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Shades Chameleons and Runners

SeldkamSeldkam Senior MemberPosts: 3,567Registered Users
High elves don't have shadow warriors yet but I think these skirmishers deserve their own thread tbh.

It seems so far that Skaven and lizard skirmishing is vastly Superior to elven which is really really weird. Shades at 900-1200 are pretty costly while Chameleons at 600 are a no brainier...
The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
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Comments

  • TristanbesteverTristanbestever Posts: 38Registered Users
    You are right and where arer the shadow warrior and why got we less unit on start of the game since the first has?
  • TristanbesteverTristanbestever Posts: 38Registered Users
    You are right and where arer the shadow warrior and why got we less unit on start of the game since the first has?
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 2,184Registered Users
    shades are amazing ,dude just protect them from cav and watch enemy anything melt

    Balance Is A Lie

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users
    Maybe should not use gw version, I remember the regular ones worked much better
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • krunshkrunsh Senior Member Posts: 3,082Registered Users
    Shades are pretty great. So are runners and skinks.
    i5-3550 CPU @ 3.30GHz
    Geforce gtx 970
    16gb ram

    Team Skaven
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 1,795Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    High elves don't have shadow warriors yet but I think these skirmishers deserve their own thread tbh.

    It seems so far that Skaven and lizard skirmishing is vastly Superior to elven which is really really weird. Shades at 900-1200 are pretty costly while Chameleons at 600 are a no brainier...

    Chamelon skinks are a utility unit that does mediocre damage at range and are also poor in melee.

    Shades do devestating damage at range and are excellent in melee. They're not really the same thing.
  • InfletoInfleto Member Posts: 173Registered Users
    edited October 11
    Shades can 1v1 equal cost Melee anti infantry units and come out ahead. They just need to get in 4 volleys in before they go into melee
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users
    I still think the 1200 cost shades are very hard to use well but that might just be me. I agree 900 regular shades are good.

    I just didn't like (don't like) how easy it is for the other factions to bring in a very heavy skirmish build without getting punished heavily
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 3,071Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    I still think the 1200 cost shades are very hard to use well but that might just be me. I agree 900 regular shades are good.

    I just didn't like (don't like) how easy it is for the other factions to bring in a very heavy skirmish build without getting punished heavily

    Hey at least we have a system for caps now.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 261Registered Users
    You can definitely punish skirmish-heavy builds; just zone the skirmishers out with cheap shielded infantry and kill everything else. Skirmish infantry can't control what exactly they get to put damage on very well, so push out your Clanrats/Dreadspears/Spearmen/Skink Cohorts to take the missiles while you crush the rest of the army, then the skirmishers are left facing a fight they can't possibly win with low ammo remaining and usually the player quits.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users
    Bringing all dreadspears is a terrible, terrible tactic against any other lizard build. This shouldn't be hard to understand considering the power of saurus warriors ...

    Bringing a specific counter build to counter 1 other build that loses to all the others isn't worth it.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 261Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Bringing all dreadspears is a terrible, terrible tactic against any other lizard build. This shouldn't be hard to understand considering the power of saurus warriors ...

    Bringing a specific counter build to counter 1 other build that loses to all the others isn't worth it.


    I didn't say bring all Dreadspears, but if you're fighting a faction that has both large creatures and decent skirmishers available - which is to say any faction in the game currently - you should bring SOME cheap shielded infantry, ideally with an AL bonus. A single unit of Dreadspears can soak up basically all the ammo a unit of Chameleon Skinks has frontally; they take ~5 damage per shot on average after accounting for shields and armor, and even if the Skinks had 100% accuracy - which they definitely don't - 5 x 68 models x 26 shots is ~8000 maximum possible damage. In reality it will take 2 or 3 units of Skinks to do that much damage in any kind of reasonable time. So if you're on top of your micro you can zone out 2400 points of skirmishers for most of the battle with 900 or 1350 points of infantry, win the main fight, then deal with the skirmishers last.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 261Registered Users
    Actually, sorry, the math above is wrong. I used Chameleon Skinks' Ranged Damage stat instead of the actual per-shot damage, which is lower. Dreadspears actually take ~4 damage per shot after accounting for shields and armor, meaning an absolute maximum of ~7000 damage assuming 100% accuracy. So realistically, with actual in-game accuracy 2 units of Chameleon Skinks might not even be able to kill one Dreadspear unit through ranged damage unless they can get behind them.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users
    Ok, but I do bring at least 1 unit of dreadspears and at least 3 bleaksword in all my build-- and they still take a look a bunch of damage. Maybe I'm just not remembering clearly tho o.O

