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One thing that we may see in game 2 which I didn't address in my op is that we could get daemons of chaos in game 2 as dlc. They said they would add 4 LL to faction dlc in game 2, which works well for daemons, and pure daemon factions makes sense in lustria.
That is a valid point that's been missed in game 2 DLC speculations.
I think most people are assuming it'd be too many charlemagnes to be a DLC, but there probably is a lot that can be done on existing skeletons.
Merely talking with the other side doesn't mean you're out of the echo chamber, though. If you're just looking for holes to pick in the other side's arguments without actually giving their points due consideration, while applauding the people who agree with you, you're still effectively in the echo chamber (due to selection bias if nothing else).
Not that I'm saying you are. In fact, assuming the other side is in an echo chamber can be a sign that YOU are.
Feel free to believe what you want, I'm just here to give a dose or reality and explain why this idea will not work.
But, saying we love chaos we eat and sleep chaos we lived chaos of 20 years does not really provide any logical or rational reasoning why they should release the game.
I understand the Warhammer Fans are very passionate about Warhammer. But there simply are not enough of you out there. If there were fantasy battle would still be going strong. Correct me if I am wrong but it is pretty much dead and all that's left of it is age of sigmar.
This is a total war first and formost, and as a long time Total War fan I can assure you that certain things work in total war and certain tings do not. Launching a full price game with 4 badguys who all have similar goals similar names but who happen to hate each other is not a good selling concept. This was billed as a fantasy game where you battle against varied and different races each with their own mechanics. Thus far it has delivered. This is nothing against chaos because a game that pitted wood elves vs high elves vs dark elves and focused on nothing but elf on elf combat wouldn't sell well either.
I'll end on this, have fun dreaming about what could be. But don't be surprised when the reality of economics gets in the way of that dream. Chaos will be a major factor in game 3. But the chances of getting a launch of nothing but 4 chaos Factions is extreamly low.
There is a much better chance that it launches with undivided and then has a dlc that has 4 LL one for each. Perhaps each LL has very strict recruitment limits and launches with a few unique units.
For me it is the only way to make Chaos interesting is to divide them up between the 4 gods...but on the other hand I sort of agree with people saying is 4 Chaos factions really enough to warrant a new third game?
If there was a whole campaign mechanic with say an end goal of creating Chaos Undivided and each faction has unique mechanics id say yes. The end result could be a WoC that is FAR more interesting than the afterthought we originally got.
For me it is the only way to make Chaos interesting is to divide them up between the 4 gods...but on the other hand I sort of agree with people saying is 4 Chaos factions really enough to warrant a new third game?
Just the four/chaos factions? Definitely not. But the 5 chaos factions, ogre kingdoms, chaos dwarfs, and maybe Kislev and/or Nagash, I think that would warrant a full game, if they included the proper territories, and some new global mechanics in a similar vein to rogue armies and ruins in game 2.
So you want 8 starting factions? This isn't going to happen. If they did that each faction would have 1/2 the work put into it that they deserve, I don't want 1/2 done factions like the Beastmen were. To make each chaos god as good as they should be with independent models and campaign mechanics there is no way they could do that and it's not a reasonable request to expect them to do so.
I see how some people can't fathom how a whole game could start as solely chaos but i think to make a compelling campaign focus, it makes sense to me. It looks like the Vortex focus for WH2 is going to be really fun so i'd like to continue this with WH3. Add these to the grand campaign and it would make chaos be the big bad they are meant to be. A threat to the entire WH world.
I think your 1.5 estimate is low considering were talking about Demons etc. This is why the Ghorgon was stated as not being in the Beastmen race pack ( i think it should have been, not another chaos giant ) These additional units being demons with different modes of movement etc are going to be much more expensive to model. Sure changing the skinning for say a Khorne Chosen compared to a Nurgle Chosen wouldn't be anywhere near the work, the different major and minor demons can be completely different. To do justice to chaos i think your 1.5 estimate is VERY low in comparison to how many of these special models there would be. My point is i don't want this 1/2 assed like beastmen. They did such a wonderful job with norsca yet the most grumbling ive seen so far is that they reused the chaos dragon model ( i also wish they had made a whole new model ).
It might work to have DoC as one faction and have a mark system but to do them justice it's still going to require a whole slew of new models . I'd say 2.5 is probably closer to reality without seeing actual manhours spent rendering those complex models that the demons will require.
