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Well chaos fighting each other for the 1/3 of the game does not sound good to me. I already get bored playing chaos campaign in the old world since 1/3 of the game if fighting norsca.
Yah but this is what you're going to be doing against norscans too, and what happened with Empire.. kind of anyway.
Two possibilities to offset that though:
1. You don't have to fight them to become undivided, you can just go and attack non-chaos right then and there, tho it's harder. 2. You can start the campaign as Undivided already and you get all the subfaction chaos LLs via favor system after killing non-chaos
Favour system similar but more in depth of the norsca faction would be ideal. Of course I am not saying chaos should not fight other chaos forces, on the contrary similar to the what we have at the moment when your forces of be it chaos demons of chaos humans should be challenged by god specific armies towards to end of the game. If you choose the favour of one god over others, the armies of the god you chose could be said to come and test you his rivals come to kill you. If you went undivided all chaos gods armies should come to test (kill) you.
Maybe you can chose to be tested early or late, depending on when you challenge them. If you challenge the pantheon early, then the humans are much harder, and vice versa. I suppose that's obvious though.
They are not *always* at war with each other. Given certain circumstances the armies of the gods can fight with each other. A greater daemon can have the power to bind and command the lesser daemons of other gods to fight for them or make a pact with a greater daemon of another god to temporarily work in concert for a price.
Yeah, I mean, hell there was even an instance in 40k (might be one in fantasy too) where a tzeentch daemon army litterally helped an order styled army to fight off other chaos. They are very selective, but there definitely are a ton of times where they also worked together instead of against one another.
I'm all for 4 different chaos factions. If you ain't then you can just "giiiit out!" Realistcly though, it would be boring for just One chaos faction when we could have 5!
I mean even chaos god subfactions fight amongst themselves, it's not like rivalries aren't settled by battle even within each god's legions.
Maybe it could go like this: Chaos god subfaction (there are several in the wastes) you become supreme chaos god faction (all LLs for said god work under you) then you fight the other four then if you beat them into submission submission you can go undivided
Well chaos fighting each other for the 1/3 of the game does not sound good to me. I already get bored playing chaos campaign in the old world since 1/3 of the game if fighting norsca.
Favour system similar but more in depth of the norsca faction would be ideal. Of course I am not saying chaos should not fight other chaos forces, on the contrary similar to the what we have at the moment when your forces of be it chaos demons of chaos humans should be challenged by god specific armies towards to end of the game. If you choose the favour of one god over others, the armies of the god you chose could be said to come and test you his rivals come to kill you. If you went undivided all chaos gods armies should come to test (kill) you.
The minor legendary lords of the chaos factions could be added in the future dlcs.
I don't want gods armies chasing me, that's kinda immersion breaking to me if another army of chaos is more focused on killing me than the empire, and get's itself wiped out. I want to have to avoid em or watch my back around them. "unpredictable" I'd call it, but hardcoding them to enemies everytime to me is just meh.
Well chaos could pull something like that at the last moment. When the player pretty much defeats all the order forces the god you have least favour with can suddenly decide to attack you. And/or even your patron god might want to test you. It will be a nice very end game mechanic if done correctly.
They are the chaos gods in the end, like you said something unexpected should happen.
Well chaos fighting each other for the 1/3 of the game does not sound good to me. I already get bored playing chaos campaign in the old world since 1/3 of the game if fighting norsca.
Yah but this is what you're going to be doing against norscans too, and what happened with Empire.. kind of anyway.
Two possibilities to offset that though:
1. You don't have to fight them to become undivided, you can just go and attack non-chaos right then and there, tho it's harder. 2. You can start the campaign as Undivided already and you get all the subfaction chaos LLs via favor system after killing non-chaos
Favour system similar but more in depth of the norsca faction would be ideal. Of course I am not saying chaos should not fight other chaos forces, on the contrary similar to the what we have at the moment when your forces of be it chaos demons of chaos humans should be challenged by god specific armies towards to end of the game. If you choose the favour of one god over others, the armies of the god you chose could be said to come and test you his rivals come to kill you. If you went undivided all chaos gods armies should come to test (kill) you.
Maybe you can chose to be tested early or late, depending on when you challenge them. If you challenge the pantheon early, then the humans are much harder, and vice versa. I suppose that's obvious though.
No, I'm agreeing with you, they are not all a bunch of mindless orks.
oh I did agree with you I was just expounding on how it might be done is all
I do like the idea of choosing when to be tested but the gods are not called chaos gods for no reasons. This test could be very unpredictable.
The god you have the least favour with and/or maybe even your own patron god could send forces to kill you. If done right it might be a very nice game mechanic. The armies they send could be weaker or stronger depending the on which turn they do it. It will also change things up for multiple campaign plays. The rewards of the tests could also differ.
I do like the idea of choosing when to be tested but the gods are not called chaos gods for no reasons. This test could be very unpredictable.
