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This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed
That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.
Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.
As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.
Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans
Speak for yourself.
Formerly known as Krunch, in case you wonder where he went.
I wouldn't worry about it until we have more information on the Dark Elf gameplay, I really think this entire thread topic is an over reaction. Her corruption mechanic isn't confirmed, we don't know if they meant corruption as a mechanic or if it was a play on words. I think it's a mechanic personally but we don't even know if that would be Chaos corruption, or a new one.
Before the walkthough I would have agreed.
But if you look at the vids in my op you will see that land Morathi occupies turns into lava hellscape, which is excatly what Chaos corruption does.
Further more I consider that Morathi's Chaos Corruption must be changed.
I liked the old lore because it fits in with how arrogant dark elves (and all elves really) behave. Morathi believed that she could twist Chaos into working for her without it coming back to bite her. Ultimately she'd be wrong, but she was/is too stuck up her own rear end to ever notice or believe it if someone else pointed out how she was being corrupted.
Ok I can see the appeal.
I like the new lore because she more her own Elf, then being affected by an outside force. Thus all of her stupid decisions are fully hers.
Further more I consider that Morathi's Chaos Corruption must be changed.
It seems to me that the Cult of Pleasure was Slaaneshi for most of the setting's history and was only retconned into something else near the end. That, in my opinion, would make the old lore more true to the world and thus a better choice for this game.
If your concern is what lore is more current, well.. That's not strictly the 8th Edition. The most current Warhammer Fantasy lore comes from the End Times, and thus is the most accurate depiction of what Games Workshop envisioned for their setting. So if you are arguing that we need to stick to the 8th Edition because it is more current, we cannot also ignore the End Times and all the retcons it brought.
I liked the old lore because it fits in with how arrogant dark elves (and all elves really) behave. Morathi believed that she could twist Chaos into working for her without it coming back to bite her. Ultimately she'd be wrong, but she was/is too stuck up her own rear end to ever notice or believe it if someone else pointed out how she was being corrupted.
This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed
That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.
Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.
As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.
Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans
Speak for yourself.
Weren't you HE fan?Cause they seem to love it
She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
Op you seriously do not need to worry about this. On the one hand it could be good and we will find out in the game and then we will be happy, on the other hand it will be bad in which case there will promptly be a mod which removes it and then we will be happy. The thing about minor things like this is is that if they are not done well or implemented in a way people don't like or even if someone simply doesn't want it is that someone will make a mod and poof gone.
I liked the old lore because it fits in with how arrogant dark elves (and all elves really) behave. Morathi believed that she could twist Chaos into working for her without it coming back to bite her. Ultimately she'd be wrong, but she was/is too stuck up her own rear end to ever notice or believe it if someone else pointed out how she was being corrupted.
This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed
That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.
Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.
As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.
Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans
Speak for yourself.
Weren't you HE fan?Cause they seem to love it
I do prefer HE fans though I still like Dark Elves quite a bit. Course my favourite faction is Empire but eh, second and third favourite are Elves.
EDIT: Well, DE are my fourth favourite really, Third favourite is Ogres but still, point is I like both High Elves and Dark Elves quite a bit.
Formerly known as Krunch, in case you wonder where he went.
I liked the old lore because it fits in with how arrogant dark elves (and all elves really) behave. Morathi believed that she could twist Chaos into working for her without it coming back to bite her. Ultimately she'd be wrong, but she was/is too stuck up her own rear end to ever notice or believe it if someone else pointed out how she was being corrupted.
This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed
That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.
Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.
As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.
Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans
Speak for yourself.
Weren't you HE fan?Cause they seem to love it
@HisShadowBG Actually the HE fans have been the most "acolytes" of the 8th edition retcon, just because HE fans had... a strange interaction with Morathi. They hated her out of spite. Don't you find this funny?
