Why Morathi corruption is a step backwards

Jeckl#9822

So Morathi is head of the Chaos Elfs proof is here with screen caps curtesy of HisShadowBG

HisShadowBG said:

As you may be aware Morathi's faction of the DE spread Chaos corruption (as evidenced by the difference between the land near where she starts.

Befor Morathi:
https://youtu.be/5vq6EORl57A?t=4m35s

After Morathi:
https://youtu.be/h7e3jCd62C0?t=5m54s

note the standard Chaos hellscape, in all it's samey glory)

Now I am sure some of you will say "Well this isn't ruining the DE and Morathi, it just returning them to the old lore and I like that old lore, it was good"

Well sorry to say but it's not and please let me explain y reasoning for this.

First off having Morathi as her own agent gives her much more, well agency as well as nuance. She is someone who just wants to get what she wants and will do evil to get it because she feels she must. She is not a follower of a Chaos god, she (like Nagash) is just that big of a bastard all by her self.

For example why does she tell Malekith he should be king of the Elves? As her own agent it's because she feels entitled to the throne and thus her son too. As a Chaos follower, it is so Chaos can rule.

Why does she encourage cults of the Dark Elven Gods (the evil Dark Elf gods)? As her own agent it's because it gives her a way to influence and control DE society, as a follower of Chaos it is because that is what she believes, no quest for power, this is just her religion.

Why does she want to undo the vortex? As her own agent it's so she can remake the world as she sees fit (because she thinks she can do that), as a servant of Chaos it's just to allow Chaos to take the world.

It is her choices that lead to the splintering of the Elves and the evil of the DE society, not because she follows Chaos. It is her choice to undo the vortex because she thinks she can remake the world, not because her god tells her to.

This also goes for DE society as a whole

Why are they evil? As their own agents, it's because they are raised in a society that encourages and rewards such behaviour (you also have a bit of the 'bully chain' going here, ie. person 1 bullies person 2 who then takes out their feelings on person 3). With a Chaos servant as literally the number 2, it's just that Chaos is evil and corrupts people (and elves)

From a gameplay perspective it is also a major step backwards.

Now some people think it adds more variety, but it doesn't (or if it does it makes them TOO different, in effect creating a third Elf faction in this game)

How does it do this? Well it reduces the number of Dark Elf factions. What do I mean by that? Well since Morathi spreads Chaos corruption, if you play Malekith and confederate with her then you have all these provinces full of Chaos corruption (and all the fun that brings) and reverse that if you play as Morathi, now you have a group of untainted lands.

It also makes Morathi's faction another one spreading corruption, making it extremely similar to the Skaven (with whom the DE already share the loyalty mechanic) as well as Norsca/wintertooth (the other settled faction that spreads Chaos). Which reduces the diversity and variety of the races rather then increases it.


And now we have proof

https://twitter.com/totalwar/status/906322522165075969/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23906322522165075969

Morathi leads the Chaos Elfs, serves Chaos and spreads Chaos.

Waste of a character

waste of a faction

waste of time

Andkat

Following Chaos is fundamentally about the quest for personal power and immortality/ascension. That's the entire point. It's a Darwinian race to godhead dancing to the whims of insane deities. There's no self-sacrifice (beyond incidental catastrophic damage to mind and body from the gifts/curses of the Chaos Gods) or abasement of personal desire. Malekith already seeks power by his own means; having Morathi appeal to a higher power whose ultimate aims are inconsistent with the personal ambitions of her son as the mechanism of her ascension makes her far more distinct and creates a more fundamentally interesting tension amidst the Dark Elves. Chaos isn't purely some abstract, arbitrary corrupting force; it is derived from and feeds off of the emotions of living things, and each god exemplifies, rewards, and induces the most extreme manifestations thereof. It is difficult to imagine those more suited to such a path than immensely ambitious and depraved wielders of dhar who were raised in a thoroughly cruel and darwinian society to begin with.

