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The case for Tilea and Estalia

ArstellandaArstellanda Registered Users Posts: 341
edited September 2017 in General Discussion
FINAL EDIT: To address some of the thoughts around here, I wanted to just state that the intention of the post wasn't really to speculate on how these nations would look like in the game, BUT to express my desire to see them in the game as playable factions, and potentially seeing them with something similar to this, trying to thwart the Skaven plans and so on, that is, after all, not for me to decide. I'm not the first asking for this, considering I already saw posts around the internet, nevertheless I just wanted to say that, IF done right, I would definitely pay for an Estalia/Tilea DLC as proper factions in the game. Just a wish, no matter how slim the possibility really is.

With the arrival of TW: Warhammer 2 AND the combined map (Mortal Empires), I felt like I had to make this, even though I know I'm not the only one who posted something like this, I still wanted to give my opinion and give an idea on how they can be potentially modified in order for them to be made playable. In both situations, there is always to consider that CA has been given the freedom to actually create lore, certainly not to change everything, but since it's a game and things like the Empire destroying all the Wood Elves and Dwarves is possible IN THE GAME, it should very well be possible to guide the other factions in the same way, with the difference that the situation they're starting with should still reflect the lore of the times, with freedom given to the player as soon as the game starts, of course, and a few objectives.

Tilea:
  • This could very well be an opportunity (for both Tilea and Estalia) where they can add lore to nations who could be used for more than being mere footnotes in the lore, despite certain important things happening in these locations as well as adding more variety to the human cultures that isn't just FANATICISM from Bretonnia and the Empire. A chance to flex the creative muscle and add something more to the humans.
  • In terms of rivals, well there are still plenty, especially when it comes to TW: Warhammer 2 coming adding the Skaven. Considering Tilea is one of the regions where at least Miragliano recognises them as a threat, due to Skavenblight being right next to them and having fought them in the past, it would be interesting to see a campaign where the Principality of Miragliano (one of the more relevant city states lorewise too) attempts to impose its dominion over the others as usual, and the first objective being uniting Tilea, and then passing to address the Skaven threat and venture in the New World, much like Pirazzo's Lost Legion did, even though they were from Tobaro. Nevertheless the Skaven, Estalia and the New World threats can very well be where the campaign for Tilea (after uniting the region) as a player would lead to.
  • The much awaited models would help differentiate them from using Empire units and give them the much deserved makeover necessary to consolidate their identity.
  • How would this work? Well as posted elsewhere, one of the ways it could work would be to make the unification process a challenge, starting with a weak state however, designing with a stronger late game in mind, specifically due to a culture that would actually embrace progress and having personas such as Leonardo da Miragliano actually bring something new to the table for the Empire too. In one way, as long as Tilea hasn't been unified you can make it so that the individual states can't declare war to anybody else other than the city states of Estalia and Tilea or for defense, and while they would be easy prey initially (lorewise they were) you could have minor bonuses that would allow them to not get completely steamrolled by other stronger factions, maybe making the Dogs of War being available for use from the start, due to both Tilea and Estalia employing the DoW to fight their battles instead of their minor standing army at the beginning.
Estalia:
  • In very much the same way there isn't much lore here, however, much less than Tilea. This can give a blank page to CA to work with and allow them to follow the history of colonial Spain of our world and add similar units such as an equivalent of the Tercios to Warhammer.
  • Similarly to Tilea the threats come in different shapes, except that Estalia, always having the possibility to chase the Skaven, may have the chance to deal with the Beastmen. Additionally, the campaign may revolve primarily in settling in the New World, and, much like Miragliano for Tilea, Magritta could be the playable faction as they are one of the most powerful Kingdoms in Estalia and have a colony already in the New World.
  • Whereas unification would be important for Tilea, in Estalia it could be more of a steady process, coming with influence and wealth from the New World that would allow you to absorb the other city states, until the nation is unified and new unique units are unlocked, tied to Estalia directly.
In both instances since the area is smaller but both regions are said to be obscenely rich, it would be much better if trying to include more regions for the city states, so as to represent a bit more closely the entities present in the territories, but instead of having multiple towns just have 1, like the Wood Elves, with 7 or 9 slots and so on, but always with the ability to conquer other cities and develop them normally like the Empire. Just the areas in Estalia in Tilea would be worth those slots certainly.

Final Thoughts:

While I do realise that whether these two nations getting officially released is not for me to decide, I still think that it would be a shame to not give some justice to them, especially since the end they're given in the End Times (underwhelming to say the least) and since here the freedom is given to the player, it would still be nice to get them more fleshed out and for CA to have a proper shot of building new lore out of "nothing".