I liked the old lore because it fits in with how arrogant dark elves (and all elves really) behave. Morathi believed that she could twist Chaos into working for her without it coming back to bite her. Ultimately she'd be wrong, but she was/is too stuck up her own rear end to ever notice or believe it if someone else pointed out how she was being corrupted.
This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed
That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.
Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.
As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.
Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans
Speak for yourself.
Weren't you HE fan?Cause they seem to love it
I do prefer HE fans though I still like Dark Elves quite a bit. Course my favourite faction is Empire but eh, second and third favourite are Elves.
EDIT: Well, DE are my fourth favourite really, Third favourite is Ogres but still, point is I like both High Elves and Dark Elves quite a bit.
Hehe well i did say most plus i really meant people who had them as their favorite.I guess I should have been more exact
She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
Op you seriously do not need to worry about this. On the one hand it could be good and we will find out in the game and then we will be happy, on the other hand it will be bad in which case there will promptly be a mod which removes it and then we will be happy. The thing about minor things like this is is that if they are not done well or implemented in a way people don't like or even if someone simply doesn't want it is that someone will make a mod and poof gone.
Perhaps, but I can't mod.
I can get peoples attention and maybe change minds though my arguments.
I wouldn't mind (maybe even like it) if it were anything other then Chaos corruption
Further more I consider that Morathi's Chaos Corruption must be changed.
I think it's a bit premature to throw in the "ruined" card.
Even if she is spreading Chaos corruption, it doesn't mean she's a full on Chaos servant. She could have a temporary alliance, using their power for her own ends, while fully planning on manipulating or backstabbing them once she has what she needs.
Spreading Chaos corruption by itself does not equal mindless pawn...especially for Dark Elves.
Now if they decide to go all in and make her a generic Chaos worshiper instead of a master manipulator....then I agree, that is a way more boring interpretation of the character.
But right now, we just don't have enough information to know what version we are dealing with (we can't even be 100% sure it is Chaos corruption that she's spreading...i mean it seems likely, but we don't know for sure)
So yeah...i think it would be wise to wait til they confirm what version of Morathi they are doing before jumping to conclusions and getting upset.
Op you seriously do not need to worry about this. On the one hand it could be good and we will find out in the game and then we will be happy, on the other hand it will be bad in which case there will promptly be a mod which removes it and then we will be happy. The thing about minor things like this is is that if they are not done well or implemented in a way people don't like or even if someone simply doesn't want it is that someone will make a mod and poof gone.
Perhaps, but I can't mod.
I can get peoples attention and maybe change minds though my arguments.
I wouldn't mind (maybe even like it) if it were anything other then Chaos corruption
Try to be more diplomatic, mate. The title seems to be too rude, as you have to expect everyone to shout at you "Dark Elf Equix" with this one. Peace, just love the game.
I liked the old lore because it fits in with how arrogant dark elves (and all elves really) behave. Morathi believed that she could twist Chaos into working for her without it coming back to bite her. Ultimately she'd be wrong, but she was/is too stuck up her own rear end to ever notice or believe it if someone else pointed out how she was being corrupted.
This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed
That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.
Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.
As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.
Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans
Speak for yourself.
Weren't you HE fan?Cause they seem to love it
@HisShadowBG Actually the HE fans have been the most "acolytes" of the 8th edition retcon, just because HE fans had... a strange interaction with Morathi. They hated her out of spite. Don't you find this funny?
8th edition has one story i can think of which might be liked by such HE fans. I personally dislike a lot of things about 8th edition and prefer 7th but i made my peace about them using it as a base for the game
She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
Op you seriously do not need to worry about this. On the one hand it could be good and we will find out in the game and then we will be happy, on the other hand it will be bad in which case there will promptly be a mod which removes it and then we will be happy. The thing about minor things like this is is that if they are not done well or implemented in a way people don't like or even if someone simply doesn't want it is that someone will make a mod and poof gone.
Perhaps, but I can't mod.
