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"World of TOTAL WARcraft": not well liked IMO

natedognatedog Junior MemberPosts: 6Registered Users
I dedicate this thread, and solicit response in, or not in, agreement with the new online avatar system.

O.k. I know already like I sound like some stuffy lame guy or something, but try to remember the total war series started with shogun 1, and that was some time ago.

These games were made popular by a small segment of faithful (like myself)who were interested in these games, in particular to be realistic. The desire is to render the actual battlefield experience. The only exception is that you get to be the god general, who is not actually there, but gives the orders from the sky above. Other than that, it is supposed to be realistic. That is why it is important to show the guys rolling around in pain as they die on the battlefield right? Why we need to render the terrified fleeing units as they scatter? right?

Here are some online features that I believe should be done away with.
In short gentlemen, I thank you for your years of tireless work, but I feel you may have betrayed your roots a little. This system you have devised is reminiscent of World of Warcraft, and is designed to put victory for sale to the biggest loser with no life, but "mad hacks". That is unacceptable to the serious players of this particular kind of game.

The skill tree: real battlefield experience does not work like this at all. It is offensively unrealistic for this kind of game. So much so that one might even draw the logical
conclusion that sangoku-jidai did not actually happen, based on your game.

there is no: 1. Immunity to spears
2. Running faster than is humanly possible.
3. Reloading a primitive musket while you are running.
4. Accuracy beyond the capabilities of a weapon, namely matchlock.
5. "bonus" to cavalry beyond the capability of the weapon.
6. Stopping charging cavalry because of said bonus, beyond physical
reality of mass moving and continuing to move.
7. Troops that function without any kind of fatigue.
8. More "hit-points". In fact "hit-points" in general are fantasy.
9. Armor far superior than any technology of the day can create.
10. Samurai wielding virtual "light-sabers".
11. magically being able to route at top speed, no mater how
fatigued you were prior to routing.
12. Let me just say immunity to spears one more time, what ****
even thought this obvious defiance of the laws of physics
would be o.k? To the point of making this a fantasy role playing
game now instead of a strategy one?
13. Magic arrows that harm morale with their sound or some ****
idea like that, strait out of D&D. Can I just have my general cast
a fireball or fly a dragon now please? disappear in broad daylight
from plain sight while wearing a clown outfit, because he is a
lvl 80 rogue to. there is a reason I don't play that
game.

So yea, that's the idea, we can have fun with this, flame here or whatever, I still like total war but online play, a little disappointing, the avatar system is awesome, but most of the skill tree and a lot of the retainers are unrealistic, or unfair, and often both. Already saw one great thread {unfair} that I would love to link here as an example.
Post edited by natedog on

Comments

  • natedognatedog Junior Member Posts: 6Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/19887-Total-war-unfair

    great example, I see your story and rebut with this one:

    a general avatar stopped my battle winning charge into the rear of his lines.

    forces: lvl 1 great guard, lvl 3 yari cav x 2, my general VS his general.
    head on charge, open field.
    real life result: 175 guys with spears charge 30 guys with swords, speed of contact is approx 70 mph.
    after first contact the 30 guys get absolutely slaughtered, most sent flying. if they were real skilled maybe they
    killed 30 from the charging force, at best.

    World of total warcraft result:
    he no doubt had immunity to spears, armor, and hitpoint retainers, namely fantasy role playing related abilities, not from reality,
    so yea, he won.
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited June 2011
    I find it hard to draw your list of issues to your goal of seeking agreement or not with the avatar progression system.

    Most of what you outline are mechanical problems, that I agree should be addressed. Some are simply a by-product of comparing x to y, but having to show the difference in variation within an overall functioning framework...fatigue for example: x unit should be able to run x distance, but y unit is upgraded to perform better, so it can run y distance...z unit has been upgraded higher than y, so it out-perfoms both...because x unit is the base fatigue rating, and fatigue upgrades require a noticeable effect, z may well seem superhuman. If a similar equation were applied to morale, and the base level lowered to become more realistic playwise, I think that ashi units would be extremely brittle and virtually unplayable, which means that low level players without higher tier unlocks would be truly crippled.