But even then, I also realise, that it would take A LOT of work to get this done and if it were to be released, then I would assume it would be paid DLC, because major changes would need to happen as well as adding a story for these factions, such as adding more Republics/Kingdoms/Principalities in the game as their own factions for the player to conquer in an area that isn't the biggest even though it has plenty of smaller nations in it.

As a final note I'll admit, that I've always been fascinated by these nations and it would be really nice to have them with their own system and culture in the game naturally developing into more of an empire when you play the game, it would definitely will be a DLC I would pay for.
Post edited by Arstellanda on
«13

Comments

  • EquixEquix Registered Users Posts: 1,323
    Dogs of War had official rulebook, and before having more undead I expect alive human to come first: Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes and New Colonies would be the first race DLC.
    Zombie Pirates and Amazons would be FLC, and Tomb Kings the second race paid DLC.

    I want TK but I think having Lizardmen, DE and ratmen does need humans to fight with and borrow from HE the fame of being the punching bag of everyone.

    new Undead Legion Nagash, The Nameless, Dieter Helsnicht and Undead Hag or Dragon Empress LL (kislev or cathay mortach).

    MONOBLOODLINES:
    /Necrachs:Zacharias, Melkhior, Radu the forsaken
    /Strigoi:Ushoran, Vorag, The Black Prince, Rametep
    /Blood Dragon:Red Duke, Walach Harkon, Abhorash
    /Lahmia:zNeferata, Nitocris, Ulrika, Naaima

    Tomb Kings:
    Apophas
    (Craddles of Serpents (new race)) Ind+Amazons+Kuresh Together
    /Fishmen and Sea ElvesFishmen with a few Sea Elves.
    Ogre Kingdoms with gut magic and a Gnobblar LL
  • Galvinized_IronGalvinized_Iron Registered Users Posts: 1,025
    edited September 2017
    Equix said:

    Dogs of War had official rulebook, and before having more undead I expect alive human to come first: Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes and New Colonies would be the first race DLC.
    Zombie Pirates and Amazons would be FLC, and Tomb Kings the second race paid DLC.

    I want TK but I think having Lizardmen, DE and ratmen does need humans to fight with and borrow from HE the fame of being the punching bag of everyone.

    Zombie Pirates? Sounds like an oxymoron as you need a soul to be a pirate
  • EquixEquix Registered Users Posts: 1,323
    edited September 2017

    Equix said:

    Dogs of War had official rulebook, and before having more undead I expect alive human to come first: Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes and New Colonies would be the first race DLC.
    Zombie Pirates and Amazons would be FLC, and Tomb Kings the second race paid DLC.

    I want TK but I think having Lizardmen, DE and ratmen does need humans to fight with and borrow from HE the fame of being the punching bag of everyone.

    Zombie Pirates? Sounds like an oxymoron as you need a soul to be a pirate
    Vampire Coast would have 2 vampire LL and very diferent roosters, with zombies and guns. This existed on TT, plays very diferent to Warhamer 1 VC

    Zombie Pirates or Vampire Coast faction don't raise undead like Vampire Counts. Arzhag the first LL is only a warrior vampire commander. Their zombies awaken more like a soul malefice epidemy.

    new Undead Legion Nagash, The Nameless, Dieter Helsnicht and Undead Hag or Dragon Empress LL (kislev or cathay mortach).

    MONOBLOODLINES:
    /Necrachs:Zacharias, Melkhior, Radu the forsaken
    /Strigoi:Ushoran, Vorag, The Black Prince, Rametep
    /Blood Dragon:Red Duke, Walach Harkon, Abhorash
    /Lahmia:zNeferata, Nitocris, Ulrika, Naaima

    Tomb Kings:
    Apophas
    (Craddles of Serpents (new race)) Ind+Amazons+Kuresh Together
    /Fishmen and Sea ElvesFishmen with a few Sea Elves.
    Ogre Kingdoms with gut magic and a Gnobblar LL
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,727

    Equix said:

    Dogs of War had official rulebook, and before having more undead I expect alive human to come first: Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes and New Colonies would be the first race DLC.
    Zombie Pirates and Amazons would be FLC, and Tomb Kings the second race paid DLC.

    I want TK but I think having Lizardmen, DE and ratmen does need humans to fight with and borrow from HE the fame of being the punching bag of everyone.

    Zombie Pirates? Sounds like an oxymoron as you need a soul to be a pirate
    That is true. That's why I believe gingers can't be pirates.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • SteppelordSteppelord Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,315
    Equix said:

    Equix said:

    Dogs of War had official rulebook, and before having more undead I expect alive human to come first: Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes and New Colonies would be the first race DLC.
    Zombie Pirates and Amazons would be FLC, and Tomb Kings the second race paid DLC.