I can get peoples attention and maybe change minds though my arguments.
I wouldn't mind (maybe even like it) if it were anything other then Chaos corruption
Try to be more diplomatic, mate. The title seems to be too rude, as you have to expect everyone to shout at you "Dark Elf Equix" with this one. Peace, just love the game.
Well I did want to be 'click bait' so what title would you suggest?
Further more I consider that Morathi's Chaos Corruption must be changed.
Op you seriously do not need to worry about this. On the one hand it could be good and we will find out in the game and then we will be happy, on the other hand it will be bad in which case there will promptly be a mod which removes it and then we will be happy. The thing about minor things like this is is that if they are not done well or implemented in a way people don't like or even if someone simply doesn't want it is that someone will make a mod and poof gone.
Perhaps, but I can't mod.
I can get peoples attention and maybe change minds though my arguments.
I wouldn't mind (maybe even like it) if it were anything other then Chaos corruption
Try to be more diplomatic, mate. The title seems to be too rude, as you have to expect everyone to shout at you "Dark Elf Equix" with this one. Peace, just love the game.
Well I did want to be 'click bait' so what title would you suggest?
"Why I don't like Morathi corruption" Your motivation are kinda politely good and have sense, contrary to what we have seen in this forum just a month ago. We have divergences about some things, but don't ruin yourself for this nor blame CA who is already giving to us one of the best Total War ever seen.
Op you seriously do not need to worry about this. On the one hand it could be good and we will find out in the game and then we will be happy, on the other hand it will be bad in which case there will promptly be a mod which removes it and then we will be happy. The thing about minor things like this is is that if they are not done well or implemented in a way people don't like or even if someone simply doesn't want it is that someone will make a mod and poof gone.
Perhaps, but I can't mod.
I can get peoples attention and maybe change minds though my arguments.
I wouldn't mind (maybe even like it) if it were anything other then Chaos corruption
Try to be more diplomatic, mate. The title seems to be too rude, as you have to expect everyone to shout at you "Dark Elf Equix" with this one. Peace, just love the game.
Well I did want to be 'click bait' so what title would you suggest?
"Why I don't like Morathi corruption" Your motivation are kinda politely good and have sense, contrary to what we have seen in this forum just a month ago. We have divergences about some things, but don't ruin yourself for this nor blame CA who is already giving to us one of the best Total War ever seen.
Ok I will change it to 'Why Morathi corruption is a step backwards'
Further more I consider that Morathi's Chaos Corruption must be changed.
Following Chaos is fundamentally about the quest for personal power and immortality/godhead. That's the entire point. It's a Darwinian race to godhead dancing to the whims of insane gods. Malekith already seeks power by his own means; having Morathi appeal to a higher power whose ultimate aims are inconsistent with the personal ambitions of her son as the mechanism of her ascension makes her far more distinct and creates a more fundamentally interesting tension amidst the Dark Elves.
She's not appealing though, in old lore she was a follower of Chaos a worshiper. Something CA has gone up to 11 on in this case.
She already has goals in conflict with her son. He wants to rule the world as it is and she wants to remake it into something new.
There is already tension amongst them (and DE as a whole) because they are both power hungry megalomaniacs.
Morathi is a Dark Elf Nagash, a powerful evil witch who doesn't need Chaos to be a completely evil person.
You may not find it appealing, but others do. Don't act like your opinion on her isn't subjective.
The rest of your points aren't even in confliction with CAs representation of her. Her spreading "chaos" corruption doesn't stop her having conflicts with Malekith or the other Delfs interests.
Also, in the Tyrion and Teclis novels Morathi has a complex relationship with chaos.
Is she devoted to them like a standard chaos cultist? No. But she is not above allying with or (attempting) to manipulate the Dark Gods for her own benefit. In fact she even talks about taking down the Vortex (imagine that) and using it to hasten the coming of the End Times and help her ascend as a Chaos god herself.
