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Lore Question: Malekith and the Prophecy of Demise

JellyphasJellyphas Posts: 43Registered Users
edited August 2017 in General Discussion
So according to the lore, Malekith was prophesied to be killed by a sorcerer. So because of that, he has forbidden male dark elves to become sorcerers in order to avert the prophecy under pain of death/forced to become Doomfire Warlocks.

Because the prophecy wasn't fulfilled after the End Times, is the prophecy fake, misinterpreted, forgotten or is it still likely to happen in Age of Sigmar, since Malek----I mean, Malerion is still alive and kicking.
Post edited by Jellyphas on

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  • BereaverBereaver Posts: 468Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    Jellyphas said:

    So according to the lore, Malekith was prophesied to be killed by a sorcerer. So because of that, he has forbidden male dark elves to become sorcerers in order to avert the prophecy under pain of death/forced to become Doomfire Warlocks.

    Because the prophecy wasn't fulfilled after the End Times, is the prophecy fake, misinterpreted or is it still likely to happen in Age of Sigmar, since Malek----I mean, Malerion is still alive and kicking.

    I think that End Times have not been accounted for by elven prophecies of any kind. Chaos in the end trumped every mysctial being on Mallus, so i think that prophecy can be considered null and void. Also, Malerion is kinda not Malekith now.

    UPD: Oh and i actually remember it. Malekith has died at the end of the world! He rushed to push Alarielle out of getting hit by some falling rubble during the Ritual of Incarnates. It instead crushed his legs, and he was rendered helpless during destruction of the world. He was destroyed along with other Incarnates, i think that counts. They just got reborn by Winds of Magic later on. Last thing he saw is his wifie Allrielle holding hands with her lover Tyrion. Soo, she kinda slayed him AND his heart!
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Posts: 4,571Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    Jellyphas said:

    So according to the lore, Malekith was prophesied to be killed by a sorcerer. So because of that, he has forbidden male dark elves to become sorcerers in order to avert the prophecy under pain of death/forced to become Doomfire Warlocks.

    Because the prophecy wasn't fulfilled after the End Times, is the prophecy fake, misinterpreted or is it still likely to happen in Age of Sigmar, since Malek----I mean, Malerion is still alive and kicking.

    First of all - doomfire warlocks are an absolute travesty created by Matt Ward which makes no sense and were **** broken on the tabletop. I am really really happy CA did for now not include them in the roster. They didnt even look good. They look absolutely goofy. Not that "doomfire warlock" sounds badass but still...

    \Rant Mode of

    Yes indeed the prophecy is wrong and right at the same time depending how you look at it.
    Since there are no dark elves per se in AoS no dark elve sorcere will ever kill Malekith. In that regard the prophecy was false. Something the end times writers didnt remember or ignored.

    If you want to do a stretch though then Malekith overcame the prophecy by getting help from Chaos.
    When Teclis (a sorcerer!) was about to kill Malekith with a magic missile Malekith only escaped death by fleeing to the realm of Chaos in a way avoiding the certain death waiting for him.
    This wasnt even retconned in modern lore it was just changed from Malekith being allied to Chaos to Malekith simply fleeing to the realm of chaos and then escaping with the help of Morathi if I remember correctly.
  • IzzyStradlinIzzyStradlin Senior Member Karaz BrynPosts: 11,057Registered Users
    I was told by a very insistent source that the Prophecy of Demise does not actually refer to Malekith.

    And indeed, I can't quite find any pre-End Times source that says Malekith knew it was about him. He merely thought that it might have been.
    "Raise them, Necromancer. Set brother against brother. Let's give our hosts something worthy of recording in their pathetic book of complaints, shall we?"
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  • ArsenicArsenic Posts: 4,780Registered Users
    That was written when they had no plans on pulling the plug on the franchise. Think we're meant to file that away with "The Storm of Chaos".
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • NemoxNemox Posts: 2,708Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    seienchin said:

    Jellyphas said:

    So according to the lore, Malekith was prophesied to be killed by a sorcerer. So because of that, he has forbidden male dark elves to become sorcerers in order to avert the prophecy under pain of death/forced to become Doomfire Warlocks.