    Regardless 40+ speed is kinda crazy with a 40% missile resistance buff xd
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 261Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Ok, but I do bring at least 1 unit of dreadspears and at least 3 bleaksword in all my build-- and they still take a look a bunch of damage. Maybe I'm just not remembering clearly tho o.O

    Regardless 40+ speed is kinda crazy with a 40% missile resistance buff xd

    Well I didn't say they wouldn't take damage, but taking a bunch of damage on a Dreadspear in exchange for completely negating a Chameleon Skink is a good trade.

    I just did a quick test battle; I parked a Dreadspear in block formation in front of a Chameleon Skink and just let it shoot. The Chameleon Skinks ran out of ammunition with 2503 HP remaining on the Dreadspears, about half health. The AI then charged into melee, as did I, and the Dreadspears gradually ground the Chameleons down and won combat with 753 HP remaining. Obviously the values will vary according to RNG, but that's basically what I expected to see.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users
    Ok I'm gonna be blunt and say how you justify a unit like this that can destroy targets like Morathi and other units like her (and the are a lot...) Having such an easy time doing it?

    I get they aren't AP handgunners with 160 range, that was never the issue. They are impossible to shut down without a net of amyntok which is a **** excuse.

    It's like saying dwarf players shouldn't complain about chariots because they are playing dwarfs... Just cause I'm using a Lord with low armor (or any other unit with low armor) doesn't mean this other unit is acceptable
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 261Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Ok I'm gonna be blunt and say how you justify a unit like this that can destroy targets like Morathi and other units like her (and the are a lot...) Having such an easy time doing it?

    I get they aren't AP handgunners with 160 range, that was never the issue. They are impossible to shut down without a net of amyntok which is a **** excuse.

    It's like saying dwarf players shouldn't complain about chariots because they are playing dwarfs... Just cause I'm using a Lord with low armor (or any other unit with low armor) doesn't mean this other unit is acceptable

    Um. . . Why not? Units with low armor are vulnerable to missiles, that's how that works. And plus, skirmisher units like Runners/Skinks are actually really bad for attacking Morathi because they have to get so close and she's a fast, flying unit; killing Morathi is much easier with, for example, High Elf Archers.

    Skirmishers are not impossible to shut down, and if appropriately countered they do little damage. If you park a high value but low-armor shieldless unit within extremely close range of missile units. . . I'm sorry, but that's on you.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users
    Killing Morathi with high elf archers is easy? Bro maybe if you net her and have at least 3, otherwise not at all. Any good player will just dodge everything or just charge ... And guess what? You can actually catch high elf archers without taking half your house first!
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Carl_BarCarl_Bar Posts: 349Registered Users
    A unit of Darkshards with Shields should also be very effective if you can keep enemy melee off them. And as HE Seaguard absolutely butcher them, though those are quite expensive for the job from an MP PoV.

    Chameleon Skinks only have just under 5k health, even with their armour and their missile resistance they only run to around 9.8k EHP. It really isn't a lot and as a result they get utterly torn apart by missile troops.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 261Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Killing Morathi with high elf archers is easy? Bro maybe if you net her and have at least 3, otherwise not at all. Any good player will just dodge everything or just charge ... And guess what? You can actually catch high elf archers without taking half your house first!

    And you think it's easier to do with Chameleons? I really don't know how to respond to that, because it's entirely untrue. Low-range skirmisher units are very, very bad at dealing with fast fliers.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users
    Not of you have six of them and the opponent doesn't know where they are....
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 118Registered Users
    I've had success against Chameleon Skinks by using Chariots and net. Took out 3 units quite quickly, but that is an expensive, highly specialized counter, that may end up being less than useful later depending on the build of your opponent.

    I've also found, like GeneralConfusion already said, that cheap shielded units can be left to soak the damage. My Elven Spearmen was taking fire from Chameleon and ordinary Skink Skirmishers - they did very little damage. The Spearmen would have eventually broke probably, but that's after 3-5 minutes. You just have to make sure that your cheap, shielded units are taking fire from the front, otherwise they will take a lot more damage, roughly double, and they will rout much faster.

