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Glorified expansion to take more of our money nonsense

2

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  • FrostPaw#5051FrostPaw#5051 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,229
    edited September 2017
    As always what you choose to spend your money on is your business. If you want it but you don't want to pay the asking price, maybe that reveals something about your standards that you feel uncomfortable wiith.

    If you truly believe what you think you believe, you don't need to convince others.
  • Grudgebearer101Grudgebearer101 Registered Users Posts: 28
    Or get a job, then you won't be complaining about costs.
  • RonNLRonNL Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 807
    Ixal said:

    ron1404nl said:



    I also think it is a bold that you say the they put less effort in this game which you simply cannot know.

    When you look qt how much could be reused from Warhammer 1 it is pretty obvious that Warhammer 2 required less effort. (In a management sense meaning man-days or man-years).
    If they spend the same amount of effort, where did it go?
    How the hell would I know, I have not played the game yet.
  • EK5000EK5000 Senior Member FinlandRegistered Users Posts: 153
    Ixal said:

    When you look qt how much could be reused from Warhammer 1 it is pretty obvious that Warhammer 2 required less effort. (In a management sense meaning man-days or man-years).
    If they spend the same amount of effort, where did it go?

    Maybe they spent more time, for example, animating all the stuff that couldn't be just reused? It isn't all that simple to do after all.

    Especially since you can't really use motion capture for races like skaven and lizardmen, it's not like you can just have a T-rex brought to the studio, paint blue dots on it and have it rampage in front of the cameras.

    Engine tweaking, animation and art, writing etc, there's more to games than just the engine it runs on, maybe those areas had more work done on them than in game 1?

    And please, can we stop with the game engine BS, just because you are working on a new game, doesn't mean you have to build an entirely new engine to justify the price, that's just not how things are. Especially with a game trilogy that has a pretty short gap between installments.
  • IxalmarisIxalmaris Registered Users Posts: 851
    EK5000 said:


    And please, can we stop with the game engine BS, just because you are working on a new game, doesn't mean you have to build an entirely new engine to justify the price, that's just not how things are. Especially with a game trilogy that has a pretty short gap between installments.

    The only one mentioning the engine here is you...
  • HighRoller64#8823HighRoller64#8823 Registered Users Posts: 304
    edited September 2017
    Ixal said:

    ron1404nl said:



    I also think it is a bold that you say the they put less effort in this game which you simply cannot know.

    When you look qt how much could be reused from Warhammer 1 it is pretty obvious that Warhammer 2 required less effort. (In a management sense meaning man-days or man-years).
    If they spend the same amount of effort, where did it go?
    You assume that you know enough to make an accurate evaluation on the effort put into this game, even when such a thing is so highly subjective as to make such an evaluation inevitably ignorant.

    If they didn't put as much into the making of this game, it would not have taken as long to make. Either way, models, textures, animations, breath attacks, fortress gates, a new campaign map, new races, new lores, vortex mechanic, etc. are all new things, regardless of similarity.

    Even if it used the same system as the first game, they still had to make the new campaign map. All the new units and magic lores needed to be balanced to the already existing ones. That requires effort.

    Only the developers at CA know how much effort was put into the making of this game. Anybody here that has had nothing to do with it can make an educated judgement on that.

    One of the things i've learned in life is that the better you get at doing something, the easier it looks to those on the outside. The refinement of your craft takes the signs or clues of your effort out of the product. It is not easy to make beautiful sculptures, but when you look at one you don't see the effort put in.
  • EK5000EK5000 Senior Member FinlandRegistered Users Posts: 153
    Ixal said:

    The only one mentioning the engine here is you...

    Nope, and besides, this thread might as well be a sequel (or an expansion..?) to the previous thread on this exact same topic, and a lot of the bickering had to do with the game engine.
  • Blood_DragonBlood_Dragon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 885


    It's a... it's a... it's a shill!

    "Victory or death, there is no other outcome. Honour is everything. I am a knight of the Ordo Draconis, and I will achieve perfection."
  • IxalmarisIxalmaris Registered Users Posts: 851
    edited September 2017


    Even if it used the same system as the first game, they still had to make the new campaign map. All the new units and magic lores needed to be balanced to the already existing ones. That requires effort.

