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Beastmen vs. Terror

ReedoReedo Posts: 37Registered Users
Hello CA and fellow TW players!

I just wanted to bring up a topic which is important to me and probably anyone who hopes to play beastmen in any serious kind of manner in MP. In my opinion, terror causing units are too good vs. the beastmen. It seems impossible to not have your army run from a fight with vampire counts or any large units within seconds. I have had many battles where my units were in the better position, almost no enemies were left but that one monster refuses to die and suddenly terror-routs all your remaining units.

I understand that somewhat weak leadership is a trademark of the beastmen, and they are supposed to run away and come back. Nevertheless, I feel like it is very hard to pull off a victory if any flying lord can instantly rout your strongest pocket of troops with a single charge. GS are in a similar position, but at least their elite infantry has immunity to psychology, which is a huge deal.

So here are some ideas on how to improve the beastmen in this respect:
1. You could obviously just give bestigor immunity to psychology, would be an easy one (however, they would probably need a slight price increase)
2. Give the majority of units just a bit more base leadership. Primal fury grants immunity to psychology, yet it is removed the instance any "attacked in the rear" + "stronger enemy nearby" penalty kicks in... which is ALWAYS the case when fighing vs monsters and flying lords in particular.
3. Make primal fury only break once the unit's leadership is wavering (to prevent aforementioned removal of the buff the second a lord lands)
4. Make the lords a little less sqishy. With the current multiplayer balance, most people opt for flying lords, one can see a lot of dragons and assassins as well. None of the beastmen lords are able to stand up to those foes (with Morghur being the only one who at least survives a few seconds) If Khazrak would just suck a little less, people might bring him, maybe some regen/physical resist/armour would be helpful. With the leadership sticking around for longer, the soldiers might not run quite as soon.
5. Maybe buff minotaurs. I never see them used in any serious match. For good reason: They do not deal more damage than centigors with great weapons do (which is fine) but they are also no more sturdy, yet cost a lot more (which is not fine) If minotaurs were a little better, maybe the beastmen could have some decent answers to large, terror causing units.

So, those are my two cents on the topic. Thanks for reading. You have created a great game and I hope to play it a lot more (also the upcoming ones, of course) so keep up the great work!

Comments

  • ReedoReedo Posts: 37Registered Users
    edited November 2017
    Just to add an example: I just played a match vs. WE. I had three pretty healthy gors surrounding a unit of WE spears on one flank. Easy fight, one would think. But then the dragon landed, that is rear-charge + monster penalty on the first unit, causing it to drop below half LS, therefore instantly terror routing. As a result, both other units get the friendly unit routing debuff, go beneath half LS and terror rout as well.

    Sorry, but that is just increadibly annoying and really unfair. If those three gors were allowed to fight, they would easily slaughter the spears AND probably kill or do a ton of damage to the dragon. Instead, they run instantly.

    I just do not know what one could do to prevent this stuff from happening. I feel like the beastmen do not have a single tool to deal with this.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,168Registered Users
    I hope when WH3 comes out beastmen will also get marks of chaos. Then you can get slaangors with immunity to psychology.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,260Registered Users
    Agreed.

    Higher base leadership or not losing primaly fury until leadership is under a certain threshold (or maybe even better, until HP is under a certain threshold).

    I personally don't like giving out too many ITP's because then it is not special. Unless there's a lore reason, I'd always go for other options and give ITP if nothing else works.
  • NaiethNaieth Posts: 231Registered Users
    Although its not quite addressing the issue head on, i'd like to see dragons be made a bit more expensive across the board.

    They are extremely impactful, with their breath attacks or terror alone doing tremendous damage. I think they could be made less efficient value for gold and they'd still see play.
    Support a third Legendary Lord for Wood Elves
  • MrMecHMrMecH Posts: 2,145Registered Users
    edited November 2017
    Minotaur's Blood Greed might increase Charge Bonus too. I also feel they cause impact less than I hope now.
    SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

  • ReedoReedo Posts: 37Registered Users
    Naieth said:

    Although its not quite addressing the issue head on, i'd like to see dragons be made a bit more expensive across the board.

    They are extremely impactful, with their breath attacks or terror alone doing tremendous damage. I think they could be made less efficient value for gold and they'd still see play.