    Because the prophecy wasn't fulfilled after the End Times, is the prophecy fake, misinterpreted or is it still likely to happen in Age of Sigmar, since Malek----I mean, Malerion is still alive and kicking.

    First of all - doomfire warlocks are an absolute travesty created by Matt Ward which makes no sense and were **** broken on the tabletop. I am really really happy CA did for now not include them in the roster. They didnt even look good. They look absolutely goofy. Not that "doomfire warlock" sounds badass but still...

    \Rant Mode of

    Yes indeed the prophecy is wrong and right at the same time depending how you look at it.
    Since there are no dark elves per se in AoS no dark elve sorcere will ever kill Malekith. In that regard the prophecy was false. Something the end times writers didnt remember or ignored.

    If you want to do a stretch though then Malekith overcame the prophecy by getting help from Chaos.
    When Teclis (a sorcerer!) was about to kill Malekith with a magic missile Malekith only escaped death by fleeing to the realm of Chaos in a way avoiding the certain death waiting for him.
    This wasnt even retconned in modern lore it was just changed from Malekith being allied to Chaos to Malekith simply fleeing to the realm of chaos and then escaping with the help of Morathi if I remember correctly.
    Morathi is still completely unaware of what transpired in the Realm of Chaos. We learnt, atleast in 8E, that Malekith battled N'kari at the Marcher fortress, barely survived and stole its horn (Which it came to collect during Atharti's night in Naggarond).

    He fled to the realm of Chaos because Teclis invoked Lileath's power and the curse re-ignited Asuryans fire and it was the only way to survive.

    Also you are all forgetting the full prophecy:

    "And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch upon every land. Steel will be his skin and fire will be his blood, in hatred will he conquer all before him. No blade forged of Man, Dwarf or Elf shall endure him fear. Though will it come to pass that the firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts. Thus will the Dark King fall, slain by neither blade nor arrow but by a sorcerous power of darkest magic and so shall his body be consumed in the flames and for all eternity burn."

    Caledor dragontamer had that only after Aenarion pulled Widowmaker out. I don't think Teclis counts, atleast, not at Finuval Plains since there was no dark magic involved.
  • UrgatUrgat Posts: 994Registered Users
    Jellyphas said:


    First of all - doomfire warlocks are an absolute travesty created by Matt Ward which makes no sense and were **** broken on the tabletop. I am really really happy CA did for now not include them in the roster. They didnt even look good. They look absolutely goofy. Not that "doomfire warlock" sounds badass but still...

    I like their fluff actually, it shows that Malekith isn't just all bark no bite.
    As for the prophecy, I just like to think that for once, the steps the bad guy took to break it actually worked.

  • cat59cat59 Posts: 465Registered Users
    Nemox said:

    seienchin said:

    Jellyphas said:

    So according to the lore, Malekith was prophesied to be killed by a sorcerer. So because of that, he has forbidden male dark elves to become sorcerers in order to avert the prophecy under pain of death/forced to become Doomfire Warlocks.

    Because the prophecy wasn't fulfilled after the End Times, is the prophecy fake, misinterpreted or is it still likely to happen in Age of Sigmar, since Malek----I mean, Malerion is still alive and kicking.

    First of all - doomfire warlocks are an absolute travesty created by Matt Ward which makes no sense and were **** broken on the tabletop. I am really really happy CA did for now not include them in the roster. They didnt even look good. They look absolutely goofy. Not that "doomfire warlock" sounds badass but still...

    \Rant Mode of

    Yes indeed the prophecy is wrong and right at the same time depending how you look at it.
    Since there are no dark elves per se in AoS no dark elve sorcere will ever kill Malekith. In that regard the prophecy was false. Something the end times writers didnt remember or ignored.