    Yes but Game 1 required the exact same effort for that, too. In addition they could not copy any models or animation or reuse art assets for the campaign map. And they had to design and implement monsters, flyers and magic in the engine. All major features which Game 2 can use. And as it does not have anything new which comes even close to even one of those things its very obvious that Game 2 required less effort than Game 1. Thus it is an expansion.
    The standalone expansions Relic did for Dawn of War or Company of Heroes are a very good comparison.
  • Prkl8r#9998Prkl8r#9998 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,242
    Meh, this is all the same stuff people said about how they split SC2 into 3 games, but people still bought it.
  • KronusXKronusX Registered Users Posts: 2,464
    edited September 2017
    Standalone, expansion, heck they can call it unicorn magic for all I care. W/e they name it does not matter, what matters is if the price is worth for the content provided. I have so far about 150h in ,all dlcs and could always put in more, but then again 2nd one is coming out soon (along with Shadow of war right after) and I have a backlog with about 800 other games to play.

    Honestly you will never satisfy everyone. Heck, on a forum, one guy mention that for him Witcher 3 GOTY was only worth 10-15$ because he had 3000 games in his library.
  • chrissher7chrissher7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,038
    edited September 2017

    Sadly on here the percentage of people who have that not absurd at all, not necassarily CA bashing opinion is small.

    Fixed. It's not an absurd opinion when it is the right one and the only people who truly believe otherwise have obviously fallen for marketing. Judging by that russian datamine even CA themselves internally refer to Warhammer II as a Warhammer I expansion pack. On the contrary believing that it is a sequel is absurd. Also it's not bashing the developers either because believing it is an expansion and thinking it should cheaper are not mutually exclusive things. I still think it is worth the money for the sheer amount of hours you could get out of it but recognise it is really a standalone expansion. I'd be one of those whiners on steam who constantly whine about their only slightly flawed DLC policy and now the expansion's pricing if I was bashing them instead. Other expansions that function like this are labelled as such and this one isn't for marketing reasons only.
    Post edited by chrissher7 on
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455
    Maybe calling it Total War: Warhammer 2 was not the best decision, as it's annoyed some historical fanatics, but the price is fair, as a single race dlc tend to cost more if anything.
  • HighRoller64#8823HighRoller64#8823 Registered Users Posts: 304
    Ixal said:


    Even if it used the same system as the first game, they still had to make the new campaign map. All the new units and magic lores needed to be balanced to the already existing ones. That requires effort.

    Yes but Game 1 required the exact same effort for that, too. In addition they could not copy any models or animation or reuse art assets for the campaign map. And they had to design and implement monsters, flyers and magic in the engine. All major features which Game 2 can use. And as it does not have anything new which comes even close to even one of those things its very obvious that Game 2 required less effort than Game 1. Thus it is an expansion.
    The standalone expansions Relic did for Dawn of War or Company of Heroes are a very good comparison.
    The argument could be made that balancing for Game 2 is even harder because there is more to take into account.

    I do not believe that it is obvious in any sense. I'm not arguing that they didn't use any old assets, I'm arguing that you have no idea the amount of work that went into this game. You only get to see the end result.

    To say unequivocally that this game is no great effort is a gross overestimation of your understanding of the situation. You seem to be saying that your belief, that their work on game 2 is significantly less than that was put into game one, is the absolute truth.

    Nobody knows how much effort has been made. Your comments (and those on the old thread) lead one to believe that, beyond a semantic argument of definition, their efforts are no less than slapping a new label on an old game with a spit polish.
  • IxalmarisIxalmaris Registered Users Posts: 851



    Nobody knows how much effort has been made. Your comments (and those on the old thread) lead one to believe that, beyond a semantic argument of definition, their efforts are no less than slapping a new label on an old game with a spit polish.

    "Effort" is a term used in project management to represent amount of work and not something like dedication etc.
    And while I do not know the exact effort CA spend I can make a rough guess (I work in software engineering btw.) at how much the additional effort the new features you see in Game 2 took and non of them look like requiring even remotely as much effort (=work) than even one of the big features (flyers, monsters, magic) in the first game.

