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Justice for Tilea and Estalia

ArstellandaArstellanda Posts: 59Registered Users
edited October 14 in General Discussion
TL;DR at the bottom.

In the same vein as other posts have showed up and the new info we recently got for the Mortal Empires map, I wanted to take my time to make this post because I like this game, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for the fact that I really like this game and wanted to stay up to date. This time, however, I have come forth to avenge Tilea's and Estalia's place in the world. and not just Dogs of War outlets.

While this is certainly nothing new, in more ways than one, I already posted something similar in the past, with the name “The case for Tilea and Estalia”:

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/201613/the-case-for-tilea-and-estalia/p1

The post's aim was to mainly highlight a potential way in how the factions could be implemented in the game and, to a certain extent, why it would make sense for them to be introduced.

Setting aside the personal reasons (the same everyone has for their own favourite race/nation/faction in the Warhammer universe) there are different reasons why it would make sense to introduce both of them in the game, especially now that the 2nd game has been released.

While you may like it or not, there really aren't many other factions they can introduce other than a relatively small number, of which some are pre-existing and others are occupied by placeholders. I don't want to be presumptuous in my assertions but certain factions might just not be practical. I'm talking about Amazons or Halflings, of which, not only do they have such a small place, but the ones that they hold are already under the control of the Lizardmen or the Empire/Estalia.
However, Norsca-like treatments are entirely possible, as it has been shown, and it has been rather successful in establishing a precedent, that could work very well for Tilea/Estalia, of which there is already info to work on and enough territory for CA to finally flesh out these two factions that are in dire need of a makeover, instead of using the same old Empire models and units.

Unlike many other factions in the game, Tilea and Estalia are actual players in the maps we currently have, New/Old World and especially in the Mortal Empires campaign, they have the perfect mix that unites both the New World and the Old World. In fact, of the human factions (safe for Norsca but that faction is already in the game) they’re the only ones that actually do have colonies and expeditions in Lustria. Unlike the Empire, the expeditions from the Southern Realms have been MUCH more numerous and attempts at colonisation have been made. This does make them viable in the New World map as well as the Mortal Empires campaign that is soon to be released, because they would be, in the New World map, the only Old World human presence to venture beyond what most human nations could do and open a viable colonial campaign. With the Mortal Empires campaign, they instead have viable options to be more spread out and not being LOCKED in their own respective areas, as it would customarily be the case for the other nations in the Old World.

How would either of them tie in? Whether it be for a “Vortex campaign” or the bigger map, they actually do have a lot of ties. Tilea and Estalia acknowledge the presence of the Skaven, especially Tilea since they have to fight them on a daily basis in Miragliano, with Tobaro having had fights erupt in the past there as well. But the biggest reason is obviously Skavenblight, which is right next to the two regions. If we had to go further, apart from the colonial attempts and the bitter rivalry between city-states of Estalia and Tilea, they both had contacts with the Elves in general, so much so that the Tileans hate the Dark Elves after they sacked on of their cities, while the Estalians had skirmishes with the High Elves at sea.

Coming back to comments from CA, it has been stated that the Mortal Empires campaign will “evolve” though we may not know how or when, it is still an open possibility (again coming back to my older thread) to rework the area. As I had suggested, though I do not want to be presumptuous that is done the way I suggested, the area could be changed to reflect more the actual presence they had in the world, since the Tilean and Estalian city-states were considered the wealthiest human nations around, despite being so divided, and as such would require the area to have more 1 city provinces, much like the Wood Elves, with 9-10 slots each so that they would be functional on their own, as well as add more provinces to begin with, not all of them surely, but increase the number to at least 4 per area, as well as making Tobaro a Tilean region.

How would the campaign itself be constructed? I dare say it wouldn’t be that hard, considering both Magritta and Miragliano could be used, as they were both the strongest city-states lore-wise and the ones taking more ventures and churning out talent like Leonardo da Miragliano (the guy who made the tank for the Empire), as the playable factions for the regions. And as stated in my old thread, unification of the respective regions could be the first objective in the campaign.

For Tilea I imagined that after the unification, Miragliano could turn its attention on the Skaven, which are a recurring threat to them, and eventually through a series of missions, you would finally get to fight a final battle in Skavenblight to get rid of the Skaven in the area once and for all, and ONLY after completing the mission, would you be able to settle in the area and maybe even with a different modifier that would enable you to settle the area properly. Of course leaving the colonisation of the New World as an option or something that you will do later anyway, or maybe you can do both simultaneously.

For Estalia, it would definitely be more in touch with the New World and addressing the Beastmen problem (and maybe still be able to chase the Skaven out too), with the possibility to wipe out the Beastmen in the area for good.

When it comes to the lore in general though, in a game where you can literally conquer the world with Teclis, killing Tyrion and destroying the Lizardmen, the potential to change things is always there, to see the faction you’re playing become what you want it to be. While the start has to be accurate to the lore, the rest are things that can be controlled by the player.

Finally, I realise that this would be a lot of work, but as I have stated before, it doesn’t have to be FreeLC. I’ve read what others have said, and replied to some other people, I’m not the only one wishing for Tilea and Estalia to be officially introduced, there are even mods, that while certainly nice, having CA flesh out these two factions, which now more than ever can be relevant, would be fantastic. It something that me and I am sure many others would be willing to pay, which, again, I certainly would, provided that it’s done well.

If Tomb Kings are introduced, then, the Southern area which was literally a desert since none of the factions were playable, would finally swarm with life and be busy, and maybe who knows even Araby could be part of it so that the experience there becomes even better.