Even without all that though.
It's a GAME CA has to try to balance lore and what's fun as well as differentiating between all the different factions and the different lords within those factions. Corruption is how they are doing it with Morathi. You can disagree with the decision, that's fine. But it has in no way ruined the Dark Elves OR her character
This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed
That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.
Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.
As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.
Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans
Speak for yourself.
I wonder how many of the people that upvoted you have DE as favorite
Following Chaos is fundamentally about the quest for personal power and immortality/godhead. That's the entire point. It's a Darwinian race to godhead dancing to the whims of insane gods. Malekith already seeks power by his own means; having Morathi appeal to a higher power whose ultimate aims are inconsistent with the personal ambitions of her son as the mechanism of her ascension makes her far more distinct and creates a more fundamentally interesting tension amidst the Dark Elves.
She's not appealing though, in old lore she was a follower of Chaos a worshiper. Something CA has gone up to 11 on in this case.
She already has goals in conflict with her son. He wants to rule the world as it is and she wants to remake it into something new.
There is already tension amongst them (and DE as a whole) because they are both power hungry megalomaniacs.
Morathi is a Dark Elf Nagash, a powerful evil witch who doesn't need Chaos to be a completely evil person.
You may not find it appealing, but others do. Don't act like your opinion on her isn't subjective.
The rest of your points aren't even in confliction with CAs representation of her. Her spreading "chaos" corruption doesn't stop her having conflicts with Malekith or the other Delfs interests.
Also, in the Tyrion and Teclis novels Morathi has a complex relationship with chaos.
Is she devoted to them like a standard chaos cultist? No. But she is not above allying with or (attempting) to manipulate the Dark Gods for her own benefit. In fact she even talks about taking down the Vortex (imagine that) and using it to hasten the coming of the End Times and help her ascend as a Chaos god herself.
Even without all that though.
It's a GAME CA has to try to balance lore and what's fun as well as differentiating between all the different factions and the different lords within those factions. Corruption is how they are doing it with Morathi. You can disagree with the decision, that's fine. But it has in no way ruined the Dark Elves OR her character
That she does but there is no need what so ever for returning her being a Slaaneshi worshiper she has more than enough connections with them without it.And still think(and hope) they didn't go with it
She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
Following Chaos is fundamentally about the quest for personal power and immortality/godhead. That's the entire point. It's a Darwinian race to godhead dancing to the whims of insane gods. Malekith already seeks power by his own means; having Morathi appeal to a higher power whose ultimate aims are inconsistent with the personal ambitions of her son as the mechanism of her ascension makes her far more distinct and creates a more fundamentally interesting tension amidst the Dark Elves.
She's not appealing though, in old lore she was a follower of Chaos a worshiper. Something CA has gone up to 11 on in this case.
She already has goals in conflict with her son. He wants to rule the world as it is and she wants to remake it into something new.
There is already tension amongst them (and DE as a whole) because they are both power hungry megalomaniacs.
Morathi is a Dark Elf Nagash, a powerful evil witch who doesn't need Chaos to be a completely evil person.
You may not find it appealing, but others do. Don't act like your opinion on her isn't subjective.
The rest of your points aren't even in confliction with CAs representation of her. Her spreading "chaos" corruption doesn't stop her having conflicts with Malekith or the other Delfs interests.
Also, in the Tyrion and Teclis novels Morathi has a complex relationship with chaos.
Is she devoted to them like a standard chaos cultist? No. But she is not above allying with or (attempting) to manipulate the Dark Gods for her own benefit. In fact she even talks about taking down the Vortex (imagine that) and using it to hasten the coming of the End Times and help her ascend as a Chaos god herself.
Even without all that though.
It's a GAME CA has to try to balance lore and what's fun as well as differentiating between all the different factions and the different lords within those factions. Corruption is how they are doing it with Morathi. You can disagree with the decision, that's fine. But it has in no way ruined the Dark Elves OR her character
I don't believe I have been, but ok.
