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Vampire Counts and balance (Anti Large)

InfletoInfleto MemberPosts: 300Registered Users
edited November 2017 in Balancing Discussions
Vampire Counts though a top tear faction in the past, Are now in the lower- middle of the pack. In multiplayer, The community knows how to exploit the gaps in the VC unit roster. Mainly their profound weakness to single unit monsters that have AOE damage.

While other factions can range down larger targets, The main Anti Large tools the VC currently have is Blood night and the Terrorghiest. Both are easy to mitigate in multiplayer. In the case of blood Knights, Players place their monster inside a unit of anti larger infantry. (halberds like) Terrorghiest can be threatened with ranged units.

To resolve this, I would really enjoy seeing under used spell/units to step up in the VC roster.
Gaze of Nagash! Each missile could do bonus damage to large targets! Given VC excessive weakness to Monsters For this to work Gaze of Nagash would need to deal profound amounts of anti large damage (mitigating armor). Effectively 1/5th HP of a monster unit. Even more so when you take into account VC's units are priced higher for invocation use.

Additionally, Terrghiest are not fully effective in their Anti large role given their cost. I would like to see their breath spell be castable form range 150 range, and gain anti large bonus damage on the breath. Given they only have 3 cast, The breath would need 300 to 400 damage vs large to improve the spell vs some of the 4000 HP large units.
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Comments

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    What would quiet easily solve this would be the addition of an unit of Grave guards with halberds to the roster, as this was an choice on TT and would help VC out quiet a bit
  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 3,572Registered Users
    VC players complaining about blobing! LOL
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 911Registered Users
    Not every faction gets to be equally good against everything.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    Not every faction gets to be equally good against everything.

    though quiet few factions have access to large monsters. Not good doesn t mean, they should do bad inherently.

    That would be like dwarfs shouldn t be that capable of dealing with chariots because they can t do equally good against everything.

    VC should get Grave guard with halberds and maybe slight buffs and price increases to BK´s
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 911Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    Not every faction gets to be equally good against everything.

    though quiet few factions have access to large monsters. Not good doesn t mean, they should do bad inherently.

    That would be like dwarfs shouldn t be that capable of dealing with chariots because they can t do equally good against everything.

    VC should get Grave guard with halberds and maybe slight buffs and price increases to BK´s
    Dwarves ARE weak against chariots. I'm not sure I get your point. Dwarves have non-ideal solutions to chariots, like Slayers and ranged fire; similarly VC have non-ideal solutions to large monsters, like Terrorgheists, Blood Knights, and Crypt Horrors.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    They now have the tools to deal with speed properly.

    Why shouldn t VC get also some tools to deal with large targets better?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    I agree grave guard with halbards or improved anti large for terrorgheists seems sensible. Preferably terrorgheists since I like armies having some weaknesses and I think VC can use other parts of their army to handle ranged units.

    Unless ethereal cairn wraiths are somehow an answer here.

    All that said, do giants etc always trade well with regular inf (eg grave guard)? I was under the impression that they aren't all that cost effective and that their ability to induce terror and focus power in breaking one area is their strength. Which should be less of a threat to VC.

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,386Registered Users
    edited November 2017
    TG have some margin for improvement, they cost as much as a dragon, but trade evenly vs say black dragon and also have inferior breath attacks, while (unlike dragons) being pretty much unusable vs anything that's not large. They are pretty decent now, but could be better. As the only anti large flying monster they should be the go to air dominance unit, but they fail to perform this role in some MUs atm. Tempest nerf would also help a lot.

    Magic missiles are a mess to balance because as soon as they get enough damage to deal with monsters people would start to snipe lords with them, there isn't an easy solution here.

    I don't think it's reasonable to expect new units for game 1 factions any time soon. Maybe skelly spears could get like -1 dmg +1 AP dmg but imo not needed.