A small shout-out to ben8vtedu with the Dogs of War idea, where I want to say, that while there are good ideas, and again, the more factions we get the better I am all for it there is potential and people WANT those factions and they are willing to pay for it too, I don’t think a Dogs of War horde would work as an experience, as the AI would certainly not be able to give the system justice because DoW are mercenaries unlike the WoC which can work as a horde faction specifically because of how they are. If multiplayer were to extend to many more players, DoW I think would work a lot better, but that doesn’t mean I’m against them.

To be honest, so far, apart from the additional LLs for the 4 from the 2nd game, when it comes to factions, only Tilea, Estalia, Tomb Kings and maybe Araby can make the bill. Kislev and Ogre kingdoms belong to the 3rd game.

For now #justiceforthesouth

TL;DR: For people who don't want to read the entire thing, Tilea and Estalia have all the ingredients to be playable factions thanks to the ties that are possible in the 2nd Game. There are A LOT of possibilities and material to make the campaign good. And in my opinion, even if it's a lot of work creating a campaign for both, the potential is definitely there with the Tileans actively fighting the Skaven, as the reclamation of Skavenblight to eliminate the rat men once and for all from the area, with an epic campaign that will let you settle Skavenblight after defeating the Skaven armies, and both Estalia and Tilea, since they have colonies in the New World can definitely fit in the New World map as they colonise the area. The Norsca treatment is sound, and they can easily get unique models and units, considering Estalia does field ogres and halflings in their armies, while the Tileans tend to be more advanced than the Empire in technology. Not to mention, instead of making the Southern Realms area a complete desert, should even Tomb Kings be released then the area would finally come to life and not be just a stepping stone for other powers.
DO NOT LET THE ABOMINATION THAT IS END TIMES BE THE END OF OUR DREAMS IN THIS GAME.
Post edited by Arstellanda on
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Comments

  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Posts: 323Registered Users
    TL;DR

    The implementation of Skavenblight will ensure that Tilea and Estalia get the justice they deserve.
  • TalmoreanTalmorean Posts: 704Registered Users


    Thanks for the TL:DR GettoGecko.

    If TEB gets the Norsca treatment, neat. If not, okay. I'd rather Charlemagnes go toward expanding Game 1 rosters and LL primarily though.
  • Mohawk_RoshiMohawk_Roshi Posts: 1,607Registered Users
    I think TEB need to be handled by CA officially there's things we just can't get right with mod tools being limited as they are. Money should go to LLs and Rosters but aside from the Empire there's not a terrible amount of content missing from Game 1. I don't include chaos because game 3.
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  • TheHolyPilgrimTheHolyPilgrim Junior Member Posts: 374Registered Users
    Oh, they'll get their justice, alright.

    *Laughs in rat*
  • Aeio502Aeio502 Posts: 32Registered Users
    You have quite solid reasons.

    Now, the only serious weak point, the list of armies, but like Norsca can be fixed and for me has logic the inclusion of this faction, it makes more active that area.
  • ben8vteduben8vtedu Posts: 430Registered Users
    edited October 11
    Thanks for the shout out, though I feel obligated to mention that the Dogs of War Horde wasn't originally my idea; several others had the idea before me, I think I was just the first to start a thread about it.

    I also feel I have to let the record show I am offering my token disagreement on how the Southern Realms will be implemented. In order to really do the race justice, CA would have to add each city-state as it's own sub-faction and based on the image we saw in the blog today it doesn't seem like much has been added to the TEB region excepting Skavenblight and what looks like Tobaro. We already know Sartosa won't carry over from the Vortex map. There's really no way to do the region justice without a mini-campaign and those prospects are sketchy at best right now.

    A DoW horde on the other hand will at least pay lip service to the character of the Southern Realms as it can lend the TEB AI factions it's roster, technologies, and buildings. After the all, the "armies" of the Southern Realms are quite explicitly identified as mercenary forces to begin with. There is also the added bonus that a DoW horde can start just about anywhere which gives it an advantage on the Vortex Map, as any DLC faction needs to be applicable on both the Mortal Empires and the Vortex Map and any LL choices need to make sense for both.

    So while one can hope that we get both TEB and DoW as race packs, I'm fairly confident that getting one would preclude the other. So here's to hoping that we at least get something.

    Edit: Links to my threads if anyone's interested. https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/201650/dogs-of-war-horde-faction/p1 and https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/203868/dogs-of-war-follow-up#latest
    Post edited by ben8vtedu on
  • ArstellandaArstellanda Posts: 59Registered Users
    ben8vtedu said:

    Thanks for the shout out, though I feel obligated to mention that the Dogs of War Horde wasn't originally my idea; several others had the idea before me, I think I was just the first to start a thread about it.

    I also feel I have to let the record show I am offering my token disagreement on how the Southern Realms will be implemented. In order to really do the race justice, CA would have to add each city-state as it's own sub-faction and based on the image we saw in the blog today it doesn't seem like much has been added to the TEB region excepting Skavenblight and what looks like Tobaro. We already know Sartosa won't carry over from the Vortex map. There's really no way to do the region justice without a mini-campaign and those prospects are sketchy at best right now.

    A DoW horde on the other hand will at least pay lip service to the character of the Southern Realms as it can lend the TEB AI factions it's roster, technologies, and buildings. After the all, the "armies" of the Southern Realms are quite explicitly identified as mercenary forces to begin with. There is also the added bonus that a DoW horde can start just about anywhere which gives it an advantage on the Vortex Map, as any DLC faction needs to be applicable on both the Mortal Empires and the Vortex Map and any LL choices need to make sense for both.

    So while one can hope that we get both TEB and DoW as race packs, I'm fairly confident that getting one would preclude the other. So here's to hoping that we at least get something.

    While I disagree with the Dogs of War representing the Southern Realms, there is no denying that they play a big part. I remember when I said that a compromise would be horrible, I just think it really would be best to make the separation, because even though the DoW are present, they have their own identity. Tilea and Estalia are not just about DoW, considering both, even though not extensively field "state" armies, at least for the very bare minimum, mercenaries are used for the larger conflicts. It would be a REAL SHAME if CA only did one or the other, or make a compromise, because for both there is potential.

