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The Balance Patch Notes

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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,824Registered Users
    Kayosiv said:

    I've played several chaos campaigns and don't know what you mean. While I didn't say it in my previous post I did also mean in multiplayer. When you get can 12 chosen in your army there isn't much the AI can do but die. That's not really the point.

    That is entirely the point. They're much stronger and easier to play in campaign.

  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 2,631Registered Users
    The AI in campaign is currently too stupid to build proper armies or prioritize targets with proper counters. The player has huge advantages even in legendary because they actually put points in their lords skill trees in ways that are useful and build armies with synergy. Chaos gaining or losing 50% strength doesn't matter in campaign because it's campaign. Auto resolve is broken and allows you to win everything and Lightning Strike trivializes any number advantages any opponent might have.
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  • krunshkrunsh Senior Member Posts: 3,680Registered Users
    Ok but this is all standard TW campaign behavior which requires mod. Nothing to do with the balance patch.
    i5-3550 CPU @ 3.30GHz
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  • Mad MacMad Mac Junior Member Posts: 718Registered Users
    Another small point of testing/feedback.

    Alberic's Wrath of Mannan ability, when lined up almost perfectly, does about 400 damage to a single unit. That's an improvement over the roughly zero damage it did previously, but more work is needed to make it remotely worthwhile.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,798Registered Users
    Why did CA increase WoM cost for summoned Wight King? Just why? It was one of the worst summons already and now it is even worse. I just don't understand now what are the thoughts behind those changes. :(
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • natesos1natesos1 Posts: 159Registered Users
    More flying gank ya.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,336Registered Users
    It's about the statistics probably. The reason why this is dangerous is because it is catering to the lowest common denominator...

    SO basically the people who are good at the game understand that the changes are actually garbage, but since there are so many bad players, the statistics say that the WRONG changes are the RIGHT changes.

    If the game were actually balanced using a system where statistics were secondary and the FEEDBACK of the players was more important (which is more complicated because feedback has to be filtered, whereas statistics are "objective") then the good players give generally good feedback-- or at least, can say exactly what the problem is, if not solve it necessarily.

    And so here we are, with an understaffed balance team, and using an easier way of balancing because they probably just don't have the time or people to spend on a better method in the long run.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 3,572Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    If the game were actually balanced using a system where statistics were secondary and the FEEDBACK of the players was more important (which is more complicated because feedback has to be filtered.

    They would have to get through all the cancerous troll posts from Irurobin, ArchonPrime, and KhorneFlakes.
  • lucibuislucibuis Posts: 2,524Registered Users
    kolek, shaggoth, knights ror, forsaken ror, is a brutal combination. you still have points left to add something. Kolek is way cheaper than Durthu but way stronger, I don't get it.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,336Registered Users
    salsicha said:

    Seldkam said:

    If the game were actually balanced using a system where statistics were secondary and the FEEDBACK of the players was more important (which is more complicated because feedback has to be filtered.

    They would have to get through all the cancerous troll posts from Irurobin, ArchonPrime, and KhorneFlakes.
    To quote myself:

    "(which is more complicated because feedback has to be filtered)"

    As for those three dudes, they're basically just like any of us. Every single one of us here probably has a unit or two that they rage about internally that they wish was better or worse or whatever. For me those units are Elven Light Cav, because I think their implementation really just sucks and is very boring, symmetrical (as opposed to Asymmetrical), and just overall doesn't do justice to what some of the best hybrid units in the TT game were like.


    *grumble grumble grumble*
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    salsicha said:

    Seldkam said:

    If the game were actually balanced using a system where statistics were secondary and the FEEDBACK of the players was more important (which is more complicated because feedback has to be filtered.

