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Morathi Chaos Corruption (Facepalm) Why not? What else if not?

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  • Learn2EelLearn2Eel Posts: 137Registered Users
    edited October 2017
    1v0 said:

    Maybe now they want slaanesh back , but you can't deny that they possibly removed Slaanesh to start with exactly for reason I said ... (just a lot of companies have been trying to go for the wider audience and ... they destroy their franchises this way ...)

    Also sorry I don't follow AOS excuse my ignorance . Uhhhh GW just makes some really bad choices , to tell the truth I would not be surprised to see the comeback of Warhammer fantasy , because TW:W got really popular .

    As for the post yea we are getting really off the point so I will stop here ...

    Wrong. Slaanesh's disappearance was a story-line hook from Day 1 that was established in the first campaign book. They've been slowly building to that and the Aelves for over 2 years. People just assumed the disappearance was evidence of them removing Slaanesh for "PG reasons" even though they've released half naked models since then. Case in point, Drycha Hamadreth has exposed breasts and she came out within a year of AoS dropping, meaning her model was planned out before AoS dropped.

    The other thing is that people looked at the new Archaon model having Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle heads (on Dorghar) as evidence of their theory even though that too was explained in the lore. Let's not forget Slaanesh symbols were still visible on both the Archaon model and his box.

    Lastly, the reason most understood Slaanesh wasn't disappearing was his integral status to 40k. Ynnead returning last year in that Deathwatch campaign box was also suppossed to signal the end of Slaanesh according to those people pushing the "disappearing Slaanesh" narrative, even though we know for a fact that *the* Slaanesh-worshipping 40k army is coming in the next few years (Emperors' Children).

    Also, as much as a lot of people don't like AoS (I preferred WHFB myself) it's been proven that it has reinvigorated sales of the WHFB model ranges and is outselling it quite dramatically to the point that it temporarily overtook 40k down here in Australia. GW would be smart to support WHFB indirectly but sadly their new game is outselling their old one so in their minds it's unnecessary.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    Idiotproofninja's Workshop
    Released No Corruption from Morathi when confederating as Malekith.
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1158792601
  • cat59cat59 Posts: 453Registered Users

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    Atharthi is a goddess of seduction and pleasure and is a patron of spies while Slaanesh has a wider focus and feeds of every type of excessive emotion. She has about as much distinction with the Chaos gods as many a number of gods in the warhammer world
    And the appetites of the Dark Elves encompass everything that Slaanesh is about. They thrive on inflicting pain and torture people as a pastime. They pursue every kind of hedonistic experience there is, the more depraved the better. But all that was probably toned down with the retcon to prepare for AoS.

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    "Khorne cares not from where blood flows and skulls are sacrificed so long as it is done in his name. "
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Khorne

    If Atharti is aSlaanesh stand in one can easily argue that Kahine also is just a Khorne stand-in. Adjusted to be more fitting to the DEs backstabby ways
    This is exactly the kind of thing that distinguishes one god from another. They might be broadly similar, but one is more fitting to a culture than another is. That doesn't imply that gods are all mutually exclusive, but it doesn't make every war god Khorne either.

    So, now you're arguing that Khaine isn't Khorne, after implying, or saying the exact opposite?

    Khaine and Khorne have similarities, same with Atharti and Slaanesh, so I guess that makes every god that deals with pleasure, craftsmanship, or even just eating, Slaanesh, while *ANY* god that has to do with fighting, death, blood, or killing, is just Khorne.

    This is your argument, that you keep using. You cannot pick and choose these things after the fact, especially something like this. You say Atharti and Slaanesh are too similar, because they exist in relatively similar domains? Alright then, Khaine and Khorne are the same then, since they exist in the same domain, they're even spelled highly similar as well.

    Stop this madness, please. I think it's very clear you just want Morathi to remain a Slaanesh worshipper/slave because you prefer 6th edition. Either for nostalgia, or just because *YOU* think it's better, and that's fine. Some people here, however, prefer the additional work GW's writers did, actually fleshing out the Elven pantheon further than just 'Evil Elves worship Khaine (Not Khorne-lite, I *swear*) and Slaanesh!', and that's perfectly alright as well.

