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Dismount, please.

ItharusItharus Senior MemberPosts: 6,825Registered Users
Brettonia is desperately, desperately in need of the option to dismount their knights in battle as was possible in nearly all previous TW titles.

Sieges nearly always end in a waiting game and an auto resolve for me as Brettonia because 1/2 to 2/3 of my army doesn't know how to dismount their horse. That's insane. The Brettonian infantry are very poor and will break consistently when trying to take walls... which means you have to take a great deal of them -- far more than is reasonable; and this brings drastic income penalties.

Also... as an aside... why are Squires a peasant unit? A squire is a knight-in-training; pretty much always a noble or aristocrat. They are NOT peasants. If foot squires didn't count as peasants that might alieviate the need to dismount the knights somewhat.

But yeah... dismount would be very welcome.
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Comments

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    It will get backlash by a handful of tabletop purists. Bretonnia knights literally cannot get off their horses as far as they will have it, essentially making them infantry in the siege battle, which is our point. But they'll say bretonnia should not have elite infantry.

    Well I don't care, they are Knights, and Knights are able to get off their horses and fight as a unit.
    But who am I kidding. It's probably too much work to do dismount. You know how it goes.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,560Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    I agree. In walled cities and settlements Cavalry units not being able to dismount is a waste of available manpower, whether a garrison force and/or garrison army. Same problem exists in the historical games also.

    It is a pet peeve of mine.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • DracoknightDracoknight Posts: 281Registered Users
    I played the Tabletop and it still kinda annoys me that that is not a option in that either. HOWEVER there was a mechanic in tabletop that allowed mounted units to DISMOUNT in order to attack garrisoned buildings, though they could not occupy the structures themselves they left their mounts to slaughter and then got back on their horse.

    So it would be great if that was a option to let cavalery dismount at cost of speed, armor and whatever special abilities granted by the mount. The whole "bretonia dont have elite infantry" is just a pile of bull, and you still pay for the horses and they lose their advantage being on the ground anyway. So you just paid 1200 for questing knights where their entire benefit over foot squires is that they are mounted.

    Same for Chaos Knights, you pay 1300 for a unit that is half the size of a chosen unit and none of the benefits.

    So i would say that dismounting should be a option in general as the benefit here is at best situational, like dismounting to fight anti-large units or sieging.
  • AndkatAndkat Posts: 257Registered Users
    edited September 2017
    Bretonnian knights could either have the option disabled or take either massive leadership (they are scandalized by the disgrace of such an order) penalties or massive melee attack penalties (they'll stand their ground, but refuse to actually fight) for doing so.

    The removal of dismount as a mechanic is one of the dumbest things in this game; why strip away functional, useful, immersive features already present in the engine?
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,825Registered Users
    There's no reason to do anything to them for dismounting that doesn't already happen with the removal of the mount. Size, mass, impact, charge bonus, speed, etc... all of that gets reduced.

    Just like it has been in every other TW game, really. Although the cavalry unit size has been hurting it since Rome 2.
  • AndkatAndkat Posts: 257Registered Users
    edited September 2017
    Bretonnian knights specifically are notorious for their devotion to fighting on horseback, to the point where only those who have taken the rare Vow of Empahty are willing to take to foot ignominiously alongside the peasants as a deliberate means of warfare (and unhorsed troops fighting on isn't a feature of this game engine anyway, sadly); this is a qualitative difference from Empire Knightly Orders and should be mechanically represented. Ideally Bretonnia should have the best actual heavy cavalry for cost, but at the expense of lacking the flexibility of being able to usefully dismount them (then again, they also shouldn't have goddamned Foot Squires either- powerful and impressively cost-efficient cavalry and garbage infantry lines should be the name of the game- even Bretonnian squires are supposed to fight on horseback).
    Post edited by Andkat on
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,309Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Brettonia is desperately, desperately in need of the option to dismount their knights in battle as was possible in nearly all previous TW titles.

