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If Swordmasters beat the Executioners

TomipapaTomipapa Registered Users Posts: 101
I have no problem with that itself. I just noticed in Lionheart coop video that the Executioners are t5 units while the black guards are t4. The helfs have it the opposite way SM t4 and Phoenix guard t5. So isn't it strange a little that a t4 unit is beating its t5 direct counterpart? It's like if a Grave guard(t3) would beat a hammerer(t4). Why are they t5 anyway? I thought black guards are the cream of the crop. A bit strange to me.




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  • jhandjhand Registered Users Posts: 409
    its making them different?
  • TomipapaTomipapa Registered Users Posts: 101
    jhand said:

    its making them different?

    By bringing the weaker unit into higher tier? I know a couple of other way to make the helf different from the delf without something like this
  • AnnoyedOneEyedGuyAnnoyedOneEyedGuy Registered Users Posts: 2,484
    Well campaign is different from custom battle and multiplayer due to buffs from campaign mechanics and other abilities. From the lore Executioners spend half their day as sentry and the other half practicing and sparring with other executioners. I dont know anything about the Swordmasters. i think the executioners MIGHT be able to beat the Swordmasters cause they're more geared towards damage and killing especially if Murderous Prowess pops off
  • TomipapaTomipapa Registered Users Posts: 101
    @PissedOffOneEyedGuy : No, it was stated i think by Ato that the SM beat the Executioners in 1v1
  • jhandjhand Registered Users Posts: 409
    Tomipapa said:

    jhand said:

    its making them different?

    By bringing the weaker unit into higher tier? I know a couple of other way to make the helf different from the delf without something like this
    are they filling the same role? armor piercing vs anti infantry vs anti large or whatever. could be that swordmasters are better against the type of troop that executioners are than vice versa.

    i guess I don't see the problem of them flipping halbred units and great weapon units in the tier selection. Can't think of a reason for them to be the same. and not sure where you could say one is better or weaker than the other based on lore. on the TT i would say both SM and Phoenix Guard are better than their counterparts. SM have higher WS, Phoenix Guard have a 4+ ward save.
  • Caffynated#2235Caffynated#2235 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,466
    It's CA, nothing they do makes sense when you compare it to TT.

    Executioners are the DE mirror of White Lions and they should be the same tier. (12 points and 13 points respectively)

    Swordmasters should be the same tier as WL, but have higher damage and weapon skill, but lower AP.

    Black Guard are the DE mirror of Phoenix Guard and they should be the same tier. (15 points each)

    Stop changing things for no reason.
  • Galvinized_IronGalvinized_Iron Registered Users Posts: 1,025
    Where are they beating them?
  • TomipapaTomipapa Registered Users Posts: 101
    edited September 2017
    @jhand : They are filling the same role. Both are ap with bonus vs infantry. You are mistaking executioners with black guards. Black guards are the one with halbers.
  • TomipapaTomipapa Registered Users Posts: 101

    Where are they beating them?

    As i said it was stated by the devs. i try to find it
  • jhandjhand Registered Users Posts: 409
    Tomipapa said:

    @jhand : They are filling the same role. Both are ap with bonus vs infantry. You are mistaking executioners with black guards. Black guards are the one with halbers.

    in the TT they are better. plenty of factions lower tiered unites can beat higher tiered opponents with the same weapons.

    Wasn't confusing them with the ones with halbreds. OP notes how SM (greatweapons) were tier 4 for HE, while for the DE the greatweapons were tier 5. with the halbreds being switched the opposite.
  • Galvinized_IronGalvinized_Iron Registered Users Posts: 1,025
    So what will be the strength of the Dark Elves in the game? Better medium tier infantry?
  • AngmirAngmir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,253

    So what will be the strength of the Dark Elves in the game? Better medium tier infantry?

    Strengh of Dark Elves is their Damage potencial - they are all about Dealing a lot of hurt fast.

    Their main tactic is lighting fast attacks, and if initial first minutes wont break the enemy to withdraw.

    HE are supreme at pure military strenght - masters of straigh up fights.

