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New RoR missed chance to make WE vs Dwarfs better

SoepkiekenSoepkieken Posts: 47Registered Users
edited August 12 in Multiplayer Area
Hi,

As we all know playing WE against dwarfs in MP has always been considered broken. So many WE units do magic damage, which seriously limits their use against dwarfs. WE also have a lot of anti-large, which is useless against dwarfs. In the end you're pretty much limited to:

- eternal guard
- wildwood rangers
- deepwood scouts
- wild riders

And that's pretty much it. The problem is that slayers do well against all these units. Also dwarf warriors and quarrellers perform excellent vs these troops.

A dwarf army with a core of 4 quarrellers, 4 warriors and 3 slayers, is near impossible to beat for WE.

WE RoR could have helped a great deal if they were something like this:

- eternal guard with anti-infantry instead of anti-large
- wildwood rangers with anti-infantry instead of anti-large
- wild riders with armour piercing damage
- war dancers with armour piercing damage
- starfire shafts without magical damage
- a unit with an aoe effect of ignoring magic resistance
- ...

None of such anti-dwarfs units have been added. None of the RoR makes a real difference against dwarfs,
I was really counting on the RoR to make this matchup better...

Comments

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 484Registered Users
    edited August 12
    WE vs Dwarf is broken in a way that WE can absolutely dominate this match up with cheese or cannot do anything at all with standard army, its an unfun experience at least for 1 of the players.
    Wish more was done to balance this match up.

    By the way waywatchers are amazing against dwarfs, just make sure you shoot from flanks to avoid shields.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 589Registered Users

    WE vs Dwarf is broken in a way that WE can absolutely dominate this match up with cheese or cannot do anything at all with standard army, its an unfun experience at least for 1 of the players.
    Wish more was done to balance this match up.

    By the way waywatchers are amazing against dwarfs, just make sure you shoot from flanks to avoid shields.

    I don't buy it lotus, regarding we ability to beat dwarfs reliably with a spam build. What we build is dominant vs lots of stalking Rangers, sufficient slayers to intercept wild riders, and some cheap fodder inf and ap ranged support? The more cost effective stalking dwarf xbows can counter whatever the WE try when it comes to hit and run. Throw in the fiery ring of thory which is better than a kurnuos arrow vs light armored wood elf units... And earth blood that can't bail out wildwood rangers as easily.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 484Registered Users
    edited August 12
    I beat dwarfs 100% of the time its the easiest match up for me, the only thing that can make this hard is a small map which can just be dodged. Games last about 5min.

    I got over 2000 games with Wood Elves on the ladder (1000+ this season and over 1000 before the reset)

    I will let you make your own army but ill give you advice

    pick from those units

    Eternal guard, deepwood scouts, wild riders, waywatchers those are your only options unfortunately as wild wood rangers suffer too much from missiles.

    There are two way to approach this, you will either shoot the crap out of him or you go for all combat army

    So either 6 waywatchers + what you want or 3 deepwood scouts (for slayers) and 12 Eternal guard.

    For lord get Dragon and for mage get lore of shadows no need healing. Just deploy back and only move infantry after you killed warmachines or deploy in thin line and surround.

    Deploy like this with EG


    ----------------------****-----------------------------------------------------****------------------------------------------------------****----------------------

    That way you can get surround and in thin line so missles do nothing, you dont need shields save money and get one more unit, basically do not give him free shots and surround him from all sides.


    Its super easy match up just got to avoid small maps.


    With stalk units just take out warmachines first than fly your lord within range of them and when they shoot you, you shoot them with your ranged (which got more range) and micro your lord so they miss, just repeat that until they all dead, move back after each shot so they cannot target you

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 589Registered Users

    I beat dwarfs 100% of the time its the easiest match up for me, the only thing that can make this hard is a small map which can just be dodged. Games last about 5min.

    I got over 2000 games with Wood Elves on the ladder (1000+ this season and over 1000 before the reset)

    I will let you make your own army but ill give you advice

    pick from those units

    Eternal guard, deepwood scouts, wild riders, waywatchers those are your only options unfortunately as wild wood rangers suffer too much from missiles.