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    Skeletton spearmen won t be able to handle stuff like dinos or DP´s effectively.

    if the VC are an melee only army, then they should have melee options to combat everything effectifly within their own range
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,171Registered Users
    salsicha said:

    VC players complaining about blobing! LOL

    Truly laughable, couldn't agree more!
  • PrayPray Posts: 1,349Registered Users
    Why don't give AL to Crainwraith ? because people rarely pick them, this change will make them more useful but drop some stat for balance .
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,171Registered Users
    Pray said:

    Why don't give AL to Crainwraith ? because people rarely pick them, this change will make them more useful but drop some stat for balance .

    this makes sense since they are ghosts with scythes, chillgheists can too get anti-large, around 4.
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Posts: 939Registered Users
    Grave guards with Halberds
    Making the Banshee anti-large-armour? With her screech.
    Other than that there isn't much going for them.

    The thing with VC is they are made rather trash, with poor stats even in melee when they're melee only, so even their elite units have a hard time HITTING stuff in melee. VC units ahve been made, in this game, very poor combatants because they can be resurected, but at the same time VC do'nt really have more winds of magic than other faction to fill that, and while you can have lots of regen, it kinda sucks.

    The VC's best way to deal with monsters is kind of like you're supposed to play them on the tabletop to be honest: Bring enough vampires to deal with the dangerous stuff, a couple necros to make your hordes survive, but otherwise just outnumber with hordes of cheap trash. Take a truckload of skeletons with spears, a bunch of heroes, and some dire wolves to run down the ones that run away and their artillery...
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 445Registered Users
    "TG have some margin for improvement, they cost as much as a dragon, but trade evenly vs say black dragon and also have inferior breath attacks, while (unlike dragons) being pretty much unusable vs anything that's not large"

    Well, they do have regen, which is overlooked by many, but it can save VC player in attrition fight and overall is a good bonus. As WE I've learned that you either kill TG outright without giving him a chance to escape or you try to ignore/kite/screen him while going for better targets. Otherwise you can find yourself in situation where you watch in horror as TG regains lost HP away from the battle and after some time engages you again.
  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 3,572Registered Users
    Infleto said:

    While other factions can range down larger targets, The main Anti Large tools the VC currently have is Blood night and the Terrorghiest. Both are easy to mitigate in multiplayer. In the case of blood Knights, Players place their monster inside a unit of anti larger infantry. (halberds like)

    Deuzerre said:

    Grave guards with Halberds
    Making the Banshee anti-large-armour? With her screech.
    Other than that there isn't much going for them.

    How is making Cairn Wraiths anti-large or giving VC Grave Guards with Halberds going to help them kill Halberds units???
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,885Registered Users
    Im against Cairn Wraiths getting anti large but GG with halberds is a good idea, what could be the draw back? If they become too good than just nerf their stats and in turn if VC start picking many anti large units they be less effective vs infantry thous causing them to take balance armies and their opponents also.

    The only thing i would say is to balance them so they only stronger than other GG against large and not the perfect all round unit like Phenix Guard are now.
  • RandomTagRandomTag Posts: 1,479Registered Users
    Bring Grave Guard with Halberd back would be a good idea at least.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,793Registered Users
    @Infleto
    >To resolve this, I would really enjoy seeing under used spell/units to step up in the VC roster.
    That would be good.
    >Gaze of Nagash! Each missile could do bonus damage to large targets!
    As far as I know (according to info-sites) it already has anti-large bonus if nothing was changed. It's output is just too weak for its WoM cost especially for VC.
    My main concern about this still the same - how it could be effective but not against weak Lords/Heroes, so it won't one-shot them, while keep it accurate and cost-effective against units with single Large models, especially high-armored?
    Maybe it should have way cheaper WoM cost, AP/Anti-large oriented damage but shouldn't deal too much damage per shot. Less like Luminark - more like Arrow of Kurnous or Bastilodon missiles.
    >Terrghiest are not fully effective in their Anti large role given their cost.
    Terrorgheist need cost reduction in current balance system, imo. I would orientate on Forest Dragon in that case (with taking into account that VC don't have missile ground support for it). Meanwhile, I don't think that Terrorgheist should be ground support oriented unit. Air oriented monster would be better.
    >and gain anti large bonus damage on the breath
    I thought it already had. It deals some damage in general, but won't even compare it to dragon breath attacks, even if we take into account that Dragon breath attacks probably overperform in current state. Though, I heard that IndyPride did test it against Demis and dealt significant damage (maybe that's because Demis are weak now).