    The fact remains, however, that regardless of if you like the mechanic or not, it is extremely inelegantly designed, and as a 'unique' faction 'benefit', it offers little to no difference to Malekith's campaign. Start position? Sure, I can see that. Starting skills/army/Lord composition? Yeah, makes sense too. But the reason to pick Morathi over Malekith just being something as bland, boring, and basic as 'Spreads Chaos.....lulz' is not enough to add flavour for her faction, or to represent her personality as the first sorceress, and one of the most adept magical casters currently represented. (Ignoring her selection of spells/casting potential in game, as that can all be swapped around with mods, I believe, and just talking about her perceived power level and what it *should* be at.)

    Instead of something new, unique, or innovative, we get yet another faction with copy/pasted Chaos corruption spreading, seemingly as an afterthought, as her faction doesn't get any real benefit from spreading said corruption, other than public order penalties when it's too low.
  • CaptainSensibleCaptainSensible Junior Member Posts: 105Registered Users
    cat59 said:

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    Atharthi is a goddess of seduction and pleasure and is a patron of spies while Slaanesh has a wider focus and feeds of every type of excessive emotion. She has about as much distinction with the Chaos gods as many a number of gods in the warhammer world
    And the appetites of the Dark Elves encompass everything that Slaanesh is about. They thrive on inflicting pain and torture people as a pastime. They pursue every kind of hedonistic experience there is, the more depraved the better. But all that was probably toned down with the retcon to prepare for AoS.

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    "Khorne cares not from where blood flows and skulls are sacrificed so long as it is done in his name. "
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Khorne

    If Atharti is aSlaanesh stand in one can easily argue that Kahine also is just a Khorne stand-in. Adjusted to be more fitting to the DEs backstabby ways
    This is exactly the kind of thing that distinguishes one god from another. They might be broadly similar, but one is more fitting to a culture than another is. That doesn't imply that gods are all mutually exclusive, but it doesn't make every war god Khorne either.

    So, now you're arguing that Khaine isn't Khorne, after implying, or saying the exact opposite?

    Khaine and Khorne have similarities, same with Atharti and Slaanesh, so I guess that makes every god that deals with pleasure, craftsmanship, or even just eating, Slaanesh, while *ANY* god that has to do with fighting, death, blood, or killing, is just Khorne.

    This is your argument, that you keep using. You cannot pick and choose these things after the fact, especially something like this. You say Atharti and Slaanesh are too similar, because they exist in relatively similar domains? Alright then, Khaine and Khorne are the same then, since they exist in the same domain, they're even spelled highly similar as well.
    Speaking of picking and choosing arguments, you are forgetting that essential detail that Slaanesh was retconned out and Khaine wasn't. One was part of the picture from the beginning, only to be awkwardly excised, and another is and was an essential and unique feature of DE society. I guess you also didn't read the arguments that Khaine is distinct from Khorne; even the wiki page that people were throwing around defines him as the god of "war, honor, courage, and rage."

    The problem is not that anyone is trying too hard to give elves their own gods, it's that they aren't actually trying at all. Removing Slaanesh and replacing it with a watered-down deity of pleasure failed to fill in the hole they'd created without decent justification. You accuse me of being biased towards 6th edition, but why do you like 7th? Do you believe that GW can do no wrong? Or perhaps do you just have biases of your own?
  • cat59cat59 Posts: 453Registered Users

    cat59 said:

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    Atharthi is a goddess of seduction and pleasure and is a patron of spies while Slaanesh has a wider focus and feeds of every type of excessive emotion. She has about as much distinction with the Chaos gods as many a number of gods in the warhammer world
    And the appetites of the Dark Elves encompass everything that Slaanesh is about. They thrive on inflicting pain and torture people as a pastime. They pursue every kind of hedonistic experience there is, the more depraved the better. But all that was probably toned down with the retcon to prepare for AoS.

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    "Khorne cares not from where blood flows and skulls are sacrificed so long as it is done in his name. "
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Khorne

    If Atharti is aSlaanesh stand in one can easily argue that Kahine also is just a Khorne stand-in. Adjusted to be more fitting to the DEs backstabby ways
    This is exactly the kind of thing that distinguishes one god from another. They might be broadly similar, but one is more fitting to a culture than another is. That doesn't imply that gods are all mutually exclusive, but it doesn't make every war god Khorne either.