No my point is it's not needed for their to be conflict.
She wants to remake the world with the vortex, not to become a Chaos God.
If Chaos only happens when she tries to take down the vortex, (and is limited) that is ok, but from the look of it she spreads it as a core mechanic.
I don't mind corruption I hate that it is Chaos corruption
except they have, because in game she is just another faction spreading Chaos and her followers are no longer Dark Elves, but more like Chaos Elves.
Further more I consider that Morathi's Chaos Corruption must be changed.
I liked the old lore because it fits in with how arrogant dark elves (and all elves really) behave. Morathi believed that she could twist Chaos into working for her without it coming back to bite her. Ultimately she'd be wrong, but she was/is too stuck up her own rear end to ever notice or believe it if someone else pointed out how she was being corrupted.
This is old lore and the Kaine stuff got made very clear that the Elven Gods are their own thing in 8th ed
That used to be true and honestly Warhammer is richer for having lost it. Makes the world more varied.
Yes, I am aware it's old lore, that was implied in what I wrote.
As others have indicated here, the progressive retconning of Chaos out of the Dark Elf lore was a rather unwelcome simplification. It did not, in my opinion, enrich the Warhammer setting, it diluted it.
Thing is most of the fans in the forum that like the older edition are not the DE fans
Speak for yourself.
Weren't you HE fan?Cause they seem to love it
@HisShadowBG Actually the HE fans have been the most "acolytes" of the 8th edition retcon, just because HE fans had... a strange interaction with Morathi. They hated her out of spite. Don't you find this funny?
8th edition has one story i can think of which might be liked by such HE fans. I personally dislike a lot of things about 8th edition and prefer 7th but i made my peace about them using it as a base for the game
It's generally not so smart to assume HE players (or DE or Empire or whatever, are all alike). Especially with HE & DE, I think there is also a big group which while clearly prefering one faction, also liking the other one quite a bit. I'll definitely play DE too, especially looking forward to play Morathi.
Also, it's strange that some people here make complain posts about HE-player pet-peeves over in the HE thread, and then think it's not legitimate when other faction players comment on their preferences on a DE pet-peeve issue.
But that aside, yesterday someone (I think Neko something, a DE fan as far as I can tell), posted something in the other thread concerning the same topic. That there was an older lore-snip about Morathi using the cult of pleasure to search for powerful artifacts in Lustria. That was taken from the RPG and details can be found here: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Cult_of_Pleasure
I found that to sound interesting and really fitting well with the Vortex campaign. It could involve all kind of cool quests for powerful items for Morathi, and make her campaign more focused on Lustria (Malekith more on Ulthuan), although the ultimate prize is always Ulthuan : ).
There are no Chaos Elves. Dark Elves are not Chaos Elves. Chaos worship was/is stamped out by Malekith as a threat to his own power.
The old lore was fine as far as it let Morathi practiced it in secret but to openly declare allegiance to Slaanesh is an open threat and insult to Malekith which he wouldn't allow. Even in the Malus Darkblade series (which are still awesome) Chaos worship is hidden and that was lore accurate up to the End Times. But as I've been told, lore can't stand in the way of gameplay. Although I don't know exactly why the Dark Elves need a corruption mechanic when they aren't actually corrupt. Just twisted.
Gav. Firstly, it’s great to have you hosting a Q+A session on the less rules side of the Games Devs’ jobs; I think these areas tend to get neglected in the rush to beat the snot out of the other guy.
I have 3 questions (please note that I haven’t been able to get the book yet due to recovering from an operation, so bear with me if I touch on stuff that is expanded over the last book):
1) What is the reasoning and rationalisation for the Dark Elves just turning away from Slaanesh (and being able to), and returning to Khaine? It’s not like anyone else has ever been able to turn their back on the Ruinous Powers, yet the DE achieved it and nothing is ever really made of this. Why was this background decision even taken? What benefit does Khaine give to writing up the race that Slaanesh worship wouldn’t? Conversely, what sort of opportunities does it close up?