I'll end on this, have fun dreaming about what could be. But don't be surprised when the reality of economics gets in the way of that dream. Chaos will be a major factor in game 3. But the chances of getting a launch of nothing but 4 chaos Factions is extreamly low.
There is a much better chance that it launches with undivided and then has a dlc that has 4 LL one for each. Perhaps each LL has very strict recruitment limits and launches with a few unique units.
What else do you think the third game will entail anyway? It will have to be chaos focus, chaos dwarves and ogres do not have near the pull that chaos does. It's not that hard to imagine a fully fleshed out chaos, and a well depicted chaos wastes, plus chaos dwarves and ogres for $50. Maybe they'll charge $45.
I can see well made trailers for each chaos god faction and the trials each has to go through to prove their mettle. Each will have a distinct flavor that I think people will appreciate if depicted unique and well enough. I doubt people will singularly think of it as simple 'chaos', by that point.
I mean, Shogun 2 FOTS was basically one big faction with few unique units, even less diverse than what we're proposing here for the chaos factions, and it still sold for $30.
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Merely talking with the other side doesn't mean you're out of the echo chamber, though. If you're just looking for holes to pick in the other side's arguments without actually giving their points due consideration, while applauding the people who agree with you, you're still effectively in the echo chamber (due to selection bias if nothing else).
Not that I'm saying you are. In fact, assuming the other side is in an echo chamber can be a sign that YOU are.
Feel free to believe what you want, I'm just here to give a dose or reality and explain why this idea will not work.
But, saying we love chaos we eat and sleep chaos we lived chaos of 20 years does not really provide any logical or rational reasoning why they should release the game.
I understand the Warhammer Fans are very passionate about Warhammer. But there simply are not enough of you out there. If there were fantasy battle would still be going strong. Correct me if I am wrong but it is pretty much dead and all that's left of it is age of sigmar.
This is a total war first and formost, and as a long time Total War fan I can assure you that certain things work in total war and certain tings do not. Launching a full price game with 4 badguys who all have similar goals similar names but who happen to hate each other is not a good selling concept. This was billed as a fantasy game where you battle against varied and different races each with their own mechanics. Thus far it has delivered. This is nothing against chaos because a game that pitted wood elves vs high elves vs dark elves and focused on nothing but elf on elf combat wouldn't sell well either.
I'll end on this, have fun dreaming about what could be. But don't be surprised when the reality of economics gets in the way of that dream. Chaos will be a major factor in game 3. But the chances of getting a launch of nothing but 4 chaos Factions is extreamly low.
There is a much better chance that it launches with undivided and then has a dlc that has 4 LL one for each. Perhaps each LL has very strict recruitment limits and launches with a few unique units.
Then I think you're failing to face the realism of what the IP CA are working with represents. If you're assuming that the third part will be based around 'new' races, there simply isn't enough content left to provide a cohesive storyline campaign with the same level of depth as the first two parts without significantly expanding the roster.
Let us not forget, the original reason for people believing the four gods having separate factions was the startpos file indicating as such, with each god prefixed with 'ext02' and the remaining 'missing' factions to be added as DLC. From this, I deduce that the original plan was to have Chaos be the focus of a new addition.
So don't say you're bringing 'reality' to the discussion when we already have an indication of CA's original plans that contradicts your viewpoint.
The games are also now projected to be sequels, rather than expansions. So I see your point that they will have to expand upon the initial plans in order to justify defining it as a new game.
But, in doing so, there's no reason to say they can't use factions already in the first game(s) as base content for the third. And I'd argue that this is the only way to create a narrative campaign. They probably won't, because people would cry and moan, but if the Chaos factions aren't split, I think they would have to do this.
Again, you don't want to see an entire game/expansion based around Chaos and I do. That's the reason for our differences, neither of us is any more grounded in 'reality' than the other.
And for the record, I've been playing TW games for a long time too; I don't this qualifies my opinion any more than anyone else's.
So I would get used to the idea right now, that it will more look like WoC=Undivided -> Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh DoC=Undivided -> Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh BoC=Undivided - > Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh
Granted, the BoC will most likely be not divided, since they really never had a list for that. Best they could do, would be adding the special god-gors but if CA puts in some extra steps and would make a standalone god themed Beastmen horde, I would not complain. That WoC might get a total overhaul is als included in that assumption. They already stated that for sandbox combo map everyon can conquer everywhere, so the current "Horde" mechanic from WoC might already get spiced up in game#2 to some degree. Or maybe not, but then a glimpse of new mechanics with the combo map and game#3 might bring the real change for whatever map we see there.