    So, now you're arguing that Khaine isn't Khorne, after implying, or saying the exact opposite?

    Khaine and Khorne have similarities, same with Atharti and Slaanesh, so I guess that makes every god that deals with pleasure, craftsmanship, or even just eating, Slaanesh, while *ANY* god that has to do with fighting, death, blood, or killing, is just Khorne.

    This is your argument, that you keep using. You cannot pick and choose these things after the fact, especially something like this. You say Atharti and Slaanesh are too similar, because they exist in relatively similar domains? Alright then, Khaine and Khorne are the same then, since they exist in the same domain, they're even spelled highly similar as well.
    Speaking of picking and choosing arguments, you are forgetting that essential detail that Slaanesh was retconned out and Khaine wasn't. One was part of the picture from the beginning, only to be awkwardly excised, and another is and was an essential and unique feature of DE society. I guess you also didn't read the arguments that Khaine is distinct from Khorne; even the wiki page that people were throwing around defines him as the god of "war, honor, courage, and rage."

    The problem is not that anyone is trying too hard to give elves their own gods, it's that they aren't actually trying at all. Removing Slaanesh and replacing it with a watered-down deity of pleasure failed to fill in the hole they'd created without decent justification. You accuse me of being biased towards 6th edition, but why do you like 7th? Do you believe that GW can do no wrong? Or perhaps do you just have biases of your own?
    First of all, yes hi.

    Second of all, I never played any of the TT editions, and I don't have any of the armybooks. All I know is what people have said, and the tiny amount of information I've been able to glean from online sources about said armybooks.

    I have no bias towards any edition in particular, as I wasn't made truly aware of them until recently. My understanding of the DE comes from books and written out lore, rather than armybooks. Whether those few books I've read are 7th, 8th or whatever edition, I don't know. All I know, is that I liked the version of the DE that I read, and it made natural sense to me that they'd have their own pantheon, rather then just be half Chaos slaves.

    And yes, I do have bias. I would be an outright liar if I said otherwise, and indeed, I believe everyone else would too. Even if our bias is internal and subconscious, we all have some amount of it that tints and flavours our view on things/the world, and that is perfectly fine, so long as you don't let it control you/take over your reasoning/line of thought.

    I believe GW can do plenty of wrong, just like CA, just like you, and just like me. We are all flawed organisms, and no one can ever be perfect, no matter how much it seems like they are.

    Now that we've gotten that nonsense out of the way.

    Khaine, lord of murder and god of bloodshed.

    Khorne, lord of battle, the blood god, lord of skulls, god of murder.

    Khorne domains. Hate, Anger, Rage, War, Killing.

    Khaine domains. Violence, War, Cruelty, Blood, Murder.

    Sounds very similar to me, honestly.

    The difference between them, is actually quite a simple one, and one explained if you try to look at it from an Elven perspective.

    Khaine is different to Khorne by a difference of degrees, meaning severity. Khaine is one of practiced, controlled murder and killing, while Khorne is uncontrolled savagery, similar to a comparing a rabid dog to a tamed warhound.

    This argument has been done before, however, but saying that Atharti is just Slaanesh because they are similar, is admitting that Khaine is just Khorne, because they are extremely similar as well.

    You cannot pick and choose with this, Da'len, so don't even try.

    And if I'm not mistaken, Slaanesh wasn't completely wiped out of *every* armybook in 7-8th edition, just because the Dark Elves got their own deity. It would've still been an option for Chaos armies to choose from, and you still had Daemons of Slaanesh, they just completed the Elven pantheon by adding in darker gods to reflect darker emotions, like every religion tends to have.

    I'm sorry if the way they went from the storm of chaos onwards displeased you, but that's how it went, and how 8th edition is, which is the most recent edition, and what they should have stuck with, if they were going to be using 8th for *LITERALLY* everything other than Morathi.
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,345Registered Users
    edited October 2017

    cat59 said:

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    Atharthi is a goddess of seduction and pleasure and is a patron of spies while Slaanesh has a wider focus and feeds of every type of excessive emotion. She has about as much distinction with the Chaos gods as many a number of gods in the warhammer world
    And the appetites of the Dark Elves encompass everything that Slaanesh is about. They thrive on inflicting pain and torture people as a pastime. They pursue every kind of hedonistic experience there is, the more depraved the better. But all that was probably toned down with the retcon to prepare for AoS.