    With that being said, I agree that reworking the Southern area would be pretty tough, but it doesn't have to include everything, just rework how the provinces work, as I said like the Wood Elves. BUT since they said the Mortal Empires map will evolve, there is a possibility they might change the provinces to fit more city-states.
    The main thing however, is that, people like us are willing to pay for such work, I don't expect it to be done for free, so the post also wanted to make it clear that there is a demand.

    The way I see it, it would be nice if either after Tomb Kings comes after the ME campaign (if Tomb Kings comes out naturally) they introduce the TEB area, AND should the multiplayer campaign expand to more players (since there are rumours circulating that they might, again as with everything lately, it's all hearsay) release together with the multiplayer update, a proper Dogs of War faction.
  • ben8vteduben8vtedu Posts: 430Registered Users

    While I disagree with the Dogs of War representing the Southern Realms, there is no denying that they play a big part. I remember when I said that a compromise would be horrible, I just think it really would be best to make the separation, because even though the DoW are present, they have their own identity. Tilea and Estalia are not just about DoW, considering both, even though not extensively field "state" armies, at least for the very bare minimum, mercenaries are used for the larger conflicts. It would be a REAL SHAME if CA only did one or the other, or make a compromise, because for both there is potential.

    There's probably more than enough material for one DLC, but not quite enough for two. Were they to do both, how would they make them distinct from each other? Who would the LL's be for a just TEB faction. All the named characters from the book are explicitly Dogs of War mercenaries. Only possibilities I see are a Dogs of War race with Tilean flavor or a TEB faction with a DoW mechanic, and of the two the DoW seem simpler to implement.

    With that being said, I agree that reworking the Southern area would be pretty tough, but it doesn't have to include everything, just rework how the provinces work, as I said like the Wood Elves. BUT since they said the Mortal Empires map will evolve, there is a possibility they might change the provinces to fit more city-states. The main thing however, is that, people like us are willing to pay for such work, I don't expect it to be done for free, so the post also wanted to make it clear that there is a demand.

    While they can make adjustments to the ME map, that doesn't address the issue of how either possibility would work on just the Vortex Map. You've got two possible starts for TEB on the Vortex Campaign, Sartosa and New World Colonies, so which LLs get to start there? Do those same LLs also make sense on the Mortal Empires map? Sartosa goes away in ME campaign, so at least one LL has to move back to the Southern Realms. Would it be appropriate for them to start in either place? A DoW horde doesn't have that problem, it makes sense for them to start just about anywhere; Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes, Sartosa, New World Colonies, Sudenburg, Araby, or anywhere in Lustria.

    The way I see it, it would be nice if either after Tomb Kings comes after the ME campaign (if Tomb Kings comes out naturally) they introduce the TEB area, AND should the multiplayer campaign expand to more players (since there are rumours circulating that they might, again as with everything lately, it's all hearsay) release together with the multiplayer update, a proper Dogs of War faction.

    That's a lot of ifs, shoulds, mights, and maybes that have to go our way in order to make a playable, settled, TEB faction a reality. A DoW horde makes the fewest assumptions and is much more flexible when it comes to being DLC for game 2. Of course, if they were to continue pumping out DLC for game 1 that problem goes away for TEB; time will tell.
  • SnapperaSnappera Senior Member Posts: 1,020Registered Users
    Cool lets see their army books.
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  • ben8vteduben8vtedu Posts: 430Registered Users
  • ArstellandaArstellanda Posts: 59Registered Users
    Snappera said:

    Cool lets see their army books.

    The answer is: The Norsca treatment.

    Going a little more indepth with ben8vtedu, I wanted to apologise if I sounded presumptuous in my assertions. But in essence, the answer remains the Norsca treatment.

    At least that's one answer, there are two others.

    One way, as you have said. Whether it is acceptable to be honest, I don't know, I don't think it would do them either justice, in all honesty.

    The second is the compromise, it would be to make both factions in their own right but so intrinsecally attached that it would just end up being like the food mechanic for the Skaven or the amber for the Wood Elves, making the entire gameplay so absurd and limited, it would be frustrating.

    The best scenario is the Norsca treatment with the separate Dogs of War not being tied to just TEB.
    In the New World map, when it comes to Tilea and Estalia, they can make them start from their colonies, Santa Magritta and New Luccini.

    The problem with a Dogs of War is a whole other matter, as we already discussed, it would require quite the amount of work for it to be functional, especially when it comes to your end game. The DoW aren't like the WoC in that they raze everything they attack to ground because they're supposed to bring destruction, they don't make use of settlements and have to continuously fight to make a living. And the way they're played is to literally fight everyone and watch the world burn. There is a specific objective that makes sense in the context, and you leave a footprint in what you do.
    With the DoW it would just be problematic how to establish the end goal. It would be a horde faction born to literally support another faction to win the game, in the setting, because money is what they want as mercenaries, not raze everything they see, just plundering and looting but not completely obliterate nations. How would the AI work alongside such a system?
    I think the real problem with a horde DoW would exactly be the opposite of TEB. Yes there is info about the various mercenary companies, however, it would be rather impractical to implement the system. While with Tilea and Estalia they would need to create something new like Norsca.

    Thinking more and more, I get the idea that they might really go for the compromise and I suddenly feel a sense of dread, because if it becomes as invasive as Amber is for Wood Elves, there's the risk of making things more frustrating than anything. But in the end, it would be the "easiest way" at which point, pardon me but it would be lazy.

