heroes of their class, and a different model, maybe 1 LH per faction, 3 maximun,

    no real difference from we have now.

    Also if this were raised, I am sure that it would come with some limitations and a new balance.
    image
    "I am the harbinger of your demise. I am the nightmare in all mortals. I am the thing you fear the most. I am death..."
    —Valkia the Bloody.
  • Arthas_Menethil#3421Arthas_Menethil#3421 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,368
    with LH I would say if MP battles limit it to 1 LH per army so they can't be spammed if a faction has multiple. while Custom really should have zero rules since it's pretty much used for testing. For Campaign I don't know because some factions throw balance out of the window *cough* WE *cough* with certain things.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • LeBonSaucissonLeBonSaucisson Registered Users Posts: 15
    For the lizardmen I have two in mind :
    Oxyotl that goes well with the two assassins from the first post, he is a super badass cameleon skin that came back from the realm of chaos where he was trapped since the coming of chaos. He killed thousands of daemon with his blowpipe and he came back with some super nasty poisons.
    Nakai the wanderer : he is a white kroxigor, so favored by the gods, that show only before battle, in time of need to help the lizardmen, he is hudge with plates armor in gold and extremely skilled, it's basically the green knight or grombridal but for lizard.
    They are a looooooooooot more very cool lizardmen legendary hero but these are the two that can't ever be a general, the others are : gor-rok he usually lead army, chakax is always with a slan, tetto'eko has is unit of teradon riders (probably going to be a regiment of renown) tiktaq'to can also lead army if he wants.
  • SoftisSoftis Registered Users Posts: 34
    I would love to see legendary heroes with their own quests and abilities. They should either be really rare but that would prob. just lead to a boring mechanic of every player checking the recruitment pool every turn or instead either make them recruitable through an event that pops up or have certain requirements that need to me met before they become available.

    On another note I really want all heroes to have the option of joining a regiment like in TT. some heroes like for example the empire captain should benefit more from this giving buffs etc. to the unit.
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