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    "Khorne cares not from where blood flows and skulls are sacrificed so long as it is done in his name. "
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Khorne

    If Atharti is aSlaanesh stand in one can easily argue that Kahine also is just a Khorne stand-in. Adjusted to be more fitting to the DEs backstabby ways
    This is exactly the kind of thing that distinguishes one god from another. They might be broadly similar, but one is more fitting to a culture than another is. That doesn't imply that gods are all mutually exclusive, but it doesn't make every war god Khorne either.

    So, now you're arguing that Khaine isn't Khorne, after implying, or saying the exact opposite?

    Khaine and Khorne have similarities, same with Atharti and Slaanesh, so I guess that makes every god that deals with pleasure, craftsmanship, or even just eating, Slaanesh, while *ANY* god that has to do with fighting, death, blood, or killing, is just Khorne.

    This is your argument, that you keep using. You cannot pick and choose these things after the fact, especially something like this. You say Atharti and Slaanesh are too similar, because they exist in relatively similar domains? Alright then, Khaine and Khorne are the same then, since they exist in the same domain, they're even spelled highly similar as well.
    Speaking of picking and choosing arguments, you are forgetting that essential detail that Slaanesh was retconned out and Khaine wasn't. One was part of the picture from the beginning, only to be awkwardly excised, and another is and was an essential and unique feature of DE society. I guess you also didn't read the arguments that Khaine is distinct from Khorne; even the wiki page that people were throwing around defines him as the god of "war, honor, courage, and rage."

    The problem is not that anyone is trying too hard to give elves their own gods, it's that they aren't actually trying at all. Removing Slaanesh and replacing it with a watered-down deity of pleasure failed to fill in the hole they'd created without decent justification. You accuse me of being biased towards 6th edition, but why do you like 7th? Do you believe that GW can do no wrong? Or perhaps do you just have biases of your own?
    I would just like to point out that if we are going to go off of the watered down god to give more gods arguement this is even the case for Khaine who was actually defined as Khorne in earlier editions. If it worked for Khaine why not for Atharti and Hekarti?

    Warhammer Fantasy Battle 4th Edition Battle Bestiery, page 56: "The wildest of all are the Witch Elves - a warrior sisterhood devoted to the Chaos God Khorne who they call Khaine Lord of Murder."

    I don't see why one is considered a great move and the other not when it was GW doing the same thing they had done previous while trying to flesh out the society of the Elves like they had done with the western human nations with their gods in the past. To get riled up over Atharti and declare she is a watered down Slannesh while saying Khaine is not is just not knowing the history of the evolution of the game itself. Either Khaine is Khorne in disguise and Atharti is Slannesh or Khaine and Atharti are their own entities (who in the current lore the Elves interacted with under the gaze of the Old Ones prior to the collapse of the Gates and didn't get punished for it).

    /rant
    Post edited by Erminaz on
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 8,940Registered Users
    1v0 said:

    and they look different like they are corrupted (dark/white hair and darker skin) . .

    as far as I know, they actually should have a LIGHTER Skin tone thant he High Elves, because they live where the sun never barely shines
    Every wrong is recorded! Every slight against us! Page after Page, etched in blood! Clan Gunnison! Karak Eight-Peaks! Josef Bugman!

    Yes! to Boris Todbringer as playable, subfaction leading Legendary Lord with Starting Position Middenheim instead for the Empire! NO to the lazy way of moving Gelt and Volkmar who both belong to Reikland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • MGiMGi Posts: 13Registered Users
    edited October 2017
    Dark Elves believing in Chaos gods is not a bit off but completely inticlimatic. In almost every fantasy world elves have their own gods and in Warhammer the armies of chaos consist only of Chaos dwarves and Chaos human, not ever did they showcase Chaos elves. Their army and theme look nothing like that of the Dark elves. Yes i know the lore from pre 7th edition mentioned their connection to chaos. But it wasn't a good idea to simply mix the lore from past and new editions especially those contradicting eachother. TWWH wasn't prepared for Dark elves being chaos and it looks off, lazy, unfinished and no old book lore can justify this awful game decision.
  • endurendur Posts: 2,918Registered Users
    Erminaz said:

    I did try and confederate with her, after doing so I saw how bad her skills had been assigned, how trashed and spread out her armies were (and now taking attrition as they are now part of Malekith's faction and forgot how to resist the corruption) and decided to roll the campaign back 5 turns (to my last manual save) while just leaving her to rot instead. I saw no benefit to dealing with the headache of waiting for the corruption to dissipate and attempting to salvage what pathetic and broken forces she had scattered around. Also with Mazdamundi running around in her lands and all the armies suffering from attrition outside of the towns now (most of which were in bad shape from being looted or recently rebuilt or retaken as I won't help her) it just wasn't going to be my brand of fun to salvage her territory. In fact I have some forces I'm prepared to divert to deal with Mazdamundi if he actually finishes her off and to take them back after he as dealt with the corruption.

    AI powers that confederate with you are often in a state of complete disarray, that's why they want to confederate. :)

    I happily accept the confederation and send my armies in to save the day. So long as Morathi hasn't lost her capital, the unique building in the capital will handle any public order issues from the corruption. With 40 skill points, it really doesn't matter what the AI spent 8 or 10 points on. And I like the new skill trees, so I really don't see any of the trees as useless.

    With the new immortal lords/heroes feature at level 20, confederating additional LLs isn't as important as it was in TWW1 as you don't have to worry about losing your level 20+ lords/heroes to an assassin. There are still some faction wide benefits to having Morathi though (better Sorceresses, etc.).




  • MGiMGi Posts: 13Registered Users
    endur said:

    Erminaz said:

    I did try and confederate with her, after doing so I saw how bad her skills had been assigned, how trashed and spread out her armies were (and now taking attrition as they are now part of Malekith's faction and forgot how to resist the corruption) and decided to roll the campaign back 5 turns (to my last manual save) while just leaving her to rot instead. I saw no benefit to dealing with the headache of waiting for the corruption to dissipate and attempting to salvage what pathetic and broken forces she had scattered around. Also with Mazdamundi running around in her lands and all the armies suffering from attrition outside of the towns now (most of which were in bad shape from being looted or recently rebuilt or retaken as I won't help her) it just wasn't going to be my brand of fun to salvage her territory. In fact I have some forces I'm prepared to divert to deal with Mazdamundi if he actually finishes her off and to take them back after he as dealt with the corruption.

    AI powers that confederate with you are often in a state of complete disarray, that's why they want to confederate. :)

    I happily accept the confederation and send my armies in to save the day. So long as Morathi hasn't lost her capital, the unique building in the capital will handle any public order issues from the corruption. With 40 skill points, it really doesn't matter what the AI spent 8 or 10 points on. And I like the new skill trees, so I really don't see any of the trees as useless.

    With the new immortal lords/heroes feature at level 20, confederating additional LLs isn't as important as it was in TWW1 as you don't have to worry about losing your level 20+ lords/heroes to an assassin. There are still some faction wide benefits to having Morathi though (better Sorceresses, etc.).
    1. If you pay enough money, they can even have a higher power rank and still confederate with you
    2. The corruption in main provinces isn't an issue, however you have to waste building slots in order to keep public order high in lesser provinces
    3. Morathi is a weak addition to Malekith's forces and the only reason i would take her is because i like immersion and lore. Otherwise if i was powergaming i would just kill her off.
    4. Due to the high requirements of confederating with her (200 000+ gold), I wish she would bring something useful to the table. Malekith's talent's are freaking OP, and Morathi's are so underwhelming in comparison, its just better to get a Dreadlord with a name of power.
    5. "Better Sorceresses xD" hahaha good one, like Malekith needs any better sorceresses. That's maybe a 0.0001% increase in power.
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 9,544Registered Users
    Erminaz said:

    cat59 said:

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    Atharthi is a goddess of seduction and pleasure and is a patron of spies while Slaanesh has a wider focus and feeds of every type of excessive emotion. She has about as much distinction with the Chaos gods as many a number of gods in the warhammer world
    And the appetites of the Dark Elves encompass everything that Slaanesh is about. They thrive on inflicting pain and torture people as a pastime. They pursue every kind of hedonistic experience there is, the more depraved the better. But all that was probably toned down with the retcon to prepare for AoS.

    mkaluza said:

    Where do people get from that she does not worship the dark gods?
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Morathi
    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morathi

    Also i did not mind the corruption penalty at all.