    If we are to assume the best case scenario there is space for both and there is an opportunity flesh out factions that we haven't been given the chance to know about. Yes there is more work to do, but this is also why they could sell it instead of it being FreeLC. They can create something decent like they did with Norsca, flexing their creative muscle, while also working out something interesting for the Dogs of War, and it doesn't have to be tied to TEB, or at least not directly. I know you mentioned that a possibility could be you get to reach your goal through contracts and then you can decide to stick around with one of the TEB nations, but forgive me for this, but it would defeat the purpose of the DoW are supposed to be, in the end.

    And, well I have to be sincere with you here, they way I imagined it to be, was for Tilea and Estalia to make use of units styled on their respective DoW companies, that would be unlocked the more they manage to unite their nation. Once Tilea and Estalia had been united, they'd be able to field normal armies like any other faction. So while they're still city-states they'd be using DoW units, but the more you capture the more the army starts to be more a state army, because youre becoming a proper empire/kingdom and so on. Say something like Pirazzo's Lost Legion, units styled on such a design would be one of top tier infantry, like 4-5.
    Considering the circumstances, if anything, I'd expect TEB to have a weak cavalry and strong infantry with good artillery, while Estalia can field Ogre units etc.
    It is something along those lines.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 1,854Registered Users

    while the Tileans tend to be more advanced than the Empire in technology.

    No, they don't, at least not in military terms. The Empire, taken as a whole, has more technology than Tilea. Yes, Leonardo de Miragliano was a Tilean... but he founded his school in Altdorf. Meanwhile, the Dogs of War list still has relatively limited usage of firearms, let alone some of the crazy stuff the Empire has.

    The Tileans so consider themselves more civilised than the Empire, and if they're comparing to the Empire's median, they may be correct. Altdorf and Nuln are probably the most technologically advanced human cities in the Warhammer Fantasy world (including the Far East), but the Empire has a lot of variation: some of the provinces, particularly the eastern ones, are quite backwards compared to the southwest, particularly as you get away from the big cities. Tilea is probably more uniform in its development.
  • ben8vteduben8vtedu Posts: 430Registered Users

    The problem with a Dogs of War is a whole other matter, as we already discussed, it would require quite the amount of work for it to be functional, especially when it comes to your end game.

    I think the real problem with a horde DoW would exactly be the opposite of TEB. Yes there is info about the various mercenary companies, however, it would be rather impractical to implement the system. While with Tilea and Estalia they would need to create something new like Norsca.

    Say something like Pirazzo's Lost Legion, units styled on such a design would be one of top tier infantry, like 4-5. Considering the circumstances, if anything, I'd expect TEB to have a weak cavalry and strong infantry with good artillery, while Estalia can field Ogre units etc.

    Quite the opposite actually. All of the possible mechanics I mentioned are already in game in some capacity or another. "Renown" or "Reputation" would function much like the Chivalry mechanic for Bretonnia and filling out your meter would allow you to accomplish your endgame goal, whatever that may be. The "Contracts" or "Bounties" would function much like the Book of Grudges or Monstrous Arcanum but differs in that they'd be a major source of income.

    Additionally, their roster isn't anything radically new, and much like Norsca a lot of it can be produced through reskins or even straight copy-paste for some units like Dwarfs and Marauders. Even units that need new models like Ogres, will be reusable down the road. I think part of what made Norsca a viable option for CA was the fact that there were only about 5-6 units that needed completely new models. So while their roster doesn't seem to contain too much that breaches beyond tier 4 or so, their "elite" units are in fact the plethora of RoR they can recruit.

    The DoW aren't like the WoC in that they raze everything they attack to ground because they're supposed to bring destruction, they don't make use of settlements and have to continuously fight to make a living. And the way they're played is to literally fight everyone and watch the world burn. There is a specific objective that makes sense in the context, and you leave a footprint in what you do.
    With the DoW it would just be problematic how to establish the end goal. It would be a horde faction born to literally support another faction to win the game, in the setting, because money is what they want as mercenaries, not raze everything they see, just plundering and looting but not completely obliterate nations. How would the AI work alongside such a system?


    I know you mentioned that a possibility could be you get to reach your goal through contracts and then you can decide to stick around with one of the TEB nations, but forgive me for this, but it would defeat the purpose of the DoW are supposed to be, in the end.

    It wouldn't necessarily be your goal to help just ONE faction, but instead to profit off the wars of other factions and in turn achieve your own unique win conditions. In that way, their campaign is much more open ended than any other; you know what your goals are, but how you achieve them is completely up to you, moreso than any other campaign. The idea of conquering Tilea as part of your victory conditions is just one of many possible scenarios for a DoW endgame.

    As far as DoW as AI is concerned, there's quite a few possibilities. Just spitballing here, not saying any of these are the best ideas, but they could take the place of Rogue armies or they could take the place of intervention forces on the Vortex campaign (which is much more in line with how DoW function than any of the current races on the Vortex campaign). Otherwise, in a more traditional sense, they'd be like any other horde faction with the added benefit that you can assign them war coordination targets via diplomacy for an appropriate amount of money.

    And, well I have to be sincere with you here, they way I imagined it to be, was for Tilea and Estalia to make use of units styled on their respective DoW companies, that would be unlocked the more they manage to unite their nation. Once Tilea and Estalia had been united, they'd be able to field normal armies like any other faction. So while they're still city-states they'd be using DoW units, but the more you capture the more the army starts to be more a state army, because youre becoming a proper empire/kingdom and so on.


    In the New World map, when it comes to Tilea and Estalia, they can make them start from their colonies, Santa Magritta and New Luccini.

    And here is where I think the major flaw in your proposal is, but it has more to do with how the game was designed than with your ideas. In the lore, the TEB region is much more divided then say the Empire and yet in the game the Empire still has to go about uniting all of it's provinces. On the other hand Tilea, for example, is already a united province despite the fact they've never been united in their entire history. Having a united Tilea, Estalia, or Border Princes with "state" armies runs completely counter to their character in the setting.