FinishingLast#1402

This shouldn't have too big of an affect on you since you aren't buying the game. I have no problem with this design path as it provides a corruption mechanic that will not be very present in game 2 since it'll only be Skaven and Morathi since Lizardmen and High Elves don't have one at all. This gives variation and obstacles to overcome. Lore wise, I don't really care, but it adds another gameplay element.

Jeckl#9822

Andkat said:

Following Chaos is fundamentally about the quest for personal power and immortality/godhead. That's the entire point. It's a Darwinian race to godhead dancing to the whims of insane gods. Malekith already seeks power by his own means; having Morathi appeal to a higher power whose ultimate aims are inconsistent with the personal ambitions of her son as the mechanism of her ascension makes her far more distinct and creates a more fundamentally interesting tension amidst the Dark Elves.

She's not appealing though, in old lore she was a follower of Chaos a worshiper. Something CA has gone up to 11 on in this case.

She already has goals in conflict with her son. He wants to rule the world as it is and she wants to remake it into something new.

There is already tension amongst them (and DE as a whole) because they are both power hungry megalomaniacs.

Morathi is a Dark Elf Nagash, a powerful evil witch who doesn't need Chaos to be a completely evil person.

Andkat

I'd say Morathi embracing the path of Chaos is far more interesting than the alternative, precisely because something like Nagash already exists; it is more elegant and appealing to have elements of the setting tie together rather than just have an arbitrary mishmash of conceptually convergent but metaphysically totally independent big bad evils. The excuses used to partition the different incarnations of how Dhar is applied (Chaos/Skaven, Necromantic, Dark Elf) and the lack of examples of cross-corruption therefrom are already pretty arbitrary and irritating.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

If i'd have a Cent for everytime somebody claimed that CA Ruined X by doing Y...

Geldor

There are many ways to be a Chaos follower. Even in the older lore, Morathi's relationship with Slaneesh was never depicted as a clear principal - agent relationship, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm sure she thinks she is in control of the Chaos powers she is using, that these a personal tool for her own empowerment. Of course in the end - most Chaos followers will find out that that things don't go as planned.

I can see though, that using older lore is a divisive step, because definitely some people will prefer the newer lore.

Like FinishingLast I think it was mainly done for gameplay reasons. To differentiate the two DE factions.

HisShadowBG#8316

Andkat said:

I'd say Morathi embracing the path of Chaos is far more interesting than the alternative, precisely because something like Nagash already exists; it is more elegant and appealing to have elements of the setting tie together rather than just have an arbitrary mishmash of conceptually convergent but metaphysically totally independent big bad evils. The excuses used to partition the different incarnations of how Dhar is applied (Chaos/Skaven, Necromantic, Dark Elf) and the lack of examples of cross-corruption therefrom are already pretty arbitrary and irritating.

And things like Chaos worshipers don't exist in large quantities?

Jeckl#9822

Geldor said:

There are many ways to be a Chaos follower. Even in the older lore, Morathi's relationship with Slaneesh was never depicted as a clear principal - agent relationship, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm sure she thinks she is in control of the Chaos powers she is using, that these a personal tool for her own empowerment. Of course in the end - most Chaos followers will find out that that things don't go as planned.

I can see though, that using older lore is a divisive step, because definitely some people will prefer the newer lore.

Like FinishingLast I think it was mainly done for gameplay reasons. To differentiate the two DE factions.

So where did the bride of Slannesh thing come from? (genuine question)

I can see that thinking but it is poorly done and using Chaos was the worst way to make it different (think her cult getting it's own corruption would have been best way), since it makes her a servant spreading Chaos.

BillyRuffian#6250

A couple of posts removed. This thread will run a lot more smoothly without the personal comments.

Jeckl#9822

BillyRuffian said:

A couple of posts removed. This thread will run a lot more smoothly without the personal comments.

Thanks

Galvinized_Iron

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

If i'd have a Cent for everytime somebody claimed that CA Ruined X by doing Y...

Actually CA ruined Y by doing X. Stop twisting my words!

Montresor

Jeckl said:

For example why does she tell Malekith he should be king of the Elves? As her own agent it's because she feels entitled to the throne and thus her son too. As a Chaos follower, it is so Chaos can rule.