The god you have the least favour with and/or maybe even your own patron god could send forces to kill you. If done right it might be a very nice game mechanic. The armies they send could be weaker or stronger depending the on which turn they do it. It will also change things up for multiple campaign plays. The rewards of the tests could also differ.
yeah that would be cool, you never know when they would come for you, it would be awesome if it's randomized. I think a very deep intra-chaos wars mechanics and a well done chaos wastes could make it worth $60, especially w/ a well done chaos dwarves and ogres
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As has been said multiple times before... The different Chaos armies just don't have enough differentiation to justify being the whole course for game 3, at least not without bringing in AoS material (which is problematic for a number of reasons). Marks on the tabletop could bring some differentiation, but they're basically just changing the special rules on what are effectively the same units.
Slotting them all in the place of two races rather than all four... might work. It still makes game 3 bad-guy-heavy, but the datamine suggests that CA has at least seriously considered it.
As much as this roster looks really interesting with an interesting play style, that you're correct doesn't play like empire, the only new skeleton in can see are the bears and maybe strelsi. That's what I mean when it's a half faction, most of the work is reskins of empire units like knights, infantry, luminark for the war wagons etc. Even the new lore wouldn't be too hard to add, seeing as they have frost textures with norsca and the first heart Phoenix.
That's why I would suggest that my proposal of chaos divided is more like 1.5 factions. You have the entire daemons of chaos roster, plus the other half of the warriors of chaos roster, plus some some more units from sources like forgeworld as the other 0.5.
So with Kislev acting more of 0.5 roster content wise (models, skeletons etc), and chaos divided as a 1.5 roster content wise, and Chaos dwarfs and ogre kingdoms as full factions, you have, in my eyes, the same content as the four starting factions of games one and two.
Frankly, I'm looking at that and seeing a "Like the Empire with some unit substitutions" list. Uruguan Cannons fulfill a similar role to Volley Guns. Bear Riders (Sons of Ursa?) are effectively demigryphs. War Wagons would likely be similar to Steam Tanks in behaviour. The rest... well, you're basically looking at a similar mix of infantry and cavalry. You'd end up with largely the same strengths, weaknesses, and tactics of the Empire, except that you have less artillery, more light cavalry, and better hybrid infantry options.
The pro Chaos people on here really don't seem to understand.
They keep saying, yeah but chaos is diverse! They can look different from each other and have different abilities. That may be true, but it's 100% missing the point.
It would be comparable to if they made a WWI strategy game. And in the WW1 game you could play as the U.S., or the Ottomans, or the Germans, or the British.
Then they made a WWII sequel. And in the sequel you could ONLY play as the Nazis at launch. But really diverse and complicated Nazis. Like you could have a Rommel/Panzer faction and a Luftwaffe faction, and a SS faction and a.....who gives a **** ? It's still just Nazis! It doesn't matter how different or how much infighting you put in. People will want the option to play as things besides Nazis.
In that scenario, I 100% promise you, the WW1 game would appeal to way more people and sell more copies than that WW2 game. CA likely knows this as well....so yeah, just letting you know to get ready now....there will probably only be one Nazi/Chaos faction at launch for game 3. Not because CA hates you. But because anything else would probably cut their sales in half.
I mean, breattonia and empire, both are human, both are order factions, yet both are completely different. Same can be said for the chaos gods factions.
Yeah and a game would be equally challenged for sales if it was all various Empire electors.
Or if it was all Bretonnian dukes.
Heck, even a game that was only Kislev, Empire, Bretonnia, and Border Princes would struggle with sales due to lack of diversity.
It's just, people aren't asking for an all human game. Or an all elf game. They are however, asking for an all chaos game. So yeah, that's the example we're working with. But yes, you're right, an all human game would be almost as stupid in a fantasy setting.
The pro Chaos people on here really don't seem to understand.
They keep saying, yeah but chaos is diverse! They can look different from each other and have different abilities. That may be true, but it's 100% missing the point.
It would be comparable to if they made a WWI strategy game. And in the WW1 game you could play as the U.S., or the Ottomans, or the Germans, or the British.
Then they made a WWII sequel. And in the sequel you could ONLY play as the Nazis at launch. But really diverse and complicated Nazis. Like you could have a Rommel/Panzer faction and a Luftwaffe faction, and a SS faction and a.....who gives a **** ? It's still just Nazis! It doesn't matter how different or how much infighting you put in. People will want the option to play as things besides Nazis.
In that scenario, I 100% promise you, the WW1 game would appeal to way more people and sell more copies than that WW2 game. CA likely knows this as well....so yeah, just letting you know to get ready now....there will probably only be one Nazi/Chaos faction at launch for game 3. Not because CA hates you. But because anything else would probably cut their sales in half.
It really is strange how these Warhammer people just do not understand.
This is classic echo chamber thought process. This is the forum for the most dedicated 1% of fans and they forget that even if 60% of the players on the forums think something it is still an extremely small sample size.
I try to explain something and their response is that I am not enough of a fan so my opinion doesn't matter... It is like arguing with a brick wall...