1. The subject of Slaanesh first came up when we were looking at the High Elves background and the Cult of Slaanesh. I had a long conversation with Rick Priestley and Alan Merrett, who expressed concerns that the worship of Slaanesh was not consistent with the rest of the Dark Elf approach to the gods.
In a nutshell and without getting too metaphysical, it posed the question of why Dark Elves worship Slaanesh and at the same time also worship Khaine and not Khorne. There’s a never-ending debate about how the gods perceived by the Warhammer races are part of or separate from the Chaos Gods and this was encapsulated in the Khaine/ Khorne dichotomy. It seemed a far more plausible and characterful solution that while the Elves descended into debauchery and excess they would do so via their own pantheon of gods, just as Aenarion was a disciple of Khaine and not Khorne.
This gave me the opportunity to explore the religious side of the Elves with more vigour, in particular expanding upon the classical Greek/ Roman approach to worship that the Elves beliefs are based upon. The idea that there are darker gods in the pantheon that all Elves accept, but only the Dark Elves pray to and give sacrifice to was a nice way to lead into the the idea of the ‘Dark’ Elves. This is something that is further explored in Malekith.
The lore was updated for a reason. Going back and changing it to not make sense again is bad and those responsible should feel bad.
Following Chaos is fundamentally about the quest for personal power and immortality/godhead. That's the entire point. It's a Darwinian race to godhead dancing to the whims of insane gods. Malekith already seeks power by his own means; having Morathi appeal to a higher power whose ultimate aims are inconsistent with the personal ambitions of her son as the mechanism of her ascension makes her far more distinct and creates a more fundamentally interesting tension amidst the Dark Elves.
She's not appealing though, in old lore she was a follower of Chaos a worshiper. Something CA has gone up to 11 on in this case.
She already has goals in conflict with her son. He wants to rule the world as it is and she wants to remake it into something new.
There is already tension amongst them (and DE as a whole) because they are both power hungry megalomaniacs.
Morathi is a Dark Elf Nagash, a powerful evil witch who doesn't need Chaos to be a completely evil person.
You may not find it appealing, but others do. Don't act like your opinion on her isn't subjective.
The rest of your points aren't even in confliction with CAs representation of her. Her spreading "chaos" corruption doesn't stop her having conflicts with Malekith or the other Delfs interests.
Also, in the Tyrion and Teclis novels Morathi has a complex relationship with chaos.
Is she devoted to them like a standard chaos cultist? No. But she is not above allying with or (attempting) to manipulate the Dark Gods for her own benefit. In fact she even talks about taking down the Vortex (imagine that) and using it to hasten the coming of the End Times and help her ascend as a Chaos god herself.
Even without all that though.
It's a GAME CA has to try to balance lore and what's fun as well as differentiating between all the different factions and the different lords within those factions. Corruption is how they are doing it with Morathi. You can disagree with the decision, that's fine. But it has in no way ruined the Dark Elves OR her character
I don't believe I have been, but ok.
No my point is it's not needed for their to be conflict.
She wants to remake the world with the vortex, not to become a Chaos God.
If Chaos only happens when she tries to take down the vortex, (and is limited) that is ok, but from the look of it she spreads it as a core mechanic.
I don't mind corruption I hate that it is Chaos corruption
except they have, because in game she is just another faction spreading Chaos and her followers are no longer Dark Elves, but more like Chaos Elves.