    They are not empire builders, instead they are small principalities locked in an eternal struggle for dominance and this cannot be accurately portrayed on the current map (though if you ask me, it would make for a hell of a mini-campaign). Now they could go about turning each city into it's own subfaction, but there's only like 9 settlements in the whole Southern Realms area, and that's including 4 Border Princes settlements. So if you script it in that you can't really expand until you unite your race, you're going to be fighting those same 9 factions at the beginning of every campaign, which honestly isn't much different than any other campaign, but with the added limitation that you can't deviate from that list until you're about 50 turns in or so. And that hurts replayability.

    I checked the Vortex map, and Santa Magritta and New Luccini aren't on there, though I'd still be interested to hear your proposals for LLs. Though I think I've hijacked your thread quite enough, didn't mean to derail this into a DLC vs DLC discussion.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 6,243Registered Users
    The Norsca tech singling out Tilea was... interesting. Tilea's special automatic garrison force was... interesting. These things suggest that we may well see them eventually. However, what is going to be really telling (or at least add more evidence) is if Miragliano gets treated like a proper capitol city with ten slots in Mortal Empires. If it does we have more evidence, if not... well, that isn't good for those of us who want Southern Realms.
  • Mohawk_RoshiMohawk_Roshi Posts: 1,607Registered Users
    Canuovea said:

    The Norsca tech singling out Tilea was... interesting. Tilea's special automatic garrison force was... interesting. These things suggest that we may well see them eventually. However, what is going to be really telling (or at least add more evidence) is if Miragliano gets treated like a proper capitol city with ten slots in Mortal Empires. If it does we have more evidence, if not... well, that isn't good for those of us who want Southern Realms.

    Don't say that now. They could always add more slots
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  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 6,243Registered Users

    Canuovea said:

    The Norsca tech singling out Tilea was... interesting. Tilea's special automatic garrison force was... interesting. These things suggest that we may well see them eventually. However, what is going to be really telling (or at least add more evidence) is if Miragliano gets treated like a proper capitol city with ten slots in Mortal Empires. If it does we have more evidence, if not... well, that isn't good for those of us who want Southern Realms.

    Don't say that now. They could always add more slots
    Yes, they could. However, if they change it from the get go that's a good sign that they're thinking about it. If they don't... less likely that they are thinking about it.
  • ArstellandaArstellanda Posts: 59Registered Users
    edited October 12
    Draxynnic said:

    while the Tileans tend to be more advanced than the Empire in technology.

    No, they don't, at least not in military terms. The Empire, taken as a whole, has more technology than Tilea. Yes, Leonardo de Miragliano was a Tilean... but he founded his school in Altdorf. Meanwhile, the Dogs of War list still has relatively limited usage of firearms, let alone some of the crazy stuff the Empire has.

    The Tileans so consider themselves more civilised than the Empire, and if they're comparing to the Empire's median, they may be correct. Altdorf and Nuln are probably the most technologically advanced human cities in the Warhammer Fantasy world (including the Far East), but the Empire has a lot of variation: some of the provinces, particularly the eastern ones, are quite backwards compared to the southwest, particularly as you get away from the big cities. Tilea is probably more uniform in its development.
    In response to both this and ben8vtedu, I wanted to take the opportunity to tie it in since they are, albeit loosely, connected to how the factioncan potentially play out in the first place.

    Again, I will invoke the "Norsca treatment" to at least say, that things can be formed from the ground up, but coming back to the main point...

    Yes it is true that Tilea might not be THE most advanced, it is also true that the Empire actually has limitations that are so integral to their culture to begin with, that makes development itself really hard. In fact, in a similar fashion to the Bretonnians, though not as extreme, the Empire has conflicting opinions on that which is magic, faith and technology, and that has made it really hard to come up with innovative ways to fight things. In fact, a lot of the advancements they had, came not from them, but from other people. And this was all despite being desperate for measures, every time they had to have it done by someone else.
    Tilea on the other hand, had its own pool of talent, and even though certain things were still not invented specifically by then, they were also the ones coming up with more ideas because they didn't have the restrictions that the Empire has to this day.

    This all brings me to the next point, why is that the case? Well, the major reason is very simple, and it's what happens historically (it happened in our world too) when the talent that was grown, simply leaves because their place doesn't offer them opportunity. The Empire offered opportunities because they were the stronger power, more unified, despite being still somewhat divided, as well as having immediate threats to fight. By their culture alone, progress itself wasn't fostered, it all came out of necessity, but since they had the influence to exert a certain amount of power they did so.
    The city-states simply don't have that power due to their size and "immediate threats". One of the few times was when Miragliano had to be restructured and became a fortress because of the Skaven, it WAS a necessity but even then, it took the effort from every single noble and the rest of the population.

    How does all this come into play?
    As I said, just as Teclis can conquer the world giving a giant middle finger to everyone including his own brother, so can a city-state from Tilea or Estalia unify its region and go on to world conquering too, in the game. Not to mention that, first and foremost TIlea and Estalia are not united, they do occasionally do some "charity" for their own good, like the maintenance of the wall, but other than that, they operate as single entities, which is why the keep trying to conquer each other too, it's just that they keep using the same outdated Dogs of War to achieve that and it obviously comes down to a stalemate. The same thing that happened in the city-states of Italy, it becomes really hard to raise a proper army when your population is limited and cannot really contend with the other major players, but united? Definitely yes.
    In fact, a unification can easily be made to fill the lack of opportunities as well as a change in policies that would make sense for them to have, as late game units, more "advanced" units. And as I said, I would honestly just keep a weak cavalry with a strong infantry both melee and range, exactly due to the nature of their armies to begin with.
    A difference from Bretonnia and the Empire, where in both cases they field strong or pretty good cavalry in their lineups.