The pro Chaos people on here really don't seem to understand.
They keep saying, yeah but chaos is diverse! They can look different from each other and have different abilities. That may be true, but it's 100% missing the point.
It would be comparable to if they made a WWI strategy game. And in the WW1 game you could play as the U.S., or the Ottomans, or the Germans, or the British.
Then they made a WWII sequel. And in the sequel you could ONLY play as the Nazis at launch. But really diverse and complicated Nazis. Like you could have a Rommel/Panzer faction and a Luftwaffe faction, and a SS faction and a.....who gives a **** ? It's still just Nazis! It doesn't matter how different or how much infighting you put in. People will want the option to play as things besides Nazis.
In that scenario, I 100% promise you, the WW1 game would appeal to way more people and sell more copies than that WW2 game. CA likely knows this as well....so yeah, just letting you know to get ready now....there will probably only be one Nazi/Chaos faction at launch for game 3. Not because CA hates you. But because anything else would probably cut their sales in half.
It really is strange how these Warhammer people just do not understand.
This is classic echo chamber thought process. This is the forum for the most dedicated 1% of fans and they forget that even if 60% of the players on the forums think something it is still an extremely small sample size.
I try to explain something and their response is that I am not enough of a fan so my opinion doesn't matter... It is like arguing with a brick wall...
But its true, It is really strange how you don't understand that.
Curious, what that is supposed to mean? The truth about the echo chamber? The truth about how small the forum sample size is?
What do you guys think a $60, let alone $45-60 game could even be? If it *isn't* a chaos focused game, and also chaos dwarves and ogres, what else can it be? I doubt Cathay or whatever would be a main star. That's something way off and only if CA is particularly brave etc.
5900x @ stock , 4x8gb 3600mhz 14-16-16-36
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4TB Sabrent NVMe SSD PCIe 4.0 w/ Windows 10 Pro 64bit
I mean, breattonia and empire, both are human, both are order factions, yet both are completely different. Same can be said for the chaos gods factions.
Except that, in 8E WFB, they're not. The distinctions are the demonic units (roughly half a dozen per god, including the Hellstriders and Skullcrushers), the Chaos lore used, and which special rule the marks give to mortals. That's about it.
It really is strange how these Warhammer people just do not understand.
This is classic echo chamber thought process. This is the forum for the most dedicated 1% of fans and they forget that even if 60% of the players on the forums think something it is still an extremely small sample size.
I try to explain something and their response is that I am not enough of a fan so my opinion doesn't matter... It is like arguing with a brick wall...
From a business perspective, it makes perfect sense. You can make 4-5 races out of 2 and some remodeling/rework. Then you would also have 1-2 more races for DLC. Considering that Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs have a small pool of LL's to choose from, it would make sense to have DoC/WoC be the main focus. DoC and WoC both have quite the healthy selection of LL's to choose from to make lord packs for additional DLC/FLC down the line.
The pro Chaos people on here really don't seem to understand.
They keep saying, yeah but chaos is diverse! They can look different from each other and have different abilities. That may be true, but it's 100% missing the point.
It would be comparable to if they made a WWI strategy game. And in the WW1 game you could play as the U.S., or the Ottomans, or the Germans, or the British.
Then they made a WWII sequel. And in the sequel you could ONLY play as the Nazis at launch. But really diverse and complicated Nazis. Like you could have a Rommel/Panzer faction and a Luftwaffe faction, and a SS faction and a.....who gives a **** ? It's still just Nazis! It doesn't matter how different or how much infighting you put in. People will want the option to play as things besides Nazis.
In that scenario, I 100% promise you, the WW1 game would appeal to way more people and sell more copies than that WW2 game. CA likely knows this as well....so yeah, just letting you know to get ready now....there will probably only be one Nazi/Chaos faction at launch for game 3. Not because CA hates you. But because anything else would probably cut their sales in half.
It really is strange how these Warhammer people just do not understand.
This is classic echo chamber thought process. This is the forum for the most dedicated 1% of fans and they forget that even if 60% of the players on the forums think something it is still an extremely small sample size.
I try to explain something and their response is that I am not enough of a fan so my opinion doesn't matter... It is like arguing with a brick wall...
What you total war players don't seem to get is that this series is for all intent and purposes the last goodbye for warhammer fantasy, after this it's done. The ip has been canned by games workshop, leaving many of the fans of the ip in the dust. Some people have been playing for a very long time and this is all they have left.
You act as if we (or at least i do) don't understand were you are coming from. However we have our favorite faction and we want them implemented to the best ca can do. But coming here with that condescending 'these warhammer people' additude isn't fair for one and two is arrogant as hell. So far pretty much everyone has respectfully disagreed with you. As far as us not understanding, it's more like you refuse to see our point of view. Imagine if someone with a phd in history was arguing with a high school drop out that world war one never happened, ridiculous right? That's what it feels like to some of us who have been following the ip for a long enough time to argue lore with someone who has a minimal understanding of it.