So I would get used to the idea right now, that it will more look like WoC=Undivided -> Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh DoC=Undivided -> Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh BoC=Undivided - > Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh
Granted, the BoC will most likely be not divided, since they really never had a list for that. Best they could do, would be adding the special god-gors but if CA puts in some extra steps and would make a standalone god themed Beastmen horde, I would not complain.
If CA were to do something like that though, I'd expect more work and unique animations to reflect the character of each chaos god, otherwise it'd feel too much like a mod
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I think it's worth mentioning that OP's proposal was what CA initially considered for the game's 2nd expansion. A good glimpse of what they could eventually do, considering the 2nd expansion is now game 3, is looking at game 2's rooster vs. what it was originally planned when it was an expansion, i.e. no Skaven.
That means we could get all 4 DoC subfactions + 1-2 extra races. Add Cathay and Nippon while setting the game on the Far East and you get yourself a killer game 3 imo. Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs, of all the major factions, are the easiest to move over as DLC (as it was also originally planned), add Kislev on top of that and maybe Kingdoms of Ind if there's still room, and you also get proper post-launch support.
I agree with Draxynnic there is not enough in whfb to differentiate making god dedicated factions unless GW allows them to dip into end times and AOS(This would not bother me in the slightest) and as Draxynnic said this will be a controversial decision cause many in this forum can't even handle units from end times.
At most I see CA adding chaos daemons in game three, adding some god dedicated units to warriors of chaos and to get a better incentive for people to buy the game I suspect kislev is going to be an option in game 3.
Since by the time we are done with game 2 majority of the main races will be in the game there is not going to be much left for game 3.
Nagash: When Nagash reaches out to crush his enemies, it is with a million hands. When Nagash seeks out his prey, it is with a million eyes.....
I think 5 Chaos factions is the best, most thematic way of doing it. Having Warriors and Daemons in two separate factions makes sense yes, but here's my counter argument: what units and characters get cut? Which god gets the short end of the stick? So far, all vanilla factions start with only 2 LLs. Those would most likely be Khorne and Nurgle characters. What about Slaanesh and Tzeentch?
+++ HOPE IS THE FIRST STEP ON THE ROAD TO DISAPPOINTMENT +++
Bit of an out there idea maybe, but I think it would be cool if they do a chaos centric game three with abit more of an rpg focus.
Perhaps with some kind of mechanic that lets your lords gain gifts and become demonprinces or spawn.
I hope they get into the old school mindbending-horror style chaos stuff.
A permanent quest battle that is a 4 way free for all between the 4 powers and you have to sacrifice armies and take it on regularly to maintain your god's supremacy.
Mechanics for cultists spawning in other factions regions and summoning demons.
Demonic Lords that can be summoned and banished/destroyed but never really die.
Turning enemy characters to Chaos
Random demon hosts spawning
Plagues
Just any kind of lore-friendly madness they think they can implement in a practical way really.
I hope they go beyond the army books and include other chaos horror units from the background material.
Comments
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI think most people are assuming it'd be too many charlemagnes to be a DLC, but there probably is a lot that can be done on existing skeletons.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThey kind of hinted this would be the case for the 1st DLC for game 2 (Tomb Kings?)
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeBut, saying we love chaos we eat and sleep chaos we lived chaos of 20 years does not really provide any logical or rational reasoning why they should release the game.
I understand the Warhammer Fans are very passionate about Warhammer. But there simply are not enough of you out there. If there were fantasy battle would still be going strong. Correct me if I am wrong but it is pretty much dead and all that's left of it is age of sigmar.
This is a total war first and formost, and as a long time Total War fan I can assure you that certain things work in total war and certain tings do not. Launching a full price game with 4 badguys who all have similar goals similar names but who happen to hate each other is not a good selling concept. This was billed as a fantasy game where you battle against varied and different races each with their own mechanics. Thus far it has delivered. This is nothing against chaos because a game that pitted wood elves vs high elves vs dark elves and focused on nothing but elf on elf combat wouldn't sell well either.
I'll end on this, have fun dreaming about what could be. But don't be surprised when the reality of economics gets in the way of that dream. Chaos will be a major factor in game 3. But the chances of getting a launch of nothing but 4 chaos Factions is extreamly low.
There is a much better chance that it launches with undivided and then has a dlc that has 4 LL one for each. Perhaps each LL has very strict recruitment limits and launches with a few unique units.
- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI see how some people can't fathom how a whole game could start as solely chaos but i think to make a compelling campaign focus, it makes sense to me. It looks like the Vortex focus for WH2 is going to be really fun so i'd like to continue this with WH3. Add these to the grand campaign and it would make chaos be the big bad they are meant to be. A threat to the entire WH world.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeIt might work to have DoC as one faction and have a mark system but to do them justice it's still going to require a whole slew of new models . I'd say 2.5 is probably closer to reality without seeing actual manhours spent rendering those complex models that the demons will require.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI can see well made trailers for each chaos god faction and the trials each has to go through to prove their mettle. Each will have a distinct flavor that I think people will appreciate if depicted unique and well enough. I doubt people will singularly think of it as simple 'chaos', by that point.
I mean, Shogun 2 FOTS was basically one big faction with few unique units, even less diverse than what we're proposing here for the chaos factions, and it still sold for $30.
ASUS TUF 3080 12 GB
4TB Sabrent NVMe SSD PCIe 4.0 w/ Windows 10 Pro 64bit
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeLet us not forget, the original reason for people believing the four gods having separate factions was the startpos file indicating as such, with each god prefixed with 'ext02' and the remaining 'missing' factions to be added as DLC. From this, I deduce that the original plan was to have Chaos be the focus of a new addition.
So don't say you're bringing 'reality' to the discussion when we already have an indication of CA's original plans that contradicts your viewpoint.
The games are also now projected to be sequels, rather than expansions. So I see your point that they will have to expand upon the initial plans in order to justify defining it as a new game.
But, in doing so, there's no reason to say they can't use factions already in the first game(s) as base content for the third. And I'd argue that this is the only way to create a narrative campaign. They probably won't, because people would cry and moan, but if the Chaos factions aren't split, I think they would have to do this.
Again, you don't want to see an entire game/expansion based around Chaos and I do. That's the reason for our differences, neither of us is any more grounded in 'reality' than the other.
And for the record, I've been playing TW games for a long time too; I don't this qualifies my opinion any more than anyone else's.
- Report
2 · Disagree Agreehttps://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/164869/total-war-warhammer-dev-blog-chaos-warriors-pre-orders-and-dlc/p1
So I would get used to the idea right now, that it will more look like
WoC=Undivided -> Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh
DoC=Undivided -> Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh
BoC=Undivided - > Subfactions Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh
Granted, the BoC will most likely be not divided, since they really never had a list for that. Best they could do, would be adding the special god-gors but if CA puts in some extra steps and would make a standalone god themed Beastmen horde, I would not complain.
That WoC might get a total overhaul is als included in that assumption. They already stated that for sandbox combo map everyon can conquer everywhere, so the current "Horde" mechanic from WoC might already get spiced up in game#2 to some degree. Or maybe not, but then a glimpse of new mechanics with the combo map and game#3 might bring the real change for whatever map we see there.
-----Red Dox
Missing units and other possible stuff (work in Progress)
- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeIf CA were to do something like that though, I'd expect more work and unique animations to reflect the character of each chaos god, otherwise it'd feel too much like a mod
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4TB Sabrent NVMe SSD PCIe 4.0 w/ Windows 10 Pro 64bit
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThat means we could get all 4 DoC subfactions + 1-2 extra races. Add Cathay and Nippon while setting the game on the Far East and you get yourself a killer game 3 imo. Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs, of all the major factions, are the easiest to move over as DLC (as it was also originally planned), add Kislev on top of that and maybe Kingdoms of Ind if there's still room, and you also get proper post-launch support. Exalted variants of the greater daemons can be added in to differentiate them as well (exalted being the lord variants).
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeAt most I see CA adding chaos daemons in game three, adding some god dedicated units to warriors of chaos and to get a better incentive for people to buy the game I suspect kislev is going to be an option in game 3.
Since by the time we are done with game 2 majority of the main races will be in the game there is not going to be much left for game 3.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreePerhaps with some kind of mechanic that lets your lords gain gifts and become demonprinces or spawn.
I hope they get into the old school mindbending-horror style chaos stuff.
A permanent quest battle that is a 4 way free for all between the 4 powers and you have to sacrifice armies and take it on regularly to maintain your god's supremacy.
Mechanics for cultists spawning in other factions regions and summoning demons.
Demonic Lords that can be summoned and banished/destroyed but never really die.
Turning enemy characters to Chaos
Random demon hosts spawning
Plagues
Just any kind of lore-friendly madness they think they can implement in a practical way really.
I hope they go beyond the army books and include other chaos horror units from the background material.
- Report
1 · Disagree Agree