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NOT another "Naval Battles" thread...

Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806
edited August 2017 in General Discussion
So... It's not. It really isn't.

We already seen that CA completely gave up not only naval battles which were awesome feature but also fleets themselves. As shamefull as this is, we need to live with it (at least for as long as it takes them to change their mind).

BUT

Having what is basically a land battle on water autoresolved only is unacceptable. With all nerfs to autoresolve that happened so far it is basically most useless feature there is. There is a simple solution to that though:

- Let us battle it out on a procedurally generated island (with both transport fleets visible in the background on both sides).

Does it make sense from realistic perspective? NO!
Is it better than having actual fleets? NO!

BUT

It will work. It will allow us to actually play, instead of watch some **** algorithm destroy our army. It will allow us to play the game as it's meant to be played, instead of autoresolving 90% of battles (with seas covering most of the map, most action will happen there).
Post edited by BillyRuffian on
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Comments

  • corvus_codexcorvus_codex Junior Member SpainRegistered Users Posts: 3,073
    No thanks,
    also... its even more easy to delete all the bonus or whatever for the auto resolve when the battle occurs in the seas.
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  • Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806
    Why not? Why would You ever prefer autoresolve over actually playing the game?

    Right now Your comment brings nothing to the table. It's "no, because no" with zero arguments whatsoever. If You want to be taken seriously, put some effort into elaborating on Your point of view. Unless of course You'd prefer the game to play itself, than hell yeah, let's also add autoresolve for campaign gameplay itself...
  • LordCommanderLordCommander Registered Users Posts: 2,656
    What does it add, exactly?
    Just as a warning against making predictions- https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/290416/time-to-admit-there-will-be-no-new-dlc-for-twwh-2#latest

    Stung by people disagreeing with you? Try calling them shills and whiteknights, it's way easier than debating.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Registered Users Posts: 1,487
    That's way too silly if I understand correctly.

    This is more fitting for those auto-resolved Black Ark battles.
  • corvus_codexcorvus_codex Junior Member SpainRegistered Users Posts: 3,073
    edited August 2017

    Why not? Why would You ever prefer autoresolve over actually playing the game?

    Right now Your comment brings nothing to the table. It's "no, because no" with zero arguments whatsoever. If You want to be taken seriously, put some effort into elaborating on Your point of view. Unless of course You'd prefer the game to play itself, than hell yeah, let's also add autoresolve for campaign gameplay itself...

    Sorry, I thought my point was so obvious that I did not have to explain it, it's about the breaking the immersion.

    Just imagine, two enemy fleets in the middle of the ocean, for example... Norsca and the dark elves, imagine that they meet and that at the time of fighting they said something like "hey, we better go to this nearby island, and we fight one Normal ground battle, sea battles aren't our strong suit."

    so, yeah, its break so much the immersion to me, so much... that I prefer the autoresolve.

    and, as I said before, the easy way to deal with the occasional marine encounters is just to balance de bonus and such. (yes, the map has a lot of water, but in the seas/oceans, you will only go from point A to point B, and sometimes point C to collect some treasure, it is not that you will be all the time Battling for the seas)
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  • DerpyRoxasDerpyRoxas Registered Users Posts: 3,348
    The only naval battles that I really enjoyed were Fall of the Samurai ones.
    Napoleon and Empire were the most frustrating of all. Just for the kinda unexistent wind all the times.
    From Rome 2 onwards... bring ten onagres triremes, and watch single targeting enemy fleets, one ship at time, starting with the enemy admiral. Boring as hell.
  • BeermachineBeermachine Registered Users Posts: 48
    IMO a better solution would be to have sea travel corridors / special travel (rainbows, sea monsters, worldroots, etc) where the army disappears for 4 turns or so with a couple of random multiple choice events on the way and then arrives just on / off the coast at the new location.

    Still pretty dreadful, but better than having 50% of the map a no-mans land, no meaningful mechanics auto resolve only territory.
  • Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806
    corvo said:

    Sorry, I thought my point was so obvious that I did not have to explain it, it's about the breaking the immersion.

    a) No it wasn't obvious. I'm not a mind reader. Glad You specified Your issue with my idea.
    b) From my perspective gameplay allways come before immersion. There's not point in immersing Yourself in the game world if gameplay isn't there. And in terms of autoresolved LAND battles taking place on WATER it is complete lack of gameplay.
    c) And for the record autoresolve breakes Your immersion just as much. Those aren't fleets. Those are still ground forces, battling it out on ground rules, You just don't see it happen, You just see result instead. So honestly? You can safely bash CA for breaking the immersion, as I'm just trying to salvage what's left of gameplay there.
  • Neolucifer2000Neolucifer2000 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 956
    edited August 2017

    So... It's not. It really isn't.