    Sure, it is possible that CA spend a lot more effort on the game than it looks like because they redesigned it 5 times during development, but as a customer I pay for the end product and the end product is just an expansion without any major feature additions that would warrant it being a new game.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    Does it really matter what it is? Sure, consider it a standalone or a sequal or even an expansion. I consider it a little part of each but by my standards it sure as hell is NOT a glorified money grab. There's a near perfect balance of business practices and fairness to the player base.
  • HighRoller64#8823HighRoller64#8823 Registered Users Posts: 304
    Ixal said:



    Nobody knows how much effort has been made. Your comments (and those on the old thread) lead one to believe that, beyond a semantic argument of definition, their efforts are no less than slapping a new label on an old game with a spit polish.

    "Effort" is a term used in project management to represent amount of work and not something like dedication etc.
    And while I do not know the exact effort CA spend I can make a rough guess (I work in software engineering btw.) at how much the additional effort the new features you see in Game 2 took and non of them look like requiring even remotely as much effort (=work) than even one of the big features (flyers, monsters, magic) in the first game.

    Sure, it is possible that CA spend a lot more effort on the game than it looks like because they redesigned it 5 times during development, but as a customer I pay for the end product and the end product is just an expansion without any major feature additions that would warrant it being a new game.
    Alright, I'm going to use an analogy.

    You have a friend. He decides he is going to renovate a house. He takes a house, which is definitely a fixer-upper, and really puts some elbow grease into it and make it nice.

    You don't see the guy for a while, but he keeps sending you semi-frequent updates on some accomplishments, couple pictures, a couple snapchats, and while you can recognize the parts of the house, they look much better.

    A while passes and you go and visit, and he gives you a tour of the house. He doesn't go very in-depth into what he did to clean things up, but it's obvious from what you saw before that he kept the plumbing, structure, and electrical.

    He is going through the process of putting this renovated house on the market, and he (rightfully so, in my opinion) is asking for a price similar than that of the house when it was new.

    Im not arguing that this isn't the same house, although it could be argued that effectively it isn't. i'm debating the notion that the house 1) hasn't had significant work done on it and 2) that the price isn't justifiable.


    You say you're a software engineer. All that means is that you have a slight understanding of a small part of what it might be like working on a game.

    You can call the game an expansion or whatever the hell you want. The problem most people have with what you are saying is that you really understate their efforts (or Work, because semantics seem to matter in this argument) without any Real understanding of the situation beyond your narrow band of understanding, which is impossible to gain without having true insight into their business.

    You have no humility towards your limitations. We all (myself included) have very little understanding beyond "i'm paying for this game, and this is the price." A price, that also would include payment for the developer's work.
  • Tibi088Tibi088 Registered Users Posts: 178
    edited September 2017
    I dont care about the effort put in. I dont pay for the hours they work, I pay for the product they make. If its well made and a great game i dont care if it was made in 2 months or in two years. Similarly I wont buy it if its bad even if they put in a hundred years worth of effort and work.

    Also my point was that I dont care if it was an expansion or a sequel. We all know that the alternative would be 4 separate DLC which we would pay much more for than a game 2. Also as DLC is not necesserily liked but mostly accepted by now by the majority of the buyers I think they would have gotten away with less complain than this way. We would be far worse off so Im happy they didnt go that way.

    And about the evil DLC model: I know and partly understand those remembering the old expansion model which was better for us price wise but for years all the games I play have gone on to the DLC model. The old times are gone and its time to accept the change. Sales shows that the market did accep it. Whining about it even now years later accomplishes nothing.

    ps.: I of course ment wood elven DLC in OP but the impulse I made the thread on was a post I read in a certain High Elven thread
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,759
    The obvious problem here is we can't measure how much effort was put in the game. That makes any speculation just that; pure speculation. If one of my customers (I do internal customer service) went around saying I didn't do any work and didn't earn my money I'd consider that abuse and I'd take action accordingly. Sadly CA can't do that here so it's used as a stick by some people to make what is nothing less than a personal insult to CA's employees.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • IxalmarisIxalmaris Registered Users Posts: 851


    Alright, I'm going to use an analogy.

    Ok, lets me make an analogy to.