    While I agree that there are a number of things that don't make sense or do need tweaking, I think you are drawing a long bow in some aspects. For example, in asian warfare, particularly china and japan, various types of arrow-heads were in use for various purposes, including to cause fear to the enemy, including 'whistling' and 'humming' arrows. They weren't necessarily accurate, nor possibly overly dangerous, but perhaps the effect of ten thousand humming arrows in the air while being charged by a mass of dudes intent on chopping you apart might well have an impact on people's morale.

    Keep in mind that the retainers are simply one means of introducing variables into the battlefield play, and they are temporary variables at that. I'm absolutely certain that japan did not have as many cruddy fugu cooks as the game would lead us to believe, nor was every soldier or leader a devotee of some dude named Renyo...but checks and balances need to be introduced, and variables should be available to mitigate gameplay from stagnating. Although it may well be 'unrealistic', CA has never said that they are faithfull to historical accuracy...they make games, not simulations.
    Yes, it's me.

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  • icamefromouterspaceicamefromouterspace Senior Member Posts: 661Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    allow my to respond to a few of these.
    1. Immunity to spears
    This does not mean that the general is actually immune to them, it means spear units don't get their bonus vs cavalry when fighting against a cav unit with this trait. It is still a bad idea to charge into a spearwall even if you have "spear immunity", the unit just wont die as fast when in prolonged combat against spear units.
    2. Running speed
    The running speeds do seem a bit faster in this game, perhaps they could be a bit slower. But it's not like theyre running at lightspeed. Foot infantry move at a reasonable speed. If you want to try and measure their real life speed pick a map with a key building in it, decide how long one of the walls are and see how long it takes a unit to walk from one side of the building to the other.
    3. Reloading matchlock while moving
    Ok, yes this is quite silly. But a minor issue with a game. Probably for balancing
    4. Accuracy beyond the capabilities of a weapon, namely matchlock.
    the triggered ability that adds range is silly yes, it's a minor issue. Most likely these things were done for balancing reasons.
    5. "bonus" to cavalry beyond the capability of the weapon.
    This bonus to cavalry is a bit misleading. Spears are better for combat against cavalry than swords. While we don't know exactly how it works in the game. The way you may want to think about it is "melee attack" is basic vs infantry stats, and "bonus to cavalary" is added to the melee attack of spears when fighting cavalry (which sword units don't get) because the weapon is more effective.
    6. Stopping charging cavalry because of said bonus
    Spears in thin formations can be broken throgh by cavalry. There is also something called "spearwall" which might look like a flimsy formation, but it's actually 2 rows of people standing next to eachother, the person in back is helping to support the person in front of them (bracing them for the charge), eveyrone has their spears parallel to the ground. Any horses unfortunate enough to run into this are not happy.I can see this working IRL.
    7. Troops that function without any kind of fatigue.
    There aren't any units in the game that don't face fatigue. In fact it seems like units get fatigued faster in this game than any other.
    8. More "hit-points". In fact "hit-points" in general are fantasy.
    Ok yes, a bit silly. But only the general can get extra hit points. Think of it as having better armor or tougher skin. I'm sure after recovering from many wounds you can stand and fight better in the future. Remember generals in shogun 2 aren't like modern generals that just hang out in the office.
    9. Armor far superior than any technology of the day can create.
    I don't see where this is the case.
    10. Samurai wielding virtual "light-sabers".
    I don't understand what your saying, you don't think samurai used to have swords?
    11. magically being able to route at top speed, no mater how fatigued you were prior to routing.
    Units do move slower as they get fatigued. I'm not sure about how fast they route based on how much their fatigued. Usually if a unit gets fatigued and routes they completely surrender anyways.
    12. Let me just say immunity to spears one more time, what **** even thought this obvious defiance of the laws of physics would be o.k? To the point of making this a fantasy role playing game now instead of a strategy one?
    Again, immunity to spears it not that unbelievable. And you seem to disagree with yourself since you previously seem to argue that spears shouldn't be more effective against horses
    13. Magic arrows that harm morale with their sound or some **** idea like that, strait out of D&D. Can I just have my general cast a fireball or fly a dragon now please? disappear in broad daylight from plain sight while wearing a clown outfit, because he is a lvl 80 rogue to. there is a reason I don't play that game.
    This "magic" youre talking about is called fire. I'm sure the devs went ahead and took that leap of faith and assumed all the players knew what fire was too... I don't see why it's so far fetched that humans.. being the flammable beings that they are, are afraid of fire. Sure fire arrows may not be more deadly than normal arrows. But they look scarier. Morale is all psychological.
  • icamefromouterspaceicamefromouterspace Senior Member Posts: 661Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    natedog wrote: »
    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/19887-Total-war-unfair