And to continue with the world war one analogy.
You can have Germany with the best biplanes or the Austro-Hungarians with the best guns or the British have the best ships, but who gives a **** they're all just humans shooting guns at one another in holes they dug in the ground. Literally the same thing can be said about the whole damn total war franchise. Before you get carried away, i actually really like the total war franchise, med 2 is definitely one of the best strategy games of all time. But let's be real here, faction diversity in the historical games is pretty mediocre.
I mean, breattonia and empire, both are human, both are order factions, yet both are completely different. Same can be said for the chaos gods factions.
Except that, in 8E WFB, they're not. The distinctions are the demonic units (roughly half a dozen per god, including the Hellstriders and Skullcrushers), the Chaos lore used, and which special rule the marks give to mortals. That's about it.
Damn it bro. Apparetnly I need to word my stuff better. I think each chaos god should be like its own race nearly because of how much of a difference in lets say Khorne from Tzeentch, or Nurgle from Slaneesh. I specifically want 5 races. 6 if you count the renegade Who hates all other gods. Malal I believe they can all be made unique regardless of the fact that they all serve a chaos god. To me its the chaos god they serve that makes them all different and unique. You can't mistake Nurgle for khorne. Undived for slannesh for a reason lol. Only people who don't want it just need to read some more lore to see that it can be done.
I was using that as an example. Apparently a poor example.
Malal isn't possible for IP reasons - GW lost the IP when the writer left.
On the rest: It certainly is possible to distinguish the armies of the different Chaos gods. Age of Sigmar actually gives an example: the Disciples of Tzeentch has a very different feel to the Blades of Khorne, and I suspect they'll go towards doing the same thing for Nurgle and Slaanesh as they go through the pipeline.
However, this does not change the fact that, for the twenty years or so that I was engaged in the hobby, the mortal forces of Chaos - including both humans and Beastmen here - were basically identical between the gods apart from the special rule of the marks. Now, the marks have changed in what they granted over the years, and in some editions they've changed the way the units play more than others, but when push came to shove, a Chaos Warrior unit was a Chaos Warrior unit, a Marauder unit was a Marauder unit, a Bestigor unit was a Bestigor unit, and so on, regardless which which god they followed.
Personally, I've always considered this to be a bit silly - Marauders, Chaos Warriors, and so on generally tended to feel more Khornate to me while the other Chaos gods would probably be more likely to push their followers into a direction apart from a (virtually) all-melee horde with the elite soldiers sealed into their armour. But that's the way it was done from 5E up to the release of the Disciples of Tzeentch list for AoS earlier this year.
With this being the case, there are three possible approaches to doing the god armies:
1) They just split the Demons up, creating lists with about six units each. 2) They merge the Demons with Warriors, and possibly Beastmen as well. This would make lists where about a half-dozen units for each list are unique, and the rest are differentiated mostly by the mark. 3) They go well outside the 8E army books and produce new units to keep the god armies distinct.
The first option is one that I don't think anybody really takes seriously.
The second option... well, that comes back to my earlier point. These lists are going to feel more like subfactions than full independent factions. A unit of Chaos Warriors, Knights, Marauders or whatever isn't really going to feel substantially different in role because it has a ward save (Tzeentch) instead of a cloud of flies that makes it harder to hit (Nurgle).
Finally, championing the third option is accepting that there will be new units created for TWW that were not in the tabletop. If they're creating new units (or units that haven't existed since 4E), then they're having to dig into some very obscure parts of the lore - once you're going that obscure already, I don't think some of the other suggestions that some people have been denigrating due to being obscure, such as Cathay, are that unreasonable in comparison. One approach that would have a greater degree of legitimacy is leaning on AoS lists. From Games Workshop's perspective, this would probably be a good thing - it would help promote the god armies they're making for AoS, and because of Chaos's time weirdness, they could say that they'd always envisaged the armies of Chaos having that greater degree of distinction but were never able to implement it into the tabletop (and it might even be true!). However, given the hatred some people have for anything AoS, this could be a controversial move in itself.
I mean, breattonia and empire, both are human, both are order factions, yet both are completely different. Same can be said for the chaos gods factions.
Except that, in 8E WFB, they're not. The distinctions are the demonic units (roughly half a dozen per god, including the Hellstriders and Skullcrushers), the Chaos lore used, and which special rule the marks give to mortals. That's about it.
Damn it bro. Apparetnly I need to word my stuff better. I think each chaos god should be like its own race nearly because of how much of a difference in lets say Khorne from Tzeentch, or Nurgle from Slaneesh. I specifically want 5 races. 6 if you count the renegade Who hates all other gods. Malal I believe they can all be made unique regardless of the fact that they all serve a chaos god. To me its the chaos god they serve that makes them all different and unique. You can't mistake Nurgle for khorne. Undived for slannesh for a reason lol. Only people who don't want it just need to read some more lore to see that it can be done.