    If you want to do a stretch though then Malekith overcame the prophecy by getting help from Chaos.
    When Teclis (a sorcerer!) was about to kill Malekith with a magic missile Malekith only escaped death by fleeing to the realm of Chaos in a way avoiding the certain death waiting for him.
    This wasnt even retconned in modern lore it was just changed from Malekith being allied to Chaos to Malekith simply fleeing to the realm of chaos and then escaping with the help of Morathi if I remember correctly.
    Morathi is still completely unaware of what transpired in the Realm of Chaos. We learnt, atleast in 8E, that Malekith battled N'kari at the Marcher fortress, barely survived and stole its horn (Which it came to collect during Atharti's night in Naggarond).

    He fled to the realm of Chaos because Teclis invoked Lileath's power and the curse re-ignited Asuryans fire and it was the only way to survive.

    Also you are all forgetting the full prophecy:

    "And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch upon every land. Steel will be his skin and fire will be his blood, in hatred will he conquer all before him. No blade forged of Man, Dwarf or Elf shall endure him fear. Though will it come to pass that the firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts. Thus will the Dark King fall, slain by neither blade nor arrow but by a sorcerous power of darkest magic and so shall his body be consumed in the flames and for all eternity burn."

    Caledor dragontamer had that only after Aenarion pulled Widowmaker out. I don't think Teclis counts, atleast, not at Finuval Plains since there was no dark magic involved.
    So, it doesn't state Malekith specifically. It even says the Firstborn son. If I'm remembering correctly, Aenarion had two children before Malekith, so he would be the third, not the first, regardless.

    Could possibly even be Nagash, though the part of Steel skin and fiery blood makes it more difficult.
  • NemoxNemox Posts: 2,708Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    cat59 said:

    Nemox said:

    seienchin said:

    Jellyphas said:

    So according to the lore, Malekith was prophesied to be killed by a sorcerer. So because of that, he has forbidden male dark elves to become sorcerers in order to avert the prophecy under pain of death/forced to become Doomfire Warlocks.

    Because the prophecy wasn't fulfilled after the End Times, is the prophecy fake, misinterpreted or is it still likely to happen in Age of Sigmar, since Malek----I mean, Malerion is still alive and kicking.

    First of all - doomfire warlocks are an absolute travesty created by Matt Ward which makes no sense and were **** broken on the tabletop. I am really really happy CA did for now not include them in the roster. They didnt even look good. They look absolutely goofy. Not that "doomfire warlock" sounds badass but still...

    \Rant Mode of

    Yes indeed the prophecy is wrong and right at the same time depending how you look at it.
    Since there are no dark elves per se in AoS no dark elve sorcere will ever kill Malekith. In that regard the prophecy was false. Something the end times writers didnt remember or ignored.

    If you want to do a stretch though then Malekith overcame the prophecy by getting help from Chaos.
    When Teclis (a sorcerer!) was about to kill Malekith with a magic missile Malekith only escaped death by fleeing to the realm of Chaos in a way avoiding the certain death waiting for him.
    This wasnt even retconned in modern lore it was just changed from Malekith being allied to Chaos to Malekith simply fleeing to the realm of chaos and then escaping with the help of Morathi if I remember correctly.
    Morathi is still completely unaware of what transpired in the Realm of Chaos. We learnt, atleast in 8E, that Malekith battled N'kari at the Marcher fortress, barely survived and stole its horn (Which it came to collect during Atharti's night in Naggarond).

    He fled to the realm of Chaos because Teclis invoked Lileath's power and the curse re-ignited Asuryans fire and it was the only way to survive.

    Also you are all forgetting the full prophecy:

    "And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch upon every land. Steel will be his skin and fire will be his blood, in hatred will he conquer all before him. No blade forged of Man, Dwarf or Elf shall endure him fear. Though will it come to pass that the firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts. Thus will the Dark King fall, slain by neither blade nor arrow but by a sorcerous power of darkest magic and so shall his body be consumed in the flames and for all eternity burn."