    I think the dragons you can buy are fine. (they are pretty expansive) but the flying mounts for lords are the biggest issue. All factions that can bring one will do so, they are just increadibly good for their price. Anyways, I don't even want monsters nerfed. Just some way to deal with the terror they cause^^
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 117Registered Users
    I agree with some of this. But for me, Beastmen are probably the most competitive i can remember them.
    I'll happily play them against Dark or High elves with out feeling too disadvantaged.
    Vs WE very much comes down to build choice.
    Yes they have a problem with Terror and large armoured monsters. But some of the roster has had a decent buff.
    My advise Vs flying lords and the havoc they can cause would be -

    Keep a unit of poison warhounds prowling just behind your main melee line. It's sole purpose is to charge a flying lord when he lands and keep him grounded until support arrives.

    Also, betigors are pretty solid, but beefing up Gors with or without shield to silver or even gold chevrons really helps with the leadership problem and can be fairly cost effective with its returns.

    Hope that helps


  • ReedoReedo Posts: 37Registered Users
    Slade_X said:

    I agree with some of this. But for me, Beastmen are probably the most competitive i can remember them.
    I'll happily play them against Dark or High elves with out feeling too disadvantaged.
    Vs WE very much comes down to build choice.
    Yes they have a problem with Terror and large armoured monsters. But some of the roster has had a decent buff.
    My advise Vs flying lords and the havoc they can cause would be -

    Keep a unit of poison warhounds prowling just behind your main melee line. It's sole purpose is to charge a flying lord when he lands and keep him grounded until support arrives.

    Also, betigors are pretty solid, but beefing up Gors with or without shield to silver or even gold chevrons really helps with the leadership problem and can be fairly cost effective with its returns.

    Hope that helps


    Firstly thanks for your concern and thoughts.

    However, I did not make this post based on two unlucky games. I played probably 30-40 games with beastmen since the patch and I am not saying I don't have success at all. I just don't have success when my enemy brings a terror causing unit and knows how to use it.

    For your ideas, I have the following issues with them:
    1. Poison hounds are often the first unit to be targeted by better players and they also basically insta-rout when charged by a flying monster. I bring them in every match up, but they are certainly not the solution.

    2. Bestigors are absolutely not solid and no exception from the rest of the army. They only have 5LD more than standard Gor and run just as fast from any charging monster.

    3. Gor with silver chevrons are 800 gold. That is WAY too expansive, same price as many armoured infantry like longbeards and more expansive + a lot worse than units like white lions, and it only gives them 6LD which is still not a ton.

    Sadly none of this will change the fact that Beastmen get dumbstered by terror.
  • TlaxtlanSoothsayerTlaxtlanSoothsayer Posts: 2,322Registered Users
    Beastmen always struggled against terror and I doubt this will change anytime soon. They're a low leadership faction and are supposed to rush the enemy. You need to crush your opponent fast or your army will fall apart.

    Here are some suggestions how to deal with flying single entities like dragons or gryphons:
    • Ignore them: Let's pretend your opponent has a lord on Star Dragon (about 2500-2800 bucks); then your Beastmen army will have a lot of money left to spend on infantry+cavalry to overwhelm your enemy. Dismantle the whole enemy army and when only 1 Star Dragon is left, you can easily finish it off, as long as you have a couple of fast units left.
    • Use Centigors or Warhounds (with poison like @Slade_X suggested) to trap flying monsters. When a high value unit like a dragon is busy fighting 1 unit of Centigors and/or needs to get rid of cheap Warhounds, it can't use breath attacks or cause terror to your whole army and this maneuver will buy you some time to win the main fight. You can also sacrifice a unit of Harpies instead, they will die horribly but buy you time too.
    • Kill them: It's a similar solution to the suggestion above, keep them on the ground with fast moving units and then slay the dragon with a Gorebull + Minotaurs with greatweapons. This option is kinda expensive because of the Gorebull + Minos + hounds/Centigors. But you can also use 3 Centigors with throwing axes. They're incredibly fast, can keep flyers on the ground and will shoot dragons to pieces, while costing exactly the same as 1 Star Dragon.
    Beastmen players face more or less the same problem as in WH1, one or two units with terror can be a huge problem and route your whole army especially in the lategame.

    The difference compared to WH1 is that Centigors got cheaper and Minotaurs deal more damage in WH2. On top of that Beastmen are able to field a much stronger mainline (Gor Herds and Bestigors already have slightly more leadership and better stats) and Ungors don't cause chainroutes anymore because they're expendable. Fear also only applies a -8 leadership debuff instead of -10.

    I'm not saying it's easy, but in general it's easier to deal with terror causing units as a Beastmen player in Mortal Empires than in Warhammer1. :)
  • patlau2001patlau2001 Posts: 213Registered Users
    That's probably one of beastmen weaknesses and it probably should stay this way to be true to the lore.