    It was retconned out in their 7th edition army book, and Slaanesh was replaced with a new goddess named Zlaanesh Atharti and it was decided that the Dark Elves would have nothing to with Chaos ever. Never mind everything you heard about pacts with daemons and the ruinous powers everywhere else in the lore, it was all really Atharti and/or Khaine.
    The pacts with demons are still in the lore she just isn't a worshiper/follower of Slaaneshi and the cults are not of it.I find it really fascinating how people have a problem with "Slaanesh lite" but are totally fine with Khorne lite in the face of Khaine and Nurgle lite as one of the aspects of the Horned Rat
    Khaine isn't "Khorne-lite", they are distinct. One is a god of martial prowess and combat, the other is a god of death and murder. You will never ever see an assassin of Khorne. Khaine doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as he gets it. Khorne is a warrior god who favors face-to-face combat.

    Atharti on the other hand just is a stand-in for Slaanesh. There really isn't anything that makes her distinct or fit DE society any better, other than just not being Chaos.

    As for the Horned Rat, I don't think it really makes sense either that he's distinct from Nurgle, but that's another discussion.
    "Khorne cares not from where blood flows and skulls are sacrificed so long as it is done in his name. "
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Khorne

    If Atharti is aSlaanesh stand in one can easily argue that Kahine also is just a Khorne stand-in. Adjusted to be more fitting to the DEs backstabby ways
    This is exactly the kind of thing that distinguishes one god from another. They might be broadly similar, but one is more fitting to a culture than another is. That doesn't imply that gods are all mutually exclusive, but it doesn't make every war god Khorne either.

    So, now you're arguing that Khaine isn't Khorne, after implying, or saying the exact opposite?

    Khaine and Khorne have similarities, same with Atharti and Slaanesh, so I guess that makes every god that deals with pleasure, craftsmanship, or even just eating, Slaanesh, while *ANY* god that has to do with fighting, death, blood, or killing, is just Khorne.

    This is your argument, that you keep using. You cannot pick and choose these things after the fact, especially something like this. You say Atharti and Slaanesh are too similar, because they exist in relatively similar domains? Alright then, Khaine and Khorne are the same then, since they exist in the same domain, they're even spelled highly similar as well.
    Speaking of picking and choosing arguments, you are forgetting that essential detail that Slaanesh was retconned out and Khaine wasn't. One was part of the picture from the beginning, only to be awkwardly excised, and another is and was an essential and unique feature of DE society. I guess you also didn't read the arguments that Khaine is distinct from Khorne; even the wiki page that people were throwing around defines him as the god of "war, honor, courage, and rage."

    The problem is not that anyone is trying too hard to give elves their own gods, it's that they aren't actually trying at all. Removing Slaanesh and replacing it with a watered-down deity of pleasure failed to fill in the hole they'd created without decent justification. You accuse me of being biased towards 6th edition, but why do you like 7th? Do you believe that GW can do no wrong? Or perhaps do you just have biases of your own?
    I would just like to point out that if we are going to go off of the watered down god to give more gods arguement this is even the case for Khaine who was actually defined as Khorne in earlier editions. If it worked for Khaine why not for Atharti and Hekarti?

    Warhammer Fantasy Battle 4th Edition Battle Bestiery, page 56: "The wildest of all are the Witch Elves - a warrior sisterhood devoted to the Chaos God Khorne who they call Khaine Lord of Murder."

    I don't see why one is considered a great move and the other not when it was GW doing the same thing they had done previous while trying to flesh out the society of the Elves like they had done with the western human nations with their gods in the past. To get riled up over Atharti and declare she is a watered down Slannesh while saying Khorne is not is just not knowing the history of the evolution of the game itself. Either Khaine is Khorne in disguise and Atharti is Slannesh or Khaine and Atharti are their own entities (who in the current lore the Elves interacted with under the gaze of the Old Ones prior to the collapse of the Gates and didn't get punished for it).