I was using that as an example. Apparently a poor example.
Malal isn't possible for IP reasons - GW lost the IP when the writer left.
On the rest: It certainly is possible to distinguish the armies of the different Chaos gods. Age of Sigmar actually gives an example: the Disciples of Tzeentch has a very different feel to the Blades of Khorne, and I suspect they'll go towards doing the same thing for Nurgle and Slaanesh as they go through the pipeline.
However, this does not change the fact that, for the twenty years or so that I was engaged in the hobby, the mortal forces of Chaos - including both humans and Beastmen here - were basically identical between the gods apart from the special rule of the marks. Now, the marks have changed in what they granted over the years, and in some editions they've changed the way the units play more than others, but when push came to shove, a Chaos Warrior unit was a Chaos Warrior unit, a Marauder unit was a Marauder unit, a Bestigor unit was a Bestigor unit, and so on, regardless which which god they followed.
Personally, I've always considered this to be a bit silly - Marauders, Chaos Warriors, and so on generally tended to feel more Khornate to me while the other Chaos gods would probably be more likely to push their followers into a direction apart from a (virtually) all-melee horde with the elite soldiers sealed into their armour. But that's the way it was done from 5E up to the release of the Disciples of Tzeentch list for AoS earlier this year.
With this being the case, there are three possible approaches to doing the god armies:
1) They just split the Demons up, creating lists with about six units each. 2) They merge the Demons with Warriors, and possibly Beastmen as well. This would make lists where about a half-dozen units for each list are unique, and the rest are differentiated mostly by the mark. 3) They go well outside the 8E army books and produce new units to keep the god armies distinct.
The first option is one that I don't think anybody really takes seriously.
The second option... well, that comes back to my earlier point. These lists are going to feel more like subfactions than full independent factions. A unit of Chaos Warriors, Knights, Marauders or whatever isn't really going to feel substantially different in role because it has a ward save (Tzeentch) instead of a cloud of flies that makes it harder to hit (Nurgle).
Finally, championing the third option is accepting that there will be new units created for TWW that were not in the tabletop. If they're creating new units (or units that haven't existed since 4E), then they're having to dig into some very obscure parts of the lore - once you're going that obscure already, I don't think some of the other suggestions that some people have been denigrating due to being obscure, such as Cathay, are that unreasonable in comparison. One approach that would have a greater degree of legitimacy is leaning on AoS lists. From Games Workshop's perspective, this would probably be a good thing - it would help promote the god armies they're making for AoS, and because of Chaos's time weirdness, they could say that they'd always envisaged the armies of Chaos having that greater degree of distinction but were never able to implement it into the tabletop (and it might even be true!). However, given the hatred some people have for anything AoS, this could be a controversial move in itself.
They really wouldn't have to try that hard to find unique units. I know the lore well, but only the more recent stuff, and it didn't take me long to find the units to create the roster. The number of unique units for the gods are 13/30 nurgle, 14/28 khorne, 12/30 tzeentch, 13/30 slaanesh. That's excluding things that share animations really, so I didn't include the different warriors or lords. I even excluded lords of change as they are already in game.
You can say that the difference on gameplay is minimal, which I personally disagree with, but I wouldn't ignore the amount of work required and unique units.
I'm not saying that the 4 chaos god factions should be the only factions for game 2, but maybe it could count as 2 or 1.5, with CD, OK and a smaller faction like Kislev to complete the game. If TK get added in game 2 then I don't really see a viable united native without ending up with 3 factions.
Not including characters, here are the unique units I see from your list:
Khorne: Wrathmongers (End Times) Skullreapers (End Times) Bloodletters Skullcrushers (which you didn't include, probably because they fulfill a similar role to bloodcrushers) Bloodcrushers Flesh Hounds Skullcannon
I'll allow the Slaughterbrute, since while it's not specified as a Khornate unit, its theme is very Khorne-like.
Total: 8/17. However, this doesn't include weapon variants on the Marauders and Chaos Warriors, which will bring the second number up. In fact, it would have to,
Allowing the Vortex Beast for a similar reason as the Slaughterbrute.
For the sake of discussion, I'll allow chimerae and Chaos Dragons due to the link with Galrauch. I'm inclined to think that both are more generic, however
Total: 9/18, again not including weapon variants. 7/18 if you don't count chimerae and Chaos Dragons.
Nurgle: Putrid Blightkings (End Times) Plaguebearers Nurglings (although I don't expect them ingame, CA isn't doing swarms) Plague Drones Plague Toads Pox Riders Plague Cannon (new unit?) Beast of Nurgle Bile Troll Plague Ogres (were these in Tamurkhan?) Toad Dragon
Total: 11/18, again not including weapon variations.
Slaanesh: Daemonettes Hellstriders Seekers Seeker Chariot Fiend of Slaanesh Hellflayer
No, unless there's something I haven't seen, you can't insert the Warpfire Dragon. It's certainly mutated, but there's nothing connecting it to Slaanesh.