    They would have to get through all the cancerous troll posts from Irurobin, ArchonPrime, and KhorneFlakes.
    i think you don;t understand what trolling is.......as for us we provide proof for what we say,now we are a impatient bunch seeing how somethings take 1 year to fix despite providing so many proofs

    Balance Is A Lie

  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 1,933Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    Seldkam said:


    To quote myself:

    "(which is more complicated because feedback has to be filtered)"

    As for those three dudes, they're basically just like any of us. Every single one of us here probably has a unit or two that they rage about internally that they wish was better or worse or whatever. For me those units are Elven Light Cav, because I think their implementation really just sucks and is very boring, symmetrical (as opposed to Asymmetrical), and just overall doesn't do justice to what some of the best hybrid units in the TT game were like.


    *grumble grumble grumble*

    Yeah, I sympathize with both sides. Dwarf players have been pushing for reform since launch, nothing has been done and they have pretty good self control so far. A year into the game and some of the most iconic fantasy races are still sub par while we watched top dogs get a game changing unit and mechanics almost every DLC/Patch.

    Every Wizard the Empire got changed the game, don't even get me started on the VC, but nothing could be done about the Engineer or Rune system? It's incredibly frustrating.


    On the other hand, the concern trolling is toxic, it's alienating any support the Chaos fans had and half of it is just whining over poorly thought out issues or that CA isn't going to devalue their not-even-day-old product by giving Norsca units to WoC. Which is nothing short of dumb. There are a few good issues that do show up though, like the one about armor being over valued on Chaos Halberdiers but it's drowned out.

    Plus instead of letting them fizzle out, we have all these hallway patrol officers going around lecturing everyone about BS. Any criticism at all gets a wag of the finger by these self appointed popes.

    Mods pls.
    Post edited by ElectorOfWurttemberg on
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users

    Nosca just walked over my D

    Seldkam said:


    To quote myself:

    "(which is more complicated because feedback has to be filtered)"

    As for those three dudes, they're basically just like any of us. Every single one of us here probably has a unit or two that they rage about internally that they wish was better or worse or whatever. For me those units are Elven Light Cav, because I think their implementation really just sucks and is very boring, symmetrical (as opposed to Asymmetrical), and just overall doesn't do justice to what some of the best hybrid units in the TT game were like.


    *grumble grumble grumble*

    Yeah, I sympathize with both sides. Dwarf players have been pushing for reform since launch, nothing has been done and they have pretty good self control so far. A year into the game and some of the most iconic fantasy races are still sub par while we watched top dogs get a game changing unit and mechanics almost every DLC/Patch.

    Every Wizard the Empire got changed the game, don't even get me started on the VC, but nothing could be done about the Engineer or Rune system? It's incredibly frustrating.


    On the other hand, the concern trolling is toxic, it's alienating any support the Chaos fans had and half of it is just whining over poorly thought out issues or that CA isn't going to devalue their not-even-day-old product by giving Norsca units to WoC. Which is nothing short of dumb. There are a few good issues that do show up though, like the one about armor being over valued on Chaos Halberdiers but it's drowned out.

    Plus instead of letting them fizzle out, we have all these hallway patrol officers going around lecturing everyone about BS. Any criticism at all gets a wag of the finger by these self appointed popes.

    Mods pls.
    maybe its because have fundamental dwarfs issue,which requires a lot of changing,meanwhilke chaos's issue is their unit/character performance, no design flaw(so relatively easy to do) and providing evidence of unit perfomacne and still not being able to change makes one side furiouus(its only this patch most of were silent even in bret patch) but dwarfs are just discussing it because they need to come up with better design challenges

    Balance Is A Lie

  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,416Registered Users

    RandomTag said:

    WTF...Regular Marauder Chieftain cannot take any item. Derp
    And Sword of Chaos' speed bonus is indeed just cosmetic: +24% speed and +24% charge speed. Another Chaos trash again...

    its only one time apparently according to archon prime and ror ck lose to even questing knights

    first i thought it was just ato that hates chaos but now i think its just the whole group of balancing team

    RandomTag said:

    WTF...Regular Marauder Chieftain cannot take any item. Derp
    And Sword of Chaos' speed bonus is indeed just cosmetic: +24% speed and +24% charge speed. Another Chaos trash again...

    its only one time apparently according to archon prime and ror ck lose to even questing knights

    first i thought it was just ato that hates chaos but now i think its just the whole group of balancing team
    CK ROR are not anti-cav ( as questing knights ik but questing knights are just well too good ) they are extremely good vs elite infantry they easily beated 3 greatswords plus if you mix archaon with them you got a LL with ftenzy good stats, lore of fire plus 43% physical resist wich make archaon the neverchosen good

    They excel at destroying infantry they are no meant for fighting cav so stop comparing them with cav fight

    They are really powerfull if used right in the 3 last game ive played they had around 125 kills on greatswords, black orcs and dwarf units they are good plus they make archaon good wich I like


  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 3,572Registered Users
    Kranox said:

    They excel at destroying infantry they are no meant for fighting cav so stop comparing them with cav fight

    Finally someone with sense.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    salsicha said:

    Kranox said:

    They excel at destroying infantry they are no meant for fighting cav so stop comparing them with cav fight

    Finally someone with sense.
    Kranox said:

    RandomTag said:

    WTF...Regular Marauder Chieftain cannot take any item. Derp
    And Sword of Chaos' speed bonus is indeed just cosmetic: +24% speed and +24% charge speed. Another Chaos trash again...

    its only one time apparently according to archon prime and ror ck lose to even questing knights

    first i thought it was just ato that hates chaos but now i think its just the whole group of balancing team

    RandomTag said:

    WTF...Regular Marauder Chieftain cannot take any item. Derp
    And Sword of Chaos' speed bonus is indeed just cosmetic: +24% speed and +24% charge speed. Another Chaos trash again...

    its only one time apparently according to archon prime and ror ck lose to even questing knights

    first i thought it was just ato that hates chaos but now i think its just the whole group of balancing team
    CK ROR are not anti-cav ( as questing knights ik but questing knights are just well too good ) they are extremely good vs elite infantry they easily beated 3 greatswords plus if you mix archaon with them you got a LL with ftenzy good stats, lore of fire plus 43% physical resist wich make archaon the neverchosen good

    They excel at destroying infantry they are no meant for fighting cav so stop comparing them with cav fight

    They are really powerfull if used right in the 3 last game ive played they had around 125 kills on greatswords, black orcs and dwarf units they are good plus they make archaon good wich I like
    i will gladly trade anti infy for anti large anyday...and they can't beat 2 black orcs btw so much for anti infy......anyways i am fine as long as apocalyptic vision is changed

    questing knights are well broken

    Balance Is A Lie

  • snowflakesnowflake Posts: 103Registered Users



    i will gladly trade anti infy for anti large anyday...and they can't beat 2 black orcs btw so much for anti infy......anyways i am fine as long as apocalyptic vision is changed

    So you think that it should beat 2 Black orcs in melee?L.O.L
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    snowflake said:



    i will gladly trade anti infy for anti large anyday...and they can't beat 2 black orcs btw so much for anti infy......anyways i am fine as long as apocalyptic vision is changed

    So you think that it should beat 2 Black orcs in melee?L.O.L
    yest they cost 1800 are anti infy.?? and units that have higher cost need to be more cost effective whats the problem..?? 1800 anti infy unit + chaos melee asymmetry advantage vs 2 generalist unit both armored and anti infy

    Balance Is A Lie

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,336Registered Users
    How much do they beat them by? In a recent battle on youtube I watched with some earth blood the Swords of Chaos got almost 200 kills (and not on fodder, mind you) and they literally hadn't lost any HP. They were in combat for the entirety of the battle once the lines met, that is. Literally no HP lost. None. This is against eternal guards and Chaos infantry (don't remember which), which is bloody impressive if you ask me, especially since they were pretty much instrumental in SINGLE HANDEDLY holding the left flank.