    While I don't think that replacing the rogue armies with DoW ones would be a good idea, I can't really say it can't happen. Again, it's CA calling the shots, they could potentially make it work. But then again, just having some "reskins" just reeks of laziness and it would be bad, because then what's the point?

    Coming to the LLs, CA has the perfect opportunity to offer something more, and maybe even give us the merchant princes as LLs finally showing who they are, maybe having more of a supporting role in the army, away from the front and just being part of the backline. And when it comes to other lords you can hire, then you can maybe use iconic DoW Lords if you REALLY want that.

    Again, I don't expect this to be for free, at all. It would be best to be a job well done with UNIQUE models and I would be more than willing to pay the price they put up.
  • Mohawk_RoshiMohawk_Roshi Posts: 1,607Registered Users
    edited October 12
    Canuovea said:

    Canuovea said:

    The Norsca tech singling out Tilea was... interesting. Tilea's special automatic garrison force was... interesting. These things suggest that we may well see them eventually. However, what is going to be really telling (or at least add more evidence) is if Miragliano gets treated like a proper capitol city with ten slots in Mortal Empires. If it does we have more evidence, if not... well, that isn't good for those of us who want Southern Realms.

    Don't say that now. They could always add more slots
    Yes, they could. However, if they change it from the get go that's a good sign that they're thinking about it. If they don't... less likely that they are thinking about it.
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  • SnapperaSnappera Senior Member Posts: 1,020Registered Users
    edited October 12
    ben8vtedu said:

    Snappera said:

    Cool lets see their army books.

    Dogs of War: https://yadi.sk/d/o909F6pixsCTd
    White Dwarf article on how to field an entire DoW army: http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1412/59/1412599710057.pdf
    Yeah, exactly why they're going to be Dogs of War.

    Norsca can be ONLY assumed to be the exception rather than the rule. We were told we'd probably get all the army books. Norsca came as a surprise/bonus. It wasn't too hard either as they were part of the Warriors of Chaos.

    Tilea and Estalia are a whole new beast entirely, even with the Norsca treatment. And that's not even accounting for the fact that Norsca wasn't even something we were expecting anyway.

    It would be brill if something new was made out of them! Don't get me wrong. But I hope people wont be disappointed if they are Dogs of War, as it's all we should really be expecting based on the info we have so far.
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  • jhandjhand Posts: 162Registered Users
    no mini campaigns.
  • IokkoIokko Junior Member Posts: 31Registered Users
    First of all i wanna say, great thread, it's nice when people can discuss their ideas and express disagreement without being rude or obnoxious, so props to you guys.

    Personally, i'd like to see Tilea as a faction that owns land rather than a horde, but uses Dogs of War to fight its battles;
    I apologize in advance if i get something wrong, i'm no lore expert, but my understanding is Tilean city states often use mercenary armies to fight one another, so we could for example play as Miragliano, led by LL Borgio the besieger, who is a named character in the Dogs of War army book, and hire a full DoW army for him to lead in battle.

    This wouldn't necessarily mean no new units can be added, people have already pointed out what CA did with norsca, and i'm sure they could do it for the DoW too; I imagine this could be a great chance to represent at least in some form units like Halflings or Amazons, who are extremely unlikely to get their own DLC, but still would be cool to see, much like the Fimir for Norsca.

    I love the "Reputation" and "Contracts or Bounties" ideas, they fit the faction perfectly IMO and on top of that i would suggest a loyalty system for generic lords, similiar to the one Dark Elves and Skaven have but maybe affected by reputation or sacking income.

    For subfactions i'd like to see Miragliano led by Borgio and the New World Colonies, though i don't know which LL they would get.

    I guess i'm leaning more towards a Dogs of War race pack but either way i'd just like for the southern realms to be playable in some way. (I am aware of Cataph's mod and he did an awesome job but obviously CA has access to better tools and could expand it in ways that modders simply cannot)

    Just my 2 cents, keep the awesome thread going!
  • IokkoIokko Junior Member Posts: 31Registered Users
    jhand said:

    no mini campaigns.

    and no capes!
  • SnapperaSnappera Senior Member Posts: 1,020Registered Users
    Iokko said:

    First of all i wanna say, great thread, it's nice when people can discuss their ideas and express disagreement without being rude or obnoxious, so props to you guys.

    Personally, i'd like to see Tilea as a faction that owns land rather than a horde, but uses Dogs of War to fight its battles;
    I apologize in advance if i get something wrong, i'm no lore expert, but my understanding is Tilean city states often use mercenary armies to fight one another, so we could for example play as Miragliano, led by LL Borgio the besieger, who is a named character in the Dogs of War army book, and hire a full DoW army for him to lead in battle.

    This wouldn't necessarily mean no new units can be added, people have already pointed out what CA did with norsca, and i'm sure they could do it for the DoW too; I imagine this could be a great chance to represent at least in some form units like Halflings or Amazons, who are extremely unlikely to get their own DLC, but still would be cool to see, much like the Fimir for Norsca.

    I love the "Reputation" and "Contracts or Bounties" ideas, they fit the faction perfectly IMO and on top of that i would suggest a loyalty system for generic lords, similiar to the one Dark Elves and Skaven have but maybe affected by reputation or sacking income.

    For subfactions i'd like to see Miragliano led by Borgio and the New World Colonies, though i don't know which LL they would get.

    I guess i'm leaning more towards a Dogs of War race pack but either way i'd just like for the southern realms to be playable in some way. (I am aware of Cataph's mod and he did an awesome job but obviously CA has access to better tools and could expand it in ways that modders simply cannot)

    Just my 2 cents, keep the awesome thread going!

    This is my prediction.

