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Dark Elves Battle Let's Play

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  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,455
    edited August 2017
    Katarian said:

    Seldkam said:

    *Facepalm* those dark riders were the melee variant, they had shields not the xbow variant. It took at least 30 seconds for 2 of them to kill 1 he maybe lightly armored Archer unit.

    Dat Martial Prowess tho.

    They were shot by four units of Archers/Sea Guard and one of Ellyrian Reavers even before getting into combat. Once in melee combat they were constantly being shot by multiple other units some of them from the side or rear. Any light cavalry unit is going to melt under those conditions, even so the first Archer unit broke fairly quickly due to the charge and the other one wasn't charged properly. Darren then pulled the Dark Riders out of that combat and ended up charging a unit of Sea Guard. Under those circumstances they actually performed fairly well.
    They had literally 1 other unit of archers firing from what I remember... Lemme check yea it wasn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    Here you go...


  • Phoenix99Phoenix99 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,061
    The length of the battle is outrageous.... seriously.... a ton of ranged units and the battle still lasts less than 5 minutes.... with clash being less than 3... over 20 vs 26 units... 3min main engagement.... even when half of that were ranged units....

    Seems this will be my last TW title...
  • Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806
    az88 said:

    Here you go...


    Finally someone bothered to show a proof. I thought I will die of age before that happens. Maybe I'll teach You guys something about "direct proof or didn't happen" methodology after all.

    I stay corrected by the way. This image clearly shows 3 dragons and the only possible color explanation would be red-sun, yellow-moon, blue-star. It's strange though that I never saw yellow ones on tournaments. Did noone use Moon Dragons for some reason?
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065

    az88 said:

    Here you go...


    Finally someone bothered to show a proof. I thought I will die of age before that happens. Maybe I'll teach You guys something about "direct proof or didn't happen" methodology after all.

    I stay corrected by the way. This image clearly shows 3 dragons and the only possible color explanation would be red-sun, yellow-moon, blue-star. It's strange though that I never saw yellow ones on tournaments. Did noone use Moon Dragons for some reason?
    Some people tended to just paint them like the ones on the box. The blue one was the cover art and there was a red one on the back. I saw lots of different colours show up in games (green, purple, pink, even metallics)but I suppose it depends on your area.

    I think CA have gone with the colours of the minis GW lent them. The studio Moon Dragon was yellow, so the CA one is too. I could be wrong though and I hope you can pick a Dragon's colour when you recruit it.
  • HarconnHarconn Registered Users Posts: 943
    Battle was too fast as every time and HE performed very bad - as always.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    My German Youtube-Channel - Let's Plays (Strategy, RPG, Indie,...): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChwblqvwr8XxKP0GzCcUb8Q
  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,897
    edited August 2017

    az88 said:

    Here you go...


    Finally someone bothered to show a proof. I thought I will die of age before that happens. Maybe I'll teach You guys something about "direct proof or didn't happen" methodology after all.

    I stay corrected by the way. This image clearly shows 3 dragons and the only possible color explanation would be red-sun, yellow-moon, blue-star. It's strange though that I never saw yellow ones on tournaments. Did noone use Moon Dragons for some reason?
    You could also check sources before you start berating CA, or other forum users yourself, you know? Especially since you claimed in your other thread that you knew everything there was about Warhammer lore.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Uniforms-Heraldry-High-Elves/dp/1782530134 Here's the book, or you can look online for a free version to browse through.

    GW made it so Dragons could be many different colours. The pic I showed on my last post? That is from that book, you can see the page number at the bottom if you need help finding it.
    Post edited by Nemox on
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,420


    I'll be happy to admit my overzealousness. Personally though I've never seen other themes for HE dragons than "red-orange-yellow" for Sun, "purple-blue-white" for Moon and "pure blue-white" for Star anywhere. And I played a lot of WFB tournaments back in the days.

    This is what I thought also...
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,672
    DE look overpowered as hell
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115

    az88 said:

    However, if you want GW painting justification for CA's choice, that's easy. Pick up the 7th or 8th edition HE army book. In both you have an example of an Arch Mage riding a yellow Moon Dragon. There's also a High Elf Prince riding an interestingly-coloured one...

    Great thanks for confirming my point. You see, rules clearly state that Archmage can ride Sun Dragon at best. Moon Dragons and Star Dragonsnot are exlusive to Princes. Archmages got to ride Phoenixes instead. This means that even if Your pictures are official, the Yellow dragon is a Sun Dragon, which of course fits the lore.

    BUT

    If You can provide official source for this statement:
    az88 said:

    GW are always very keen to stress to people that 'Eavy Metal miniatures are just examples and not canon.