    You have an artist who paints a splendid picture from scratch and sells it. But before that he made a photocopy of said pictures and he paints over this photocopy. Yet it is still clearly recognizable as a photocopy of his first picture with some parts added to it. And now he wants to sell this picture asking for the exact same amount of money as his first picture sold for.
  • dodge33cymru#1936dodge33cymru#1936 Registered Users Posts: 3,430
    RandomTag said:

    Game 2 is the proper game, Game 1 is a glorified beta charged for $60

    I would say Game '3' is the proper game, with Games '1' and '2' being DLCs that grant you Early Access and involve you in the development.
  • Helhound#7332Helhound#7332 Registered Users Posts: 5,374
    This argument is incredibly pointless.

    The product CA is selling is called Total War Warhammer 2. They have been mostly transparent with the development process. Interpret from the content what you will.

    They are selling said product for 60 USD. Using your perceptions and expectations of said product, do you think its worth it? If not, then don't buy it. If yes, purchase and support development. The comsumers wallet says way more then their words ever could in regards to industry sales practices.
  • HighRoller64#8823HighRoller64#8823 Registered Users Posts: 304
    Ixal said:


    Alright, I'm going to use an analogy.

    Ok, lets me make an analogy to.

    You have an artist who paints a splendid picture from scratch and sells it. But before that he made a photocopy of said pictures and he paints over this photocopy. Yet it is still clearly recognizable as a photocopy of his first picture with some parts added to it. And now he wants to sell this picture asking for the exact same amount of money as his first picture sold for.
    Not as clear cut an analogy. This is a visibly different game. Either way, you can say it's more of an expansion, but even expansion is extra content, not a "photocopy".

    You really don't believe that in any possibility that you may be leaving some of the equation out? You're drastically generalizing this. I can see what you're saying, I really can. I'm just saying you're not looking at it from a humble enough standpoint.

    You don't know everything there is to this, neither do I. To be so absolute in your conclusions leaves you blinded to other possibilities.
  • Coldone666#8229Coldone666#8229 Registered Users Posts: 804
    Do all the trolls get excitement from constantly bashing CA?

    If you hate CA so much then why bother playing the game or visiting the forums? Just leave.
  • RiddlebickRiddlebick Registered Users Posts: 254
    Hi,

    I mean it's like with cars! People always say they have an entirely new car. Duh!
    It's an expansion!
    They used same materials, similar design even reused that wheel idea!
    Standalone expansion car 2!

    (Just joking)

    You all know that Rorschach test?

    Expansion or Game - it's just in your head. In reality it's just some digitalised ink on pages.

    Let that sink for a minute.

    Ok. I admit, Im bored. :p
    :#
  • Nazjax#2857Nazjax#2857 Registered Users Posts: 2,557
    edited September 2017
    If you like Something you just buy it, no ones forced you to buy Warhammer 2. You want and like the game you buy it, you can't dont buy it lol... No one force you.

    I just dont understand people who always cry for prices. We live on an economical world, just understand it. CA are not volunteers, they worked for it every work have a cost. I'll prefer paid 60 and have a good game than have nothing.

    Also you prefer ''DLC'' instead of big extension who give us a lot of content who is a lot more worked than just DLC. (A lot of ppl was sad about HE or Beastmens DLC.)
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    Who the hell cares. The game looks wicked fun. Call it expansion, sequel, dlc, call it Dave if you wish. It's still fun.
  • FinishingLast#1402FinishingLast#1402 Registered Users Posts: 4,860
    Xenos7 said:

    Who the hell cares. The game looks wicked fun. Call it expansion, sequel, dlc, call it Dave if you wish. It's still fun.

    Well now it's official. Total War: Warhammer Dave
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • steam_164510928748qF8o2besteam_164510928748qF8o2be Registered Users Posts: 1,766
    Xenos7 said:

    Who the hell cares. The game looks wicked fun. Call it expansion, sequel, dlc, call it Dave if you wish. It's still fun.

    Im hyped for total war dave!

  • Arthas_Menethil#3421Arthas_Menethil#3421 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,368
    Xenos7 said:

    Who the hell cares. The game looks wicked fun. Call it expansion, sequel, dlc, call it Dave if you wish. It's still fun.

    Sweet reruns of Top Gear. :D
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

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