    Idk if it was just the earth blood (which there weren't very many of anyways that I saw) or what, but literally NO models lost, and a paltry amount of HP lost by the end. IMO, it's a great unit.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • snowflakesnowflake Posts: 103Registered Users
    edited August 2017

    snowflake said:



    i will gladly trade anti infy for anti large anyday...and they can't beat 2 black orcs btw so much for anti infy......anyways i am fine as long as apocalyptic vision is changed

    So you think that it should beat 2 Black orcs in melee?L.O.L
    yest they cost 1800 are anti infy.?? and units that have higher cost need to be more cost effective whats the problem..?? 1800 anti infy unit + chaos melee asymmetry advantage vs 2 generalist unit both armored and anti infy

    SERIOUSLY? do you even know the differences between cav and inf? Infantries are designed to be way more superior than cav in prolong melee, and cav have their strength on charge and maneuverability. Should I really need to explain this? O M G.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    How much do they beat them by? In a recent battle on youtube I watched with some earth blood the Swords of Chaos got almost 200 kills (and not on fodder, mind you) and they literally hadn't lost any HP. They were in combat for the entirety of the battle once the lines met, that is. Literally no HP lost. None. This is against eternal guards and Chaos infantry (don't remember which), which is bloody impressive if you ask me, especially since they were pretty much instrumental in SINGLE HANDEDLY holding the left flank.

    Idk if it was just the earth blood (which there weren't very many of anyways that I saw) or what, but literally NO models lost, and a paltry amount of HP lost by the end. IMO, it's a great unit.

    it was turin's video i watched it too thye were mixed wiht other infy and were getting heals and fighting units that were dealing regular damage,so ofcourse they did so much lol,you can do even better with questing kinghts or grail guardians that way

    Balance Is A Lie

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,336Registered Users

    Seldkam said:

    How much do they beat them by? In a recent battle on youtube I watched with some earth blood the Swords of Chaos got almost 200 kills (and not on fodder, mind you) and they literally hadn't lost any HP. They were in combat for the entirety of the battle once the lines met, that is. Literally no HP lost. None. This is against eternal guards and Chaos infantry (don't remember which), which is bloody impressive if you ask me, especially since they were pretty much instrumental in SINGLE HANDEDLY holding the left flank.

    Idk if it was just the earth blood (which there weren't very many of anyways that I saw) or what, but literally NO models lost, and a paltry amount of HP lost by the end. IMO, it's a great unit.

    it was turin's video i watched it too thye were mixed wiht other infy and were getting heals and fighting units that were dealing regular damage,so ofcourse they did so much lol,you can do even better with questing kinghts or grail guardians that way
    Even so, it's prettty good performance. Questing knights and Grail guardians both over perform to varying degrees anyways
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Seldkam said:

    How much do they beat them by? In a recent battle on youtube I watched with some earth blood the Swords of Chaos got almost 200 kills (and not on fodder, mind you) and they literally hadn't lost any HP. They were in combat for the entirety of the battle once the lines met, that is. Literally no HP lost. None. This is against eternal guards and Chaos infantry (don't remember which), which is bloody impressive if you ask me, especially since they were pretty much instrumental in SINGLE HANDEDLY holding the left flank.

    Idk if it was just the earth blood (which there weren't very many of anyways that I saw) or what, but literally NO models lost, and a paltry amount of HP lost by the end. IMO, it's a great unit.

    it was turin's video i watched it too thye were mixed wiht other infy and were getting heals and fighting units that were dealing regular damage,so ofcourse they did so much lol,you can do even better with questing kinghts or grail guardians that way
    Even so, it's prettty good performance. Questing knights and Grail guardians both over perform to varying degrees anyways
    nah grail is fine ,qk though uuufffff!!!