Why does she encourage cults of the Dark Elven Gods (the evil Dark Elf gods)? As her own agent it's because it gives her a way to influence and control DE society, as a follower of Chaos it is because that is what she believes, no quest for power, this is just her religion.

This is a misunderstanding of the setting. As has been pointed out, the majority of the followers of Chaos do so because they have their own agendas, not because they wish to see "Chaos" be empowered by their actions. They seek power through Chaos. That their actions ultimately serve the Ruinous Powers more than themselves is the effect, not necessarily the intent.

To take a very old example from Zaragoz (an old Warhammer novel by Brian Craig), the devout priest Arcangelo makes a pact with Chaos so that he can protect a girl who was in his charge. He has no love for the Ruinous Powers and he does this knowing he has damned himself utterly, but by selling his soul to evil he is able to do some small measure of good.

Chaos has long been a factor in the old Dark Elf lore. It was for a long time very heavily implied that Khaine was nothing more than an aspect of Khorne, for example. Chaos is the main theme of the setting, and everything is tied to it in some way. I am personally very happy they seem to have gone this route with Morathi. She was going to be my first LL choice for the Dark Elves anyway, but this just solidifies that for me.

Jeckl#9822

FinishingLast said:

This shouldn't have too big of an affect on you since you aren't buying the game. I have no problem with this design path as it provides a corruption mechanic that will not be very present in game 2 since it'll only be Skaven and Morathi since Lizardmen and High Elves don't have one at all. This gives variation and obstacles to overcome. Lore wise, I don't really care, but it adds another gameplay element.

Actually I am buying the game (I got the serpent god edition), cause I was very keen on it before Chaos got into the DE.

I would have an issue if it was her own thing rather then Chaos (which is a big part of game 2 already and massive in game 1)

Also why not just keep it to the Skaven, make them more unique? What is gained by making Morathi Skaven light?

DerpyRoxas

I think that pointing accusations to CA is completely wrong and you know how I think about something that it's not inherently belonging to Creative Assembly.

I like her more 6th edition than 8th, but not for TT rules or gameplay purpose, but just from a point of characterization that the 8th edition really lacked.

There's no need for crusading like Tabletop Players are currently doing for Chaos Aeldari.

Andkat

HisShadowBG said:

And things like Chaos worshipers don't exist in large quantities?

Errr...the whole point was that Chaos represents a self-consistent unifying framework for this sort of thing that also underlies the metaphysics of how souls and emotions work in the setting. Nagash and his get are the exception that proves the rule. Why do we need another example of 'arbitrarily, evil, power-hungry, decadent, and ambitious- but nah, Chaos and Daemonhood just weren't their cup of tea"?

Jeckl#9822

Montresor said:

Jeckl said:

For example why does she tell Malekith he should be king of the Elves? As her own agent it's because she feels entitled to the throne and thus her son too. As a Chaos follower, it is so Chaos can rule.

Why does she encourage cults of the Dark Elven Gods (the evil Dark Elf gods)? As her own agent it's because it gives her a way to influence and control DE society, as a follower of Chaos it is because that is what she believes, no quest for power, this is just her religion.

This is a misunderstanding of the setting. As has been pointed out, the majority of the followers of Chaos do so because they have their own agendas, not because they wish to see "Chaos" be empowered by their actions. They seek power through Chaos. That their actions ultimately serve the Ruinous Powers more than themselves is the effect, not necessarily the intent.

To take a very old example from Zaragoz (an old Warhammer novel by Brian Craig), the devout priest Arcangelo makes a pact with Chaos so that he can protect a girl who was in his charge. He has no love for the Ruinous Powers and he does this knowing he has damned himself utterly, but by selling his soul to evil he is able to do some small measure of good.

Chaos has long been a factor in the old Dark Elf lore. It was for a long time very heavily implied that Khaine was nothing more than an aspect of Khorne, for example. Chaos is the main theme of the setting, and everything is tied to it in some way. I am personally very happy they seem to have gone this route with Morathi. She was going to be my first LL choice for the Dark Elves anyway, but this just solidifies that for me.

This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed

That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.