    /rant
    Yes Khaine and Atharti are working on the same principle, and those changes had started with Khaine. The main problem with what CA had done is the inconsistency.
    4 Fully Independent Monogods Armies would be great for a Storyline about the Great Game in Total War: Warhammer 3.
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,345Registered Users
    edited October 2017
    endur said:

    Erminaz said:

    I did try and confederate with her, after doing so I saw how bad her skills had been assigned, how trashed and spread out her armies were (and now taking attrition as they are now part of Malekith's faction and forgot how to resist the corruption) and decided to roll the campaign back 5 turns (to my last manual save) while just leaving her to rot instead. I saw no benefit to dealing with the headache of waiting for the corruption to dissipate and attempting to salvage what pathetic and broken forces she had scattered around. Also with Mazdamundi running around in her lands and all the armies suffering from attrition outside of the towns now (most of which were in bad shape from being looted or recently rebuilt or retaken as I won't help her) it just wasn't going to be my brand of fun to salvage her territory. In fact I have some forces I'm prepared to divert to deal with Mazdamundi if he actually finishes her off and to take them back after he as dealt with the corruption.

    AI powers that confederate with you are often in a state of complete disarray, that's why they want to confederate. :)

    I happily accept the confederation and send my armies in to save the day. So long as Morathi hasn't lost her capital, the unique building in the capital will handle any public order issues from the corruption. With 40 skill points, it really doesn't matter what the AI spent 8 or 10 points on. And I like the new skill trees, so I really don't see any of the trees as useless.

    With the new immortal lords/heroes feature at level 20, confederating additional LLs isn't as important as it was in TWW1 as you don't have to worry about losing your level 20+ lords/heroes to an assassin. There are still some faction wide benefits to having Morathi though (better Sorceresses, etc.).

    Yeah the complaint wasn't so much about the disarray of her lands but the disarray coupled with chaos corruption's attrition and the pain in the ass of moving armies around that are taking damage from it (even getting them back to the settlements to replenish was going to take a turn in the corruption at forced march to reach and I was looking at just disbanding all the forces inherited through confederation which would have given Mazdamundi more free reign to smash more under developed settlements). Moving them in raid stance would invoke the spawning of Chaos Warriors while waiting for them to build up and thus slow down the armies movement by quite a bit. Like I said, I felt it was more trouble than it was worth (replaying 5 turns was far less trouble to me).

    I don't remember, nor see, mentioning a complaint about public order in the post as being part of my decision to reload and not confederate. I mention armies taking attrition as the cause of the situation being more of a pain in the ass to deal with the disorder not issues of public order from the chaos corruption. I will add into the discussion that her capital was the only settlement she still had that was above level 3 (it was actually maxed) but she had only one level 3 settlement and the others were all level 1 so I couldn't even really rely on garrisons to assist in defense for most of the places. Her armies were all at about 33% health (with only 3 or 4 units each) and taking attrition, many were to far away from settlements to make it in one turn without taking attrition from chaos corruption (as they are no longer able to resist the corruption because they now are part of Faction Malekith).

    As for Morathi, she still spreads chaos corruption, had 14 points that had been assigned to thing I would never have put points into personally (okay this isn't really true as she did assign one point to her mount and I would have gotten that). She didn't have a single point assigned to her spells by the way. I didn't see any reason to keep her when I would have just be banging her head against level 20+ Lizardman lords to gain new levels in an attempt to salvage her. As for the boost to sorceresses I didn't really care, Malekith never felt weak to me in the spell casting department and my armies with a Sorceress didn't seem to need any boosts to be useful. So I said to hell with her, let her rot in the hellscape of her own creation as I won't waste resources marching through it until it dissipates just to save a handful of shacks and have another Legendary Lord that is more trouble to deal with at that stage of the game then it is worth.

    Edited for noticed grammar and a bit of rephrasing to make it more understandable.
    Post edited by Erminaz on
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • GwardinenGwardinen Posts: 3Registered Users
    If this is still bothering anyone, I made a mod to remove Chaos corruption from the Cult of Pleasure. I primarily intended it for making coop with other Dark Elves easier, but you can use it however you like: Cult of Pleasure (Morathi) Untainted
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