    Balance Is A Lie

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,336Registered Users

    Seldkam said:

    Seldkam said:

    How much do they beat them by? In a recent battle on youtube I watched with some earth blood the Swords of Chaos got almost 200 kills (and not on fodder, mind you) and they literally hadn't lost any HP. They were in combat for the entirety of the battle once the lines met, that is. Literally no HP lost. None. This is against eternal guards and Chaos infantry (don't remember which), which is bloody impressive if you ask me, especially since they were pretty much instrumental in SINGLE HANDEDLY holding the left flank.

    Idk if it was just the earth blood (which there weren't very many of anyways that I saw) or what, but literally NO models lost, and a paltry amount of HP lost by the end. IMO, it's a great unit.

    it was turin's video i watched it too thye were mixed wiht other infy and were getting heals and fighting units that were dealing regular damage,so ofcourse they did so much lol,you can do even better with questing kinghts or grail guardians that way
    Even so, it's prettty good performance. Questing knights and Grail guardians both over perform to varying degrees anyways
    nah grail is fine ,qk though uuufffff!!!
    Guardians might be ok now, hence "varying degrees" most of the issue with them was Fey anyways
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • krunshkrunsh Senior Member Posts: 3,680Registered Users
    snowflake said:


    snowflake said:



    i will gladly trade anti infy for anti large anyday...and they can't beat 2 black orcs btw so much for anti infy......anyways i am fine as long as apocalyptic vision is changed

    So you think that it should beat 2 Black orcs in melee?L.O.L
    yest they cost 1800 are anti infy.?? and units that have higher cost need to be more cost effective whats the problem..?? 1800 anti infy unit + chaos melee asymmetry advantage vs 2 generalist unit both armored and anti infy

    SERIOUSLY? do you even know the differences between cav and inf? Infantries are designed to be way more superior than cav in prolong melee, and cav have their strength on charge and maneuverability. Should I really need to explain this? O M G.
    Chaos knight beating even one unit of black orcs without cycle charging would be wrong. Black orcs are an anti-armor elite unite and are also heavily armored. Chaos knight can definitely beat Black Orcs if the latter are engaged by even a low tier marauder units and charged in the back.

    These 1800 points include mobility in their value, at the cost of numbers and combat efficiency.
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  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    snowflake said:


    snowflake said:



    i will gladly trade anti infy for anti large anyday...and they can't beat 2 black orcs btw so much for anti infy......anyways i am fine as long as apocalyptic vision is changed

    So you think that it should beat 2 Black orcs in melee?L.O.L
    yest they cost 1800 are anti infy.?? and units that have higher cost need to be more cost effective whats the problem..?? 1800 anti infy unit + chaos melee asymmetry advantage vs 2 generalist unit both armored and anti infy

    SERIOUSLY? do you even know the differences between cav and inf? Infantries are designed to be way more superior than cav in prolong melee, and cav have their strength on charge and maneuverability. Should I really need to explain this? O M G.
    then how came all other cav have the SAME..?????

    Balance Is A Lie

  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    krunsh said:


    snowflake said:


    snowflake said:



    i will gladly trade anti infy for anti large anyday...and they can't beat 2 black orcs btw so much for anti infy......anyways i am fine as long as apocalyptic vision is changed

    So you think that it should beat 2 Black orcs in melee?L.O.L
    yest they cost 1800 are anti infy.?? and units that have higher cost need to be more cost effective whats the problem..?? 1800 anti infy unit + chaos melee asymmetry advantage vs 2 generalist unit both armored and anti infy

    SERIOUSLY? do you even know the differences between cav and inf? Infantries are designed to be way more superior than cav in prolong melee, and cav have their strength on charge and maneuverability. Should I really need to explain this? O M G.
    Chaos knight beating even one unit of black orcs without cycle charging would be wrong. Black orcs are an anti-armor elite unite and are also heavily armored. Chaos knight can definitely beat Black Orcs if the latter are engaged by even a low tier marauder units and charged in the back.