    I want TK but I think having Lizardmen, DE and ratmen does need humans to fight with and borrow from HE the fame of being the punching bag of everyone.

    Zombie Pirates? Sounds like an oxymoron as you need a soul to be a pirate
    Vampire Coast would have 2 vampire LL and very diferent roosters, with zombies and guns. This existed on TT, plays very diferent to Warhamer 1 VC

    Zombie Pirates or Vampire Coast faction don't raise undead like Vampire Counts. Arzhag the first LL is only a warrior vampire commander. Their zombies awaken more like a soul malefice epidemy.
    Yeah the different Vampire Counts certainly use different roosters.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,727

    Equix said:

    Equix said:

    Dogs of War had official rulebook, and before having more undead I expect alive human to come first: Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes and New Colonies would be the first race DLC.
    Zombie Pirates and Amazons would be FLC, and Tomb Kings the second race paid DLC.

    I want TK but I think having Lizardmen, DE and ratmen does need humans to fight with and borrow from HE the fame of being the punching bag of everyone.

    Zombie Pirates? Sounds like an oxymoron as you need a soul to be a pirate
    Vampire Coast would have 2 vampire LL and very diferent roosters, with zombies and guns. This existed on TT, plays very diferent to Warhamer 1 VC

    Zombie Pirates or Vampire Coast faction don't raise undead like Vampire Counts. Arzhag the first LL is only a warrior vampire commander. Their zombies awaken more like a soul malefice epidemy.
    Yeah the different Vampire Counts certainly use different roosters.
    It really is a terrible sport. I'm not surprised Vampires partake in it. I assume they also run dogfighting rings as well.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,311

    Equix said:

    Equix said:

    Dogs of War had official rulebook, and before having more undead I expect alive human to come first: Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes and New Colonies would be the first race DLC.
    Zombie Pirates and Amazons would be FLC, and Tomb Kings the second race paid DLC.

    I want TK but I think having Lizardmen, DE and ratmen does need humans to fight with and borrow from HE the fame of being the punching bag of everyone.

    Zombie Pirates? Sounds like an oxymoron as you need a soul to be a pirate
    Vampire Coast would have 2 vampire LL and very diferent roosters, with zombies and guns. This existed on TT, plays very diferent to Warhamer 1 VC

    Zombie Pirates or Vampire Coast faction don't raise undead like Vampire Counts. Arzhag the first LL is only a warrior vampire commander. Their zombies awaken more like a soul malefice epidemy.
    Yeah the different Vampire Counts certainly use different roosters.
    Cockadoodledoo!!!!!!!!!!
  • ArstellandaArstellanda Registered Users Posts: 341
    I apologise again for messing up the post, I didn't intend to release it with just a few lines, I mistakenly clicked enter and it got posted...
  • EquixEquix Registered Users Posts: 1,323
    edited September 2017
    Hey, also I expect Tilea-Estalia and Dogs of War in general to be the first DLC because they fit to have a deeper mechanic on treasure hunting to support their armies economically. That's another reason.

    Zombie Pirates could be a FLC available only for Dogs of War DLC owners. FOR Obvious reasons: its very small faction, without heavy monsters or magic, and its very related to awaked undead from DoW.

    The second paid DLC would be TK for sure.

    The last FLC for warhammer would be Araby is very likely.

    Small FLC/DLC for Halfings, Albion, Amazons ONLY for combined campaign could happen to celebrate a year or something.

    Kislev will be like Norsca for purchasing Warhammer 3.


    new Undead Legion Nagash, The Nameless, Dieter Helsnicht and Undead Hag or Dragon Empress LL (kislev or cathay mortach).

    MONOBLOODLINES:
    /Necrachs:Zacharias, Melkhior, Radu the forsaken
    /Strigoi:Ushoran, Vorag, The Black Prince, Rametep
    /Blood Dragon:Red Duke, Walach Harkon, Abhorash
    /Lahmia:zNeferata, Nitocris, Ulrika, Naaima