    You also have to remember that Cham. Skinks are 600 per unit. That's quite expensive. Even if two of them eventually rout the Spearmen after a few minutes, they will be almost out of ammo. That's the price of Executioners, which would rout Spearmen much faster, with little losses in 1v1.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users
    In the event that they do run out of ammo which is most of the time, that's not "good" for the game...

    It means most of the time that you were sitting and waiting for the ammo to run out because catching them is so up in the air.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 118Registered Users
    So, you actually want them to be nerfed, so that you can catch them even if you're unprepared for a large skirmish force?

    There are many ways to deal with them, but in the event that you have absolutely none available at that particular point in time, you can use a cheap shielded infantry unit to basically neuter them.

    Really, what more do you want?
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users

    So, you actually want them to be nerfed, so that you can catch them even if you're unprepared for a large skirmish force?

    There are many ways to deal with them, but in the event that you have absolutely none available at that particular point in time, you can use a cheap shielded infantry unit to basically neuter them.

    Really, what more do you want?

    I want them to have a weakness. It's not that hard is it? Low damage is not a weakness if the unit is so versatile and provides tons of utility which is far more important to their role regardless. Especially if it can he used as a flank infantry because of melee poison and speed, plus stats that mean they will win vs most archers etc.

    Seriously, that's what I want.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 196Registered Users
    edited October 12
    The other issue is spamming chameleon skinks and skirmishers seems to be one of the only ways of countering dark rider with repeater crossbow spam as lizardmen
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users

    The other issue is spamming chameleon skinks and skirmishers seems to be one of the only ways of countering dark rider with repeater crossbow spam as lizardmen

    You use rev crystal with the sun artillery, nothing they can do about it. They won't out damage the healing you'll have
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 261Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    So, you actually want them to be nerfed, so that you can catch them even if you're unprepared for a large skirmish force?

    There are many ways to deal with them, but in the event that you have absolutely none available at that particular point in time, you can use a cheap shielded infantry unit to basically neuter them.

    Really, what more do you want?

    I want them to have a weakness. It's not that hard is it? Low damage is not a weakness if the unit is so versatile and provides tons of utility which is far more important to their role regardless. Especially if it can he used as a flank infantry because of melee poison and speed, plus stats that mean they will win vs most archers etc.

    Seriously, that's what I want.
    A weakness like. . . What? Being too slow to do the only thing they can do? I really don't see how you plan to nerf skirmishers without making them worthless. They're not particularly high-damage, tanky, or even all that fast as it is.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,567Registered Users

    Seldkam said:

    So, you actually want them to be nerfed, so that you can catch them even if you're unprepared for a large skirmish force?

    There are many ways to deal with them, but in the event that you have absolutely none available at that particular point in time, you can use a cheap shielded infantry unit to basically neuter them.

    Really, what more do you want?

    I want them to have a weakness. It's not that hard is it? Low damage is not a weakness if the unit is so versatile and provides tons of utility which is far more important to their role regardless. Especially if it can he used as a flank infantry because of melee poison and speed, plus stats that mean they will win vs most archers etc.

    Seriously, that's what I want.
    A weakness like. . . What? Being too slow to do the only thing they can do? I really don't see how you plan to nerf skirmishers without making them worthless. They're not particularly high-damage, tanky, or even all that fast as it is.
    40% missile resistance bro. That's excessive. No skirmishing unit has anything like that for such a low cost. Too damn high XD

    You get fire while moving stalk relatively cheap spammable poison range decent damage poison melee decent melee stats extremely fast smirmish unit that if microed to any degree is extremely resilient to enemy ranged fire and beats up anything that runs after it because it takes so long to catch up (if you catch them at all)
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • KranoxKranox Posts: 610Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    High elves don't have shadow warriors yet but I think these skirmishers deserve their own thread tbh.

    It seems so far that Skaven and lizard skirmishing is vastly Superior to elven which is really really weird. Shades at 900-1200 are pretty costly while Chameleons at 600 are a no brainier...

    Actually lizardmen are probably the best skirmishing army in the lore since they use tons of hit and run tactics troughout the jungles, its their only good missile option so no nerf needed simply a unit cap of 3

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