    Sieges nearly always end in a waiting game and an auto resolve for me as Brettonia because 1/2 to 2/3 of my army doesn't know how to dismount their horse. That's insane. The Brettonian infantry are very poor and will break consistently when trying to take walls... which means you have to take a great deal of them -- far more than is reasonable; and this brings drastic income penalties.

    Also... as an aside... why are Squires a peasant unit? A squire is a knight-in-training; pretty much always a noble or aristocrat. They are NOT peasants. If foot squires didn't count as peasants that might alieviate the need to dismount the knights somewhat.

    But yeah... dismount would be very welcome.

    That's a poor reason to demand a dismount option. Bretonnian infantry actually isn't as bad as you make it out to be, Battle Pilgrims and support by a nearby Grail Reliquiae make them more than formidable enough to capture and take walls. Plus you have some of the most cost-effective skirmishers.

    Dismounting would also simply serve to remove all character from the Bretonnians as well. Against it.

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,825Registered Users
    I don't recall ever seeing that Brettonian knights refuse to fight on foot. Got a source for that?

    Regardless, in TW WH, lords and paladins start out fighting on foot. So in the scope of this game that reasoning doesn't work.

    Also, I don't think dismounting removes character at all. Knights frequently dismounted and fought on foot. Hell, horses died quite a lot and it was often forced upon them. Storming a castle? Odds are good you aren't doing it on a horse.

    Besides, you're not forced to dismount your units. It would be an option... like in basically every total war game ever made.
  • SchusselSchussel Posts: 740Registered Users
    Well...

    I don't care for the "Bretonians don't fight on foot" but if you add Dismount you need to add it for all Factions Cavalry not only to Bretonians.

    And now I got a Problem or at least I see a Problem
    Useing Cavalry wouldn't have any tradeoff anymore.

    Your enemy has a lot of Spearmen you just dismount cutt through them and Mount again if necessary in the Next fight.
    Even when dismounting reduces Armor, HP, Speed and Chargebonus they will still be stronger as all Spearmen and most Hellbardiers... and if not the people will complain that dismounting makes them to weak and they need to get buffed.


    No, each Faction has advantages and disadvantages,
    e.g. Undead/Woodelves no War Machines, Dwarves no Cavalry etc.
    and for Bretonia it is the recruitment of Infantry.

    But every Faction also got a way to cope with their disadvantage.






  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,825Registered Users
    Schussel said:

    Well...

    I don't care for the "Bretonians don't fight on foot" but if you add Dismount you need to add it for all Factions Cavalry not only to Bretonians.

    Absolutely. That's what I'd like to see. I was just commenting that it's espectially egregious for Brettonia. I have a tendency to come and make suggestions, rants, raves, discussions, pleas for help, etc when I am mid-campaign. I happened to be on Brettonia when I wrote this.

    It's just damned silly not being able to dismount your troops given that it's been possible since Medieval 1 if not Shogun 1.

  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,797Registered Users
    Itharus said:


    It's just damned silly not being able to dismount your troops given that it's been possible since Medieval 1 if not Shogun 1.

    ahm... dismounting iirc first appeared in Empire with the Dragoons... in Med II for example there only had been, for example, "Gothic Knights" and "Dismounted Gothic Knights", "Feudal Knights" and "Dismounted Feudal Knights" everytime as seperate units.

    The first (modern) TW that allowed you to dismount all cav units had been Shogun II
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,309Registered Users
    edited September 2017
    Itharus said:

    I don't recall ever seeing that Brettonian knights refuse to fight on foot. Got a source for that?

    Got any source on dismounted knights? You want them, so you cough up the evidence. From at least 4th edition on there were only dismounted lords and heroes (due to "virtue of empathy"), but no knights for Bretonnia.

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,825Registered Users
    I'm talking about reality. This is a Total War game... not a pure WH game. The way the mechanics of TW work a dismount option is needed. If this were a pure recreation of TT it wouldn't be.