    DE fight dirty - they attack where enemy is unprepared and regroup when they face a tough oponent. Using mixture of Cunning and Shock Brutatlity.
  • krunshkrunsh Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,695
    It can sometimes make sense for a faction to have a similar unit available earlier or later than another (different tier), due to the rest of their available units. It's not just about balance units against units, but a whole faction against another.
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  • Otters007#7127Otters007#7127 Registered Users Posts: 1,607
    edited September 2017
    Regardless; Black guard, Executioners, Swordmasters and Phoenix guard all seem to be excellent units. Can't wait to use them.
  • Talmorean#3084Talmorean#3084 Registered Users Posts: 1,487

    Where are they beating them?

    Out behind the wood shed.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,135

    It's CA, nothing they do makes sense when you compare it to TT.

    Executioners are the DE mirror of White Lions and they should be the same tier. (12 points and 13 points respectively)

    Swordmasters should be the same tier as WL, but have higher damage and weapon skill, but lower AP.

    Black Guard are the DE mirror of Phoenix Guard and they should be the same tier. (15 points each)

    Stop changing things for no reason.

    I agree, good game design is no reason to change anything!
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  • MerarchesMerarches Registered Users Posts: 470
    edited September 2017
    one thing i know that exec. have much better armor.think this make them more tankier vs non ap/ anti inf. units

    when im corrext the exec. had to kill a unit on a 6 and ignoring armor. same like graveguard. (forge the name of this skill )

    WL and SM cost the same on TT but im sure SM will beat the WL nearly every match

    and in warhammer we see that sauraus warrios ( 800 gold) do good dmg vs PG ( 1400)

    and so on
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455
    Yes the Black Guards are Malekith's personal army, so they supposed to be the best unit that the Dark Elves have, but it's might have something to do with how Halberds are working in Total War.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Guard
  • mahboi1mahboi1 Member Registered Users Posts: 801
    Tayvar said:

    Yes the Black Guards are Malekith's personal army, so they supposed to be the best unit that the Dark Elves have, but it's might have something to do with how Halberds are working in Total War.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Guard

    Didn't CA_Duck say that there isn't any real discrepancy in the animations for swords and halberds?
    Sigmar wills it!
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,455
    mahboi1 said:

    Tayvar said:

    Yes the Black Guards are Malekith's personal army, so they supposed to be the best unit that the Dark Elves have, but it's might have something to do with how Halberds are working in Total War.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Guard

    Didn't CA_Duck say that there isn't any real discrepancy in the animations for swords and halberds?
    I am not talking about animations , but Halberds serves as 'half spear' role in Total War, for unti-large/anti-cavalry, while in real life Halberds are good against almost everything, except arrows.
  • azurewrath44#2760azurewrath44#2760 Registered Users Posts: 622
    I was happy to see today that SM received a buff. They now have 90 armor.
  • EmarthEmarth Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 401
    Swordmasters cost 100 more than executioners (1300 to 1200 respectively) and Phenix Guards cost 100 more than Black Guard (1400 to 1300 respectivly)

    Seems HE infantry being more expensive than the DE infantry and the DE archers being more expensive than the HE archers.
  • mahboi1mahboi1 Member Registered Users Posts: 801
    Tayvar said:

    mahboi1 said:

    Tayvar said:

    Yes the Black Guards are Malekith's personal army, so they supposed to be the best unit that the Dark Elves have, but it's might have something to do with how Halberds are working in Total War.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Guard

    Didn't CA_Duck say that there isn't any real discrepancy in the animations for swords and halberds?
    I am not talking about animations , but Halberds serves as 'half spear' role in Total War, for unti-large/anti-cavalry, while in real life Halberds are good against almost everything, except arrows.
    Yeah, I get that there's gotta be some concessions in order for the whole fantasy setting to work, but come on, rock paper scissors has no place in what is supposed to be, for all intents and purposes, a tactical battle sim.
    Sigmar wills it!
  • Krunch#7448Krunch#7448 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,480
    edited September 2017
    Tayvar said:

    mahboi1 said:

    Tayvar said:

    Yes the Black Guards are Malekith's personal army, so they supposed to be the best unit that the Dark Elves have, but it's might have something to do with how Halberds are working in Total War.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Guard

    Didn't CA_Duck say that there isn't any real discrepancy in the animations for swords and halberds?
    I am not talking about animations , but Halberds serves as 'half spear' role in Total War, for unti-large/anti-cavalry, while in real life Halberds are good against almost everything, except arrows.
    They were good against basically everything in Med2 and Shogun 2 which is what really makes me upset, Halberds were fine in those games but are just Spears+ in this game.
  • Canuovea#6291Canuovea#6291 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,953
    Emarth said:

    Swordmasters cost 100 more than executioners (1300 to 1200 respectively) and Phenix Guards cost 100 more than Black Guard (1400 to 1300 respectivly)

    Seems HE infantry being more expensive than the DE infantry and the DE archers being more expensive than the HE archers.