    great example, I see your story and rebut with this one:

    a general avatar stopped my battle winning charge into the rear of his lines.

    forces: lvl 1 great guard, lvl 3 yari cav x 2, my general VS his general.
    head on charge, open field.
    real life result: 175 guys with spears charge 30 guys with swords, speed of contact is approx 70 mph.
    after first contact the 30 guys get absolutely slaughtered, most sent flying. if they were real skilled maybe they
    killed 30 from the charging force, at best.

    World of total warcraft result:
    he no doubt had immunity to spears, armor, and hitpoint retainers, namely fantasy role playing related abilities, not from reality,
    so yea, he won.

    If his general beat your general, a great guard, and 2 yari cav and prevented them from doing a flanking charge... then you had to have REALLY screwed up. You should have spread your cav out to hit as much surface area as possible. His general might have stopped a few of your men but the rest would have slammed into his flank.
  • DerpusDerpus Senior Member Posts: 206Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    As for the armor argument, Japanese matchlocks of this time could easily bounce off of Samurai armor if hit around its max range, as stated by Professor Noel Perrin.
  • AnjinSanAnjinSan Senior Member Posts: 472Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    Maybe he's implying 'whistling arrows' which could probably be deemed somewhat demoralizing. I'd like to base this on the statement "ignorance is bliss"... why? Yes a unit taking arrow fire would be demoralizing but let me tell you this. From personal life experience... when you know its coming at you its makes a hell of a big difference. For instance most people with sustained combat experience are pretty desensitized to the sound of gun fire. Random gun fire, even close by isn't really scary. You better believe when you hear a sonic bullet crack though, you will see the most battle hardened mother ******s run for some cover. Same with fire arrows. Nobody wants an arrow in their jugular. But I'd take that over running around with an arrow in mine and being on fire at the same time. Realistic? yes...
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    In response to all of the points that you raised;

    1. Immunity to spears - The ONLY unit that benefits from this is a 36 man generals unit, who can still be killed by units in spearwall and who has considerable difficulty hurting spear units, even with the bonus. Not a major balance issue.

    2. Running faster than is humanly possible - Running speeds seem fine to me. Maybe they're not 100% perfect, but honestly, it fits in well with the gameplay, especially when you consider the fact that if you run your troops they'll get fatigued. 95% of the speed upgrades don't work in any case, so I don't see what your problem is there.

    3. Reloading a primitive musket while you are running - could be a bit different perhaps, but not a major balance issue. A moving musket unit is in any case, extremely vulnerable.

    4. Accuracy beyond the capabilities of a weapon, namely matchlock - most of the matchlock damage is done at short ranges. If you look at a matchlock unit firing at the limit of its range you'll find that most of the shots will miss.

    5. "bonus" to cavalry beyond the capability of the weapon - so you're proposing that we drop the stats of one of the units that most players rely upon to protect themselves from cavalry? Thats going to be popular. I don't have any issues with the anti-cavalry bonuses in any case - spear units will hurt cavalry, but only if you leave them in base contact for a considerable period of time.

    6. Stopping charging cavalry because of said bonus, beyond physical reality of mass moving and continuing to move. - Again, this falls down to game balance. Most players would be pretty annoyed if you could cut down their army simply by forming your cavalry into a big block and charging. In any case, have you seen the kind of impact a cavalry spam can have on a spear line? No amount of anti-cav bonus can easily stop that momentum.

    7. Troops that function without any kind of fatigue - Fatigue does kick in, but it does seem to take a little long to do so. Not a major balance issue though.