    We already seen that CA completely gave up not only naval battles which were awesome feature but also fleets themselves. As shamefull as this is, we need to live with it (at least for as long as it takes them to change their mind).

    BUT

    Having what is basically a land battle on water autoresolved only is unacceptable. With all nerfs to autoresolve that happened so far it is basically most useless feature there is. There is a simple solution to that though:

    - Let us battle it out on a procedurally generated island (with both transport fleets visible in the background on both sides).

    Does it make sense from realistic perspective? NO!
    Is it better than having actual fleets? NO!

    BUT

    It will work. It will allow us to actually play, instead of watch some **** algorithm destroy our army. It will allow us to play the game as it's meant to be played, instead of autoresolving 90% of battles (with seas covering most of the map, most action will happen there).

    I was thinking the same, an island or a "bunch of ships together" which makes it a flat land battle... yes it will be great if CA comes up with an alternative
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on


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  • AndkatAndkat Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited August 2017
    To be fair, land armies resolving against eachother at sea just based on unit strength rather than anything to do with ships and naval technology is likewise absurd and incongruous. I don't sea why a simple build-your-own-ships autoresolve model like in Rome 1 or Medieval 2 would be so hard to implement- you just need a few naval unit cards and that's it as far as assets go. Failing that, having 'naval battles' that just consisting of boarding ships chained together or whatever would still be preferable to autoresolve only.
  • obippoobippo Member Registered Users Posts: 2,676
    I mean it would probably be pretty easy to just implement recruitable fleets... making one single ship model and couple dozen of those crap low-res reskins is not much work at all. I still have hope that we may see them in the future, who knows.

    About your idea I have mixed feelings. anything would be better than the **** autoresolve, though.
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  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    I have to say that I don't like the general idea here. Just creating imaginary islands to fight on isn't a good solution - it might make an okay mod, though.

    However, it might work if you added a withdraw option that gave you the chance to land if you are close enough to the coast. Instead of simply retreating, you would then end up fighting a battle on a nearby coastline instead. I'd suggest the attacker got a bombardment to give them an advantage.

    It wouldn't be a real solution (there isn't one, short of a proper naval system), but might help.
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  • JavorJavor Registered Users Posts: 910
    Gonna have to say no to this.

    It would be too iffy being suddenly teleported to an island to fight out your battle. I don't mind the autoresolve for naval battles, and certainly preferred them to fighting on an island all of a sudden.

    An original idea though, and nice reading something that isn't another naval battles thread.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,913
    edited August 2017
    The Heroes of Might and Magic solution...

    I always found it a odd one and probably the last that I would chose... except for autoresolve that is.
    Post edited by SiWI on
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 31,171
    I found naval battles quite awful. Land battles work with 20 units because you can leave big chunks of them alone for significant amounts of time, ships don't work this way, each ship requires a high level of micro management, making 20 on 20 battles an exercise in pausing.

    As to your idea, no. I'd sooner not do a land battle in the middle of the Atlantic ocean thanks.
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  • duglandtotoduglandtoto Registered Users Posts: 431
    edited August 2017
    Why not generate some huge and immobile ships to serve as battlefields with two "command post" on each capital ship that the enemy army will have to capture to win the battle ( the equivalent of a boarding in the middle age) with this way, it is not necessary to do much improvement on the pathfinding, no need to control bugged boats and it will preserve the "battle in the middle of nowhere" atmosphere
  • ShermanSherman Member Registered Users Posts: 916

    The map could be simply done like a lot of ships boarding on each other.
  • RealnosuchnameRealnosuchname Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,495
    I want a return to ship battles before rome 2. When we had to build ships in order to cross the ocean, instead of having armies on transportships being able to cross the sea in no time.
    Auto resolving has been hugely improvement in warhammer 2, its far better compared to the first one, but it still needs some tweaking, especially the dark elves.
  • RealnosuchnameRealnosuchname Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,495
    Naval battles in shogun 2 and fall of the samurai were also a lot more enjoyable as well, instead of having 40 ships on the battlefield, you could cap them at 6 or 8.
    Auto resolving has been hugely improvement in warhammer 2, its far better compared to the first one, but it still needs some tweaking, especially the dark elves.
  • HexiHexi Registered Users Posts: 1,110
    Let's have naval battles, but on land. Genius!