    >While other factions can range down larger targets
    And use nets if unit fleeing being on the ground or pin down one and break formation/charge etc. I guess in that case Chilling Aura of Chillgheists could be a thing, but taking it just for such purpose kinda expensive and leaving them in combat with really dangerous Large units doesn't seem like a good idea.
    >Players place their monster inside a unit of anti larger infantry.
    Yeah, basically Horrors+fodder or Dragon Ogres+Chaos Warriors with Halberds (which was quite painful for VC and cost-effective for Chaos). To counter this improvement to Sun of Xereus or Pit of Shades could be handy (with cost reduction for Vampire with Lore of Shadows), either buff to same Gaze of Nagash.
    >Terrorghiest can be threatened with ranged units.
    Especially with net support and other stuff. I wonder, if VC could get Tormentor Sword for some Lord/hero. But problem would be that it work against all targets while VC mostly need to shut down Large single model units and Developers won't probably make special version for VC. Or that could be provided with Fell Bats summon ability for air, while on ground they could technically use same Chillgheists or try to summon Horrors to cut unit from being able to retreat. But that's a bit off-topic.

    TeNoSkill said:

    What would quiet easily solve this would be the addition of an unit of Grave guards with halberds to the roster, as this was an choice on TT and would help VC out quiet a bit

    This would be definitely nice for VC, especially if to count that they lack of at least 2 units in their army roster, if to compare them to Empire/Chaos(with RoR), but I'm not sure if it would solve problem, since this would help in infantry line engagement mostly (where VC could attack with actual units+ often summon some zombies to break morale of infantry units or absorb damage/distract unit) or in protection your own Large from other Large, but not that good in distant engagements.
    But I don't know how well it would address problem with infantry (halberds)+Large unit. and I'm not sure neither about its release, neither about quality of such unit. It could be same poor Grave Guard with Great Weapons unit with nearly same cost, but with Halberds, which is debatable thing. But its all up to Devs.
    I also thought about something like undead Skin Wolves: it would be thematic but not TT/Lore-friendly. Could be AP-Anti-large something like Horrors but with better speed and without Poison/Regen. Could be used with Dire Wolves to absorb damage.


    @eumaies
    >All that said, do giants etc always trade well with regular inf (eg grave guard)
    Under fodder infantry protection they were very good. Don't know about game 2 but in game 1 I felt that they were quite cost-effective. Of course, if you don't send them fight Spearmen.


    @MadDemiurg
    >As the only anti large flying monster they should be the go to air dominance unit, but they fail to perform this role in some MUs atm. Tempest nerf would also help a lot.
    I thought that small buff/cost decrease for Fell Bats + cost decrease/buff for Terror could finally return VC ability to fight for flying superiority against other flying factions.
    ----
    Skeleton Spearmen could get cost reduction around -10-15 gold. I think it would be enough, for both things: make them more accessible for VC but keep them in category of more expensive VC Anti-Large options without conflicting with Skeleton Warriors.