    8. More "hit-points". In fact "hit-points" in general are fantasy. - Hit points don't seem to confer any real advantage. Most players complain that their generals die just as easily. In any case I look at a hit point bonus as being indicative of an extra layer of armour, rather than the general simply being "tougher".

    9. Armor far superior than any technology of the day can create. - Guns kill everything that charges at them - INCLUDING melee generals with full hitpoints and armour. Arrows hurt a fair bit too if your units stand under sustained fire. I don't see what the problem is. Besides, weakening armour only encourages ranged-spammers and I don't think that would have any benefits for the gameplay.

    10. Samurai wielding virtual "light-sabers". - Sword troops are vulnerable to cavalry, guns and even archers. They will still take time to cut through your line even then. If their stats were nerfed, noone would use them.

    11. magically being able to route at top speed, no mater how fatigued you were prior to routing. - I often find that pursuing infantry units are often cut down by their pursuers who are also on foot. I have no proof, but I think that fleeing units actually suffer a slight speed penalty. No issues for me here.

    12. Let me just say immunity to spears one more time, what **** even thought this obvious defiance of the laws of physics
    would be o.k? To the point of making this a fantasy role playing game now instead of a strategy one?
    - again, that term is misleading. Try charging a melee general at a spearwall and watch what happens.

    13. Magic arrows that harm morale with their sound or some **** idea like that, strait out of D&D. - Whistling arrows did actually exist during the time period and were used for signalling purposes, but also for surprising or shocking an unprepared enemy, especially during night attacks. The bonus from whistling arrows is not that substantial really (it only lasts for a very short while), especially when you consider the fact that they take longer to fire, they have to be fired at a shorter range than normal arrows and that they do very little damage when they impact on their target.

    The biggest issues have been the reload rate of matchlocks and their ability to fire into melee without any severe "friendly fire effects". That aside, the overall balance and 'feel' of the game is far better than of any of the previous TWs, which had far more issues with game balance. Sure, Shogun is not 100% historically accurate, but then again, none of the TW games have been. If you want an entirely historical game, then TW is not for you. If you want a fun wargame that is historically inspired, then the series most definitely is what you're after.

    That said, if you want to fight battles that are more historically accurate, try the classic mode. You don't get any of the perks there and the raw unit stats are pretty close to what they would have been in reality.
    RedStag
  • AnjinSanAnjinSan Senior Member Posts: 472Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    Eloquently put, if only my fingers were so long winded! +1 to the Marshal
  • natedognatedog Junior Member Posts: 6Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    Thank you for your input people!!!

    The idea was not move past his avatar but kill it, and it well should have died outright, with my survivors moving on.

    Immunity to spears is ridiculous. You are trying to make a skill at something like defending against 1 or 2 people with spears work like a general immunity to spears and that is ridiculous. Being good at defending yourself or well armored is reflected in the armor stat or the melee defense stat. Those stats then factor in force strength. When you code as a separate skill it works like a magic potion that makes you immune. When you back it with some magic hit point retainer juice and yea sure 30 vs 175 on open ground! we can do it!

    Think about the physics for a moment. 1000 pounds of horse and rider are not stopping because your friend has your back, that is as silly as not wearing your seat belt because you are just going to hold on tight instead.
    and if they are deep enough in formation, you are not gonna avoid all the points because of your immunity to spears lvl 8 action.

    I think the problem may be created by the fact that this version of total war cannot decide if yari are spear or pike troops.
    So for middle ground they give them spear wall ability which magically makes their yari a realistic (historic)15-20 feet long phalanx style weapon. Open the ranks, and now they are magically weilding the 6-8 foot version you can use in man on man combat. Real life does not work that way. They went to the battle with only 1 yari folks.

    To be a proper 10 man deep phalanx, 150 ashigaru shoulder to shoulder and ten men deep is a line thinner than the length of a single yari.

    In total world of warcraft I have seen them stop huge charges like a brick wall. 1 person deep of yari hero. It is fantasy and that is a simple fact of physics, not warfare.

    I can admire those people who will admit to the tweeks in the game, because that is what this is about, but I would like to ask the honest fans of the game, and history, to put aside how much they like leveling up, and skill trees, and world of warcraft to be honest about what I am talking about.