HisShadowBG#8316

Geldor said:

There are many ways to be a Chaos follower. Even in the older lore, Morathi's relationship with Slaneesh was never depicted as a clear principal - agent relationship, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm sure she thinks she is in control of the Chaos powers she is using, that these a personal tool for her own empowerment. Of course in the end - most Chaos followers will find out that that things don't go as planned.

I can see though, that using older lore is a divisive step, because definitely some people will prefer the newer lore.

Like FinishingLast I think it was mainly done for gameplay reasons. To differentiate the two DE factions.

Thing is corruption is an overused mechanic already.She does makes pacts with demons in the newer lore but she also know it is a dangerous source of power .Also she a seer and has spend researching chaos for thousand of years(probably more than anyone) for her to be under any false impressions about it would be rather silly

AHumpierRogue#5296

Dealing with Chaos is like dealing with the Devil, many think they are the ones in control or that they are the ones benefitting from Chaos, and that once they achieve their goal they can just leave. Morathi might just think she can use Slaanesh's power to put Malekith and herself on the Throne and then cast aside Slaanesh, of course just like dealing with the devil it rarely goes as planned.

Chaos can be a very straightforward and physical sort of thing, emphasised by the Norscans and Chaos Tribes who worship them as Dark Gods, but it can also be far more subtle than that such as with most of the corruption and the empire. It was a great blow to the setting IMO when the Dark Elves were made less chaos influenced as it removed one of the big examples of non-straightforward obvious Chaos Corruption.

Jeckl#9822

Andkat said:

HisShadowBG said:

And things like Chaos worshipers don't exist in large quantities?

Errr...the whole point was that Chaos represents a self-consistent uniforming framework for this sort of thing that also underlies the metaphysics of how souls and emotions work in the setting. Nagash and his get are the exception that proves the rule. Why do we need another example of 'arbitrarily, evil, power-hungry, decadent, and ambitious- but nah, Chaos and Daemonhood just weren't their cup of tea"?

Because it makes them a more interesting faction with their own vales and goals seperate from Chaos. It works, because you have the good races: Brets, Emp, HE, Dwarfs. neutral: WE, TK, Ogers. Evil: DE Vamps (her VonC as well), Orcs. Then Chaos: WoC, DoC, Skaven, Beastmen (and here Norsca as well)

having 3 bad but can still work with the heros to fight Chaos factions doesn't make the game less interesting it adds more flavour.

SudoKnightlyNonsense

I actually like this a lot, gives Morathi something special to her faction. I was never keen on the major retcon GW did towards the Cult of Pleasure, having Elves that worship an Elf Goddess is much less severe as ones that possibly worship Slaanesh.

Jeckl#9822

Krunch said:

Dealing with Chaos is like dealing with the Devil, many think they are the ones in control or that they are the ones benefitting from Chaos, and that once they achieve their goal they can just leave. Morathi might just think she can use Slaanesh's power to put Malekith and herself on the Throne and then cast aside Slaanesh, of course just like dealing with the devil it rarely goes as planned.

Chaos can be a very straightforward and physical sort of thing, emphasised by the Norscans and Chaos Tribes who worship them as Dark Gods, but it can also be far more subtle than that such as with most of the corruption and the empire. It was a great blow to the setting IMO when the Dark Elves were made less chaos influenced as it removed one of the big examples of non-straightforward obvious Chaos Corruption.

Well either way it's not in the game since she spread Chaos corruption and turns the land into the same hellscape as all the other Chaos factions, functionally making her faction, Elf Norseca.

Galvinized_Iron

Jeckl said:

Krunch said:

Dealing with Chaos is like dealing with the Devil, many think they are the ones in control or that they are the ones benefitting from Chaos, and that once they achieve their goal they can just leave. Morathi might just think she can use Slaanesh's power to put Malekith and herself on the Throne and then cast aside Slaanesh, of course just like dealing with the devil it rarely goes as planned.