    Tomb Kings:
    Apophas
    (Craddles of Serpents (new race)) Ind+Amazons+Kuresh Together
    /Fishmen and Sea ElvesFishmen with a few Sea Elves.
    Ogre Kingdoms with gut magic and a Gnobblar LL
  • DrownedHoundDrownedHound Registered Users Posts: 6,468
    It is a distinct possibility. We know we are getting TKs at this point. Araby seems pretty likely as well. DoW/Tilea/Estalia seems likely after those two. The only other likely faction is Zombie Pirates after them.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,311
    Equix, you have some very strange tastes.
  • madskittlsmadskittls Registered Users Posts: 294
    Okay so what do you think if they did something completely different for Tilea and Estalia?
    My limited knowledge of the lore is that neither really relied on standing armies, but more on being rich and hiring mercenaries. So my thought is what if their game was totally different and instead of recruiting regular human armies, what if instead they recruited basic infantry, but could also recruit units from factions they have a defensive pact with. With unit recruitment and upkeep costs increased so they can't go too crazy and make it easier to get into defensive pacts with say Ogre Kingdoms or whoever is used to mercenary work lore-wise...
    Anyway, just a thought, hadn't really thought it totally through. Sounds really unbalanced to me, but wanted to get the idea out.
  • EquixEquix Registered Users Posts: 1,323
    Do you think? I didnt mention my wish of snotlings, gnobblars and estalian/tilean angels

    new Undead Legion Nagash, The Nameless, Dieter Helsnicht and Undead Hag or Dragon Empress LL (kislev or cathay mortach).

    MONOBLOODLINES:
    /Necrachs:Zacharias, Melkhior, Radu the forsaken
    /Strigoi:Ushoran, Vorag, The Black Prince, Rametep
    /Blood Dragon:Red Duke, Walach Harkon, Abhorash
    /Lahmia:zNeferata, Nitocris, Ulrika, Naaima

    Tomb Kings:
    Apophas
    (Craddles of Serpents (new race)) Ind+Amazons+Kuresh Together
    /Fishmen and Sea ElvesFishmen with a few Sea Elves.
    Ogre Kingdoms with gut magic and a Gnobblar LL
  • Mohawk_RoshiMohawk_Roshi Registered Users Posts: 1,764
    Id like to think we could see a pirates mercs and adventurers dlc in the pipeline one that gives one lord a piece to Tilea Estalia the Border Princes and Vampire Coast.
    A WIZARD SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
  • Overlord87Overlord87 Registered Users Posts: 881
    I honestly don't know about Estalia, as it would have to be built almost from scratch. But Tilea I expect to be in, as there was an army book, and has lots of cool units and characters.
  • Mohawk_RoshiMohawk_Roshi Registered Users Posts: 1,764
    No Borgio makes me a Sad Panda fortunately Cataph made a good place holder for him.
    A WIZARD SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,311
    Equix said:

    Do you think? I didnt mention my wish of snotlings, gnobblars and estalian/tilean angels

    Yeah but you were thinkin' it.

    God help me though, I'm with you on snotlings... I want to send pump wagons out in front of da boyz, lol.
  • Coldone666Coldone666 Registered Users Posts: 673
    Tilia/ Estilia aren't getting faction DLC, and it certainly won't be the 1st DLC.

    They are just filler factions that aren't important, they didn't even have an army book and barely any lore.

    They aren't popular factions anyway and the DLC sales would be very poor.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 6,411
    DoW have a good chance and don't be surprised if they become the national armies for Tilia/Estilia
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,311
    I'm pretty sure Tilea and Estalia will be made playable, actually. Along with Kislev.

    Norsca added some stuff in case you missed it:

    Kislev got a whole new set of voice acting, Tilea is mentioned specifically in Norsca tech tree and the tech is meant to counter heavy crossbow usage, there were a number of Estalia and Tilea specific followers added that you can obtain by winning battles in Tilea and Estalia (they only buff Empire right now, tho), Tilean/Estalian AI has been tweaked over the last few patches.

    Also... they've got more new world presence than the Empire and are closer to the Tomb Kings and what not for when the mega campaign hits. Their is also possible skaven stuff down there for the mega campaign.

    So honestly things for them are ramping up. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see a FLC or even a DLC pop out Estalia/Tilea. Pretty sure we'd have to pay for Kislev though. CA knows how bad everyone wants it.

    Dogs of War are basically the rogue armies from WH2, by the way. A mishmash of units taken from all over the place. Tilea and Estalia *do* have standing forces but they do rely heavily on mercenaries (DoW) too. Honestly I would expect Tilea and Estalia to get a modified empire roster with DoW as their ROR. Mmmm acronym soup.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,727
    Since TEB have pretty much no monsters or the like I'd think the DoW would end up being their higher end/specialist units. Their mainline units would be pike and shot and then their higher units would be DoW. Maybe then giving them some sort of mercenary mechanic, like intervention style armies they can hire at any time or something, would then show off their mercenary side more.

    I just would not see TEB and DoW separately or the DoW units being completely new units animated and then only used for 1 per faction as RoR.