    I'll be happy to admit my overzealousness. Personally though I've never seen other themes for HE dragons than "red-orange-yellow" for Sun, "purple-blue-white" for Moon and "pure blue-white" for Star anywhere. And I played a lot of WFB tournaments back in the days.
    You are mixing things up a bit there.

    7th Edition:

    Archmage - Sun and Moon Dragon as mount options
    Mage - no dragon mount option
    Dragonmage of Caledor - always mounted on Sun Dragon


    8th Edition:

    Archmage - Sun, Moon, and Star Dragon as mount options
    Mage - no dragon mount option
    Dragonmage of Caledor - always mounted on Sun Dragon

    Mages can't ride Pheonixes, the only character that can do that is the Anointed of Asuryan
  • DrasanilDrasanil Registered Users Posts: 394
    @CA Please nerf high elves, the stupid AI did too well against the human player while only having a marginal numbers advantage.

    PS: Also please nerf whiny high elf fans , their post-to-numbers ratio is overpowered.
  • RocksitterRocksitter Registered Users Posts: 78
    Ixal said:

    Wow that was pathetic.

    Not only did the HE fold like wet paper, CA went extra cheap and made the flagship units of the HE, the dragons, simple recolours of the same model.

    Guess CA used up all the money animating the individual hairs on the Skaven and now there is nothing left for something so boring as the High Elf faction....

    No the extra money went to Denuvo.
  • Horus168Horus168 Registered Users Posts: 578
    lucibuis said:

    DE look overpowered as hell

    In what way? HE and DE actually looked pretty balanced in that video, despite the dodgy HE stats we've seen in previous videos.

    And dark riders and witch elves seemed pretty ineffective.
    What DE units looked OP to you, and why?
  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    For all the stated reasons in this thread, it's really hard to say if anything is OP or UP. Just toomany factors we don't know, Darren tried to make it look interesting, and the AI being the AI, etc.

    But if Martial Prowess still works like in the latest iteration we saw (+2MA, +12MD as long as HP are above 50%), HE likely should be more ahead before Murderous Prowess kicks-in. Otherwise they will never win in the end, because it won't get better for them. Especially if battle times are this short, for a lot of HE units, their bonus time might be less than the 90 secs of Murderous Prowess, although the benefit is much smaller. Just because healthpools drop so fast.

    But we don't know if MP is still working like that, or not. And that's an issue that could be solved anyway be further balancing.

    Another problem for HE might be hat they don't have AP, fire, or poison arrows, range is great and all, but this time they shot their hearts out almost uncontested and still couldn't touch armored troops much. They might need to do a bit more damage and reduce range to not make hem OP. Also something that could be balanced relatively easy though.

    Black Guard looked pretty powerful, but then, that's a unit that should look powerful.
  • GoslingGosling Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,887
    Great, but Witch Elves too calm!
    "I'm gonna stomp 'em to dust. I'm gonna grind their bones. I'm gonna burn down dere towns and cities. I'm gonna pile 'em up inna big fire and roast 'em. I'm gonna bash heads, break faces, and jump up and down on the bits that are left.


    An' den I'm gonna get really mean."

    Grimgor Ironhide, Black Orc Warboss.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,420
    edited August 2017
    Gosling said:

    Great, but Witch Elves too calm!

    They should look angry even when they are idle...

    I don't like that yellow dragon... Why did CA use striking yellow for that dragon?
  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    It's one of the colors usecby Games Workshop in the more recent army books for Moon Dragons. If you look at page 4 of this thread, there is a more detailed explanation.
  • VincentNZVincentNZ Registered Users Posts: 953
    The things I noticed:

    I was not bothered by the looks of the Witch Elves, did their abs go, or was it just the atmosphere of the last quest battle that made them look awkward?

    Has someone else noted that the deployment zones were really close together? Basically all parties could shoot at each other right from the start it seems. Is that because it is a settlment map? Or are the maps smaller? Personally I do like it, since in some cases you had to move your army up for a couple of minutes before the action started, but ti does limit space and time for tactics. I see the claims of battles being too fast and too costly concerning the casualties.

    I think the AI and the HE fared well. Micro was on point, as always. I though leadership on the melee HE units was a bit on the low side, but since we did not see the morale bars it is alright. The Dragon did alright as well, better than I would have expected by the use of the RoR Icedrake.
    Witch Elves seemed a bit weak, both from stats as from performance, but I could totally be mistaken, and when the map-wide buff kicks in you can really see how they suddenly perform better.
    Dark Riders however are a disappointment. I think they hold their ground rather well, as they seem to lose models slower against archers, but in melee they are underperforming, I can not recall if they routed one archer unit at all. This could be part of the power creep, as units generally seemed beefier than in game 1. Dark Riders would likely perform better against Empire Crossbows or Peasant archers. I still see the need of good light melee cavalry or good hybrid cavalry.
  • KatarianKatarian Registered Users Posts: 246
    Seldkam said:

    Katarian said:

    Seldkam said:

    *Facepalm* those dark riders were the melee variant, they had shields not the xbow variant. It took at least 30 seconds for 2 of them to kill 1 he maybe lightly armored Archer unit.