    Caledor dragontamer had that only after Aenarion pulled Widowmaker out. I don't think Teclis counts, atleast, not at Finuval Plains since there was no dark magic involved.
    So, it doesn't state Malekith specifically. It even says the Firstborn son. If I'm remembering correctly, Aenarion had two children before Malekith, so he would be the third, not the first, regardless.

    Could possibly even be Nagash, though the part of Steel skin and fiery blood makes it more difficult.
    The prophecy is specifically about the fall of the Elves - or atleast, that is what Caledor believed it to be. Considering that the moment Widowmaker was drawn, the entire elven race felt a change, he definitely had good reason to think that.

    Whilst Nagash is a strong contender, it seems odd that he would be a part of a prophecy that heavily involved Khaine and Asuryan. It is possible, since he ticks a lot of the boxes (his armour fused to his body, firstborn of a noble house etc).

    Still, if Malekith is the Dark King in the prophecy, then it is the sorcerer who will be the firstborn son raised in the dark arts. Also with an army of terrible beasts...

    I think GW just didn't want to deal with the prophecy and assumed everyone would make the excuses for them :P. It happens a lot in other fictions.



  • DrasanilDrasanil Posts: 392Registered Users
    The prophecy was introduced in 6th edition to justify the fact they didn't make a male sorcerer model for the dark elves during their big model line revamp, when their used to be some in prior editions. I don't think it was ever meant to be taken all that seriously, especially since the 6th edition dark elf narrator in their army book was a male sorcerer, all be it one that was born pre-sundering so probably wouldn't qualify prophecy wise any ways.
  • NemoxNemox Posts: 2,708Registered Users
    Drasanil said:

    The prophecy was introduced in 6th edition to justify the fact they didn't make a male sorcerer model for the dark elves during their big model line revamp, when their used to be some in prior editions. I don't think it was ever meant to be taken all that seriously, especially since the 6th edition dark elf narrator in their army book was a male sorcerer, all be it one that was born pre-sundering so probably wouldn't qualify prophecy wise any ways.

    They did expand on it in 7E however, and kept it relevant in 8E. However, GW contradicting/forgetting existing lore almost in the same paragraph should surprise no one.
  • BereaverBereaver Posts: 468Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    Nemox said:

    They did expand on it in 7E however, and kept it relevant in 8E. However, GW contradicting/forgetting existing lore almost in the same paragraph should surprise no one.

    There is no plothole with unfulfilled prophecy though. This is the nature of prophecy - while mystic and dark, not every prophecy comes to be. That was the whole point of Malekith's "no male sorcerers" policy - to prevent the said prophecy. And he succeded! Problem is that he succeded because the world has ended before he could die at the hands of the sorcerer. But that kinda counts.

  • NemoxNemox Posts: 2,708Registered Users
    Bereaver said:

    Nemox said:

    They did expand on it in 7E however, and kept it relevant in 8E. However, GW contradicting/forgetting existing lore almost in the same paragraph should surprise no one.

    There is no plothole with unfulfilled prophecy though. This is the nature of prophecy - while mystic and dark, not every prophecy comes to be. That was the whole point of Malekith's "no male sorceres" policy - to prevent the said prophecy. And he succeded cause the world ended before his death at the hands of the sorcerer!

    Usually pro-actively trying to prevent a prophecy makes it happen. Self-fulfilling prophecy and all :P. The prophecy was also about the demise of the Elves in general. There are still DE male sorcerers, and not once did it even address or acknowledge the prophecy - not even a "Good job, you avoided it!"

    It is far more likely that because GW had rushed End Times (They did have a fair few reasons for doing that) they found it far easier to avoid adding that complication - or forced end to Malekith - especially since they wanted to redeem Malekith somewhat.
  • SaitohSaitoh Posts: 261Registered Users
    You could make the argument that nowhere in the prophecy does it say the male sorceror is an elf. "The firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts" perfectly describes Mannfred who directly causes Malekith's death at the end of the world.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users
    The prophecy of demise. This is why Malekith fears as hell Teclis
  • GalenHHHGalenHHH Junior Member Posts: 1,233Registered Users
    Saitoh said:

    You could make the argument that nowhere in the prophecy does it say the male sorceror is an elf. "The firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts" perfectly describes Mannfred who directly causes Malekith's death at the end of the world.