    I'm all for this, but I still stand against one thing and always will: Men attached to kites.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • ArstellandaArstellanda Registered Users Posts: 341
    Well, I do not expect all I said to be what gets introduced in the game, though I thought that seeing something like this would still be pretty nice and close to the lore anyway since all the city states did try to invade each other, it's just that they never really managed to do it fully.

    However, I still think they do need a major rework to fully be fleshed out, especially their regions need to see some major rework to make it so that there are more provinces in the form of other factions, again in a similar way to the Wood Elves with the exception that a confederation is off the table.
  • GCRustGCRust Registered Users Posts: 604
    Easy means of using DoW mercenary mechanic - allow them access to the local unit pool in a foreign province to recruit from.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,988
    Equix said:

    Hey, also I expect Tilea-Estalia and Dogs of War in general to be the first DLC because they fit to have a deeper mechanic on treasure hunting to support their armies economically. That's another reason.

    Zombie Pirates could be a FLC available only for Dogs of War DLC owners. FOR Obvious reasons: its very small faction, without heavy monsters or magic, and its very related to awaked undead from DoW.

    The second paid DLC would be TK for sure.

    The last FLC for warhammer would be Araby is very likely.

    Small FLC/DLC for Halfings, Albion, Amazons ONLY for combined campaign could happen to celebrate a year or something.

    Kislev will be like Norsca for purchasing Warhammer 3.

    Halflings are really only going to be units for DoW and the Empire(Stirland) because they aren't their own faction and they are primarily in the Moot so they come under the Empire instead of independent.

    The main issue with Amazons comes with their Island not being on the map at all especially since CA didn't want to put Place Holders like Tilea/Estalia had with Empire Soldiers so if they had plans for the Amazons they would have put their Island in and just left it as a ruin.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Registered Users Posts: 4,310
    edited September 2017
    What if instead of making them a faction in the traditional sense, they focused more on the Dogs of War aspect? In fact, make the Dogs of War a horde faction, starting in Tilea, and the whole point of your campaign is to reach a certain level of renown or reputation (kinda like Bretonnian Chivalry or Norscan Gods). You earn it by accepting contracts from other factions to fight their enemies in a sort of Book of Grudges/Monstrous Arcanum sort of way. Dunno, I think it'd be cool.

    Edit: I like this idea so much, I made a thread about it
  • SchusselSchussel Registered Users Posts: 826
    edited September 2017
    For me its absolutly fine to have an not playable "Empire" Faction as Conquistadores, and a not playable "Bretonian" Faction as Crusaders in WH2

    There is no need to create an extra Tilea/Estalia Rooster just to exchange not playable Factions.

    And even If CA turns these factions into playable factions the main question wouldn't be
    create Estalia/Tilea to exchange them but how do they fit into the Vortex Campaign?

    I mean the whole game is created around that Vortex Campaign so it would be strange to create a playable Faction that is not involved intot that Campaign at all.

    Post edited by Schussel on
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 4,753
    Schussel said:

    For me its absolutly fine to have an not playable "Empire" Faction as Conquistadores, and a not playable "Bretonian" Faction as Crusaders in WH2

    There is no need to create an extra Tilea/Estalia Rooster just to exchange not playable Factions.

    And even If CA turns these factions into playable factions the main question wouldn't be
    create Estalia/Tilea to exchange them but how do they fit into the Vortex Campaign?

    I mean the whole game is created around that Vortex Campaign so it would be strange to create a playable Faction that is not involved intot that Campaign at all.


    The vortex campaign limitations make a lot of sense here. Not only is Tilea and Estalia an incredibly minor faction in the grand scheme of things....like somehow smaller then Amazons who at least got a blood bowl appearence....but they have no place in the vortex campaign outside of the conquistador feel. Which in this campaign just puts you in the way.

    However TK have an obvious link. No way would Nagash, Arkhan, or even Settra let this one slide past them. Definitly the first faction to be released. Wouldnt be surprised nor upset if they were the only additional faction released. Araby, arguably, would make for the most convincing and unique minor faction. And even then only barely.
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 5,032
    We'll see how it unfolds, for now the Tomb Kings are the biggest contender, with Araby way behind them but still within the picture.

    Nothing seems to indicate some Southern Realms coming up anytime soon.
  • SchusselSchussel Registered Users Posts: 826
    edited September 2017
    It will be really really crowded in the southlands when CA keeps the "2 Factions for each Race" and they add TK and Araby
  • obippoobippo Member Registered Users Posts: 2,647
    edited September 2017
    Ca already stated that some dlc races won't have to interact with the vortex like the base ones so it's a non-issue.
    Always be aware when a Content Refusing Troll Brigade (CRTB) representative is near. Contact your local Witch Hunter for further info.


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