    @TheGuardianOfMetal -- you know I think you might be right, actually. But honestly? I'd even happily recruit dismounted knights errant or something. Also, even if it did come out in Empire, removing the dismounting in battle is still a big step backwards.
  • Glandyth_a_KraeGlandyth_a_Krae Posts: 81Registered Users
    To be fair dismounting knights doesn't really make sense: a late medieval knight in full armour couldn't even get on his horse by himself; armour were way too heavy for that. So let's not talk about climbing walls.

    Make foot squires a non peasant unit and you don't see a single peasant in campaign anymore, even though it would indeed be logical.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,825Registered Users
    Every ranged unit they've got is a peasant.

    Also... where are you getting your idea about the armor being too heavy? Well fitted plate hangs well. Even then it's probably not more than 60 or 70 pounds. Modern infantry in full battledress with pack carry that much.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users



    These historical illustrations suggests heavily armored soldiers climbing ladders.
  • DracoknightDracoknight Posts: 281Registered Users
    The clumsiness of heavy armore have been heavily overrated over the times, considering that multiply sources have already proved that you can be quite agile while in full plate.

    Still i would claim that a reference to IRL historical battles are not really valid in Total warhammer due to that its a own setting with its own history, and i cant recall anything in the bretonian lore to be a major offence to dismount. If anything dismounting to gain a advantage and storm walls and the like is exactly what the crusaders and knights of bretonia would do.

    I would like to see the option to dismount be across all factions, and the penalties to do such is loss of mass, mount abilities and speed. Especially in the case of Lords that have on-foot variant would gain the stats of the foot variant while dismounted, and such should be the case for everything else.

    However, if you have a dismount it should be a option for flying units to land. And the penalties for flying units for landing is already pretty obvious when the WH2 changes to flying comes around, which means that taking to the air again would be affected by the forced grounding mechanic reworked in WH2.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,825Registered Users
    At least you can dismount lords and heroes (pre battle, once a turn)... :-/
  • BierTempelierBierTempelier Posts: 198Registered Users

    I'm in favour for 'dismount' option for all factions. BUT maybe not for heavy cav. They need their mounts to be carried around and would be useless as infantry.

    Particularly in siege situations, AI has proven not to be able to cope with cavalry inside city walls.


  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,797Registered Users
    edited September 2017


    I'm in favour for 'dismount' option for all factions. BUT maybe not for heavy cav. They need their mounts to be carried around and would be useless as infantry.

    In what world?

    that makes no sense and even is rather unrealistic
    Post edited by TheGuardianOfMetal on
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,825Registered Users
    How does this myth about plate armor being massively unwieldy keep getting perpetuated?
  • BierTempelierBierTempelier Posts: 198Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    How does this myth about plate armor being massively unwieldy keep getting perpetuated?

    History...

  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,797Registered Users
    edited September 2017



    Itharus said:

    How does this myth about plate armor being massively unwieldy keep getting perpetuated?

    History...

    ahahahaha

    hereby I declare you shall be ended rightly!





    Post edited by TheGuardianOfMetal on
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • DracoknightDracoknight Posts: 281Registered Users



    Itharus said:

    How does this myth about plate armor being massively unwieldy keep getting perpetuated?

    History...

    Fiction getting history wrong you mean?
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    No one would make great lengths to invest in heavy armor if it were so drastically a burden.
  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Posts: 827Registered Users
    I miss dismount. It's weird they removed a feature that has always been so useful. Cavalry in sieges is now just a hinderance most of the time.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,825Registered Users
    LOL, thanks for those videos, Metal :)
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,330Registered Users
    edited September 2017
    I'm fine with other factions getting it and not the Knights in Bretonnia since their weakness is meant to be their Infantry and letting Knights dismount covers that way more then Foot Squires did on release.

    Squires have always been Peasents. The Squires as we know them for Nobles is Knights Errant.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,517Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    At least you can dismount lords and heroes (pre battle, once a turn)... :-/

    Getting an mount should cast gold instead of skill points, then the Lords would be more flexible.

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