    Does he count as Vlads firstborn?I mean the dark magic part and beasts stuff seem to fit .But does being made a vampire count?
  • NemoxNemox Posts: 2,708Registered Users
    edited August 2017

    The prophecy of demise. This is why Malekith fears as hell Teclis

    He fears Teclis after he finds out how powerful he is. Other then that, Teclis doesn't really fit the prophecy. He is of a noble house, but he was born as a twin with Tyrion. Wasn't raised to learn the darkest arts and has yet to raise an army of terrible beasts.

    Nagash was a strong contender, and probably the most popular theory people have. Of course, the prophecy of demise doesn't necessarily have to be pointed at Malekith - he just assumed it was due to the circumstances of the prophecy and its heavy involvement of Khaine/Asuryan/Aenarion etc.

    Mannfred could work, though he more indirectly involved their deaths since he killed Gelt, and the consequences of that killed everyone else, including himself (Before going insane). As for firstborn part, didn't Vashanesh turn other people before he became Vlad? Genuinely cannot remember.
  • blaatblaat Junior Member Posts: 3,082Registered Users
    Nemox said:

    The prophecy of demise. This is why Malekith fears as hell Teclis

    He fears Teclis after he finds out how powerful he is. Other then that, Teclis doesn't really fit the prophecy. He is of a noble house, but he was born as a twin with Tyrion. Wasn't raised to learn the darkest arts and has yet to raise an army of terrible beasts.

    Nagash was a strong contender, and probably the most popular theory people have. Of course, the prophecy of demise doesn't necessarily have to be pointed at Malekith - he just assumed it was due to the circumstances of the prophecy and its heavy involvement of Khaine/Asuryan/Aenarion etc.

    Mannfred could work, though he more indirectly involved their deaths since he killed Gelt, and the consequences of that killed everyone else, including himself (Before going insane). As for firstborn part, didn't Vashanesh turn other people before he became Vlad? Genuinely cannot remember.
    AFAIK no but take that with a pinch of salt

    snip

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  • HexiHexi Posts: 1,096Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    Jellyphas said:

    So according to the lore, Malekith was prophesied to be killed by a sorcerer. So because of that, he has forbidden male dark elves to become sorcerers in order to avert the prophecy under pain of death/forced to become Doomfire Warlocks.

    Because the prophecy wasn't fulfilled after the End Times, is the prophecy fake, misinterpreted, forgotten or is it still likely to happen in Age of Sigmar, since Malek----I mean, Malerion is still alive and kicking.

    You think GW remembers their own lore? lol?

    The only reason that was put in, was to sell half-naked Sorceress models.
    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt
  • ValeliValeli Senior Member Posts: 1,940Registered Users
    The end times is, literally, just a forced process to transition between two /different/ games.

    They did all sorts of weird stuff to the fluff - don't bother reading into it or comparing it. If you like age of sigmar, then take what they did and run with it as the new new. But the two games are completely different. This is just a simple case of aborted fluff. It's not the first time GW has done that of course, the world is full of fluff that's been rewritten.

    It just happens to be the one time they rewrote it on an epically massive scale though.
  • wingren013wingren013 Posts: 882Registered Users
    Mannfred fulfilled the prophecy. He was Vlads brother (either in turning or as mortals) which fulfills the firstborn thing in multiple ways, he was a sorceror, he raised an army of beasts, and he did kill Malekith.
  • shinrosshinros Posts: 1,517Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    Saitoh said:

    You could make the argument that nowhere in the prophecy does it say the male sorceror is an elf. "The firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts" perfectly describes Mannfred who directly causes Malekith's death at the end of the world.

    Huh, I never thought about it that way before.