    There are two way to approach this, you will either shoot the crap out of him or you go for all combat army

    So either 6 waywatchers + what you want or 3 deepwood scouts (for slayers) and 12 Eternal guard.

    For lord get Dragon and for mage get lore of shadows no need healing. Just deploy back and only move infantry after you killed warmachines or deploy in thin line and surround.

    Deploy like this with EG


    ----------------------****-----------------------------------------------------****------------------------------------------------------****----------------------

    That way you can get surround and in thin line so missles do nothing, you dont need shields save money and get one more unit, basically do not give him free shots and surround him from all sides.


    Its super easy match up just got to avoid small maps.


    With stalk units just take out warmachines first than fly your lord within range of them and when they shoot you, you shoot them with your ranged (which got more range) and micro your lord so they miss, just repeat that until they all dead, move back after each shot so they cannot target you

    Yup makes sense the ranged trading with the lord as scout and the archer range carefully managed is the key.

    Since the elves are at max of their range is it impossible for the Rangers to not waste shots on the lord, but once exposed immediately retreat to waste elf ammo?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 484Registered Users
    You dont have the option as you can either net the unit u want or b fire at flanks of other units and to add more the opponent does not expect since your units are hidden, shoot than backspace, further more if you go from the flank you can kill at least 1 or 2 units before they realise what is happening, at same time move infantry on flanks to force your opponent to micro his army, to be fair there is potential for wasted arrows but you just got to force your opponent to micro many units at same time which will lead to him not being able to stop and move
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 589Registered Users
    Interesting thanks. Well if I play you maybe I will have to try 12 steam gyros and 3 brimstone gyros and a lord with thory hiding in the woods ;). Can't net us all!

    Honestly never tested it but I assume that's enough firepower to take out a bunch of way watchers.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 484Registered Users
    6 waywatcher build would smash that and i would not play on a wood heavy map.
  • irurobinirurobin Posts: 792Registered Users
    edited August 12
    @Lotus_Moon

    Stalk rangers + artillery + cheap dwarfs counters that. (and every wood elves build……)XD
    But most ladder dwarfs don't know how to do that. -___-
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 811Registered Users
    I've never had an issue with dwarfs as Welfs.

    Elf infantry handles Dwarf infantry very well. Wardancers trade well with Slayers (you can heal them to actually end up winning.)

    Eternal Guard pay for themselved, and then some. They can put up with most dwarf ranged fire and make it to the front line battle and still hold their own.

    Wildwood Rangers are good against...everything.

    Hawk riders are amazing and can fly in and out to wound slayers or take out ranged units. They are even decent in melee.

    Welf glade lords and Orion are good at kiting and picking apart Dwarf lords/heroes.

    And all Welf ranges units can out perform Dwarf ranged units *as long as you micro them.* they can't stand in one spot and trade. But they can shoot and scoot. Dwarf units can't. If they try they get killed out of position.


    Wild riders are still great also. You simply cannot lead in with them. Wardancers paired up with them work wonders for flanking. Wardancers tie down slayers. Then the riders can get where they need to be.


    It's a no brainer that you don't use tree units against dwarfs. Sort of like it's a no brainer for Greenskins to not throw a Goblin build at a VC player. It's just not a good idea.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 28Registered Users
    edited August 13
    In my experience with this matchup, the best an elf player can hope to do is kill 3-4 units of dwarf warriors and any artillery/slayers brought. There's no reason to bring elite infantry since dwarf warriors perform just fine against basically everything, and I occasionally have a runesmith with the missile resist rune. Rangers can move under cover of stalk and fire on your cavalry, missile units, or infantry as appropriate. I don't see how a wood elf player can deal with it. You can't shoot Dwarves to death because you'll run out of ammo and they just need to move their targeted unit a few feet per volley to avoid it. It also isn't very difficult to turn 90 degrees so shields eat the missiles if the dwarf player deploys in a tight formation, which he might as well since a pit of shades isn't even that threatening.