    Tilea has a Dogs of War army roster with maybe some 'city guard' garrisons that aren't mercenaries. You'll be able to recruit armies very quickly and for a low initial cost but they'll be tremendous on upkeep. They should have statesmen who they can level up and defend cities, but I'm not sure whether they should be able to partake as generals or not... because I have a thought on that below:

    So my additional thought, (which I think would be interesting) Mercenary 'Lords' could be persistent between all factions that use DoW. So if you want to keep a Lord all to yourself, make sure you keep paying him loads, or your enemies could hire him.

    This then, would make them very flexible on the campaign map but also would mean it's more difficult for them to run a persistent invasion. Effectively making them an excellent faction for gold, trading and fighting quick/decisive wars. But not good for conquering.

    You'll be the rich traders similar to the High Elves, but with more flexibility and less colonisation ability.

    Anyway, those are just my thoughts and predictions. I think that'd be a fun faction.
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  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 1,024Registered Users
    I'm convinced WH 2 would have sold better with a human faction (Tilea/Estalia colonies) at release. They aren't at all difficult to make (standard animations, no monsters) and can provide a big bang for the buck.
  • Mohawk_RoshiMohawk_Roshi Posts: 1,607Registered Users
    Here's my prediction we will see Dogs of War added via game 2 DLC it will feature two LLs Borgio the Besieger and Francisco Pirazzo.Borgio will lead Tilea out of Sartosa on an invasion of the Southlands Borgio will have increased loyalty from other lords lower upkeep cost to all mercenaries and artillery as well as siege bonus of -2 hold out time. Pizarro will be placed in the New World colonies he will have a recruitment buff of 2 chevrons to all standard infantry bonuses to looting sacking and income from treasure hunts and increased morale for all soldiers. Then in ME Borgio will be moved back to Tilea with the goal of Unifying the Southern Realms thereby checking the power of the larger realms that surround them like Bretonnia the Empire and Araby while Pirazzo stays in Lustria bent on carving an empire for Estalia in the new world.

    Here's what I hope for. The lesser known lesser explored races that otherwise wouldn't be seen given life through Dogs of War. Amazon Warriors Halfling hot pots Albion giants and Truthsayers as well as units from the Far East like terra-cotta automatons tiger warriors ninjas and samurai. I'd love for Dogs of War to be the home of misfits that aren't crucial to other races armies but yet form special regiments around a solid pike and shot backbone. Just what I'd like to see though.
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  • ArstellandaArstellanda Posts: 59Registered Users
    Well, as everyone here has a faction they want to see introduced because they want/love that faction to make an appearance, and as we saw, CA has been rather good at implementing the various races well, to a certain extent.
    And well, I understand, and respect ben8vtedu, since I could tell that he does care and has put thought into how they could potentially introduce the Dogs of War too, even if not everything is not his idea, he demonstrated he was willing to put himself out there to support a faction he really likes. It's normal, I have always liked the idea of Estalia and Tilea because they're so different compared to the other human factions in culture, as they operate in a way that is reminiscent of how an actual nation of the times would actually behave, without being twisted and warped (literally at times) by some world ending menace that turned everything for the worst. As is common with Warhammer in general, but that is also why I also liked the Tau more, to be honest, because they weren't a complete mess.

    With that being said, I just wanted to add, since I forgot, that in the New World map there is a faction called "New World Colonies" also listed as Southern Realms but with Empire models. For starters, those are actually supposed to be Tilean or Estalian colonies since no other human nation (not affiliated to chaos) actually has any ventures or colonies in Lustria.
    Secondly, the fact that they're generic Empire models is a pity, but after all there aren't any others.
    Even then, technically those aren't the position that the colonies are situated, however, they can very well work out at this point, and yes, they could have added them as the only "Old World influence" from humans that they had in Lustria in the 2nd Game. It doesn't mean they can't always change it with the DLC by having that be the starting zone for Estalia/Tilea but we don't know what they're planning.

    Lastly, as I said already in my post, if Tomb Kings is to come in the near future, as the 1st DLC, then we would finally see, if Tilea and Estalia are also added (hopefully) the southern area to finally become active, flourishing with life rather than being a mere desert.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 1,854Registered Users

    Yes it is true that Tilea might not be THE most advanced, it is also true that the Empire actually has limitations that are so integral to their culture to begin with, that makes development itself really hard. In fact, in a similar fashion to the Bretonnians, though not as extreme, the Empire has conflicting opinions on that which is magic, faith and technology, and that has made it really hard to come up with innovative ways to fight things. In fact, a lot of the advancements they had, came not from them, but from other people. And this was all despite being desperate for measures, every time they had to have it done by someone else.

    I think this is quite a way off. The Empire has divisions regarding the role of magic, but from what I've read, there doesn't appear to be any such controversy regarding technology. There are some units and provinces that don't have much, but this is for a variety of reasons - feeling that they're better off using the weapons they're used to than retraining with something new, that noisy and sometimes unreliable firearms are less suited for the role they need to undertake, or simply being poor and not being able to afford most of the latest gadgets. As far as I know, there is no structural resistance to technological innovation in the Empire as there is in Bretonnia.

    Regarding technology coming from somewhere else... I think you're selling the School of Engineering short by quite a bit there. Yes, the basics come from the dwarfs... but it's noted that the School of Engineering is able to move from prototypes to production a lot faster than the dwarfs due to not being tied down by the dwarven obsession with tradition (its the dwarfs that have controversies with every new invention...) and have gone down development paths that the dwarfs haven't. The dwarfs don't have mortars (a significant development even if they're treated as lowish-tier artillery in TWW, since it requires having exploding shells instead of solid cannonballs), repeating handguns, or mechanical horses, for instance. Nor do they have weaponised rockets - the fluff has the Helblaster being inspired by a fireworks display, but it was still the College of Engineering that weaponised it (regardless of what might be happening in Cathay). One could also note that it's strongly indicated that the Southern Realms got their initial leg up from early contacts with the Dwarfs and Elves.