    @Pray
    I thought about that but more about Hex Wraiths, like swapping Anti-Large and Chilling Aura between Dire Pack and Chillgheists. But that is probably against their concept which even shown in Chillgheists name.
    Meanwhile, simple nerf to some stats and replacing them with anti-large could be a thing.
    Especially with what DandalusXVII said :+4 (maybe +6) anti-large.
    I also thought about giving anti-large or AP to Vargheists as an exchange for something as another alternative idea.
    Or making Blood Knights actually more tanky/AP/elite instead of current CB/non-ap/strong orientation, basically something like Demis with Halberds.
    Or making Varghulf less Chariot-like and more tankier while giving it anti-large bonus. But again, I'm not sure if it follows concept of unit in devs perspective and TT.


    @Deuzerre
    >Making the Banshee anti-large-armour? With her screech.
    That's another quite interesting concept for this breath attack.

    >The VC's best way to deal with monsters is kind of like you're supposed to play them on the tabletop to be honest:
    Well, in that case their low-tier units like Zombies/Skeleton/Spearmen/Ghouls/Fell Bats/Dire Wolves/Black Knights should be more cheaper and slightly stronger. Or maybe they should just get some WoM cost reduction for Nehek/bigger HP buff per spell or get back their cheaper summons aka 2 WoM for Zombies, 3 for Skeletons (maybe with bigger cooldown). But in that case they would be less tactical and strategic and more about swarming their enemy, instead of making them stronger through more viable and versatile roster. It doesn't seem nice for strategic game and for VC which are already seem poor on tactical/strategic actions due to lack of ranged and being binded to healing.


    @Zeblasky
    Or it could be healed with Nehek. I mean, if you have chance to kill VC unit - it's better to kill it anyway. Fully and finally dead unit couldn't heal and resurrect models. Imo, regen without extra sources is not that big a deal for VC, but still a nice thing. Problem with Terrogheist is that it has bad morale, so it would crumble if focused which means regen would work more like small damage absorber for crumbling in most situations.


    @salsicha
    I guess, thread turned into general discussion about VC problems with Large units. But I would agree that Halberds probably won't save in such situation and same Ghouls/Cairn Wraiths+summons in rear could be more effective to get rid of infantry and then get to Large target. As for this situation, Gaze of Nagash and Terrorgheist breath buffs could be a thing if to give opportunity to concentrate on main target first instead of grinding through infantry.


    @Lotus_Moon
    Do you think that if Cairn Wraiths get Anti-large it could cause some troubles even if they would be nerfed a bit? The only thing I can think about as probably serious improvement (even though, not sure) that they could deal more handy with some units with physical resistance like Trees or deal damage to other cav+terrorize them. Not sure if it would help to deal with Large single model units, though (but same with Halberds).
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,885Registered Users
    Yes i do, they would become very good vs factions like greenskins and beastman, they could suddenly deal with all threats and not be infantry centered.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 2,617Registered Users
    Well there's several things that could give vampire counts some new tools.

    Banshees need a scream.

    Vampire characters are super weak compared to their tabletop representation.

    Curse of years and Gaze of Nagash are worthless spells in an army where spells are among some of their only ranged damage dealing options.

    The black Coach is still awful.

    Vargheists are still mediocre and will always be so until they're given armor piercing. Seriously, look at the buffs that trolls and chaos spawn got to their damage, but vargheists are still doing the mediocre 100 damage they always did and they're... still mediocre. You can't have a glass cannon unit that doesn't actually beat armored units unless it has utility.

    Dire wolves are more expensive than all other versions of hounds and are worse. I mean fear is great but it's VASTLY superior to to have bad leadership and route than have bad leadership and crumble to dust. You can get 2-3 charges out of most types of hounds or goblin wolf riders. Dire Wolves disintegrate once and are gone.

    Ghorst is a useless lord choice.

    I think zombies cost too much at 150. With peasant move and skaven slaves in the game, 23 speed zombies never have a place in the roster and it is always better to summon them.



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  • CA_AtoCA_Ato The Creative Assembly Posts: 700Registered Users, Moderators, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff
    Terrorgheist scream attack will become a bit more potent against large targets.
    Vargheists are candidates for a buff, possibly AP, but not to the point that they become an armour piercing unit.