    It is an issue of realism created by an attempt to allow people to lvl up or customize their units, and more importantly, form them as they wish. But in doing so they created realism fails. That is a fact. The brazen ones shameless admit themselves, like immunity to spears. The other ones take a little insight and total war experience to notice, like the "needs improvement" fatigue system. I can make a post on that one thing.
  • ImaloserbabyImaloserbaby Senior Member Posts: 289Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    obviously a troll
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited June 2011
    I've had more than enough of my taste for realism, and although I enjoyed it, TW doesn't give me a limp or aches in cold weather.

    I'll say it again, it's not perfect, it needs tweaks here and there, but the avi progression system is a blend of a number of game styles, but it isn't a sim.
    Yes, it's me.

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  • icamefromouterspaceicamefromouterspace Senior Member Posts: 661Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    natedog wrote: »
    Thank you for your input people!!!

    The idea was not move past his avatar but kill it, and it well should have died outright, with my survivors moving on.

    Immunity to spears is ridiculous. You are trying to make a skill at something like defending against 1 or 2 people with spears work like a general immunity to spears and that is ridiculous. Being good at defending yourself or well armored is reflected in the armor stat or the melee defense stat. Those stats then factor in force strength. When you code as a separate skill it works like a magic potion that makes you immune. When you back it with some magic hit point retainer juice and yea sure 30 vs 175 on open ground! we can do it!

    Think about the physics for a moment. 1000 pounds of horse and rider are not stopping because your friend has your back, that is as silly as not wearing your seat belt because you are just going to hold on tight instead.
    and if they are deep enough in formation, you are not gonna avoid all the points because of your immunity to spears lvl 8 action.

    I think the problem may be created by the fact that this version of total war cannot decide if yari are spear or pike troops.
    So for middle ground they give them spear wall ability which magically makes their yari a realistic (historic)15-20 feet long phalanx style weapon. Open the ranks, and now they are magically weilding the 6-8 foot version you can use in man on man combat. Real life does not work that way. They went to the battle with only 1 yari folks.

    To be a proper 10 man deep phalanx, 150 ashigaru shoulder to shoulder and ten men deep is a line thinner than the length of a single yari.

    In total world of warcraft I have seen them stop huge charges like a brick wall. 1 person deep of yari hero. It is fantasy and that is a simple fact of physics, not warfare.

    I can admire those people who will admit to the tweeks in the game, because that is what this is about, but I would like to ask the honest fans of the game, and history, to put aside how much they like leveling up, and skill trees, and world of warcraft to be honest about what I am talking about.

    It is an issue of realism created by an attempt to allow people to lvl up or customize their units, and more importantly, form them as they wish. But in doing so they created realism fails. That is a fact. The brazen ones shameless admit themselves, like immunity to spears. The other ones take a little insight and total war experience to notice, like the "needs improvement" fatigue system. I can make a post on that one thing.

    It took me a while, but it doesnt seem like your complaining about immunity to spears (btw your idea of what the immunity to spears ability does is wrong), your complaining about spear units being overly effective at blocking charges. Which maybe has some merit. The spearwall formation should probably be deeper, maybe 3-4 ranks deep looks more believable.... But the game also has to limit the number of units that can be shown on screen. These are technical limitations of the game. Even though spearwalls are only 2 ranks deep, I still see it being effective. These are warriors on a stable footing who are ready for a head on charge. These aren't just some guys hangingout standing on the balls of their feet drinking soda.

    If you actually watch a katana cav charge straight into a spearwall you will see them knock over several of the yari infantry, just they wont plow through them because the horses on the frontlines are also falling over as theyre being impaled with giant sticks.