    Dat Martial Prowess tho.

    They were shot by four units of Archers/Sea Guard and one of Ellyrian Reavers even before getting into combat. Once in melee combat they were constantly being shot by multiple other units some of them from the side or rear. Any light cavalry unit is going to melt under those conditions, even so the first Archer unit broke fairly quickly due to the charge and the other one wasn't charged properly. Darren then pulled the Dark Riders out of that combat and ended up charging a unit of Sea Guard. Under those circumstances they actually performed fairly well.
    They had literally 1 other unit of archers firing from what I remember... Lemme check yea it wasn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
    What fight are you watching? Literally at 4:47 one archer unit and the Ellyrian Reavers are shooting at them, 4:50 two more archer units start shooting at them, and at 4:55 a unit of Sea Guard start shooting at them as well. The first unit of Dark Riders has lost maybe 1/3 of it's health and 10 models the second maybe 10% of its health before they even get into combat.

    At 5:21 melee combat is joined with one archer unit and one dark rider unit has lost half it's health and 13 models the other maybe 20% of it's health, at that point they are only being fired upon by the Reavers and a unit of archers but that unit of archers is flanking them.

    At 5:45 the first archer unit is wavering and we get to see a tooltip showing at least one unit is actually the upgraded archers with light armour. Both Dark Riders are below half health and have lost 18 and 9 models. 5:50 the first unit of archers break 20 seconds after being charged, and for the first time since the Dark Riders left the wood they were hidden in it looks like no one is shooting them. 5:57 the Reavers start shooting them again.

    At 6:15 Darren says the cavalry is freed up when it is still in combat with the second archer unit that wasn't charged properly and moves them out of combat. One unit is at maybe 1/4 health the other at just below 1/2 health. They are now being shot in the rear by the Reavers. The next time we see them is at 6:50 they are in combat with a unit of Lothern Sea Guard being shot in the rear by Reavers. 7:12 the Reavers stop shooting them but they are still in combat with the Sea Guard. Both units are badly mauled with 15 and 19 models left with very low health. 7:14 an archer unit shoots them from the rear this is the last time we see them get shot. They were being shot almost constantly by various different units for approximately 2 minutes.

    At 7:41 they have left combat with the Sea Guard and are engaging some spearmen that have rallied. They only have 10 and 12 models left in the units and one starts wavering at 7:46. 8:01 is the next time we see them in melee with a unit of archers, one is already wavering and breaks at 8:06, the other starts wavering at 8:16 and breaks at 8:26.

    Well that was a lot longer then I had intended to type, but as I said they actually did okay given how badly they were used. We only saw them manage one proper charge, we don't get see if the charged the Sea Guard or vice versa, and from their stats Charge Bonus is one of their main strengths. Once they get bogged down in combat with the second archer unit they failed to charge properly and are being shot by multiple other units things go south rather quickly. Some proper cycle charging and better choices of targets might have made a world of difference.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,420
    edited August 2017
    Geldor said:

    It's one of the colors usecby Games Workshop in the more recent army books for Moon Dragons. If you look at page 4 of this thread, there is a more detailed explanation.

    If it's supposed to be yellow, hoping CA it darker rather than bright yellow... It's too much striking...
    Better black and yellow atleast...






  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,897
    edited August 2017
    jamreal18 said:

    Geldor said:

    It's one of the colors usecby Games Workshop in the more recent army books for Moon Dragons. If you look at page 4 of this thread, there is a more detailed explanation.

    If it's supposed to be yellow, hoping CA it darker rather than bright yellow... It's too much striking...
    Better black and yellow atleast...






    You know you can change their colours with mods, right?

    People weren't even sure if the sun, moon and star dragons would be different colours. Now that they are, they picked the wrong ones... geez

    What really matters is how powerful the dragons are, how much damage does their breath attack do and will they be cost-effective in MP.
  • cat59cat59 Registered Users Posts: 472
    People, the DA army in that battle lost one entire unit, due to routing or all dying, I don't know, but there are 9 other units that might get disbanded when it goes back to campaign map, due to low numbers. Not to mention every unit that wasn't a single unit entity/artillery piece had less than 50% health, I'd go so far as to say around 25% health at the time of victory. Both the micromanagement in the battle was bad (For cinematic appeal, I assume) and the DE units with Murderous Mastery got fear whenever it activated, unless they changed that bit too.

    The dragon charged into the Hydra and Malekith, with two Reaper Bolt Throwers shooting at it with their anti-large missiles activated, with one or two other units running up to attack it as well. Do people truly expect anything to survive such an overwhelming onslaught, let alone come out on top? Hydra has much larger than normal regen, or should, at least, and Malekith has spells to recover health from damaging enemies, though it wasn't shown/used this battle.

