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The Legend of Bird Person

MukipMukip Posts: 576Registered Users
edited August 2017 in Balancing Discussions
Sarthorael is unstoppable now. It used to be cute that he could avoid magic damage and missile fire when he had a useless lore of magic, so being an anti-archer battering ram was his consolation prize. It's tactically interesting that he basically ignores the mass of enemy units and can go wherever he likes. So he was more monster than wizard and had two unique abilities (70% missile resist and ignore unit mass) as an apology for being forced to use the Lore of Metal. But suddenly, Final Transmutation!

He has magic & missile resistance plus a huge hp pool. The newly-buffed Chaos army is so fast-moving and devastating in melee that some armies need missile fire to to stand a chance, but here comes the giant pin cushion to soak up every random shot and then barge right through the enemy front line to to up their archers. Naturally you can (and should) target your missile units elsewhere and avoid him, but Wood Elves tend to waste a lot of arrows on Sarthorael when you give them move orders and it causes them to switch targets, whereas Empire get their Silver Bullets or whatever tied up in melee by him as the RoR Chaos Spawn, Dragon Ogres and Swords of Chaos charge into flanks and front line unimpeded.

And of course you can't charge him in melee because if you sent one anti-large unit at Sarthorael then he'll respond with dragon ogres or the Swords of Chaos, but if you send 2-3 units to fight them then you get final trans'd! It turns out that the problem with "punishing blobbing" is that it makes monsters units far more powerful, when the army with the monsters has the anti-blobbing spell, and then monsters have anti-large, and they can crash through front lines and engage archers, or buy 400 point warhounds or some flanking Forsaken to do it. This same faction also has some of the best infantry in the game while all this is going on. Chaos don't need to "blob" themselves, it suits them perfectly to have every fight be a 1v1 duel between units, with the occasional monster mash drive-by. So it's a huge Chaos buff. What are you supposed to do?

You can't shot him and you can't chop him, so you ignore him. All of the opponent's anti-monster units are then killed off during the battle, and at the end of the game Sarthorael is strutting around the battlefield like he owns the place having taken barely any damage. Even if the opponent somehow survived the one-two punch of Chaos monsters and infantry, at the end they will have nothing left to kill Sarthorael with. He'll terrorize the remnants off the field or just straight up murder them, himself fighting to the last breath of course as an unbreakable monster.

Of course, not every Chaos player in quick battle knows how to take full advantage of all this, but when they do then it's swift doom for the opposing army.
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Comments

  • lucibuislucibuis Posts: 2,495Registered Users
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,527Registered Users
    Whose genius idea was it to create a large unit with an unstoppable charge graphic that also can't be shot appropriately by arrows and never runs away?

    He's actually the uber chariot vs dwarfs, who still have to shoot him because there's no other option.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Whose genius idea was it to create a large unit with an unstoppable charge graphic that also can't be shot appropriately by arrows and never runs away?

    He's actually the uber chariot vs dwarfs, who still have to shoot him because there's no other option.

    because they have no snare...
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,527Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    eumaies said:

    Whose genius idea was it to create a large unit with an unstoppable charge graphic that also can't be shot appropriately by arrows and never runs away?

    He's actually the uber chariot vs dwarfs, who still have to shoot him because there's no other option.

    because they have no snare...
    Yup.
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Posts: 986Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    This is exactly why the Dwarfs need a re-design of their Rune Magic or at least a Deamon Slayer, because they won't be getting a Master Rune of Deamon Slaying.
  • RethmarRethmar Posts: 49Registered Users
    He has more mass then dragons giants and mammoths.....
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,527Registered Users
    Just to pile on again, a friggin unbreakable unit doesn't even care how much damage it takes. It's as effective at 1k health as it was at the start of the fight. Stupid.

    Steam tanks are unbreakable as well but at least they don't hop across the battlefield and have a lot fewer hit points and no missile resistance.
  • RandomTagRandomTag Posts: 1,479Registered Users
    Rolled two 6? Puff! Gone. Not in TW, though...
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,994Registered Users
    Lol cause its CA's definition of balance. Sarthoreal has always been able to ping pong across the battlefield from unit to unit.
  • wingren013wingren013 Posts: 873Registered Users
    Its a Lord of Change. It was literally one of the most points expensive things ypu could put on the Table in 8th. It's supposed to be powerful. If he's too good raise his price.
  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users
    So are you saying that chaos went feom bottom tier to top tier just because of lore of metal and couple ROR whos majority are so-so...

    Some how I doubt it.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,527Registered Users

    Its a Lord of Change. It was literally one of the most points expensive things ypu could put on the Table in 8th. It's supposed to be powerful. If he's too good raise his price.

    I don't disagree.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,405Registered Users

    So are you saying that chaos went feom bottom tier to top tier just because of lore of metal and couple ROR whos majority are so-so...

    Some how I doubt it.

    Yep and nerfs to other factions all the changes to a lot of lore of magic

    But yeah their ROR gave them so much more versatility they are really gkld atm


  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 454Registered Users
    I agree with @wingren013. He's a caster AND you can be pretty liberal about using him in combat because of his missile/magic resist, his insane mass/pushing power, and his overall combat stats are actually decent.

    If we want him to be in-line with the balance of caster lords who are also good in melee like archaon and the upcoming malekith, then he should cost more. He obviously shouldn't cost as much as archaon (since we need decent separation in price brackets between lords, but maybe somewhere between archaon and kholek.