    Although beastmen is so good now. They are so so so good now. Melt enemy frontline in seconds, super cheap units that are very strong. And minotaurs with their unit size increase is just obscene. If beastmen isn't weak to terror or flying units, then they will have too little weakness.

    I'm happy with where beastmen is now except I want the RoR (like now)!!
  • ReedoReedo Posts: 37Registered Users

    Beastmen always struggled against terror and I doubt this will change anytime soon. They're a low leadership faction and are supposed to rush the enemy. You need to crush your opponent fast or your army will fall apart.

    Here are some suggestions how to deal with flying single entities like dragons or gryphons:

    • Ignore them: Let's pretend your opponent has a lord on Star Dragon (about 2500-2800 bucks); then your Beastmen army will have a lot of money left to spend on infantry+cavalry to overwhelm your enemy. Dismantle the whole enemy army and when only 1 Star Dragon is left, you can easily finish it off, as long as you have a couple of fast units left.
    • Use Centigors or Warhounds (with poison like @Slade_X suggested) to trap flying monsters. When a high value unit like a dragon is busy fighting 1 unit of Centigors and/or needs to get rid of cheap Warhounds, it can't use breath attacks or cause terror to your whole army and this maneuver will buy you some time to win the main fight. You can also sacrifice a unit of Harpies instead, they will die horribly but buy you time too.
    • Kill them: It's a similar solution to the suggestion above, keep them on the ground with fast moving units and then slay the dragon with a Gorebull + Minotaurs with greatweapons. This option is kinda expensive because of the Gorebull + Minos + hounds/Centigors. But you can also use 3 Centigors with throwing axes. They're incredibly fast, can keep flyers on the ground and will shoot dragons to pieces, while costing exactly the same as 1 Star Dragon.
    Beastmen players face more or less the same problem as in WH1, one or two units with terror can be a huge problem and route your whole army especially in the lategame.

    The difference compared to WH1 is that Centigors got cheaper and Minotaurs deal more damage in WH2. On top of that Beastmen are able to field a much stronger mainline (Gor Herds and Bestigors already have slightly more leadership and better stats) and Ungors don't cause chainroutes anymore because they're expendable. Fear also only applies a -8 leadership debuff instead of -10.

    I'm not saying it's easy, but in general it's easier to deal with terror causing units as a Beastmen player in Mortal Empires than in Warhammer1. :)
    I see that there are many people who encounter tha same issues and try to deal with it.

    However, I feel like your suggestions are all pretty much nothing new or interesting.
    Ignore a dragon?! Sorry, but any kind of half-decent player will USE the dragon. There is absolutely no way I can "just" ignore it.

    Also let me make myself absolutely clear (again) that I ALWAYS bring poison hounds and am fully aware how good they are. I know how to pin down flying units. HOWEVER, all good players I encounter will just attack the hounds first with their dragons (or attack my cav with theirs and then rear-charge with the dragon) Hounds instantly break from a dragon charge, making them very unreliable as a counter-measure.

    While I agree that it is a little easier to deal with terror than it was in TWW1, there are also much more terror causing units on the field now. With the big popularity of dragons, lots of shaggoths and dinosaurs being used, there are just a ton of sources from which terror will hit you, these days.

    As for your suggestion to kill the dragons: I know of the tools to deal with monsters as well, but I am not finding them very reliable (or even good). Yes, Gorebulls are great, but they cost 1500 resources. That is basically as much as the dragon mount for lords. Minotaurs with GW suffer from terror just as bad as any unit, when they get hit by cav and rear-charged by a dragon, they run in seconds, which is very disappointing for a 1500 resource unit.

    The centigors with axes are a nice tool, IF your enemy has no archers. Otherwise they die :/
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 2,619Registered Users
    Dragon's are not particularly fast, most being 80-90 speed. You can literally sit the hounds inside/around some cheap spearmen and at least make the dragon pay for trying to take them out.
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  • MakoTheMakoMakoTheMako Posts: 1,246Registered Users

    That's probably one of beastmen weaknesses and it probably should stay this way to be true to the lore.

    Although beastmen is so good now. They are so so so good now. Melt enemy frontline in seconds, super cheap units that are very strong. And minotaurs with their unit size increase is just obscene. If beastmen isn't weak to terror or flying units, then they will have too little weakness.

    I'm happy with where beastmen is now except I want the RoR (like now)!!

    Melt enemy frontline? Who are you playing against? Nearly every other factions front line can withstand the Beastmen charge and rebuff them rather handily.

    die about it

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