    Maybe if CA made it so magical attacks were a seperate stat from spell damage you'd be able to leverage a more diverse roster, because as it is having only like 4-5 viable units to pick from basically creates the Chaos problem where you have to bring bad units for a typical counter build to try to counter their counter in an already expensive army.
  • HartassenHartassen Junior Member Posts: 83Registered Users
    edited August 13
    Zergles said:

    I've never had an issue with dwarfs as Welfs.

    Elf infantry handles Dwarf infantry very well. Wardancers trade well with Slayers (you can heal them to actually end up winning.)

    Eternal Guard pay for themselved, and then some. They can put up with most dwarf ranged fire and make it to the front line battle and still hold their own.

    Wildwood Rangers are good against...everything.

    Hawk riders are amazing and can fly in and out to wound slayers or take out ranged units. They are even decent in melee.

    Welf glade lords and Orion are good at kiting and picking apart Dwarf lords/heroes.

    And all Welf ranges units can out perform Dwarf ranged units *as long as you micro them.* they can't stand in one spot and trade. But they can shoot and scoot. Dwarf units can't. If they try they get killed out of position.


    Wild riders are still great also. You simply cannot lead in with them. Wardancers paired up with them work wonders for flanking. Wardancers tie down slayers. Then the riders can get where they need to be.


    It's a no brainer that you don't use tree units against dwarfs. Sort of like it's a no brainer for Greenskins to not throw a Goblin build at a VC player. It's just not a good idea.

    I have to wonder if you actually play multiplayer or you are just talking out of a singleplayer perspective. Because none of this is particularly true. Hawk riders are terrible against quarrelers and wild riders aren't that much better.

    As for outranging dwarf ranged with your own it does not matter. You don't have the ammunition to waste on them. Goblin archers have more ammo than waywatchers (thanks ca).

    Wardancers will beat slayers if you activate the melee defence buff. Other than that they won't win against any armored dwarf infantry. Wildwood rangers will perform decent against most dwarven infantry but gets destroyed by slayers.
    "Ah, but the truth is like an expensive ****, Jerek. She comes in many dresses and will bend over for any with the money to pamper her." ~ Konrad von Carstein
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 589Registered Users
    edited August 13

    6 waywatcher build would smash that and i would not play on a wood heavy map.

    Coming back to this, I think you've never actually faced 12 gyro steam guns with 6 waywatchers. I appreciate the confidence but I call bull. happy to test it sometime of you like :)

    RE the larger strat (which i appreciate you sharing), if the dwarfs brought a cannon i dont follow how you manage to take it out with slayers and the rest of the dwarf army guarding it? stalkers face off against dwarf stalkers and if the dwarf army is deployed and relatively safe the dwarf rangers can protect war machine. Lore of shadows is probably the main leg up the elves have, but dwarfs have options of missile resistence runes if needed. Plus fiery ring of thory is solid magic on the dwarf side.

    anyhow sounds more like a skill-differential strat than an autowin cheese. most WE players seem to attempt some variant of that i just get the feeling you're a pro at the micro relative to your dwarf foes.

    Post edited by eumaies on
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 484Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    6 waywatcher build would smash that and i would not play on a wood heavy map.

    Coming back to this, I think you've never actually faced 12 gyro steam guns with 6 waywatchers. I appreciate the confidence but I call bull. happy to test it sometime of you like :)

    RE the larger strat (which i appreciate you sharing), if the dwarfs brought a cannon i dont follow how you manage to take it out with slayers and the rest of the dwarf army guarding it? stalkers face off against dwarf stalkers and if the dwarf army is deployed and relatively safe the dwarf rangers can protect war machine. Lore of shadows is probably the main leg up the elves have, but dwarfs have options of missile resistence runes if needed. Plus fiery ring of thory is solid magic on the dwarf side.

    anyhow sounds more like a skill-differential strat than an autowin cheese. most WE players seem to attempt some variant of that i just get the feeling you're a pro at the micro relative to your dwarf foes.

    actually i have twice, i always check unit count so i would know if im vsing an army like that and deploy accordingly, and i would get first volley off free and 2 units of waywatchers can take one 1 unit of gyros in 1 volley if they dont miss anyway its theroy crafting in forum im happy to vs it if we match on ladder no problem for me.