    The way he was balanced before was okay because lore of metal wasn't that great, but with final transmutation being a force to be reckoned with, I think we need to give big bird a price increase to compensate.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,405Registered Users

    I agree with @wingren013. He's a caster AND you can be pretty liberal about using him in combat because of his missile/magic resist, his insane mass/pushing power, and his overall combat stats are actually decent.

    If we want him to be in-line with the balance of caster lords who are also good in melee like archaon and the upcoming malekith, then he should cost more. He obviously shouldn't cost as much as archaon (since we need decent separation in price brackets between lords, but maybe somewhere between archaon and kholek.

    The way he was balanced before was okay because lore of metal wasn't that great, but with final transmutation being a force to be reckoned with, I think we need to give big bird a price increase to compensate.

    But guys his big BIG weakness is that he is REALLY vulnerable vs lords or cav if you get karl franz on him and any cav unit the bird fall in 3 sec


  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,934Registered Users
    Max resistance be it magical, missile or physical should be 60%
  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    50% is better...60% still way too high...
  • EarthpacEarthpac Posts: 68Registered Users
    Sathoreal being great at melee is a side-effect of CA not being arsed to give him flying animations and make him a true flying monster in my opinion.

    Instead making him a true flying monster CA have given him the longest charge acquisition range in the game and a charge animation that shows his wings being used. The problem with having such a long acquisition range is that monsters generally can't be knocked out of their charge animations because they're too large & have too much mass and so we have the problem now where he can just select a new target and instantly charge them.

    If CA really wanted to fix it, Sathoreal should really be made a flying monster and no longer have his stupid charge range. This would also make him more useful as a caster, as he's supposed to be.

    We also have the problem that, despite being a Lord of Change, he's no better at casting then any other wizard. There's still no way to differentiate between different level casters at all.

    I can't see him being fixed any time soon tbh, at least until the Lord of Change is added as a general unit and CA has to make them fulfil their proper role.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,934Registered Users
    60% is high but would still show that the unit has clear advantage vs this type of attack yet its not a waste attacking it.
  • RandomTagRandomTag Posts: 1,479Registered Users
    Lord of Change only have the default daemonic ward save of 5+ (basically translate to 33% ward save against everything in TW) plus Tzeentchian Daemon's reroll of ward save roll of 1. Nothing particular, so to speak.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    his animaiton makes him powerful and mayhe missile resist otherwise hes pretty expensive without any other cool abilities or items ,if you nerf him one way you have to buff him other way

    Balance Is A Lie

  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 3,572Registered Users
    Kholek is probably just as popular ask Sarthorael now. Sarthorael has almost no armor and no armor piercing damage. He is basically helpless without his spells.
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,118Registered Users
    @Mukip

    100% agreed. I'm glad to see threads asking for Chaos nerfs, I thought I never would be able to see this day xD. Talking seriously, Chaos needs some adjustements but I only hope it gets incremental nerfs to avoid make this factions UP again.

    Sarthorael and Final T look like the biggest offenders now.

  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users
    You guys are dellusional, the only thing that changed about Sath is lore of metal. If a spell is too strong just ask for that particular spell to be toned down. Sath was not OP before, he is not OP now either. He is just annoying to deal with as he have many downsides... Nothing changed basically!
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    Busa1227 said:

    @Mukip

    100% agreed. I'm glad to see threads asking for Chaos nerfs, I thought I never would be able to see this day xD. Talking seriously, Chaos needs some adjustements but I only hope it gets incremental nerfs to avoid make this factions UP again.

    Sarthorael and Final T look like the biggest offenders now.

    and both go hand in hand,if ft gets nerfed chaos is then going straight to tier 3 from tier 1,only 1 spell and few units build is keeping them in tier rest of the stuff is bad whether be abilities,items,units,spells...etc

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,118Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    We are not being dellusional, Sarthorael was just like Morghur is.... All we know he is OP but no one complains about it because Beastmen is one of the weakest factions. Now Chaos is strong enough to talk about Sarthorael.

    TBH, the main reason because I want a Sarthorael nerf if because I want to see Archaon being an useful pick for Chaos. Not even if Archaon would get AP damage, he simply can't compete against Sarthorael.

  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    btw this questing cup chaos lost 2 games as sathoreal,even against factions which people are touting chaos is powerful

    Balance Is A Lie

  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    Sarthorael is really OP to dwarf and WE...
  • macgmaermacgmaer Posts: 78Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    sarthoreal is the most viable lord that chaos has vs all the factions, i agree he should have been able to fly and maybe ca gave him this charge animation because of this but stop complaining that you cant gun him down.. just dive bomb him or stick some demis on him when he charges through to your gunners. his 70% missile resist is the only reason hes picked vs emp since emp players want to use noob nets and gunners to win the game. i wanted to use kholek after the buff but quickly remembered why he sucks, poor guy was gunned down before lines even met. since this strategy does not work on sarth you can always dive bomb. if his charge animation is giving u that much trouble just net him and surround him with infantry demis and lord. however this is when final transmutation comes in play, but you can always avoid it and if the player sticks it on one of your units just pull it out of the engagement, since the overcasted spell costs a lot of mana thats his magic gone for the most of the game. remember he has no healing potion so any damage is good damage
  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    macgmaer said:

    his 70% missile resist is the only reason hes picked vs emp since emp players want to use noob nets and gunners to win the game.

    Noob Net hahahahahaha,I like this Nickname.
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