Total: 6/16, same caveat as above.
Characters I don't see as making a big difference to how the faction plays - or rather, it's on the level of having a different Legendary Lord.
The only one of these that I think even has a chance of standing on its own is the Nurgle list, and that's because of Tamurkhan providing a Nurgle-specific list. And that's even with you having bulked out a couple of them using End Times units, when CA has said they're not using End Times material (although admittedly, that may have changed).
Incidentally, in my mind, it's not a matter of animations. It's a question of whether they play substantially different from one another, and the difference across armies is more significant than whether someone considers a particular unit to be god-specific or not. Even if I didn't object to warpfire dragons, for instance, is using a warpfire dragon in a Slaanesh army really going to feel different to using a chaos dragon in a Tzeentch army? When push comes to shove, with the possible exception of the Tzeentch army with demons that employ ranged attacks, are any of these armies really going to feel substantially different to the classic WoC list, or are they just going to feel like using slightly different tools to enact the same tactics?
I mean, breattonia and empire, both are human, both are order factions, yet both are completely different. Same can be said for the chaos gods factions.
Yeah and a game would be equally challenged for sales if it was all various Empire electors.
Or if it was all Bretonnian dukes.
Heck, even a game that was only Kislev, Empire, Bretonnia, and Border Princes would struggle with sales due to lack of diversity.
It's just, people aren't asking for an all human game. Or an all elf game. They are however, asking for an all chaos game. So yeah, that's the example we're working with. But yes, you're right, an all human game would almost as stupid in a fantasy setting.
But, I want my chaos gods!!!! Honestly I would be kinda ok with it if they did mountains of morn with cathay stuff. I'd still miss my Chaos gods factions though.
Ok, so its clear yah don't want em all in base game, butttt, would you be okay with them as dlc?
Yes exactly. Undivided deamons of Chaos in the base game and Lord Packs DLC featuring Chaos Gods specific LLs and units is in the realm of possibilities right?
The pro Chaos people on here really don't seem to understand.
They keep saying, yeah but chaos is diverse! They can look different from each other and have different abilities. That may be true, but it's 100% missing the point.
It would be comparable to if they made a WWI strategy game. And in the WW1 game you could play as the U.S., or the Ottomans, or the Germans, or the British.
Then they made a WWII sequel. And in the sequel you could ONLY play as the Nazis at launch. But really diverse and complicated Nazis. Like you could have a Rommel/Panzer faction and a Luftwaffe faction, and a SS faction and a.....who gives a **** ? It's still just Nazis! It doesn't matter how different or how much infighting you put in. People will want the option to play as things besides Nazis.
In that scenario, I 100% promise you, the WW1 game would appeal to way more people and sell more copies than that WW2 game. CA likely knows this as well....so yeah, just letting you know to get ready now....there will probably only be one Nazi/Chaos faction at launch for game 3. Not because CA hates you. But because anything else would probably cut their sales in half.
It really is strange how these Warhammer people just do not understand.
This is classic echo chamber thought process. This is the forum for the most dedicated 1% of fans and they forget that even if 60% of the players on the forums think something it is still an extremely small sample size.
I try to explain something and their response is that I am not enough of a fan so my opinion doesn't matter... It is like arguing with a brick wall...
But its true, It is really strange how you don't understand that.
Curious, what that is supposed to mean? The truth about the echo chamber? The truth about how small the forum sample size is?
It's the irony. You can't say "echo chamber" and "people with a different opinion to me don't understand", when you're effectively doing the same thing. And by discussing and refuting points, we negate any illusion of 'echo chambers' anyway.
It's a discussion forum and we're discussing preferences. You and I have different ones for different reasons, it doesn't make either of us right or wrong
Merely talking with the other side doesn't mean you're out of the echo chamber, though. If you're just looking for holes to pick in the other side's arguments without actually giving their points due consideration, while applauding the people who agree with you, you're still effectively in the echo chamber (due to selection bias if nothing else).
Not that I'm saying you are. In fact, assuming the other side is in an echo chamber can be a sign that YOU are.
For me it is the only way to make Chaos interesting is to divide them up between the 4 gods...but on the other hand I sort of agree with people saying is 4 Chaos factions really enough to warrant a new third game?
"Furthermore i believe that Carthage must be destroyed" - Cato the Elder
"Furthermore I also believe that Chaos Dwarfs should have really big hats" - Langolier the middle aged
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0 · Disagree AgreeTwo possibilities to offset that though:
1. You don't have to fight them to become undivided, you can just go and attack non-chaos right then and there, tho it's harder.
2. You can start the campaign as Undivided already and you get all the subfaction chaos LLs via favor system after killing non-chaos Maybe you can chose to be tested early or late, depending on when you challenge them. If you challenge the pantheon early, then the humans are much harder, and vice versa. I suppose that's obvious though.
oh I did agree with you I was just expounding on how it might be done is all
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1 · Disagree AgreeThey are the chaos gods in the end, like you said something unexpected should happen.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThe god you have the least favour with and/or maybe even your own patron god could send forces to kill you. If done right it might be a very nice game mechanic. The armies they send could be weaker or stronger depending the on which turn they do it. It will also change things up for multiple campaign plays. The rewards of the tests could also differ.