    As with the 2nd army its only a problem if the opponent knows you got scouts, and if QB he has no way of knowing, you can come at him from the back with 3 scout units and easly rout 1 or 2 warmachines before you get aimed with rangers, cannon is not a problem for infantry as you just deploy in thin line, so once his ranged start facing your ranged you can advance your infantry without taking shots, if he faces back than stop your infnatry or just advance the units that are out of range of his shooting and with your scouts back to shooting slayers and warmachines, the only problem for this build is ironbreaker box used by good player, and only because if its bad player you just run your mage and make him use all his bombs from auto fire.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 589Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    6 waywatcher build would smash that and i would not play on a wood heavy map.

    Coming back to this, I think you've never actually faced 12 gyro steam guns with 6 waywatchers. I appreciate the confidence but I call bull. happy to test it sometime of you like :)

    RE the larger strat (which i appreciate you sharing), if the dwarfs brought a cannon i dont follow how you manage to take it out with slayers and the rest of the dwarf army guarding it? stalkers face off against dwarf stalkers and if the dwarf army is deployed and relatively safe the dwarf rangers can protect war machine. Lore of shadows is probably the main leg up the elves have, but dwarfs have options of missile resistence runes if needed. Plus fiery ring of thory is solid magic on the dwarf side.

    anyhow sounds more like a skill-differential strat than an autowin cheese. most WE players seem to attempt some variant of that i just get the feeling you're a pro at the micro relative to your dwarf foes.

    actually i have twice, i always check unit count so i would know if im vsing an army like that and deploy accordingly, and i would get first volley off free and 2 units of waywatchers can take one 1 unit of gyros in 1 volley if they dont miss anyway its theroy crafting in forum im happy to vs it if we match on ladder no problem for me.

    As with the 2nd army its only a problem if the opponent knows you got scouts, and if QB he has no way of knowing, you can come at him from the back with 3 scout units and easly rout 1 or 2 warmachines before you get aimed with rangers, cannon is not a problem for infantry as you just deploy in thin line, so once his ranged start facing your ranged you can advance your infantry without taking shots, if he faces back than stop your infnatry or just advance the units that are out of range of his shooting and with your scouts back to shooting slayers and warmachines, the only problem for this build is ironbreaker box used by good player, and only because if its bad player you just run your mage and make him use all his bombs from auto fire.
    The purpose of the cannon would just be to pester the flying lord not kill inf.

    As to we bringing scouts it's sort of par for the course. Rangers are scouts too and while slower they have less ground to cover to defend a perimeter.

    For both topics I'm sure your micro is much stronger than mine or most but that's not the same as a winning hand.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 484Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    6 waywatcher build would smash that and i would not play on a wood heavy map.

    Coming back to this, I think you've never actually faced 12 gyro steam guns with 6 waywatchers. I appreciate the confidence but I call bull. happy to test it sometime of you like :)

    RE the larger strat (which i appreciate you sharing), if the dwarfs brought a cannon i dont follow how you manage to take it out with slayers and the rest of the dwarf army guarding it? stalkers face off against dwarf stalkers and if the dwarf army is deployed and relatively safe the dwarf rangers can protect war machine. Lore of shadows is probably the main leg up the elves have, but dwarfs have options of missile resistence runes if needed. Plus fiery ring of thory is solid magic on the dwarf side.

    anyhow sounds more like a skill-differential strat than an autowin cheese. most WE players seem to attempt some variant of that i just get the feeling you're a pro at the micro relative to your dwarf foes.

    actually i have twice, i always check unit count so i would know if im vsing an army like that and deploy accordingly, and i would get first volley off free and 2 units of waywatchers can take one 1 unit of gyros in 1 volley if they dont miss anyway its theroy crafting in forum im happy to vs it if we match on ladder no problem for me.