    It seems the High Elves have better highest tier infantry for one on one fights with high tier infantry... but this is made up for by a weaker mid tier it seems to me.
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  • steam_164511531915TqL1vw0steam_164511531915TqL1vw0 Registered Users Posts: 760
    edited September 2017
    This is because HE have no other sword infantry and takes them faster to fill the purpose but they mention that in 1vs1 fight SM beat executioners. For the god sake stop with the tears about HE. They are amazing.
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 5,346
    edited September 2017
    Canuovea said:

    Emarth said:

    Swordmasters cost 100 more than executioners (1300 to 1200 respectively) and Phenix Guards cost 100 more than Black Guard (1400 to 1300 respectivly)

    Seems HE infantry being more expensive than the DE infantry and the DE archers being more expensive than the HE archers.

    It seems the High Elves have better highest tier infantry for one on one fights with high tier infantry... but this is made up for by a weaker mid tier it seems to me.
    And weak low tier. Which is perfect in my opinion. The specialist units definied HE armies. You could build HE 800 ways but for all 800 the High Elves needed a lynchpin unit. Going all cav? Elyrian screen for Dragon Princes. Hammer anvil? Get those swordmasters on a flank and watch them work. By creating really high tier, and bottom tier units, the high elf specialist really earn their place and pay.
  • GrayserGrayser Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 323
    edited September 2017
    Isent this all rather accurate?

    The Dark elves had some very cost effective units in terms of points but still very strong and close to the HE in terms of stats but not quite there if my tabletop memory serves me right, I played in the 7th ed so my info may be out of date considering this is based on 8th.

    To me it seems about right that the Dark elves are slightly weaker then their HE mirrors when you factor in cost and Murderous prowess. Its not like its a landslide in terms of different stats so everything can basically change the match in favor of either.
  • Otters007#7127Otters007#7127 Registered Users Posts: 1,607

    Canuovea said:

    Emarth said:

    Swordmasters cost 100 more than executioners (1300 to 1200 respectively) and Phenix Guards cost 100 more than Black Guard (1400 to 1300 respectivly)

    Seems HE infantry being more expensive than the DE infantry and the DE archers being more expensive than the HE archers.

    It seems the High Elves have better highest tier infantry for one on one fights with high tier infantry... but this is made up for by a weaker mid tier it seems to me.
    And weak low tier. Which is perfect in my opinion. The specialist units definied HE armies. You could build HE 800 ways but for all 800 the High Elves needed a lynchpin unit. Going all cav? Elyrian screen for Dragon Princes. Hammer anvil? Get those swordmasters on a flank and watch them work. By creating really high tier, and bottom tier units, the high elf specialist really earn their place and pay.

    Do they really have a weak low tier? Their spearmen and archers seem pretty good for low tier units.
  • Canuovea#6291Canuovea#6291 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,953
    Otters007 said:

    Canuovea said:

    Emarth said:

    Swordmasters cost 100 more than executioners (1300 to 1200 respectively) and Phenix Guards cost 100 more than Black Guard (1400 to 1300 respectivly)

    Seems HE infantry being more expensive than the DE infantry and the DE archers being more expensive than the HE archers.

    It seems the High Elves have better highest tier infantry for one on one fights with high tier infantry... but this is made up for by a weaker mid tier it seems to me.
    And weak low tier. Which is perfect in my opinion. The specialist units definied HE armies. You could build HE 800 ways but for all 800 the High Elves needed a lynchpin unit. Going all cav? Elyrian screen for Dragon Princes. Hammer anvil? Get those swordmasters on a flank and watch them work. By creating really high tier, and bottom tier units, the high elf specialist really earn their place and pay.

    Do they really have a weak low tier? Their spearmen and archers seem pretty good for low tier units.
    I like what I see, I admit, but those aren't bleakswords and AP doom crossbows.
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