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1 · Disagree AgreeASUS TUF 3080 12 GB
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1 · Disagree AgreeSlotting them all in the place of two races rather than all four... might work. It still makes game 3 bad-guy-heavy, but the datamine suggests that CA has at least seriously considered it. Frankly, I'm looking at that and seeing a "Like the Empire with some unit substitutions" list. Uruguan Cannons fulfill a similar role to Volley Guns. Bear Riders (Sons of Ursa?) are effectively demigryphs. War Wagons would likely be similar to Steam Tanks in behaviour. The rest... well, you're basically looking at a similar mix of infantry and cavalry. You'd end up with largely the same strengths, weaknesses, and tactics of the Empire, except that you have less artillery, more light cavalry, and better hybrid infantry options.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThey keep saying, yeah but chaos is diverse! They can look different from each other and have different abilities. That may be true, but it's 100% missing the point.
It would be comparable to if they made a WWI strategy game. And in the WW1 game you could play as the U.S., or the Ottomans, or the Germans, or the British.
Then they made a WWII sequel. And in the sequel you could ONLY play as the Nazis at launch. But really diverse and complicated Nazis. Like you could have a Rommel/Panzer faction and a Luftwaffe faction, and a SS faction and a.....who gives a **** ? It's still just Nazis! It doesn't matter how different or how much infighting you put in. People will want the option to play as things besides Nazis.
In that scenario, I 100% promise you, the WW1 game would appeal to way more people and sell more copies than that WW2 game. CA likely knows this as well....so yeah, just letting you know to get ready now....there will probably only be one Nazi/Chaos faction at launch for game 3. Not because CA hates you. But because anything else would probably cut their sales in half.
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2 · Disagree AgreeOr if it was all Bretonnian dukes.
Heck, even a game that was only Kislev, Empire, Bretonnia, and Border Princes would struggle with sales due to lack of diversity.
It's just, people aren't asking for an all human game. Or an all elf game. They are however, asking for an all chaos game. So yeah, that's the example we're working with. But yes, you're right, an all human game would be almost as stupid in a fantasy setting.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThis is classic echo chamber thought process. This is the forum for the most dedicated 1% of fans and they forget that even if 60% of the players on the forums think something it is still an extremely small sample size.
I try to explain something and their response is that I am not enough of a fan so my opinion doesn't matter... It is like arguing with a brick wall...
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0 · Disagree AgreeThe truth about how small the forum sample size is?
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0 · Disagree AgreeASUS TUF 3080 12 GB
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0 · Disagree AgreeFrom a business perspective, it makes perfect sense. You can make 4-5 races out of 2 and some remodeling/rework. Then you would also have 1-2 more races for DLC. Considering that Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs have a small pool of LL's to choose from, it would make sense to have DoC/WoC be the main focus. DoC and WoC both have quite the healthy selection of LL's to choose from to make lord packs for additional DLC/FLC down the line.
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0 · Disagree AgreeYou act as if we (or at least i do) don't understand were you are coming from. However we have our favorite faction and we want them implemented to the best ca can do. But coming here with that condescending 'these warhammer people' additude isn't fair for one and two is arrogant as hell. So far pretty much everyone has respectfully disagreed with you. As far as us not understanding, it's more like you refuse to see our point of view. Imagine if someone with a phd in history was arguing with a high school drop out that world war one never happened, ridiculous right? That's what it feels like to some of us who have been following the ip for a long enough time to argue lore with someone who has a minimal understanding of it.
And to continue with the world war one analogy.
You can have Germany with the best biplanes or the Austro-Hungarians with the best guns or the British have the best ships, but who gives a **** they're all just humans shooting guns at one another in holes they dug in the ground. Literally the same thing can be said about the whole damn total war franchise. Before you get carried away, i actually really like the total war franchise, med 2 is definitely one of the best strategy games of all time. But let's be real here, faction diversity in the historical games is pretty mediocre.
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0 · Disagree AgreeOn the rest: It certainly is possible to distinguish the armies of the different Chaos gods. Age of Sigmar actually gives an example: the Disciples of Tzeentch has a very different feel to the Blades of Khorne, and I suspect they'll go towards doing the same thing for Nurgle and Slaanesh as they go through the pipeline.
However, this does not change the fact that, for the twenty years or so that I was engaged in the hobby, the mortal forces of Chaos - including both humans and Beastmen here - were basically identical between the gods apart from the special rule of the marks. Now, the marks have changed in what they granted over the years, and in some editions they've changed the way the units play more than others, but when push came to shove, a Chaos Warrior unit was a Chaos Warrior unit, a Marauder unit was a Marauder unit, a Bestigor unit was a Bestigor unit, and so on, regardless which which god they followed.