    As with the 2nd army its only a problem if the opponent knows you got scouts, and if QB he has no way of knowing, you can come at him from the back with 3 scout units and easly rout 1 or 2 warmachines before you get aimed with rangers, cannon is not a problem for infantry as you just deploy in thin line, so once his ranged start facing your ranged you can advance your infantry without taking shots, if he faces back than stop your infnatry or just advance the units that are out of range of his shooting and with your scouts back to shooting slayers and warmachines, the only problem for this build is ironbreaker box used by good player, and only because if its bad player you just run your mage and make him use all his bombs from auto fire.
    The purpose of the cannon would just be to pester the flying lord not kill inf.

    As to we bringing scouts it's sort of par for the course. Rangers are scouts too and while slower they have less ground to cover to defend a perimeter.

    For both topics I'm sure your micro is much stronger than mine or most but that's not the same as a winning hand.
    Its extremely easy to dodge cannon balls with flying lord unless you bring about 3 and fire them not at same time, but overall, i'm sure the match up we're talking about is skill based which is not bad at least its not one sided like a standard WE build vs Dwarfs, i definitely do not feel the build is unbeatable or anything just that it performs really well and if the WE player plays well he can most definitely win depending on skill of his opponent.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 589Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    6 waywatcher build would smash that and i would not play on a wood heavy map.

    Coming back to this, I think you've never actually faced 12 gyro steam guns with 6 waywatchers. I appreciate the confidence but I call bull. happy to test it sometime of you like :)

    RE the larger strat (which i appreciate you sharing), if the dwarfs brought a cannon i dont follow how you manage to take it out with slayers and the rest of the dwarf army guarding it? stalkers face off against dwarf stalkers and if the dwarf army is deployed and relatively safe the dwarf rangers can protect war machine. Lore of shadows is probably the main leg up the elves have, but dwarfs have options of missile resistence runes if needed. Plus fiery ring of thory is solid magic on the dwarf side.

    anyhow sounds more like a skill-differential strat than an autowin cheese. most WE players seem to attempt some variant of that i just get the feeling you're a pro at the micro relative to your dwarf foes.

    actually i have twice, i always check unit count so i would know if im vsing an army like that and deploy accordingly, and i would get first volley off free and 2 units of waywatchers can take one 1 unit of gyros in 1 volley if they dont miss anyway its theroy crafting in forum im happy to vs it if we match on ladder no problem for me.

    As with the 2nd army its only a problem if the opponent knows you got scouts, and if QB he has no way of knowing, you can come at him from the back with 3 scout units and easly rout 1 or 2 warmachines before you get aimed with rangers, cannon is not a problem for infantry as you just deploy in thin line, so once his ranged start facing your ranged you can advance your infantry without taking shots, if he faces back than stop your infnatry or just advance the units that are out of range of his shooting and with your scouts back to shooting slayers and warmachines, the only problem for this build is ironbreaker box used by good player, and only because if its bad player you just run your mage and make him use all his bombs from auto fire.
    The purpose of the cannon would just be to pester the flying lord not kill inf.

    As to we bringing scouts it's sort of par for the course. Rangers are scouts too and while slower they have less ground to cover to defend a perimeter.

    For both topics I'm sure your micro is much stronger than mine or most but that's not the same as a winning hand.
    Its extremely easy to dodge cannon balls with flying lord unless you bring about 3 and fire them not at same time, but overall, i'm sure the match up we're talking about is skill based which is not bad at least its not one sided like a standard WE build vs Dwarfs, i definitely do not feel the build is unbeatable or anything just that it performs really well and if the WE player plays well he can most definitely win depending on skill of his opponent.
    Agreed sounds like a good synthesis. Thanks again for sharing.

    I'm thinking maybe an upgraded bolt thrower would be better. Cheaper and more accurate.