    Mannfred fulfilled the prophecy. He was Vlads brother (either in turning or as mortals) which fulfills the firstborn thing in multiple ways, he was a sorceror, he raised an army of beasts, and he did kill Malekith.

    It was likely that he was Vlad's first get considering he talks to Mannfred of Lahmia and the memories there. Also in the vampire trilogy.

    "He may not have loved me the most; that honour, I am certain, went to Isabella, but he certainly loved me the longest"~ Mannfred von Carstein
    Nagash: When Nagash reaches out to crush his enemies, it is with a million hands. When Nagash seeks out his prey, it is with a million eyes.....
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,499Registered Users
    Another consideration is that Mannfred doesn't need to be the firstborn son of Vlad. That could refer to his birth as a living mortal - he'd just need to be the firstborn son of any nobleman, whether Lahmian or Sylvanian.
  • Galvinized_IronGalvinized_Iron Posts: 822Registered Users

    I was told by a very insistent source that the Prophecy of Demise does not actually refer to Malekith.

    And indeed, I can't quite find any pre-End Times source that says Malekith knew it was about him. He merely thought that it might have been.

    I can confirm, with some authority, that it was not
  • DrasanilDrasanil Posts: 392Registered Users
    edited August 2017

    I can confirm, with some authority, that it was not

    And I can confirm with some authority that it did. See how utterly meaningless that statement is?
    Post edited by Drasanil on
  • Galvinized_IronGalvinized_Iron Posts: 822Registered Users
    Drasanil said:

    I can confirm, with some authority, that it was not

    And I can confirm with some authority that it did. See how utter meaningless that statement is?
    Difference is that you have no authority to make such a statement. Shame on you
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,499Registered Users
    To be fair, from the viewpoint of those of us who do not know the basis for that authority, this is a bit of a 'my friend's roommate's girlfriend's uncle' scenario. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but we have no idea how reliable it is.

    I'm inclined to say that it fits with the evidence that the Prophecy of Demise could well be relating to someone else. A dark lord with metal skin and fire for blood... doesn't actually narrow things down that far in the setting. With the End Times, one could even interpret it as Malekith getting it all backwards and it was actually predicting Malekith bringing down the Avatar of Khaine.
  • DrasanilDrasanil Posts: 392Registered Users
    edited August 2017

    Drasanil said:

    I can confirm, with some authority, that it was not

    And I can confirm with some authority that it did. See how utter meaningless that statement is?
    Difference is that you have no authority to make such a statement. Shame on you
    Says who? I have just as much authority as the next anonymous internet person. (ie: put up or shut up, since the last post clearly went over your head.)
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Posts: 4,571Registered Users
    Drasanil said:

    Drasanil said:

    I can confirm, with some authority, that it was not

    And I can confirm with some authority that it did. See how utter meaningless that statement is?
    Difference is that you have no authority to make such a statement. Shame on you
    Says who? I have just as much authority as the next anonymous internet person. (ie: put up or shut up, since the last post clearly went over your head.)
    Dude, he was obviously trolling. ;)
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Posts: 1,091Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    To be fair, from the viewpoint of those of us who do not know the basis for that authority, this is a bit of a 'my friend's roommate's girlfriend's uncle' scenario. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but we have no idea how reliable it is.

    I'm inclined to say that it fits with the evidence that the Prophecy of Demise could well be relating to someone else. A dark lord with metal skin and fire for blood... doesn't actually narrow things down that far in the setting. With the End Times, one could even interpret it as Malekith getting it all backwards and it was actually predicting Malekith bringing down the Avatar of Khaine.

    Which would have been awesome, but Alith Anar Grimgored End Times Khaine even worse than Grimgore Grimgored Storm of Chaos.

    ET Khaine and Storm of Chaos both ended the same way:
    Epic Showdown
    End of the world music
    Battle to the death by the chosen of 2 rival gods
    ...
    Nevermind, somebody came out of nowhere and ruined it.

    How they thought Alith Anar appearing, 1 shotting Tyrion and Malekith then going "Alith Anar is da Best!" was a good idea, I'll never understand.
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