    I'm more worried about the Witch Elves costing 700 gold to recruit, having ~150 upkeep, take 2 turns to recruit, and only having 2 more MA than Corsairs, which are cheaper to recruit/maintain, only take 1 turn to recruit, but have better armor and MD. Yes, Corsairs had less of a charge bonus and slightly less leadership as well in that battle, but they also had 80 armor, which means they'd be getting into enemy lines easier/more healthy than the 10 armor WE, who only have an advantage of 6 more speed.

    Just noticed regular Shades cost 1200, while the version that are better in melee (Dual Swords) cost 1100.
  • AnotonyAnotony Registered Users Posts: 175
    I'm curious about the Black Ark bombardment support, is that in the lore?
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,025
    HoneyBun said:

    What most struck me was the deployment territory.

    The ATTACKERS in a SEIGE go two useful hills and some handy trees for hiding in.

    The DEFENDERS got a flat plain upon which to be shot at.

    Did none of the HE think "hmmm, what a bad place to build a settlement"?

    Just as well terrain advantages don't really count for much in this game :grimace:
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,025
    Loads to like in this vid... the map is looking lush - full of character and detail. Unit design is amazing. Some of the model animations are incredible - particularly that giant eagle swooping and barrel rolling all over the place; it captures the movements of a bird of prey beautifully.

    I'm just never going to be able to get behind battle gameplay in this game. Regardless of all protestations about high damage, low HP glass cannons etc, there's just way too much going on in the measly time allotted. I still don't see much challenge beyond reacting quickly, finding the right counter for enemy units and timing your spells/abilities well. But really it's just about doing all these things as quickly as is humanly possible.

    Full marks for visuals, though. Quite a spectacle.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,784
    HoneyBun said:

    What most struck me was the deployment territory.

    The ATTACKERS in a SEIGE go two useful hills and some handy trees for hiding in.

    The DEFENDERS got a flat plain upon which to be shot at.

    Did none of the HE think "hmmm, what a bad place to build a settlement"?

    Better than the flat ground for TW:W1. At least it allows for some variation in tactics.
    81jt2dj75iky.png


  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,025



    Better than the flat ground for TW:W1. At least it allows for some variation in tactics.

    In theory, yes. But from where I was sitting, it played out much like a standard field battle would, except for the DE ballistae camped on a hill.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,539
    The issue is that in a properly-designed strategy game, if you know what you are doing then you are aiming to win before the battle even happens. What that means is that having observed the enemy and the terrain, you know what tactic will work best and whether it is worth trying to win or choosing to lose but with minimum loss: yes, losing should be a viable decision most of the time in a field battle.

    Recent Total War games and Warhammer especially have abandoned Sun Tzu. Even in Starcraft 2, if your reactions and twitch-ability is not good, if you follow 'a build' and a practised strat closely then you will win most of the time even against someone who has practised micro-management: the macro will be king. This is why 'timing-based' strategies are so effective; you know what you are doing and when, regardless of what the opponent is doing because the strategy has been developed around what even the best player can and can not have at a certain point in the match. This is why the fast-paced action-RTS often has matches lasting more than 20 minutes and Warhammer is stuck at less than half that no matter how many units you actually field at once.

    Warhammer is all-reaction, all of the time. It's a shame because in so many other ways it is an improvement on other TWs, but getting battles right is crucial and they seem to be getting worse.
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,025
    Quick shout-out to that Witch Elf at 2:59 who throws herself right into the action :astonished:

    @HoneyBun , funny that you think it a "childish obsession" to not pause the game, though I know you have a penchant for hyperbole ;)

    Analogies to other media are never perfect, but when I'm watching a piece of film or TV that is more than usually taxing, I never reach for the pause button for a brief period of chin-stroking. I respect directors who give their audience a bit of mental space to appreciate what they're trying to communicate.

    It's nice to be able to appreciate what's in front of you while remaining "in the moment", basically. And pause-playing doesn't allow for that imho. I don't refuse to pause out of some childish sense that it will compromise my l33t credentials. It's very much a personal preference, which is why I've never denigrated people who do prefer to pause.

    Besides, I've never advocated a "my way or the highway" approach. There are clearly large groups of people who feel differently on this issue, so it's really in the interests of the devs cater for those. The only DLC I bought for Game 1 was blood and gore and a lord pack. If I'd actually enjoyed fighting battles, I may have bought quite a bit more. I'm hardly alone in that!
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,025
    Always good to hear @ArecBalrin 's perspective in these discussions. Fundamentally, it's the underlying design of battle mechanics which is most at fault, not whether or not a player chooses to pause in the heat of the action.
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