    These 1800 points include mobility in their value, at the cost of numbers and combat efficiency.
    oh yeah only chaos knights should't do that meanwhile rest of the high tier cav should ,do you people even test stuff..??

    Balance Is A Lie

  • RandomTagRandomTag Posts: 1,479Registered Users
    The base unit of Sword of Chaos is Chaos Knight with sword&shield, so it should excel against infantry , not cavalry. I have no problem with that. The main issue here is the unique ability "Apocalyptic Charge". Currently:
    1. It's broken. Apocalyptic Charge buff for less than 1 second when triggered and then disappeared. Also confirmed by ArchonPrime
    2. Even if it's not broken, an ability with only one activation that the player has no control can be easily baited out by opponent. On top of that, the speed bonus is too small for WoC due to their main line units having the slowest default speed. In short, Apocalyptic Charge, even if working as designed, will remain useless.

    Personally I highly suspect this dubious and novel trigger condition for Apocalyptic Charge is the cause of the aforementioned bug. The solution is simple: get rid of the new trigger and use the tried and worked manual trigger...or remove trigger altogether and make it a passive map-wide buff.
    1. If Apocalyptic Charge uses manual trigger, the speed buff needs to be much higher than merely +24%. E.g. after +24% speed buff the speed of Chaos Warriors is 34, just the average speed of melee infantry. They still cannot catch anything if opponent decides to kite his own melee line. The speed buff needs to be +50% or more.
    2. If Apocalyptic Charge becomes a passive buff as long as Sword of Chaos remains on battlefield and their leadership is above broken, the magnitude of speed buff needs to be toned down than a one-time manual trigger buff, otherwise Chaos will actually becomes OP (surprise surprise :D ). In this case, current speed buff of +24% seems appropriate.

    Of course the numbers here is just a suggestion, more testing and tweaking is always welcome. But the general idea is here.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    RandomTag said:

    The base unit of Sword of Chaos is Chaos Knight with sword&shield, so it should excel against infantry , not cavalry. I have no problem with that. The main issue here is the unique ability "Apocalyptic Charge". Currently:
    1. It's broken. Apocalyptic Charge buff for less than 1 second when triggered and then disappeared. Also confirmed by ArchonPrime
    2. Even if it's not broken, an ability with only one activation that the player has no control can be easily baited out by opponent. On top of that, the speed bonus is too small for WoC due to their main line units having the slowest default speed. In short, Apocalyptic Charge, even if working as designed, will remain useless.

    Personally I highly suspect this dubious and novel trigger condition for Apocalyptic Charge is the cause of the aforementioned bug. The solution is simple: get rid of the new trigger and use the tried and worked manual trigger...or remove trigger altogether and make it a passive map-wide buff.
    1. If Apocalyptic Charge uses manual trigger, the speed buff needs to be much higher than merely +24%. E.g. after +24% speed buff the speed of Chaos Warriors is 34, just the average speed of melee infantry. They still cannot catch anything if opponent decides to kite his own melee line. The speed buff needs to be +50% or more.
    2. If Apocalyptic Charge becomes a passive buff as long as Sword of Chaos remains on battlefield and their leadership is above broken, the magnitude of speed buff needs to be toned down than a one-time manual trigger buff, otherwise Chaos will actually becomes OP (surprise surprise :D ). In this case, current speed buff of +24% seems appropriate.

    Of course the numbers here is just a suggestion, more testing and tweaking is always welcome. But the general idea is here.

    thanks someone with a sense black orcs killing eveyrthing in melee what a joke theses sp guys should go back to general forums,

    anyways my suggestion is to just mirror it with horn of the wild hunt the orion legendary item and make it only 2 times use

    Balance Is A Lie

  • AltervisionAltervision Posts: 31Registered Users
    I noticed that Khazrak has 80 amour now. I think it was 100 before.

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