    That said, the theory that VC struggle against factions with a lot of strong single monsters does not appear to be true for all players. In terms of QB results, they struggle most against Dwarfs, while being fairly even against Lizardmen for example. Monsters will exhaust quicker than chaff and will then be vulnerable to a number of VC units. I agree that it's more difficult than having a cheap AP anti-L unit in the army, but players are finding other tools against monsters.

    As always, I'm not saying VC don't need more tweaks, but you might want to investigate this faction from different angles.

    KR, A
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    for now imo if overall balance goes its a matter if top factions are going down then no need to buff vamps,but changes to internal balnace roster is still ended(that includes buff to both terrorgheits,vargheists or nerf to mortis engine mostly engaged in melele condition )

    Balance Is A Lie

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    Dwarves are the best faction to counter the VC's best tool : fear and terror.

    That said, a lot of factions have access to monsters and VC's anti large options are

    a)expensive or
    b) too bad to do work quickly enough.

    While VC need tweaks of course, they are the only faction missing an anti large AP infantry unit to combat monsters and cav more effective.

    Mind you, that they don t have this option as an melee only faction!
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,171Registered Users
    There are no gg halberd in tt for many editions, there were on 3rd but got removed, so forget it.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,885Registered Users

    There are no gg halberd in tt for many editions, there were on 3rd but got removed, so forget it.

    Foot squires.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    CA_Ato said:

    Terrorgheist scream attack will become a bit more potent against large targets.
    Vargheists are candidates for a buff, possibly AP, but not to the point that they become an armour piercing unit.

    That said, the theory that VC struggle against factions with a lot of strong single monsters does not appear to be true for all players. In terms of QB results, they struggle most against Dwarfs, while being fairly even against Lizardmen for example. Monsters will exhaust quicker than chaff and will then be vulnerable to a number of VC units. I agree that it's more difficult than having a cheap AP anti-L unit in the army, but players are finding other tools against monsters.

    As always, I'm not saying VC don't need more tweaks, but you might want to investigate this faction from different angles.

    KR, A

    That sounds about right.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    There are no gg halberd in tt for many editions, there were on 3rd but got removed, so forget it.

    Does sound like an legit addition tho co sidering CW's have also 3 variants
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    There are no gg halberd in tt for many editions, there were on 3rd but got removed, so forget it.

    Does sound like an legit addition tho co sidering CW's have also 3 variants
    Yeah but that's part of chaos strength - versatility in lots of infantry variants. It's a better game when not everyone has every useful variant.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,171Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    There are no gg halberd in tt for many editions, there were on 3rd but got removed, so forget it.

    Does sound like an legit addition tho co sidering CW's have also 3 variants
    CW on tt have halberds.
  • InfletoInfleto Member Posts: 300Registered Users
    CA_Ato said:

    Terrorgheist scream attack will become a bit more potent against large targets.
    Vargheists are candidates for a buff, possibly AP, but not to the point that they become an armour piercing unit.

    That said, the theory that VC struggle against factions with a lot of strong single monsters does not appear to be true for all players. In terms of QB results, they struggle most against Dwarfs, while being fairly even against Lizardmen for example. Monsters will exhaust quicker than chaff and will then be vulnerable to a number of VC units. I agree that it's more difficult than having a cheap AP anti-L unit in the army, but players are finding other tools against monsters.

    As always, I'm not saying VC don't need more tweaks, but you might want to investigate this faction from different angles.

    KR, A

    "theory that VC struggle against factions with a lot of strong single monsters "
    That is not the theory we are talking about. We are talking about VC struggling against strong Single monsters.
    A QB player of a faction who has single unit monsters that elects not to take them.... Is not what we are talking about.


    So please tell use what are the units you are talking about that the VC have which larger monsters are oh so vulnerable too? What do the VC's have that is actually cost effective when not looked at in just a vacuum?
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