    As far seemingly small units blocking charges of entire cav units, you need to spread your cav unit out, secondly you want to avoid even some of your cav getting blocked by spear units. Men in a unit won't easily split up, they try to stay together and stay organized. The issue here isnt that a small unit is actually stopping 40 horses at full speed, its that the men riding the horses are telling their horses to slow down... additionally no living animal is going to run full speed into a large stick pointing right at them waiting to impale it through the chest. Instead of saying "how can these spearwalls stop these horses" you should be saying "how are these horsemen getting their horses to actually run to their certain death?"
  • ImaloserbabyImaloserbaby Senior Member Posts: 289Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    additionally no living animal is going to run full speed into a large stick pointing right at them waiting to impale it through the chest.

    of course they do
  • blentablenta Banned Posts: 530Banned Users
    edited June 2011
    .. additionally no living animal is going to run full speed into a large stick pointing right at them waiting to impale it through the chest.

    Did you ever see horseman place cloth over the horses eyes? They do that before the charge and the ''animal'' keeps going, hits a spear and still keeps going for a while at least, while the spearmen... well lets just say he wont be going home...
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  • AnjinSanAnjinSan Senior Member Posts: 472Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    Not to mention war horses weren't just beasts to be ridden. There were trained since birth to be fighting machines cleaving heads left and right with their hoofs. They didn't simply just stand there and obey orders.
  • Jay MooreJay Moore Junior Member Posts: 15Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    natedog wrote: »
    2. Running faster than is humanly possible.
    4. Accuracy beyond the capabilities of a weapon, namely matchlock.
    7. Troops that function without any kind of fatigue.
    8. More "hit-points". In fact "hit-points" in general are fantasy.
    9. Armor far superior than any technology of the day can create.
    10. Samurai wielding virtual "light-sabers".

    Although I agree with some of the items on your list these I find are acceptable.

    2. Ever join cross country? They train us to run faster over a long distance, teaching us breathing techniques and even how to properly kick our feet out while running to use the least amount of energy possible while maintaining a certain speed.

    4. The base accuracy in the game is purely that, base accuracy. Someone can hand my sister a matchlock and because she never fired a matchlock in her life, she probably won't know how point, aim, and shoot. The training matchlock ashigaru, samurai, and monks may be different but yeah in the end the gun is capped at a certain accuracy so I can see where your argument here would be valid.

    7. Are you talking about second wind? Because if you're talking about increasing the skill points of fatique resistance that is still considered realistic when someone learns how to better control their stamina and gains it as well through experience.

    8. I don't think hit points are fantasy. I'm pretty sure Muhammad Ali can take more punches than my grandma. And sure a punch is different from a stab wound but still, some guys can still take more bullets than others. Example: Matchlock bullet goes through skinny guy more easily, causing fatal exit wound. Tough muscle guy is thicker in general, matchlock bullet fails to go through his body and create same exit wound therefore this dude lives to fight on. And I understand there are certain areas of our bodies that would cause a fatality so in a game this should be given a percentage.

    9. Mass produced armour is less superior in those days than carefully handcrafted armour using limited and rare materials of that day. I can give you a Kendo outfit made of leather and thick cloth but my rich cousin might be able to afford an armour suit made by tying plates of metal together.

    10. I'm honestly not sure what you mean by this one.
    Those of us who face reality, have given up. Those of us who pursue dreams, fight on.
  • CinnamonCinnamon Member Posts: 49Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    Jay Moore wrote: »
    4. The base accuracy in the game is purely that, base accuracy. Someone can hand my sister a matchlock and because she never fired a matchlock in her life, she probably won't know how point, aim, and shoot. The training matchlock ashigaru, samurai, and monks may be different but yeah in the end the gun is capped at a certain accuracy so I can see where your argument here would be valid.

    Matchlocks were a revolution in warfare precisely because they they needed far less training to be really effective compared to other weapons. You really could just hand one to your sister and have her be effective in a fairly short time (actually women are generally better marksmen than men). Compare that to the longbow which is a weapon that is known for requiring regular training to be really effective. You can make an argument that being an expert with longbows could let you fire more quickly, accurately and use heavier more powerful bows and so on. But there is more of a built in limit with things like matchlocks.
  • ImaloserbabyImaloserbaby Senior Member Posts: 289Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    Cinnamon wrote: »
    (actually women are generally better marksmen than men).

    where do people come up with **** like this? 99% of stats are made up on the spot? something like that
  • icamefromouterspaceicamefromouterspace Senior Member Posts: 661Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    where do people come up with **** like this? 99% of stats are made up on the spot? something like that

    And about 90% of all stats can be made to say whatever you want.. 85% of the time.
  • KatsumotoGKKatsumotoGK Senior Member Posts: 692Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    13. Magic arrows that harm morale with their sound or some ****
    idea like that, strait out of D&D. Can I just have my general cast
    a fireball or fly a dragon now please? disappear in broad daylight
    from plain sight while wearing a clown outfit, because he is a
    lvl 80 rogue to. there is a reason I don't play that
    game.