    Furthermore, Leonardo de Miragliano is presented as being a once-in-several-generations genius, and probably should not be considered typical of Tilea.

    Certainly, the Dogs of War list is less technically advanced than the Empire. There are no handguns at all in the list, just artillery and a few pistols - I think people are willing to ignore that so they can get pike and shot (and there is precedent for Estalians having handguns in the diorama of the 5E Lizardmen book), but strictly speaking it's all bows and crossbows. Artillery is ordinary cannons (although they have developed the concept of galloping guns) and the halfling hot pot. The Birdmen are a Tilean original, but I don't think there's anything pointing towards technology being a distinguishing feature for the Southern Realms. Dwarfs (including Chaos Dwarfs), Empire, and Skaven are the races that have the technological theme - Southern Realms/DoW would probably be mostly limited to 16th-century technology.
  • ArstellandaArstellanda Posts: 59Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Yes it is true that Tilea might not be THE most advanced, it is also true that the Empire actually has limitations that are so integral to their culture to begin with, that makes development itself really hard. In fact, in a similar fashion to the Bretonnians, though not as extreme, the Empire has conflicting opinions on that which is magic, faith and technology, and that has made it really hard to come up with innovative ways to fight things. In fact, a lot of the advancements they had, came not from them, but from other people. And this was all despite being desperate for measures, every time they had to have it done by someone else.

    I think this is quite a way off. The Empire has divisions regarding the role of magic, but from what I've read, there doesn't appear to be any such controversy regarding technology. There are some units and provinces that don't have much, but this is for a variety of reasons - feeling that they're better off using the weapons they're used to than retraining with something new, that noisy and sometimes unreliable firearms are less suited for the role they need to undertake, or simply being poor and not being able to afford most of the latest gadgets. As far as I know, there is no structural resistance to technological innovation in the Empire as there is in Bretonnia.

    Regarding technology coming from somewhere else... I think you're selling the School of Engineering short by quite a bit there. Yes, the basics come from the dwarfs... but it's noted that the School of Engineering is able to move from prototypes to production a lot faster than the dwarfs due to not being tied down by the dwarven obsession with tradition (its the dwarfs that have controversies with every new invention...) and have gone down development paths that the dwarfs haven't. The dwarfs don't have mortars (a significant development even if they're treated as lowish-tier artillery in TWW, since it requires having exploding shells instead of solid cannonballs), repeating handguns, or mechanical horses, for instance. Nor do they have weaponised rockets - the fluff has the Helblaster being inspired by a fireworks display, but it was still the College of Engineering that weaponised it (regardless of what might be happening in Cathay). One could also note that it's strongly indicated that the Southern Realms got their initial leg up from early contacts with the Dwarfs and Elves.

    Furthermore, Leonardo de Miragliano is presented as being a once-in-several-generations genius, and probably should not be considered typical of Tilea.

    Certainly, the Dogs of War list is less technically advanced than the Empire. There are no handguns at all in the list, just artillery and a few pistols - I think people are willing to ignore that so they can get pike and shot (and there is precedent for Estalians having handguns in the diorama of the 5E Lizardmen book), but strictly speaking it's all bows and crossbows. Artillery is ordinary cannons (although they have developed the concept of galloping guns) and the halfling hot pot. The Birdmen are a Tilean original, but I don't think there's anything pointing towards technology being a distinguishing feature for the Southern Realms. Dwarfs (including Chaos Dwarfs), Empire, and Skaven are the races that have the technological theme - Southern Realms/DoW would probably be mostly limited to 16th-century technology.
    From what I read, it seemed to me that it was only a very small portion, that is the directly interested, that saw advancements. Even though it is mainly for war, as I stated earlier, the limitations are given to the fact that their efforts are simply not used for war-like intents simply because of a lack of a stronger centralised power. True the Empire is not the shining example of unity, but the Emperor is a figure to which they do recognise, and are thus all tied to being part of the "Empire" not to mention the threats the face that require them. But the breakthroughs were originally not something they came up with. And yeah, further development in war machinery has been something the Empire has done, I admit.

    However, I was also referring to how it would work in game for Tilea and Estalia. If with unification new units are going to come up, considering the DoW aren't the end and be all in terms of military prowess, only a few could be considered "better" simply due to experience/training regimen they had, say, like Pirazzo's Lost Legion, both factions would need to have better troops like everybody else. So usage of units that could reflect a divertion of efforts by redirecting the sceintific progress towards the military rather than simple civilian usage, I thought would have been apt for both of them.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 1,854Registered Users
    Yeah, like I said, it's mostly in the big cities, Nuln and Altdorf in particular. Mind you, centralisation can be an advantage there, particularly in a time period when long-distance communication was mostly through post (and getting the post through the Drakwald is dicey) and smoke signals: having everyone together means they can collaborate (or compete) more effectively. So having one big engineer's school in Altdorf is probably more efficient than each rival city-state having a couple of would-be inventors working alone.

    Regarding "But the breakthroughs were originally not something they came up with" - only if you consider only the most basic level (such as being introduced to the idea of gunpowder weaponry). And by that basis, the same can be true of the Southern Realms - the initial foundations of Tilean and Estalian civilisation were laid down during the War of the Ancients, with influences from the Asur and Dawi both. Every firearm west of the World's Edge Mountains, for instance, dates back to the original Karaz Ankor invention (the Dawi'Zharr and Cathayans may have discovered gunpowder independently).

    It's certainly an observation I've made that the Dogs of War are a bit lacking in potential high-tier units. However, I don't think it's reasonable to pull out a bunch of new inventions out of a hat. I'd be more inclined to look at the Regiments of Renown.
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