Chaos can be a very straightforward and physical sort of thing, emphasised by the Norscans and Chaos Tribes who worship them as Dark Gods, but it can also be far more subtle than that such as with most of the corruption and the empire. It was a great blow to the setting IMO when the Dark Elves were made less chaos influenced as it removed one of the big examples of non-straightforward obvious Chaos Corruption.

Well either way it's not in the game since she spread Chaos corruption and turns the land into the same hellscape as all the other Chaos factions, functionally making her faction, Elf Norseca.

Are you sure that is not just the natural geography of her home area? She could spread some other form of corruption.

Montresor

Jeckl said:

This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed

That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.

Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.

As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.

Jeckl#9822

Galvinized_Iron said:

Jeckl said:

Krunch said:

Dealing with Chaos is like dealing with the Devil, many think they are the ones in control or that they are the ones benefitting from Chaos, and that once they achieve their goal they can just leave. Morathi might just think she can use Slaanesh's power to put Malekith and herself on the Throne and then cast aside Slaanesh, of course just like dealing with the devil it rarely goes as planned.

Chaos can be a very straightforward and physical sort of thing, emphasised by the Norscans and Chaos Tribes who worship them as Dark Gods, but it can also be far more subtle than that such as with most of the corruption and the empire. It was a great blow to the setting IMO when the Dark Elves were made less chaos influenced as it removed one of the big examples of non-straightforward obvious Chaos Corruption.

Well either way it's not in the game since she spread Chaos corruption and turns the land into the same hellscape as all the other Chaos factions, functionally making her faction, Elf Norseca.

Are you sure that is not just the natural geography of her home area? She could spread some other form of corruption.

That was my hope at first, but look at the vids in my op. It shows the land before Morathi owned it (a swamp) and after (hellscape) so yeah

Also only 3 corruption icons in the DE walkthrough, Vamp, Chaos and Skaven.

HisShadowBG#8316

Anyways i really doubt they revert her cult to Slaaneshi since they already have both Atharthi and Hekarti in the game it would really conflict with that and make a mess of things .The corruption mechanic is most likely in cause of the way she goes about the ritual

Jeckl#9822

Montresor said:

Jeckl said:

This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed

That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.

Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.

As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.

May I ask why you feel that way?

As I said before I liked the change a lot, mostly because I think DE are really cool and Chaos is complete fail in Fantasy [Skaven excepted]) so taking half my fav faction and making it my least fav is a major red line for me.

HisShadowBG said:

Anyways i really doubt they revert her cult to Slaaneshi since they already have both Atharthi and Hekarti in the game it would really conflict with that and make a mess of things .The corruption mechanic is most likely in cause of the way she goes about the ritual

doing the ritual casuses Chaos to affect her provinces for x turns type thing?

That would be ok.

Doesn't look like though, but here's hoping

HisShadowBG#8316

Montresor said:

Jeckl said:

This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed

That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.

Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.

As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.

Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans

FifthOfSpaghetti

I wouldn't worry about it until we have more information on the Dark Elf gameplay, I really think this entire thread topic is an over reaction. Her corruption mechanic isn't confirmed, we don't know if they meant corruption as a mechanic or if it was a play on words. I think it's a mechanic personally but we don't even know if that would be Chaos corruption, or a new one.

Zilong

I liked the old lore because it fits in with how arrogant dark elves (and all elves really) behave. Morathi believed that she could twist Chaos into working for her without it coming back to bite her. Ultimately she'd be wrong, but she was/is too stuck up her own rear end to ever notice or believe it if someone else pointed out how she was being corrupted.

DerpyRoxas

Actually, the only one place where Chaos is a failure is 40k.
Just seeing an image of Abaddon to make the entire fandom saying, drowning in laughs, "Why aren't you badass like Archaon?". Even in Fall of Cadia he was put to shame by a common non augmented human.

Skaven have another type of corruption because they aren't telling everyone "we are here" with the chaos rift hellhole all over their places. The Horned Rat corruption is subtle even in lore. I would not like pure Chaos corruption for them. Firstly because in Fantasy the Horned Rat is hiding in Nurgle's domain (his forefather after all)
and won't highlights himself to the Big 4 to not get the "Malal treatment= being outcast". This until the End Times.