    The romans had javelins which would whistle while in the air causing fear in the enemies. I think you don't understand the actual noise of death coming at you which would make u **** your pants. Whistling arrows is historically correct and the demoralization is accurate.
  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 7,078Registered Users, Cakes!
    edited June 2011
    we ain't playing a fantasy game people. We play a Video game. And in the history of video games, these non realistic things keep popping up every time again. Why ? Because it's a video game.

    Games never were, never are and NEVER will be based on 100 % realism. They are mainly based on 'gameplay', 'balancing' and 'pacing'. I'd say, research these 3 points carefully before calling this a fantasy game.

    I do add here that many of these unit abilities and upgrades are based on real soldier abilities. Ofcourse, in shogun 2 they are much more effective than soldiers had in real life, but then again. It's a video game guys! It's not Real Life.

    And Come on. Why do you call it WoW ? Just because these useless reasons ? If you are going to act like this, I'd call every total war game a fantasy game. Since when does the commander fly over the battlefield, command the general in battle, command the troops in battle with a few mouse clicks and still being the nation's leader?

    You are right. It's a video game :D
    Grudge's Mods
    Total War: Karling - Coming soon...-ish
    Grudge's Total War: Attila - Sassanid UI skin here on the Steam Workshop
  • RTKAbuRTKAbu Senior Member Posts: 1,344Registered Users
    edited June 2011
    Some people indeed cant make the difference between a videogame and simulater. In all means, this isnt a simulator, its a game inspired by history and real facts, but gameplay above all is the main objective. They created a few different general trees to create more strategical options and possibilitys, yes, i agree immunity to spear isnt good if you compare it to real history, but gameplaywise it balance out the 3 main general trees. Most of the things we know about ancient warfare are fairytales anyway, do you think Napoleon could really rally an intire army, or inspire, war was good planning, have better forces, and most importent you needed some luck that it worked out the way you planned.

    Yes this is a fantasy game, but inspired by history. The fact that this game in single player doesnt follow the main accepted history of Japan shows that, its pure fantasy, SF. But isnt that the cool thing, that you got the possibility to change history in an alternate reality in the game? That you could play with the germans in RTW and beated the hell out the Romans? That you could try to let mori clan dominate Japan instead of the real clan in history. That you can try to use all female armies to conquer Kyoto?

    You can complain about many things in this game if you want 'historical accuracy' (if you believe in that though, but i think you need to go to youre university in town and ask a professer if that definition even exsist....), veterans who are recoved after 1 battle not playing with them, armies with max 20 devisions etc etc. You can complain about almost everything, but what people mostly want is a bit of a balanced game, good addicting gameplay, and good grafix, and most of all, a stable game of course (no bugs, things which were promised working).

    If you want a pretty game which is maybe closest to the reality you look for download the mod NTW3(Napoleon Total War 3, its a mod of NTW), its epic, 3vs3 battles take around 2-4 hours, its slowly paced, but real epic, a bad move can end it, but that game got a total different audience then the buyers of most games including this one. I myself dont got the patience nor the time for something like that.
  • blentablenta Banned Posts: 530Banned Users
    edited June 2011
    I can only say that if one part of the gameplay follows a set of rules its not right for another part to follow a different set of rules.
    Example : Takes about 10 bow volley for a unit to start wavering but it takes only 2-3 matchlocks volleys to do the same.
    My YouTube battle replay channel with comments >
    http://www.youtube.com/user/perafilozof?feature=mhum
    With Total war since original Shogun, made my life better!
    .....''Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.''
    Plato, Ancient Greek Philosopher, 428 BC-348 BC
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