She wants both.I remember in one of the elf books(don't remember witch) Caledor threatened her in her dream he would rather destroy the world than let her go with her mad plan and she left
She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
Following Chaos is fundamentally about the quest for personal power and immortality/ascension. That's the entire point. It's a Darwinian race to godhead dancing to the whims of insane deities. There's no self-sacrifice (beyond incidental catastrophic damage to mind and body from the gifts/curses of the Chaos Gods) or abasement of personal desire. Malekith already seeks power by his own means; having Morathi appeal to a higher power whose ultimate aims are inconsistent with the personal ambitions of her son as the mechanism of her ascension makes her far more distinct and creates a more fundamentally interesting tension amidst the Dark Elves. Chaos isn't purely some abstract, arbitrary corrupting force; it is derived from and feeds off of the emotions of living things, and each god exemplifies, rewards, and induces the most extreme manifestations thereof. It is difficult to imagine those more suited to such a path than immensely ambitious and depraved wielders of dhar who were raised in a thoroughly cruel and darwinian society to begin with.
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9 · Disagree 1AgreeBut if you look at the vids in my op you will see that land Morathi occupies turns into lava hellscape, which is excatly what Chaos corruption does.
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3 · Disagree 1AgreeI like the new lore because she more her own Elf, then being affected by an outside force. Thus all of her stupid decisions are fully hers.
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0 · Disagree AgreeIf your concern is what lore is more current, well.. That's not strictly the 8th Edition. The most current Warhammer Fantasy lore comes from the End Times, and thus is the most accurate depiction of what Games Workshop envisioned for their setting. So if you are arguing that we need to stick to the 8th Edition because it is more current, we cannot also ignore the End Times and all the retcons it brought.
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1 · Disagree 1AgreeShe had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
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1 · Disagree AgreeEDIT: Well, DE are my fourth favourite really, Third favourite is Ogres but still, point is I like both High Elves and Dark Elves quite a bit.
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0 · Disagree AgreeShe had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI can get peoples attention and maybe change minds though my arguments.
I wouldn't mind (maybe even like it) if it were anything other then Chaos corruption
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2 · Disagree 1AgreeEven if she is spreading Chaos corruption, it doesn't mean she's a full on Chaos servant. She could have a temporary alliance, using their power for her own ends, while fully planning on manipulating or backstabbing them once she has what she needs.
Spreading Chaos corruption by itself does not equal mindless pawn...especially for Dark Elves.
Now if they decide to go all in and make her a generic Chaos worshiper instead of a master manipulator....then I agree, that is a way more boring interpretation of the character.
But right now, we just don't have enough information to know what version we are dealing with (we can't even be 100% sure it is Chaos corruption that she's spreading...i mean it seems likely, but we don't know for sure)
So yeah...i think it would be wise to wait til they confirm what version of Morathi they are doing before jumping to conclusions and getting upset.
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0 · Disagree AgreeShe had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
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-1 · Disagree AgreeYour motivation are kinda politely good and have sense, contrary to what we have seen in this forum just a month ago. We have divergences about some things, but don't ruin yourself for this nor blame CA who is already giving to us one of the best Total War ever seen.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThe rest of your points aren't even in confliction with CAs representation of her. Her spreading "chaos" corruption doesn't stop her having conflicts with Malekith or the other Delfs interests.
Also, in the Tyrion and Teclis novels Morathi has a complex relationship with chaos.
Is she devoted to them like a standard chaos cultist? No. But she is not above allying with or (attempting) to manipulate the Dark Gods for her own benefit. In fact she even talks about taking down the Vortex (imagine that) and using it to hasten the coming of the End Times and help her ascend as a Chaos god herself.
Even without all that though.
It's a GAME CA has to try to balance lore and what's fun as well as differentiating between all the different factions and the different lords within those factions. Corruption is how they are doing it with Morathi. You can disagree with the decision, that's fine. But it has in no way ruined the Dark Elves OR her character
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2 · Disagree AgreeThe Skaven, Vampire Counts, and Greenskins are not allied with chaos
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1 · Disagree 1AgreeThat she does but there is no need what so ever for returning her being a Slaaneshi worshiper she has more than enough connections with them without it.And still think(and hope) they didn't go with it
She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
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1 · Disagree AgreeI understand the Skaven THINK they are serving the Horned Rat....but in the long term endgame, they are basically just clueless Chaos pawns.