Personally, I've always considered this to be a bit silly - Marauders, Chaos Warriors, and so on generally tended to feel more Khornate to me while the other Chaos gods would probably be more likely to push their followers into a direction apart from a (virtually) all-melee horde with the elite soldiers sealed into their armour. But that's the way it was done from 5E up to the release of the Disciples of Tzeentch list for AoS earlier this year.
With this being the case, there are three possible approaches to doing the god armies:
1) They just split the Demons up, creating lists with about six units each.
2) They merge the Demons with Warriors, and possibly Beastmen as well. This would make lists where about a half-dozen units for each list are unique, and the rest are differentiated mostly by the mark.
3) They go well outside the 8E army books and produce new units to keep the god armies distinct.
The first option is one that I don't think anybody really takes seriously.
The second option... well, that comes back to my earlier point. These lists are going to feel more like subfactions than full independent factions. A unit of Chaos Warriors, Knights, Marauders or whatever isn't really going to feel substantially different in role because it has a ward save (Tzeentch) instead of a cloud of flies that makes it harder to hit (Nurgle).
Finally, championing the third option is accepting that there will be new units created for TWW that were not in the tabletop. If they're creating new units (or units that haven't existed since 4E), then they're having to dig into some very obscure parts of the lore - once you're going that obscure already, I don't think some of the other suggestions that some people have been denigrating due to being obscure, such as Cathay, are that unreasonable in comparison. One approach that would have a greater degree of legitimacy is leaning on AoS lists. From Games Workshop's perspective, this would probably be a good thing - it would help promote the god armies they're making for AoS, and because of Chaos's time weirdness, they could say that they'd always envisaged the armies of Chaos having that greater degree of distinction but were never able to implement it into the tabletop (and it might even be true!). However, given the hatred some people have for anything AoS, this could be a controversial move in itself.
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0 · Disagree AgreeKhorne:
Wrathmongers (End Times)
Skullreapers (End Times)
Bloodletters
Skullcrushers (which you didn't include, probably because they fulfill a similar role to bloodcrushers)
Bloodcrushers
Flesh Hounds
Skullcannon
I'll allow the Slaughterbrute, since while it's not specified as a Khornate unit, its theme is very Khorne-like.
Total: 8/17. However, this doesn't include weapon variants on the Marauders and Chaos Warriors, which will bring the second number up. In fact, it would have to,
Tzeentch:
Pink Horrors
Flamers
Burning Chariot
Screamer
Sorcerer-Acolyte (new unit?)
Mutalith Vortex Beast
Allowing the Vortex Beast for a similar reason as the Slaughterbrute.
For the sake of discussion, I'll allow chimerae and Chaos Dragons due to the link with Galrauch. I'm inclined to think that both are more generic, however
Total: 9/18, again not including weapon variants. 7/18 if you don't count chimerae and Chaos Dragons.
Nurgle:
Putrid Blightkings (End Times)
Plaguebearers
Nurglings (although I don't expect them ingame, CA isn't doing swarms)
Plague Drones
Plague Toads
Pox Riders
Plague Cannon (new unit?)
Beast of Nurgle
Bile Troll
Plague Ogres (were these in Tamurkhan?)
Toad Dragon
Total: 11/18, again not including weapon variations.
Slaanesh:
Daemonettes
Hellstriders
Seekers
Seeker Chariot
Fiend of Slaanesh
Hellflayer
No, unless there's something I haven't seen, you can't insert the Warpfire Dragon. It's certainly mutated, but there's nothing connecting it to Slaanesh.
Total: 6/16, same caveat as above.
Characters I don't see as making a big difference to how the faction plays - or rather, it's on the level of having a different Legendary Lord.
The only one of these that I think even has a chance of standing on its own is the Nurgle list, and that's because of Tamurkhan providing a Nurgle-specific list. And that's even with you having bulked out a couple of them using End Times units, when CA has said they're not using End Times material (although admittedly, that may have changed).
Incidentally, in my mind, it's not a matter of animations. It's a question of whether they play substantially different from one another, and the difference across armies is more significant than whether someone considers a particular unit to be god-specific or not. Even if I didn't object to warpfire dragons, for instance, is using a warpfire dragon in a Slaanesh army really going to feel different to using a chaos dragon in a Tzeentch army? When push comes to shove, with the possible exception of the Tzeentch army with demons that employ ranged attacks, are any of these armies really going to feel substantially different to the classic WoC list, or are they just going to feel like using slightly different tools to enact the same tactics?
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2 · Disagree AgreeIt's a discussion forum and we're discussing preferences. You and I have different ones for different reasons, it doesn't make either of us right or wrong
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1 · Disagree AgreeNot that I'm saying you are. In fact, assuming the other side is in an echo chamber can be a sign that YOU are.
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0 · Disagree Agree"Furthermore I also believe that Chaos Dwarfs should have really big hats" - Langolier the middle aged
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