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  • pauli77pauli77 Registered Users Posts: 321
    No interest in naval battles. It will only give people more things to complain about lol: "that ship isn't loreful" "that ship should have more armour" "where's the *insert missing unit*".

    However, for those entitled to want naval battles I doubt another land battle is a solution. I agree with Corvo that surely that makes less sense than auto resolve.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,188

    So... It's not. It really isn't.

    We already seen that CA completely gave up not only naval battles which were awesome feature but also fleets themselves. As shamefull as this is, we need to live with it (at least for as long as it takes them to change their mind).

    BUT

    Having what is basically a land battle on water autoresolved only is unacceptable. With all nerfs to autoresolve that happened so far it is basically most useless feature there is. There is a simple solution to that though:

    - Let us battle it out on a procedurally generated island (with both transport fleets visible in the background on both sides).

    Does it make sense from realistic perspective? NO!
    Is it better than having actual fleets? NO!

    BUT

    It will work. It will allow us to actually play, instead of watch some **** algorithm destroy our army. It will allow us to play the game as it's meant to be played, instead of autoresolving 90% of battles (with seas covering most of the map, most action will happen there).

    Love it!!!!


    Cant STAND autoresolve only.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,188
    I dont care what the map is.

    An island.

    Two massive ships that make a map.

    Just ship floor and cant even see the boat.

    WHATEVER

    Autoresolve only is completely unacceptable. And it is the one thing that has me thinking about not buying whtw 2
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,913
    pauli77 said:

    No interest in naval battles. It will only give people more things to complain about lol: "that ship isn't loreful" "that ship should have more armour" "where's the *insert missing unit*".

    However, for those entitled to want naval battles I doubt another land battle is a solution. I agree with Corvo that surely that makes less sense than auto resolve.

    don't you think that you arguments could be use against any new race/unit/lord ect?

    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • pauli77pauli77 Registered Users Posts: 321
    SiWI said:

    pauli77 said:

    No interest in naval battles. It will only give people more things to complain about lol: "that ship isn't loreful" "that ship should have more armour" "where's the *insert missing unit*".

    However, for those entitled to want naval battles I doubt another land battle is a solution. I agree with Corvo that surely that makes less sense than auto resolve.

    don't you think that you arguments could be use against any new race/unit/lord ect?

    I was only speaking personally and don't mind really lol. It wasn't a serious point.
  • doclumbagodoclumbago Registered Users Posts: 2,078
    I liked Naval in Rome 2 and Shogun 2
    I loved combined Land/Sea battles in Rome 2

    For Naval combat to be done right in TW , I expect CA to work at least 6 months.
    In the meantime: I´d like the option to recruit dedicated combat ships to accompany your troop transports.

    That way you´re able to stack the Autoresolve in your favour at least

    Or you could play like a naval super-power and shield your island by strong warships
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774

    I liked Naval in Rome 2 and Shogun 2
    I loved combined Land/Sea battles in Rome 2

    For Naval combat to be done right in TW , I expect CA to work at least 6 months.
    In the meantime: I´d like the option to recruit dedicated combat ships to accompany your troop transports.

    That way you´re able to stack the Autoresolve in your favour at least

    Or you could play like a naval super-power and shield your island by strong warships

    Agreed, adding fleets to auto-resolves would at least bring a maneuver element to the nautical campaign map, which could be expanded later with proper naval combat. It would be a decent stopgap. The suggestion in the OP feels too much like giving up on ever having navy in TW:WH.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    Honestly, I'd rather naval battles be autoresolve and therefore awful than any other solution save actual naval battles. I loved the naval battles in Empire, Shogun II, and FotS. I want actual naval battles, and a bad system that generates negative press seems the best way to get it.
  • Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806

    Agreed, adding fleets to auto-resolves would at least bring a maneuver element to the nautical campaign map, which could be expanded later with proper naval combat. It would be a decent stopgap. The suggestion in the OP feels too much like giving up on ever having navy in TW:WH.

    CA gave that up for us. And never asked us for opinion. And besides wishing that karma does it's job, we can do nothing about it. Might at least do something about obvious nonsense, which is having half the game locked behind autoresolve button.
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