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0 · Disagree AgreeNo my point is it's not needed for their to be conflict.
She wants to remake the world with the vortex, not to become a Chaos God.
If Chaos only happens when she tries to take down the vortex, (and is limited) that is ok, but from the look of it she spreads it as a core mechanic.
I don't mind corruption I hate that it is Chaos corruption
except they have, because in game she is just another faction spreading Chaos and her followers are no longer Dark Elves, but more like Chaos Elves.
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-1 · Disagree AgreeAlso, it's strange that some people here make complain posts about HE-player pet-peeves over in the HE thread, and then think it's not legitimate when other faction players comment on their preferences on a DE pet-peeve issue.
But that aside, yesterday someone (I think Neko something, a DE fan as far as I can tell), posted something in the other thread concerning the same topic. That there was an older lore-snip about Morathi using the cult of pleasure to search for powerful artifacts in Lustria. That was taken from the RPG and details can be found here: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Cult_of_Pleasure
I found that to sound interesting and really fitting well with the Vortex campaign. It could involve all kind of cool quests for powerful items for Morathi, and make her campaign more focused on Lustria (Malekith more on Ulthuan), although the ultimate prize is always Ulthuan : ).
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1 · Disagree AgreeThe old lore was fine as far as it let Morathi practiced it in secret but to openly declare allegiance to Slaanesh is an open threat and insult to Malekith which he wouldn't allow. Even in the Malus Darkblade series (which are still awesome) Chaos worship is hidden and that was lore accurate up to the End Times. But as I've been told, lore can't stand in the way of gameplay. Although I don't know exactly why the Dark Elves need a corruption mechanic when they aren't actually corrupt. Just twisted.
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0 · Disagree AgreeGav. Firstly, it’s great to have you hosting a Q+A session on the less rules side of the Games Devs’ jobs; I think these areas tend to get neglected in the rush to beat the snot out of the other guy.
I have 3 questions (please note that I haven’t been able to get the book yet due to recovering from an operation, so bear with me if I touch on stuff that is expanded over the last book):
1) What is the reasoning and rationalisation for the Dark Elves just turning away from Slaanesh (and being able to), and returning to Khaine? It’s not like anyone else has ever been able to turn their back on the Ruinous Powers, yet the DE achieved it and nothing is ever really made of this. Why was this background decision even taken? What benefit does Khaine give to writing up the race that Slaanesh worship wouldn’t? Conversely, what sort of opportunities does it close up?
1. The subject of Slaanesh first came up when we were looking at the High Elves background and the Cult of Slaanesh. I had a long conversation with Rick Priestley and Alan Merrett, who expressed concerns that the worship of Slaanesh was not consistent with the rest of the Dark Elf approach to the gods.
In a nutshell and without getting too metaphysical, it posed the question of why Dark Elves worship Slaanesh and at the same time also worship Khaine and not Khorne. There’s a never-ending debate about how the gods perceived by the Warhammer races are part of or separate from the Chaos Gods and this was encapsulated in the Khaine/ Khorne dichotomy. It seemed a far more plausible and characterful solution that while the Elves descended into debauchery and excess they would do so via their own pantheon of gods, just as Aenarion was a disciple of Khaine and not Khorne.
This gave me the opportunity to explore the religious side of the Elves with more vigour, in particular expanding upon the classical Greek/ Roman approach to worship that the Elves beliefs are based upon. The idea that there are darker gods in the pantheon that all Elves accept, but only the Dark Elves pray to and give sacrifice to was a nice way to lead into the the idea of the ‘Dark’ Elves. This is something that is further explored in Malekith.
The lore was updated for a reason. Going back and changing it to not make sense again is bad and those responsible should feel bad.
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2 · Disagree AgreeShe had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.
The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
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